Gays and God

  • DrobUA

    Posts: 1331

    Jun 01, 2009 9:50 PM GMT
    Alright this subject is gonna be a bit touchy but here it goes. I was talking to a guy, very nice, attractive, smart, he would definitely be my type except for one thing. He is very into the mormon community. Now normally I don't have any problem with other peoples beliefs, in fact I think that many people need something to believe in to steer them in the right direction. I just don't understand how someone could believe in something that blatantly contradicts your lifestyle and discriminates against you. Even if he was christian or jewish ect. it wouldn't bother me but mormonism is such a huge part of his everyday life what he talks about that it's hard for it not to. Is it bad that this bothers me? Can someone shed some light about their own belief situation?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 01, 2009 10:49 PM GMT
    I don't think it's bad. I wouldn't date him either. Very often, it's going to put a strain on things I think. I wouldn't have wanted anyone to date me when I was still a practicing Roman Catholic either. Though I was pretty messed up then.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 01, 2009 10:57 PM GMT
    DrobUA saidAlright this subject is gonna be a bit touchy but here it goes. I was talking to a guy, very nice, attractive, smart, he would definitely be my type except for one thing. He is very into the mormon community. Now normally I don't have any problem with other peoples beliefs, in fact I think that many people need something to believe in to steer them in the right direction. I just don't understand how someone could believe in something that blatantly contradicts your lifestyle and discriminates against you. Even if he was christian or jewish ect. it wouldn't bother me but mormonism is such a huge part of his everyday life what he talks about that it's hard for it not to. Is it bad that this bothers me? Can someone shed some light about their own belief situation?


    how attractive is he againicon_razz.gif on a scale of 1-10 icon_razz.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 01, 2009 11:00 PM GMT
    I'll just add a little more. It all depends on what you are comfortable with. If this is not a comfortable thing for you right at the outset, even if it makes you feel guilty, then it probably is not going to work out. If you think it is somthing you can get over though, then I'd go for it. You never know what you will learn.

    But be careful. Don't get burned.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 01, 2009 11:02 PM GMT
    i know how u feel. i met the most perfect dude once and we were compatible on nearly every level but MAN was he a jesus-freak. well in the end, it never worked out - I was very turned off by his enthusiasm for it.
    I have nothing against Christians, but it is a little bit contradictory to follow something that says 'men that lie with men is a detestable thing'. I happen to lean more toward eastern philosophies personally but am not unfamiliar with biblical dogma.
  • gumbosolo

    Posts: 382

    Jun 01, 2009 11:08 PM GMT
    Either he's struggling between two opposite loves and whoever's close to him will get some of the fallout as he decides which way to go, or he's really at peace with being in one of the tiniest minorities in the world and will do something to change his church, like founding a splinter sect or helping other Mormons come out. In which case it'll just be tough to get much time on his schedule. Get to know him better, see where this thing fits in his life and what he makes of it. How much do you know about Mormonism, aside from stereotypes? He deserves for you to ask what about it draws him.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 01, 2009 11:10 PM GMT
    I couldn't help but think he was stupid which would make for an awkward relationship. Stupid's nice for sex though...
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 12:46 AM GMT
    SantosMadrid saidi know how u feel. i met the most perfect dude once and we were compatible on nearly every level but MAN was he a jesus-freak. well in the end, it never worked out - I was very turned off by his enthusiasm for it.
    I have nothing against Christians, but it is a little bit contradictory to follow something that says 'men that lie with men is a detestable thing'. I happen to lean more toward eastern philosophies personally but am not unfamiliar with biblical dogma.


    Actually, your bible quote is only partially correct (a lie basically). It's, "If a man lies with a man AS one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable."

    The qualifier "as" means that there is a way to lie with a man that ISN'T detestable. The truth is that it is entirely possible and biblically acceptable to love and be with another man.

    I have my own belief about what lying with a man as one lies with a woman is but I'll leave you to connect the dots.

    The truth is often stranger than fiction...
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 12:57 AM GMT
    To the OP, the only thing I can suggest to you is to seriously consider why it bothers you so much. If the reason is something like, "Because he believes in a God that hates him." Then I seriously recommend that you check some of the facts for yourself and not take a "religious" persons' word for it.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 1:11 AM GMT
    I'm not into changing people into the person that I'd like for them to be. That being said, I'd just let him be...although, he'd "be" without me by his side.
  • DrobUA

    Posts: 1331

    Jun 02, 2009 1:21 AM GMT
    RyanReBoRn saidTo the OP, the only thing I can suggest to you is to seriously consider why it bothers you so much. If the reason is something like, "Because he believes in a God that hates him." Then I seriously recommend that you check some of the facts for yourself and not take a "religious" persons' word for it.


    My Uncle is a Catholic priest and i've been to church camp more times than I can count. I have read enough of the bible to know what Christianity's views on the matter are. Trust me, having sex with another man is NOT ok with the Christian community. Didn't the bible say something about god destroying an entire city of homosexuals?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 1:36 AM GMT
    RyanReBoRn said
    SantosMadrid saidi know how u feel. i met the most perfect dude once and we were compatible on nearly every level but MAN was he a jesus-freak. well in the end, it never worked out - I was very turned off by his enthusiasm for it.
    I have nothing against Christians, but it is a little bit contradictory to follow something that says 'men that lie with men is a detestable thing'. I happen to lean more toward eastern philosophies personally but am not unfamiliar with biblical dogma.


    Actually, your bible quote is only partially correct (a lie basically). It's, "If a man lies with a man AS one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable."

    The qualifier "as" means that there is a way to lie with a man that ISN'T detestable. The truth is that it is entirely possible and biblically acceptable to love and be with another man.

    I have my own belief about what lying with a man as one lies with a woman is but I'll leave you to connect the dots.

    The truth is often stranger than fiction...


    the text (Lev 18:22, same wording appears in 20:13) says

    וְאֶת-זָכָר--לֹא תִשְׁכַּב, מִשְׁכְּבֵי אִשָּׁה: תּוֹעֵבָה, הִוא.

    and with a male you will not sleep [have sex] in the way that you sleep [have sex] with a woman. It is an abomination.

    The text envisages no "way to lie with a man that isn´t detestable". Dream on.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 1:37 AM GMT
    DrobUA saidAlright this subject is gonna be a bit touchy but here it goes. I was talking to a guy, very nice, attractive, smart, he would definitely be my type except for one thing. He is very into the mormon community. Now normally I don't have any problem with other peoples beliefs, in fact I think that many people need something to believe in to steer them in the right direction. I just don't understand how someone could believe in something that blatantly contradicts your lifestyle and discriminates against you. Even if he was christian or jewish ect. it wouldn't bother me but mormonism is such a huge part of his everyday life what he talks about that it's hard for it not to. Is it bad that this bothers me? Can someone shed some light about their own belief situation?


    Mormons believe that God came from Kolob. Study it up.

    Mormonism is an amazingly interestingly false belief system to study.

    I sure wouldn't attach myself to all that baggage, though.

    Never forget: 7 billion folks. A couple of nuts doesn't ruin the whole batch. Get someone else.

    Mormons aren't at all hip on guys who like dick. It's integral to all the guilt that false belief systems use to manipulate their believers.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 1:48 AM GMT
    jprichva saidI must be going to hell.
    I've lied to plenty of men. "Oh, yeah, you're the best (yawn)".


    He´s here til Friday, folks. Don´t eat the salmon and tip the waitress.

  • DCEric

    Posts: 3713

    Jun 02, 2009 1:53 AM GMT
    Lostboy said
    jprichva saidI must be going to hell.
    I've lied to plenty of men. "Oh, yeah, you're the best (yawn)".


    He´s here til Friday, folks. Don´t eat the salmon and tip the waitress.

    I'd rather: Tip the salmon and don't eat the waitress.... but that's just me.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 1:56 AM GMT
    DCEric said
    Lostboy said
    jprichva saidI must be going to hell.
    I've lied to plenty of men. "Oh, yeah, you're the best (yawn)".


    He´s here til Friday, folks. Don´t eat the salmon and tip the waitress.

    I'd rather: Tip the salmon and don't eat the waitress.... but that's just me.


    Your pic is upside down. You don´t get a choice. icon_rolleyes.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 1:57 AM GMT
    DrobUA saidI just don't understand how someone could believe in something that blatantly contradicts your lifestyle and discriminates against you. Even if he was christian or jewish ect. it wouldn't bother me but mormonism is such a huge part of his everyday life what he talks about that it's hard for it not to.


    DrobUA saidMy Uncle is a Catholic priest and i've been to church camp more times than I can count. I have read enough of the bible to know what Christianity's views on the matter are. Trust me, having sex with another man is NOT ok with the Christian community. Didn't the bible say something about god destroying an entire city of homosexuals?


    As I find myself doing this often with your posts, let me just say I am not trying to be a dick to you.

    But there seems to be some inconsistency. On one hand you admit that Christianity is hostile to gays. On the other you say it wouldn't bother you if he was Christian, but not Mormon. From which we read that you think Mormonism isn't a Christian religion, and there is some Mormon exceptionalism that makes it not ok to hate gays where it is acceptable in other religions.

    It sounds like, to me, that you have a problem with Mormons, not people who are of faiths that don't like gays.
  • GeorgeNJ

    Posts: 216

    Jun 02, 2009 2:00 AM GMT
    QUOTE AUTHOR GOES HEREMy Uncle is a Catholic priest and i've been to church camp more times than I can count. I have read enough of the bible to know what Christianity's views on the matter are. Trust me, having sex with another man is NOT ok with the Christian community. Didn't the bible say something about god destroying an entire city of homosexuals?


    I think you're thinking of the destruction of Sodom (Genesis 19). No it was not a town of homosexuals. If you read it, it's really about the attempt of some guys to rape Lot's visitors (who were male). Rape (with the later intent to kill) was the crime. It was only in the christian era by the 200's that homosexuality was isolated from the context and demonized.

    However, I think you're right about the christian churches (well, most of them). They choose to interpret the bible in a way that fits their own prejudices, and so they are not welcoming of gay people.
  • GeorgeNJ

    Posts: 216

    Jun 02, 2009 2:12 AM GMT
    An excellent book -- Wrestling with God and Men by Steven Greenberg (a gay rabbi) -- offers this: that sleeping with a man as sleeping with woman means penetration, and so sleeping with a man without penetration is not "an abomination."

    Greenberg does go on to justify male-male penetration (you'll have to read the book to get this).

    Not sure what I think about this interpretation, but I thought I'd throw it out to you.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 2:25 AM GMT
    DrobUA said
    RyanReBoRn saidTo the OP, the only thing I can suggest to you is to seriously consider why it bothers you so much. If the reason is something like, "Because he believes in a God that hates him." Then I seriously recommend that you check some of the facts for yourself and not take a "religious" persons' word for it.


    My Uncle is a Catholic priest and i've been to church camp more times than I can count. I have read enough of the bible to know what Christianity's views on the matter are. Trust me, having sex with another man is NOT ok with the Christian community. Didn't the bible say something about god destroying an entire city of homosexuals?


    Just because it's not okay with the Christian community doesn't mean it's wrong, you have to think for yourself. Carefully exam the account of David and Jonathan in Samuel 1 and tell me how the bible feels about to men loving each other. David said himself that his love for Jonathan surpassed the love he had for women.

    No, the Bible doesn't say anything about God destroying a city full of homosexuals. It talks about a city in angry mob form because they thought a couple of spies were in their city, an angry mob that wanted to (presumably) butt rape and assault a couple of angels. What does that have to do with loving another man?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 2:31 AM GMT
    Lostboy said
    RyanReBoRn said
    SantosMadrid saidi know how u feel. i met the most perfect dude once and we were compatible on nearly every level but MAN was he a jesus-freak. well in the end, it never worked out - I was very turned off by his enthusiasm for it.
    I have nothing against Christians, but it is a little bit contradictory to follow something that says 'men that lie with men is a detestable thing'. I happen to lean more toward eastern philosophies personally but am not unfamiliar with biblical dogma.


    Actually, your bible quote is only partially correct (a lie basically). It's, "If a man lies with a man AS one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable."

    The qualifier "as" means that there is a way to lie with a man that ISN'T detestable. The truth is that it is entirely possible and biblically acceptable to love and be with another man.

    I have my own belief about what lying with a man as one lies with a woman is but I'll leave you to connect the dots.

    The truth is often stranger than fiction...


    the text (Lev 18:22, same wording appears in 20:13) says

    וְאֶת-זָכָר--לֹא תִשְׁכַּב, מִשְׁכְּבֵי אִשָּׁה: תּוֹעֵבָה, הִוא.

    and with a male you will not sleep [have sex] in the way that you sleep [have sex] with a woman. It is an abomination.

    The text envisages no "way to lie with a man that isn´t detestable". Dream on.


    The qualifier with the quote you presented above is "in the way". If you don't sleep [have sex] with a man as one sleeps [has sex] with a woman, then you should be fine. All the text says is that there is a wrong way to have sex with a man, justified by the qualifier "in the way".

    You have to be asleep to dream in the first place...
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 2:32 AM GMT
    GeorgeNJ said
    QUOTE AUTHOR GOES HEREMy Uncle is a Catholic priest and i've been to church camp more times than I can count. I have read enough of the bible to know what Christianity's views on the matter are. Trust me, having sex with another man is NOT ok with the Christian community. Didn't the bible say something about god destroying an entire city of homosexuals?



    However, I think you're right about the christian churches (well, most of them). They choose to interpret the bible in a way that fits their own prejudices, and so they are not welcoming of gay people.


    Exactly, George.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 2:34 AM GMT
    GeorgeNJ saidAn excellent book -- Wrestling with God and Men by Steven Greenberg (a gay rabbi) -- offers this: that sleeping with a man as sleeping with woman means penetration, and so sleeping with a man without penetration is not "an abomination."

    Greenberg does go on to justify male-male penetration (you'll have to read the book to get this).

    Not sure what I think about this interpretation, but I thought I'd throw it out to you.


    Also a solid couple of statements!

    Looks like somebody did their research, ha ha icon_wink.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 2:43 AM GMT
    RyanReBoRn saidThe qualifier with the quote you presented above is "in the way". If you don't sleep [have sex] with a man as one sleeps [has sex] with a woman, then you should be fine. All the text says is that there is a wrong way to have sex with a man, justified by the qualifier "in the way".


    I don´t get off on being nasty to people, but you need to learn Hebrew before you start pontificating on what it does or does not mean.

    icon_cool.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 2:47 AM GMT
    Lostboy said
    RyanReBoRn saidThe qualifier with the quote you presented above is "in the way". If you don't sleep [have sex] with a man as one sleeps [has sex] with a woman, then you should be fine. All the text says is that there is a wrong way to have sex with a man, justified by the qualifier "in the way".


    I don´t get off on being nasty to people, but you need to learn Hebrew before you start pontificating on what it does or does not mean.

    icon_cool.gif


    Are you saying that your Hebrew to English translation is flawed? If not, what's the problem with my interpretation of the text?

    I'm practically an adult now, I can take criticism. The only time I will object is when the criticism is undue.