The price of fitting in.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 27, 2009 6:10 PM GMT
    I know this probably wont be popular or even speak to a lot of you, especially with he recent ruling in CA, but it’s okay to disagree every now and then.
    I went to a neighborhood BBQ last weekend. It was full of gay couples (one was even married), straight couples, a million kids and dogs, potato salad and hot dogs with white buns and only ketchup. Everyone was all passive aggressive but trying to seem so forward thinking. I asked my friend," is this what we fought for and what we continue to fight for? To have a place at the neighborhood BBQ?" sigh, it's just all soooo mediocre and ordinary.
    I have been to a billion brunches thrown by gays over the years and this couldn't hold a candle. Even Rachel Ray and her boring ass "entree-tizers" would have seemed exotic. Where were the lanterns in the trees? the tableclothes? grey goose , thyme and fresh squeezed lemonade martinis? morroccan side dishes? (I am exaggerating to make a point)
    Instead I was pumping lite beer out of a keg in the garage and trying to keep a large dog from lapping up my watery coleslaw while holding hands with a dirty 3 year old. For the first time it dawned on me the price of selling out the gay ghetto's for Anthropologie and Pottery Barn and it was just sad. Not bittersweet, but sad.
    Instead of a gay coffee shop, there is now a Starbucks. Instead of the gay bookstore there is Barnes and Noble. Yeah, it makes the property more valuable, be we have lost all of the dancers, artists, actors who can’t afford such high rent and who made the neighborhoods “valuable”.

    The more accepted we become, the more we abandon what made us unique and punk and on the fringe to begin with. We seem to be gutting everything just to build the perfect facade and that's stupid. Remember when everyone came to us for inspiration?
    It seems that unless you can pass as straight, or have the body of an athlete, or dispute the existance of God, etc., you are worthless to the cause. Who the fuck decided what the modern gay is “supposed” to look and act like. What happened to Harvey Milk and the excitement of being different, gay sex and gay culture? So much of it was lost in the advent of AIDS and the subsequent fear and somewhere along the lines we have lost an identity that no one has even bothered to teach us. Our history is so overlooked that many think gay culture doesn't even exist. sad.
    Yes, of course, I want equal rights under the law but I am not willing to sell everything else out just to "belong". I hope we take a lesson from previous civil and sexual rights battles and not lose who we are just to assimilate.

    Somewhere along the line somebody convinced us that the gay lifestyle was dark, devious, diseased, sinful and we unfortanetly believed them so we sneak around, disparage anyone that’s too gay and rally around politicians who could give two shits about us but feed us love we are craving from the straight world. (that's an entirely different ball of yarn)
    I for one, am ready for a rule change. For me that means looking backwards and once again supporting gay businesses, gay politicians, gay musicians, gay neighborhoods, gay caberets and gay charities instead of holding on to the belief that the more I avoid subversive culture, the more I will belong and the happier I will be.
  • Timbales

    Posts: 13993

    May 27, 2009 6:12 PM GMT
    You choose what you abandon, I don't choose it for you.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 27, 2009 6:30 PM GMT
    Well, that's just kind of reality for a lot of us. A big fabulous gay neighborhood isn't a reality for the majority of gay people in the World. There are areas in my city that are popular with the gay demographic. However, we still have to intergrate ourselves into society whereas someone who works, lives, and only deals with gay business I think is living in a coccoon and shutting themselves away from the society that they want to be accepted in. Yes support our own, but only if they really are the best person to do the job.

  • kaccioto

    Posts: 284

    May 27, 2009 6:57 PM GMT
    'my independence is because they didn't accept me. so every step of the way i've made more money.'

    who said it?? winner gets nothing.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 27, 2009 7:01 PM GMT
    kaccioto said'my independence is because they didn't accept me. so every step of the way i've made more money.'

    who said it?? winner gets nothing.

    Russell Simmons
  • kaccioto

    Posts: 284

    May 27, 2009 7:06 PM GMT
    damn you google
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 27, 2009 7:08 PM GMT
    mnjock2003 saidI know this probably wont be popular or even speak to a lot of you, especially with he recent ruling in CA, but it’s okay to disagree every now and then.
    I went to a neighborhood BBQ last weekend. It was full of gay couples (one was even married), straight couples, a million kids and dogs, potato salad and hot dogs with white buns and only ketchup. Everyone was all passive aggressive but trying to seem so forward thinking. And I said to my friend, is this what we fought for and what we continue to fight for? To have a place at the neighborhood BBQ? sigh, it's just all soooo mediocre and ordinary. I have been to a billion fabulous brunches thrown by gays over the years and this couldn't hold a candle. Even Rachel Ray and her boring ass food would have seemed exotic. Where were the lanterns in the trees? the tableclothes? grey goose , thyme and fresh squeezed lemonade martinis? morroccan side dishes? instead I was pumping beer out of a keg in the garage and trying to keep a large dog from taking my colslaw while holding hands with a 3 year old. For the first time it dawned on me the price of selling out the gay ghetto's for Anthropologie and Pottery Barn and it was just sad. Not bittersweet, but sad. Instead of a gay coffee shop, there is now a Starbucks. Instead of the gay bookstore there is Barnes and Noble. Yeah, it makes the property more valuable, be we have lost all of the dancers, artists, actors who can’t afford such high rent and who made the neighborhoods “valuable”. We had what the suburbs could never have because we were gay men and women and we were on our own and we acted like neighbors. Even gay pride parades now have floats sponsored by Target. The more accepted we become, the more we abandon what made us unique and punk and on the fringe to begin with.The electricity fades. We seem to be gutting everything just to build the perfect facade and that's stupid.
    It seems that unless you can pass as straight, or have the body of an athlete, or dispute the existance of God, blah blah, you are worthless to the cause. Who the fuck decided what the modern gay is “supposed” to look and act like. What happened to Harvey Milk and the excitement of being different, gay sex and gay culture? So much of it was lost in the advent of AIDS and the subsequent fear and somewhere along the lines we have lost an identity that noone has even bothered to teach us.
    Yes, of course, I want equal rights under the law but I am not willing to sell everything else out just to "belong". I hope we take a lesson from previous civil and sexual rights battles and not lose who we are just to assimilate.

    Somewhere along the line somebody convinced us that the gay lifestyle was dark, devious, diseased, sinful and we unfortanetly believed them so we sneak around, disparage anyone that’s too gay and rally around politicians who could give two shits about us but feed us love we are craving from the straight world. (that's an entirely different ball of yarn)
    I for one, am ready for a rule change. For me that means looking backwards and once again supporting gay businesses, gay politicians, gay musicians, gay neighborhoods, gay caberets and gay charities instead of holding on to the belief that the more I avoid subversive culture, the more I will belong and the happier I will be.




    Yesterday, I felt this and I still do. When the prop ruling came out It seemed that all the gay communities could/can/would do anything to try to sell out with it. Most seemly try to blend more and be accepted. They want to be validated as a human being. That's OK! I don't need to do that to have my ideas and MY LIFE.........

    Well, with that in mind...I am not going to (change who I am). I do not act overtly gay. I am just me. I live in a very "str8" community and it's not easy for me. I like the cultures of so many gay type ghettoes. I go to HILLCREST often just to escape my world. However, I figured I would provoke...like I always have and still do. Since we can not have things our way....I can have them my way.

    I put on my nice white semi-see through gym shorts (I mean these are Adidas) Then a tight light skin tight babe blue tank top.....NO UNDERWEAR....just free ballin with my quick silver bb hat and flip flops..... Walked in the health food (sprouts---like wholefoods) store all tan and ....BAD ASS...shopped around and realized, I that I can and will still be my creative, eccentric and artistic self. I am a gay business owner and my community knows I can do so many things. So Just be you and fuck em!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 27, 2009 7:12 PM GMT
    Runninchlt said However, we still have to intergrate ourselves into society whereas someone who works, lives, and only deals with gay business I think is living in a coccoon and shutting themselves away from the society that they want to be accepted in. Yes support our own, but only if they really are the best person to do the job.


    It's MY political reaction to everyone else waving my rights in front of my face as if they are something to toy with or negotiate. My stance is that I don't need or even want to be accepted by people who think my lifestyle is better left unspoken, but I deserve the same human rights as anyone else.

    Have you noticed how much dissent assimilating has caused within the gay community? We all want to blame someone for why we don't "fit in" instead of accepting the fact that we are different. Fighting for equal rights is not the same as fighting to be a part of the status quo. If we continue to obliterate gay culture just to fit in, there isn't much of a prize when we cross the finish line. If you can cross with your dignity in tact and without destroying each other with petty insults, then we can be proud of ourselves.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 27, 2009 7:28 PM GMT
    It's going to be a long fight....
  • kaccioto

    Posts: 284

    May 27, 2009 7:29 PM GMT
    they'll overturn the ban, and overturn it again to provide media filler along with susan boyle to let the nation forget what's REALLY important

    what's the benefit of gay marriage when you can't keep what you and hubby work so hard for?

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124338836675757049.html

    gotta love this country

    used as a distraction...gullible fags, we are
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 27, 2009 9:17 PM GMT
    and who is to say this is wrong. For me personally, I dont seek out "gay culture". My boyfriend and I do the stuff we like...movies, beach, outdoors, gambling, restaraunts, comic conventions, sporting events, concerts. If there are gay people or gay friends of ours at these events fine but we dont find it necessary to have to be surrounded by gay people.

    We go to the gay beach but rarely go to gay bars, we dont do circuit parties, gay vacations, cruises. We just arent interested and its not our style.

    Who is to say those things at the BBQ you attended are boring? Maybe for you it was but for others its not. Dont go if you dont like it. Why does it have to be stylish. Gay is my sexuality not my culture. I dont have to act a certain way to be gay or have to be around people who act a certain way.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 27, 2009 10:00 PM GMT
    Rujock saidand who is to say this is wrong. For me personally, I dont seek out "gay culture". My boyfriend and I do the stuff we like...movies, beach, outdoors, gambling, restaraunts, comic conventions, sporting events, concerts. If there are gay people or gay friends of ours at these events fine but we dont find it necessary to have to be surrounded by gay people.

    We go to the gay beach but rarely go to gay bars, we dont do circuit parties, gay vacations, cruises. We just arent interested and its not our style.

    Who is to say those things at the BBQ you attended are boring? Maybe for you it was but for others its not. Dont go if you dont like it. Why does it have to be stylish. Gay is my sexuality not my culture. I dont have to act a certain way to be gay or have to be around people who act a certain way.


    I never said it was bad, just not for me. I hang out with my straight friends all of the time and have never had a problem but this really was a revelatory moment for me. I can't say exactly why. Maybe it is because recently I am deeply angry about my civil rights being up for a vote. I am angry about the young boys killing themselves rather than dealing with being gay. I am upset about still having to hide in the military and professional sports so that gay young men can't have heroes too. The BBQ was symbolic of all of these things for me. It just snuck up on me.
    Being gay may just be sucking dick or eating ass or whatever for you, but to me it is something different.
    Wether I am sexual or not, I will always be gay. I will always be that little boy who grew up thinking he was really fucked up for something I had no control over. My desire to escape into a world of my own making was somewhat unconscious, mostly because there really was no place made for me and my gay ideas at school,home or neighborhood. I had to constantly hide what I was really thinking and what I was curious about.
    Coming out for me was the best time of my life. Moving into a gay neighborhood, surrounded by artists and quirky neighbors finally felt like home. I could talk about boys, art and politics without using a language of ambiguity.
    I think I have a social responsibility to make sure the next generation has it easier than I did. So that they don't have to live a lie like I did. So that our queer literary heros are taught without shame in school. So that our history isn't whitewashed and any reference to sexuality erased. If we were to pluck out any contribution made by homosexual men and women in the arts, the culinary world , literature,medicine, science, athletics, film and war, there would be an infinite void created. To me, that is my culture. That is my history. Go anywhere in the world and you can recognize it immediately.That is why I find it disgusting I have to ask for basic civil rights. We have paid the price already, trust me.
    I was reading an article the other day in a mainstream magazine and they referred to this man's partner as husband. Not roommate, not partner, but husband. I have to say that was unimaginable to me when I was a kid. It's laughable how many gay couples are just cleverly rewritten in articles to avoid mentioning the obvious. When I opened my business with my then BF of 10 years, every article in every magazine called us partners. Even a story on our home referred to me as his partner. It was rewriting who we are to each other. We will always be considered different in my lifetime, but it shouldn't be something shameful or dirty.
    Fitting in is an appropriate goal for some, just not for me. I am not criticizing your choices as much as I am providing commentary on my own experiences with Prop 8 and reconciling the race to gay marriage.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 27, 2009 10:41 PM GMT
    Rujock saidand who is to say this is wrong. For me personally, I dont seek out "gay culture". My boyfriend and I do the stuff we like...movies, beach, outdoors, gambling, restaraunts, comic conventions, sporting events, concerts. If there are gay people or gay friends of ours at these events fine but we dont find it necessary to have to be surrounded by gay people.

    We go to the gay beach but rarely go to gay bars, we dont do circuit parties, gay vacations, cruises. We just arent interested and its not our style.

    Who is to say those things at the BBQ you attended are boring? Maybe for you it was but for others its not. Dont go if you dont like it. Why does it have to be stylish. Gay is my sexuality not my culture. I dont have to act a certain way to be gay or have to be around people who act a certain way.


    I don't think it has to be a gourmet BBQ or a HICK BBQ for me to like it either way. I live here in a town that is MORMON HICK! It's ok. I like it...they are all anti gay marriage...gay couples and so on...Now, I like to see if you could hold your mans hand in my area...Would you? Do you in your town? Just wondering......


    There are no gays that I know of or even talk with in my town...:-(
    Life is good for me. I can make the best of it here in MESA AZ>...or SF CA!


    I guess it's a good thing you like to talk to other gay people in the RJ Forums. See it's not that bad...even if we are not all LIKE MINDED!!

    I think it's hilarious to see a drag in a cowboy outfit...lol
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 27, 2009 10:51 PM GMT



    Hey mnjock2003, you could always take a holiday in Canada. What you describe hasn't happened up here. Gay culture (we're not really sure what that is, but going by your description) is very alive and kicking here, at least the parties you describe as missing in action, the neighbourhoods (in some cases just shifted to a more affordable area), and the population as a whole does NOT think gay is dirty and dark etc.
    Experiences we've had lately have been happily surprising.


    Equal rights should not require that kind of assimilation where you lose identity and uniqueness.

    That said, how welcoming and understanding is this gay community?
    How tolerant of those gays who speak awkwardly but with sincere intent?
    Look what happened to that guy on the 'to those who are hot and you know who you are' topic as an example of awkward but sincere. He honestly though he was good looking, (he is, though not my type lol) and said so.
    Thoroughly lambasted. His choice of words and sentences we think are what got people riled. We think some aspects of the gay community are making gays leave it to try integrate with a less hostile and critiquing group - the straights!

    Just food for thought....


    Lastly there is this- the prop 8 upholding feels like it will be taken as an OK for more bigotry against gays and those married couples which are now Californian Curiosities. I have straight friends that think the less brilliant will think so...

    Perhaps that explains some of the tension you felt at the party, that others are worried about this too..


    -Doug






  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 27, 2009 11:04 PM GMT
    meninlove said



    Equal rights should not require that kind of assimilation where you lose identity and uniqueness.

    That said, how welcoming and understanding is this gay community?
    How tolerant of those gays who speak awkwardly but with sincere intent?
    We think some aspects of the gay community are making gays leave it to try integrate with a less hostile and critiquing group - the straights!


    -Doug



    This was sort of the jist of one of the points I was trying to make. I think that in the interest of fitting in enough to have equal protection, we have become worse to each other. Instead of support, we are offering blame and condemnation for those that inhabit a space outside a certain desired archetype of gay man.
    When I came out and moved to Minneapolis and later to Atlanta, I had nothing but positive experiences and it's strange for me to see how rotten we are to each other , especially now, when we need each other the most.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 27, 2009 11:19 PM GMT



    Hey mnjock, on another site I said that bitchy is bullying when its intent is to hurt or a put-down. Some find it attractive, or hilarious, but not the ones on the receiving end......

    We've been accused of being mind-numbingly kind, over-the-top with compliments (imagine the shock when it's discovered we're sincere and often correct) and thoroughly gooshy and optimistic. Bad enough to cause mental/emotional diabetic shock or terminal coma from boring..icon_lol.gif

    We wear those social faux pas' proudly. LOL



    -Doug


  • styrgan

    Posts: 2017

    May 27, 2009 11:30 PM GMT
    meninlove said


    Hey mnjock2003, you could always take a holiday in Canada. What you describe hasn't happened up here. Gay culture (we're not really sure what that is, but going by your description) is very alive and kicking here, at least the parties you describe as missing in action, the neighbourhoods (in some cases just shifted to a more affordable area), and the population as a whole does NOT think gay is dirty and dark etc.
    Experiences we've had lately have been happily surprising.



    Dear meninlove,

    Stop pushing your backwards, fur-trapping, communist, logger way of life on us.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 27, 2009 11:35 PM GMT
    styrgan said
    meninlove said


    Hey mnjock2003, you could always take a holiday in Canada. What you describe hasn't happened up here. Gay culture (we're not really sure what that is, but going by your description) is very alive and kicking here, at least the parties you describe as missing in action, the neighbourhoods (in some cases just shifted to a more affordable area), and the population as a whole does NOT think gay is dirty and dark etc.
    Experiences we've had lately have been happily surprising.



    Dear meninlove,

    Stop pushing your backwards, fur-trapping, communist, logger way of life on us.




    LOL

    statue-of-liberty-smack-george-bush.jpg
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 27, 2009 11:39 PM GMT
    [quote][cite]meninlove said[/cite]


    Hey mnjock, on another site I said that bitchy is bullying when its intent is to hurt or a put-down. Some find it attractive, or hilarious, but not the ones on the receiving end......

    We've been accused of being mind-numbingly kind, over-the-top with compliments (imagine the shock when it's discovered we're sincere and often correct) and thoroughly gooshy and optimistic. Bad enough to cause mental/emotional diabetic shock or terminal coma from boring..icon_lol.gif

    We wear those social faux pas' proudly. LOL



    -Doug


    smack_LARGEanimatedlogo.gif
  • styrgan

    Posts: 2017

    May 27, 2009 11:41 PM GMT
    mnjock2003 said
    Somewhere along the line somebody convinced us that the gay lifestyle was dark, devious, diseased, sinful and we unfortanetly believed them so we sneak around, disparage anyone that’s too gay and rally around politicians who could give two shits about us but feed us love we are craving from the straight world. (that's an entirely different ball of yarn)
    I for one, am ready for a rule change. For me that means looking backwards and once again supporting gay businesses, gay politicians, gay musicians, gay neighborhoods, gay caberets and gay charities instead of holding on to the belief that the more I avoid subversive culture, the more I will belong and the happier I will be.


    I think this is exactly the problem. Many of our friends and brothers have bought into this polluted view of gay culture, and as a result, many have fled from it. I think this may largely be a result of our more mainstream acceptance than anything else.

    Obviously, the more that our straight family or friends accept us and corporations reach out to us, the less we feel the need to be isolated among our own. I think in many cases, those people are the ones who have convinced us of these shameful lies about gay culture - perhaps indirectly and not intentionally. But there is definitely a disconnect among lots of straight people as far as accepting gay people individually and accepting the subculture as a whole.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 27, 2009 11:47 PM GMT

    Amen, I totally agree. I'm not sure who decided that we would get more acceptance if we blend in. If we had it to blend in, there never would have been an issue! Having to change to be accepted is part of the problem, always has been. But the newcomers are mostly younger and they are lazy.

    We are different, plain and simple; whether at a gay shindig with the works or a boring white bread bar b q like mnjock describes. At either, we know we are different. This is the main reason I am so at odds with the masculine screamers and conformists on this site. While they puff out their chest, cast aside the rest of their community as stereotypical, and attempt their best male impersonation, they know it too. They never are, never have been, and never will be the "traditional" male archetype, which is by the way, the world's most over rated stereotype.

    You can tell we are just coming to our own as a community because how backward is it to have that belief when any other community cherishes its values, culture, and identity, basically, it's differences. Our identity is what we are. The world is made up of communities, not individuals.

    My community, is my community, warts and all. I don't have to be exactly like everyone in it to feel integrated. You won't get that outside of it. As a whole America is a community made up of all different communities and it's richer for it. We are one within it, and by all means, our differences and identity should be preserved.

    As far as the political aspect of this conversation, we aren't down and we aren't out. There is a lot of attention focused on the issue and no victory is complete without its share of pittfalls. The key is to stay a strong community through it. That entails holding fast to all of who we are.

    If not, we'll wind up the unhappy guest, at the wrong bar b q. Desiring a table of our own is not wrong or unreasonable. Everyone else gets theirs.
    I have always understood that the queer bar is set so high in the gay community to accept every degree of gay into the fold. As, I believe a 70, I have my place just like the 10 to 60's and the 100's. For this reason, our table will always have the potential to get a little rowdy and definitely stand out, but I wouldn't rather sit anywhere else.

    ..................................................
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 27, 2009 11:49 PM GMT
    mnjock2003 saidI know this probably wont be popular or even speak to a lot of you, especially with he recent ruling in CA, but it’s okay to disagree every now and then.
    I went to a neighborhood BBQ last weekend. It was full of gay couples (one was even married), straight couples, a million kids and dogs, potato salad and hot dogs with white buns and only ketchup. Everyone was all passive aggressive but trying to seem so forward thinking. I asked my friend," is this what we fought for and what we continue to fight for? To have a place at the neighborhood BBQ?" sigh, it's just all soooo mediocre and ordinary.


    Hey, I think I live in that neighborhood.
    But I don't try to fit in...have never attended any endorsed function.
    I'm more the reverse-vampire-who-never-turns-on-any-lights-keeps-to-himself-and-has-a-house-full-of-scary-pit-bulls guy.

    PS: you sound a little like Brian Kinny! You Go!

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 27, 2009 11:54 PM GMT
    Perhaps we should all move underground and go into EXILE after this.....I see massive killings and abuse and hangings and line shootings.

    Maybe we should flee to IRAN or N.KOREA.....or was Canada preferred.....

    FUCK THAT!

    BE YOU IN AMERICA! STAND TALL WHERE YOU ARE!!.....


    gay_teenagers_hanged.jpg
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 28, 2009 12:11 AM GMT
    I guess I miss the point here. There are dull, boring, unimaginative people everywhere; I wasn't aware it was determined by orientation. I've been to straight parties that were totally fabulous, and gay parties that were totally deadly, like the one described in the OP.

    I'd certainly like to think that gays are better at parties than straights, but there's not a guarantee. Gays becoming mainstream does not mean our skills at fabulosity will atrophy. It merely means you'll see a wider range of gays emerging, from the magnificent to the mundane.

    I was at an all-gay pool party this past Saturday, and in fact I was struck by how ordinary suburban it was. The gay guys just looked like regular guys, except perhaps for some revealing swimwear, and if there had been women there it would have been indistinguishable from any backyard party in America. And like in the OP, there were 4 dogs running around, though no kids. I had a good time with my friends.

    I'm not sure there's a price for fitting in. Rather, I think there's an opportunity for gays to normalize some of our former extreme behavior by coming out. That pool party wasn't about fitting in, since we were all gays. But neither did we have to disguise the event as once might have been necessary, and in turn we weren't tempted to make it a Halloween event. It was just a bunch of guys having a pool party, period. I don't have a problem with that.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 28, 2009 12:18 AM GMT
    One helpful reality to ponder: Gay people are a subset of the larger population. Because of this, they break out in more-or-less the same way as the larger, let's say "straight," population. One result of the increasing acceptance of gays is the heightened visibility of the less-than-audacious homos.

    There are boring gay people.

    There are uncreative gay people.

    There are gay people who are incapable of or uninterested in trading Wildean barbs over cocktails.

    There are gay people who like watching football, or enjoy bowling, or don't really get into musical theater.

    Your rant is totally acceptable, and I agree with some of the things you're saying. But I'm not really agreeing with you as a gay person per se but as someone who likes to see local businesses thrive instead of being supplanted by national franchises, someone who enjoys fringe culture, someone who thinks that people should strive to live creative and vibrant lives. Incidentally, those are also positions held by my very heterosexual mother. It's a debate that exists outside of sexuality.

    Maybe you should reframe your concerns, and recognize that a very large portion of the gay population was not and will never be part of the kind of culture to which you're advocating a return. Some people dig keg beer and coleslaw, and that's totally fine.