Question on abortion

  • GoodPup

    Posts: 752

    May 10, 2009 12:41 AM GMT
    A friend and I were just having a little debate about abortion, reasons why women have them, and stuff like that. Since it is pretty much all dudes here, and hopefully fewer people emotionally attached to the subject than if women were around, so I am curious...

    Do any of you genuinely know of a specific person that has had an abortion because she was raped and became pregnant? Or had to have an abortion for a medical reason? Or is it typically just used as birth control?

    I have a friend from high school that was raped and is now raising the child with her parents. And that is how the subject came up. Every abortion that I know of has been cause they didn't use a condom and were either too young or married to someone else.
  • coolarmydude

    Posts: 9190

    May 10, 2009 12:54 AM GMT
    A good friend of mine became pregnant in 1994 and she came to me first because the doctor's determined she had endometriosis. The docs stated to her that her pregnancy was at risk and that the longer her pregnancy lasted, the higher the risk to her life. She was terrified. She didn't want to have an abortion, she didn't want to lose the baby, and she certainly didn't want to die. I told her that first and foremost, she needs to protect herself and that she should follow the pregnancy closely and decided on what to do next, day by day. A few weeks later, the docs determined that her pregnancy was not at risk and that she did not have endometriosis. Her daughter is now 14 and they will be visiting me for Memorial Day weekend.
  • calibro

    Posts: 8888

    May 10, 2009 12:55 AM GMT
    I do know of people who had them because of rape or medical conditions, and you might too, since it's not something people advertise.

    Regardless, I don't think the justification matters and implying abortion is a form of birth control oversimplifies the matter. They're never easy to have performed, and it's not something as minute as putting on a condom or taking the bill. It's a painful, hard decision.
  • GoodPup

    Posts: 752

    May 10, 2009 1:03 AM GMT
    calibro saidI do know of people who had them because of rape or medical conditions, and you might too, since it's not something people advertise.

    Regardless, I don't think the justification matters and implying abortion is a form of birth control oversimplifies the matter. They're never easy to have performed, and it's not something as minute as putting on a condom or taking the bill. It's a painful, hard decision.


    I understand that it can be a huge decision and not something people take lightly... and yeah, probably many have had it for reasons I am not aware. That is a good point. But don't you agree that it is, more often than not, used as an after thought for birth control or covering up a mistake?
  • EricLA

    Posts: 3461

    May 10, 2009 1:04 AM GMT
    I'm sure a vast majority of abortions are for birth control and not because of health reasons or rape, etc. But, beyond that what's your point? Do I wish this were not the case? Sure. I think people should be more responsible. If a woman has one abortion in their life, it's too many. If they have had multiple abortions, I'm really sorry for them. But, does that mean we should take abortion away? Limit it in some way? The answer is a resounding no. Women should have the right to control their own bodies.

    Let's put the shoe on the other foot. What if men were the ones who got pregnant. Do you think this would be the discussion it is? I sincerely doubt it.
  • coolarmydude

    Posts: 9190

    May 10, 2009 1:05 AM GMT
    I studied a little bit on American attitudes on abortion and found that over 80% of Americans support abortion in at least one or a few circumstances.

    About 10% support full on abortion rights

    About 10% support full on abortion restrictions

    most people support abortion for situations of rape or incest

    Other situations include, but not limited to:

    poverty

    dangerous environment for raising a child

    parental age (too young)

    accidental pregnancy

    drug addiction

    prostitution

    detection of medical problem in the fetus

    genetic predispositions

    Basically, people are more sympathetic to abortion cases where behavior is not a factor.





  • GoodPup

    Posts: 752

    May 10, 2009 1:08 AM GMT
    EricLA saidLet's put the shoe on the other foot. What if men were the ones who got pregnant. Do you think this would be the discussion it is? I sincerely doubt it.


    Okay... so that got me thinking too. Lets say that we didn;t have to use protection. And IF someone became HIV positive, they could have a procedure to undo it. Do you think guys would use protection as often? Or would they hope they didn't get the disease and if they did just go get it removed?

    Maybe a bad example. But I think if women knew they were stuck with their decision they would maybe think a little more about using protection.
  • EricLA

    Posts: 3461

    May 10, 2009 1:14 AM GMT
    JaseinOC said
    EricLA saidLet's put the shoe on the other foot. What if men were the ones who got pregnant. Do you think this would be the discussion it is? I sincerely doubt it.


    Okay... so that got me thinking too. Lets say that we didn;t have to use protection. And IF someone became HIV positive, they could have a procedure to undo it. Do you think guys would use protection as often? Or would they hope they didn't get the disease and if they did just go get it removed?

    Maybe a bad example. But I think if women knew they were stuck with their decision they would maybe think a little more about using protection.


    Of course not. Already there is regimen one can use sort of like a morning after pill for HIV. It's controversial, and I think it's efficacy is still not proven. But, sure, guys already take their chances. They'd give up condoms the first chance if there was a way to get of HIV if they contracted it.

    There's a lot of irresponsibility out there, no question. Barebacking and other unsafe behaviors are on the rise. And some people like to take a risk and think the odds are on their side. Nothing new about that, it's human nature, unfortunately.
  • GoodPup

    Posts: 752

    May 10, 2009 1:15 AM GMT
    coolarmydude saidI studied a little bit on American attitudes on abortion and found that over 80% of Americans support abortion in at least one or a few circumstances.

    About 10% support full on abortion rights

    About 10% support full on abortion restrictions

    most people support abortion for situations of rape or incest

    Other situations include, but not limited to:

    poverty

    dangerous environment for raising a child

    parental age (too young)

    accidental pregnancy

    drug addiction

    prostitution

    detection of medical problem in the fetus

    genetic predispositions

    Basically, people are more sympathetic to abortion cases where behavior is not a factor.


    I would agree with that. I think my anti-abortion stance is mostly because people are not using it for valid reasons like making a mistake or covering one up. I know... those may be valid reasons to others. But I think having such a good relationship with my nephew that was conceived when my sister was 15, and having a friend that has a baby that she loves from being raped by a stranger... then having my dad that had 2 whores get abortions to hide his cheating.... maybe why my opinion is skewed. haha!
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    May 10, 2009 1:17 AM GMT
    I know people who have had abortions. The experience is both physically painful and emotionally traumatic.

    And what our assumptions about rape need to be thrown out. So many people are raped and do not report it either because they know the rapist, the situation was ambiguous, or they fear the shame of it.
  • coolarmydude

    Posts: 9190

    May 10, 2009 1:17 AM GMT
    JaseinOC said. "I think if women knew they were stuck with their decision they would maybe think a little more about using protection."


    Please Mister Rapist! Please take the time to put a condom on!

    The issue of abortion is not as black and white as you see it. It's not as convenient as you think it is.
  • GoodPup

    Posts: 752

    May 10, 2009 1:21 AM GMT
    coolarmydude saidJaseinOC said. "I think if women knew they were stuck with their decision they would maybe think a little more about using protection."


    Please Mister Rapist! Please take the time to put a condom on!

    The issue of abortion is not as black and white as you see it. It's not as convenient as you think it is.


    HAHAHA! Not what I am saying... that is one of the extreme and very rare situations where I think it would be justified to terminate. But teens and young adults that abuse their right to abort just to fix their mistake... that is where I see a problem and why anti-abortion people have problems too.
    You did make me laugh out loud though. :-)
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    May 10, 2009 1:47 AM GMT
    My first wife had an abortion when we lived in Germany. She was a US Army Lieutenant, I was a Captain, and the pregnancy wasn't planned. She didn't want a child to derail her career, so the abortion was for convenience, not medical necessity, plus I think she was afraid the baby wasn't mine.

    I knew she'd already had a previous affair with another guy while we were married, and I suspected she was cheating on me once again at that time, which later proved to be true by her own admission. I'll never know if I was the father of that child she aborted, but my doubt was sufficient that I didn't object when she decided to have the procedure.

    I've had my ups and downs with gay men, but none were ever as treacherous & hurtful as the women I've known. I'm glad I no longer deal with them emotionally, nor with their issues of abortion or anything else.
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    May 10, 2009 1:49 AM GMT
    JaseinOC said
    coolarmydude saidJaseinOC said. "I think if women knew they were stuck with their decision they would maybe think a little more about using protection."


    Please Mister Rapist! Please take the time to put a condom on!

    The issue of abortion is not as black and white as you see it. It's not as convenient as you think it is.


    HAHAHA! Not what I am saying... that is one of the extreme and very rare situations where I think it would be justified to terminate. But teens and young adults that abuse their right to abort just to fix their mistake... that is where I see a problem and why anti-abortion people have problems too.
    You did make me laugh out loud though. :-)


    Even if that were the case, why is there a problem?
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    May 10, 2009 2:19 AM GMT
    I remember when I was in high school (not the dark ages..LOL), we always knew that a girl was pregnant when she was absent from school and didnt come back until the next year. If she came back very soon and tongues started wagging, it eventually would come out that the girl had an abortion. For me personally, I can understand the trauma someone goes through when making this decision. But all too often, the father's of these pregnancies are never involved and even as teens, these boys should be if for no other reason than to emotionally go through the consequences that the girl is going to go through.

    I will always fall to Pro-Choice politically because the issue is clearly not black and white and all the necessary parties are hardly ever involved (mothers and fathers & their parents). Personally, though, I feel that an abortion should only occur when the mother's life is in danger and either the child or the mother would die if the pregnancy goes to full term or if the woman is raped. It is a very traumatic experience for those involved and the trauma can have a lasting effect.
  • barriehomeboy

    Posts: 2475

    May 10, 2009 2:25 AM GMT
    I'm a pro-life abortionist. I believe a woman has a right to chose to give birth. I also believe the fetus is alive way before birth, and that abortion is murder. I don't know what the right answer is. I think we have to let people in that position make peace with their own god and make a decision they can live life and go to their grave with.
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    May 10, 2009 2:38 AM GMT



    EricLA makes this excellent point:

    "Let's put the shoe on the other foot. What if men were the ones who got pregnant? Do you think this would be the discussion it is? I sincerely doubt it."


    ...we'll add to that - there would be abortion clinics on every street corner. There would be more ads for the morning after pill than for erectile dysfunction.
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    May 10, 2009 3:25 AM GMT
    MunchingZombie saidThe experience is both physically painful and emotionally traumatic.

    Our sophomore year in high school was dedicated (and still is) to pure service. One day a week for 4 hours you did work either in a homeless shelter, half-way house, shelter for abused women, tutored people in English, or got sent to the recovery home for women suffering from the almost infinite list of abortion side-effects. I watched a woman, a nice woman, cry out on her death bed for her lost children. I don't know her story but I do have a view on abortion that is bitter. Plus I have 4 adorable babies but that doesn't answer any question nor say anything other than my experiences.
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    May 10, 2009 3:30 AM GMT
    I have never had need for an abortion myself, but I can't use that to deny it to someone else.
  • GoodPup

    Posts: 752

    May 10, 2009 3:35 AM GMT
    MunchingZombie said

    "HAHAHA! Not what I am saying... that is one of the extreme and very rare situations where I think it would be justified to terminate. But teens and young adults that abuse their right to abort just to fix their mistake... that is where I see a problem and why anti-abortion people have problems too.
    You did make me laugh out loud though."

    Even if that were the case, why is there a problem?


    I just think if terminating a pregnancy was not an option with the exception of rape or a medical reason, there would be a lot more young and unmarried people using condoms and a lot less abortions that are even necessary. They have the option, so they are using it in place of birth control. Take the option away and they will be much more careful.

    Like I was saying earlier, with HIV... we don't have the option to get rid of it once we got it, so we use protection and hopefully prevent it. Not to compare a baby to a disease... but if there wasn't an option I think a lot more people would be a lot more careful.
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    May 10, 2009 3:53 AM GMT
    I figure that abortion is none of my business. I'll never have to pay to raise a kid. I'll never have to put my career or education on hold for a few years. I'll never have to pay child support.

    I do think it's naive to think that people use abortions as birth control simply because it's an option. There's not a person on this planet who hasn't done something stupid. Sometimes we get away with it, sometimes we're fucked.

    What might be worth investigating is how many women have multiple abortions. I suspect those stats will be pretty low.
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    May 10, 2009 4:01 AM GMT
    JaseinOC saidI just think if terminating a pregnancy was not an option with the exception of rape or a medical reason, there would be a lot more young and unmarried people using condoms and a lot less abortions that are even necessary. They have the option, so they are using it in place of birth control. Take the option away and they will be much more careful.

    Like I was saying earlier, with HIV... we don't have the option to get rid of it once we got it, so we use protection and hopefully prevent it. Not to compare a baby to a disease... but if there wasn't an option I think a lot more people would be a lot more careful.


    And yet back alley abortions happened all the time before Roe V Wade. They were much more dangerous and resulted in a lot more needless death. And still, your assertion about abortion as a means of birth control has yet to be quantified. I think to have a meaningful discussion we need to have our facts straight. Do people use it as a means of birth control? Sure, but is it a significant portion of the population?

    To follow your analogy of HIV, people know damn well that condoms prevent transmission and yet people are getting infected every day.
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    May 10, 2009 4:28 AM GMT
    I watched a PBS special on this and in the US abortions are not readily available to a lot of women.

    In Kentucky, there are only 3 places in the entire state that will perform abortions. In Mississippi there are only 2 places; North Dakota has only 1. 87% of counties in the US do not have any facilities that will perform abortions.

    http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/4000608.pdf

  • calibro

    Posts: 8888

    May 10, 2009 4:40 AM GMT
    It doesn't really matter if it's a personal or health issue or whatever... when you're a woman and you're pregnant, you are put in the position of having to have a baby. Having that baby is then your choice. It doesn't matter if it's because of finances, age, whatever... the point is a woman has a right to decide if she wants to be pregnant. Understand? The physicality, emotion, and mental factors of being pregnant cannot be thrust upon a woman who does not want to endure them. I cringe personally at the idea of abortions, because I do respect all life, but I understand that a woman decides that state of being. After all, what would I or you know about any woman's body, much less her capacity for taking care of a child.
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    May 10, 2009 4:54 AM GMT
    calibro saidUnderstand?

    Stop your self-righteous patronization.