I'm freaking the fuck out

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 9:04 AM GMT
    we did everything but fuck. before i left his place, he went into his email and when his inbox came up, i saw a message from "poz personals." i asked him if he was positive and he said yes.

    i told him i wish he'd told me sooner, and he said he was waiting for the right time, and would have told me before we actually did it/ if i'd ASKED him sooner. he also said his viral load was too low for meds, and you can't contract it from a blow job. (i swallowed a huge load.)

    i can't find any conlcusive reasearch on the internet to this effect. does anyone know of a reliable resource for this question?

    and... should i be pissed? i'm already pissed at myself, but is it normal/reasonable for positive guys to not disclose until anal sex is on the table, or was that fucked up? i had a condom accident a while back and my internist said false negatives happen from six months to a year after exposure, so that means i'll havesome anxiety about my status for a while. any good info would be much appreciated.

    -robby
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 10:20 AM GMT
    The CDC website says one can contact HIV from oral sex.

    the following is copied from their web site
    Yes, it is possible for either partner to become infected with HIV through performing or receiving oral sex. There have been a few cases of HIV transmission from performing oral sex on a person infected with HIV. While no one knows exactly what the degree of risk is, evidence suggests that the risk is less than that of unprotected anal or vaginal sex.
    http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/qa/qa19.htm

    The risk from oral sex is very small...Actually it is far less than what the CDC implies on their site...The CDC is being cautious


    The CDC has a tool free number... call them today about what followup is appropriate for you. You can also check with your physician or local health department..
    call CDC-INFO 24 Hours/Day at 1-800-CDC-INFO (232-4636), 1-888-232-6348 (TTY), in English, en EspaƱol.

    I assume you have been immunized for Hep B...Hep B is sexually transmitted and can cause chronic hepatitis and cirrhosis..

    You need to assume that anyone that you have sex with has a contagious STD and then take appropriate precautions..There are a lot of young guys out there that are HIV positive but don't know it. As you discovered, there are guys with known HIV who are not going to tell you...
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 10:29 AM GMT
    He's right you know. You have to ASK. Don't assume someone is negative from outright, and didn't someone ever tell you not to swallow either? It's not easy disclosing being positive, so you have to make the first step.

    And yes you can contract it from a blowjob by nature of it being serocontagious, but the statistical data on it is inconclusive (go to the website kneedraggen linked), so it's safe to say it's very very rare.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 10:36 AM GMT
    IMHO, he definitely should have told you before sharing any body fluids with you, since there is some chance of contracting it. I would definitely expose his status to people that I knew and everybody else. If he isnt going to be responsible, then people should know so that they can protect themselves.

    However, the chances of catching it from oral sex are so low that you arent going to catch it.

    So take a deep breath and relax.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 10:50 AM GMT
    I concur with all the replies above about oral risk. It exists but is low. Nevertheless, get yourself tested in a few months, which sexually active gay men should do regularly anyway. The markers for HIV won't appear for several months if you were infected.

    Safe sex means assuming every sexual partner is infected, even if he doesn't know it himself, which is quite possible. So even if you ask him beforehand, he may unwittingly give you a false answer of being negative.

    But since this guy knew he was poz, I do think he should have volunteered the info before you gave him a BJ. That was poor behavior on his part, IMHO. And you should get into the habit of asking.
  • Timbales

    Posts: 13993

    Jun 02, 2009 11:34 AM GMT
    Before anything sexual happened, he should have told you and you should have asked. Oral may not carry as high a risk as anal, but it's still a rick and you should have been informed.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 3:26 PM GMT
    I know around 5 guys that have become HIV+ recently (young and older) . Some swear they don't know how they got it. The drugs and the low viral load thing seem to have caused a irresponsible, relaxed attitude..by POZ guys as you have experienced. It seems like it is now politically correct to suppress the info that HIV infection is up again. .
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 3:30 PM GMT
    Alpha13 said It seems like it is now politically correct to suppress the info that HIV infection is up again. .

    It sadly, is beyond that. It has morphed into a a subculture of rites and rituals. See Tim Dean's Unlimited Intimacy
  • HndsmKansan

    Posts: 16311

    Jun 02, 2009 3:32 PM GMT
    I would think if you were about to swallow and having intense oral sex,
    he should have said something... anytime you are put in any sort of increased risk, a responsible guy should say something.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 3:34 PM GMT
    Ok, I'm going to diverge from the HIV issue here and bluntly ask why in the hell people are swallowing the cum of complete strangers??? Seriously. There are just some things you should NOT do until you actually get to know someone.

    And while being mindful of HIV is wise...what about gonorrhea, chlamydia, syphilis, etc., etc.

    Edit: Ok, my tone above might be slightly judgmental, but dammit all to hell people we have to be responsible for our safety. Don't depend on others to keep you safe.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 3:42 PM GMT


    Wow! Sorry you're going through this. I imagine no matter how often you here that the risk of being infected via oral sex is low, you must be worried sick.

    Anything that anyone tells you on here or that you read from any source is, be its very nature, based on statistics in large populations. My hunch is that what you need to feel reasonably at ease is definitive information about whether YOU have been infected.

    The best way to get that information is to contact your doctor or an STI clinic. There are some tests than give preliminary results of whether you've been infected very soon after exposure. It may also be possible to be prescribed prophylactic doses of anti-retrovirals. You can also be put on a schedule for follow up monitoring. Even if the initial test is negative, it would be wise to be tested again at 90 days and six months.

    Best of luck. It really is unlikely that you have been infected. I hope you get back all negative test results and your peace of mind as soon as possible.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 3:43 PM GMT
    Pissed?? Maybe! Disturbed? Yes. Bothered? Yes. He should have been up front about it!

    In regards to the oral sex and HIV, and NOT down playing being safe, one time when I went in for my tests, I FREAKED out due to some oral that went TOO far. Anyways, the Counselor on duty shared this with me; he said it was SAFER to swallow than it was to hold the semen in your mouth because IF you have any open wounds in your moth, mind you they need to be pretty MAJOR ones too, the semen would then penetrate the wound and enter your system that way and that typically happens, he said, if you hold it in your mouth too long (my reaction was, "What, so they store this shit like chipmunks do nuts??"). He said by swallowing your risk of infection is actually lowers, go figure!

    Anyways, everyone should be up front and honest about their status ESPECIALLY when any kind of intimacy is going to occur!!!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 3:53 PM GMT
    The best course of action is not to engage in the fuck anything that walks game.

    You need to take the view that anyone can be positive, and never, ever, never, believe someone if they say they're not sick. They could very well have the virus and not know it.

    Understand many of these folks got into their situations through careless, selfish, idiotic, behavior, and don't have the best track records of being decent, responsible, civic-minded people that are concerned about themselves and others. They live in an I,I,I,me,me,me, world of self-indulgence where everything is about them and fuck everyone else, and, of course, from their view nothing that happens is / was their responsibility.

    Understand that sex with strangers is raw, and dangerous. Understand that sex with folks you know is not quite as dangerous, but, by its very nature sex is raw and has many inherent risks.

    You'll need to get tested every few months for up to a year and 1/2 (but, I've heard the virus is generally detectable much sooner) unless you do the more expensive tests, right away.

    Take with you a lesson, and take it to others. HIV is nearly 100% preventable.

    Educate yourself about the myths, and the reality, of careless sexual behavior. Oral sex certainly isn't without risk, but, it's not as risky as being bottom in bare-backing.

    In any event, whatever will happen will happen. You now need to lead and let others know it's NOT o.k. to behave poorly.

    Don't put someone else through the crap you're dealing with now.

    Step up, learn, become a leader, and a better man for it.

    Never forget, especially with strangers, some folks are scum; some folks are just plain idiots. YOU SHOULD ASSUME THE OTHER PERSON COULD BE SICK. YOU SHOULD ALWAYS TAKE A DEFENSIVE POSITION WITH REGARD TO SEX.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 3:55 PM GMT
    Alpha13 saidI know around 5 guys that have become HIV+ recently (young and older) . Some swear they don't know how they got it. The drugs and the low viral load thing seem to have caused a irresponsible, relaxed attitude..by POZ guys as you have experienced. It seems like it is now politically correct to suppress the info that HIV infection is up again. .


    The ones who swear they don't know how they got it, more than like just don't know WHO they got it from, because they were regularly engaging in high-risk activity. I'm not judging, I'm just saying I'd rather someone own up to it than give me some BS.

    As to the OP... its true they don't have to say anything if you don't ask. Its not rude to ask. In fact, I'd be happier and more comfortable with a guy who outright says he's positive to me, than a "negative" or "don't know" guy who isn't upfront.

    The question I want to ask you is if he had told you upfront that he was poz, would you have treated him differently? Would you have gone to his house? People have so much anxiety and negativity towards positive people, even to the point where people treat them as less-than-human. Then you wonder why people don't disclose their status.

    The other question I have is: If you hadn't found that stuff in his email, would you have had a return trip to his place? Had anal sex? When would you have asked? What if it never came up? Its easy to be complacent with someone you consider a "fuck buddy" or a "regular".

    I don't judge people who sero-convert. I don't judge people who play safe 100% of the time because they want to stay negative. I don't enjoy people who hide in the shadows and engage in high risk behavior and still cling to their negativity and start flinging mud at people who are positive (most of whom are up front and responsible about their status)

    Above all, your body is your temple and your responsibility. I'm not saying what you did was wrong, I'm just saying everyone has to look at themselves and what they did before they go off blaming others.

    EDIT:
    Rob, I'm not singling you out personally with most of what I said. It may apply to you, it may not... I'm just tired of the blame always being placed first on the poz guy. While they do hold a large part of the responsibility... it takes two to tango.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 4:03 PM GMT
    I'm going through my own little scare right now man. I tested negative a month after, but still have some followups to do. Just be safe with whoever you are with. Good luck with everything, and hang in there. I know it's a rough thing.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 4:12 PM GMT
    Robadob saidwe did everything but fuck. before i left his place, he went into his email and when his inbox came up, i saw a message from "poz personals." i asked him if he was positive and he said yes.

    i told him i wish he'd told me sooner, and he said he was waiting for the right time, and would have told me before we actually did it/ if i'd ASKED him sooner. he also said his viral load was too low for meds, and you can't contract it from a blow job. (i swallowed a huge load.)

    i can't find any conlcusive reasearch on the internet to this effect. does anyone know of a reliable resource for this question?

    and... should i be pissed? i'm already pissed at myself, but is it normal/reasonable for positive guys to not disclose until anal sex is on the table, or was that fucked up? i had a condom accident a while back and my internist said false negatives happen from six months to a year after exposure, so that means i'll havesome anxiety about my status for a while. any good info would be much appreciated.

    -robby


    Yo, dancerjack posted info on a new site on awareness

    check it out and follow the rules, baby!

    http://www.fc-kits.org/hotsafersex.html

    spontanity is great but it means putting yourself at risk.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 4:18 PM GMT
    Pinny said
    Alpha13 said It seems like it is now politically correct to suppress the info that HIV infection is up again. .

    It sadly, is beyond that. It has morphed into a a subculture of rites and rituals. See Tim Dean's Unlimited Intimacy
    [I just edited Pinny's link. That's all]
  • coolarmydude

    Posts: 9190

    Jun 02, 2009 4:35 PM GMT
    There are two things about this thread that amazes me:

    1) How people give a rat's ass about HIV & AIDS before sex and feel the cold, icy grips of the Grim Reaper just because they found out about their hook-up's POZ status AFTER having sex.

    2) How some POZ people wonder why on Earth are they still stigmatized after not being forthcoming before sex.

    I realize that some POZ persons are upfront, but I'm beginning to see a correlation between the HIV neg guys who aren't honest with themselves about HIV/AIDS and the importance of personal responisbility that goes with it, later carry that same attitude of dishonesty when they become POZ and project that dishonesty by not being forthcoming with potential hook-ups. It's a web of deceipt, rooted in dishonesty and self-gratification, and not in HIV/AIDS status.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 4:37 PM GMT
    coolarmydude saidThere are two things about this thread that amazes me:

    1) How people give a rat's ass about HIV & AIDS before sex and feel the cold, icy grips of the Grim Reaper just because they found out about their hook-up's POZ status AFTER having sex.

    2) How some POZ people wonder why on Earth are they still stigmatized after not being forthcoming before sex.

    I realize that some POZ persons are upfront, but I'm beginning to see a correlation between the HIV neg guys who aren't honest with themselves about HIV/AIDS and the importance of personal responisbility that goes with it, later carry that same attitude of dishonesty when they become POZ and project that dishonesty by not being forthcoming with potential hook-ups. It's a web of deceipt, rooted in dishonesty and self-gratification, and not in HIV/AIDS status.


    What I don't know can't hurt me.... when has that ever been true? And then, if what you say is true, I wouldn't blame it on the gourp labeled as "POZ" I would label the group "Personally Irresponsible or Ignorant" because not all POZ men are that.
  • styrgan

    Posts: 2017

    Jun 02, 2009 4:44 PM GMT
    Assuming he's being honest about his viral load, you are certainly safe. I was with someone for nearly a year who was HIV+ and on antiretroviral drugs for nearly a decade. If someone's viral load is undetectable, the chances of them passing on HIV is minimal, even in optimal circumstances for transmission.

    I don't ever remember using a condom during oral sex with him, and I'm still negative.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 4:44 PM GMT
    Let me restate what I did above, about 4 down from the OP, and expand on it:

    "Safe sex means assuming every sexual partner is infected, even if he doesn't know it himself, which is quite possible. So even if you ask him beforehand, he may unwittingly give you a false answer of being negative."

    Unless the guy has been 100% celibate, or monogamous with you for at least 3 to 6 months since his last negative HIV test, neither you nor he can say with certainty that he's still negative. The guy can show you a wallet card that confirms he tested negative that very morning and it's MEANINGLESS.

    He could have been infected during the last 4 to 8 weeks and his HIV results might still be negative, yet he'd be capable of infecting you. The markers in the blood on which HIV tests rely do not appear for months after infection, yet a person is still contagious.

    This fact is not well understood, and leads to a false sense of safety in both parties. Safe sex means you treat the other guy like he's infected, period, no matter what he tells you. If a guy told you he was poz, how would you act with him? Behave that same way with everyone.
  • styrgan

    Posts: 2017

    Jun 02, 2009 4:48 PM GMT
    Red_Vespa said

    Unless the guy has been 100% celibate, or monogamous with you for at least 3 to 6 months since his last negative HIV test, neither you nor he can say with certainty that he's still negative.


    ...and even then, wrapping it is still the best rule of thumb.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 5:02 PM GMT
    Reading between the lines, my opinion on HIV's communicability through oral sex is that it's not possible unless you have an open cut or sore in your mouth. There's enough convincing evidence out there that IgA (a chemical in your saliva) neutralizes HIV in short order.

    In a healthy mouth, the odds are astronomically against contracting HIV through oral. (However, you can get all other sorts of STDs that way, so you should still get yourself checked out.)

    Given the frequency with which I've seen gays lie about safe sex, status, etc. I'm almost willing to discount entirely the studies that have suggested contraction of HIV through oral alone is possible, except in cases where there's an open mouth wound. They're entirely based on interviews with men who claimed they only sucked dick and never did anything else unsafe, which provokes major eyerollage from yours truly.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 5:03 PM GMT
    styrgan said
    Red_Vespa said

    Unless the guy has been 100% celibate, or monogamous with you for at least 3 to 6 months since his last negative HIV test, neither you nor he can say with certainty that he's still negative.


    ...and even then, wrapping it is still the best rule of thumb.

    Yes, I was assuming use of a condom during the 6-months following a negative HIV test. After that period, it is possible for 2 negative men to have unprotected sex without a condom if they continue to remain 100% monogamous with each other.

    But obviously you are placing your life in each other's hands. If one cheats, even once, you can both die. That is exactly what happened to my late partner, when his previous partner cheated and infected him, and they both eventually died of AIDS.

    Yet I wasn't afraid to live with him and have protected sex, even as the bottom, and I remain negative. I used a condom for oral, too, since I have bad gums and thought that represented too great a risk. I may have taken a slight chance with bare hand jobs, since I've read the eyes may be an HIV entry point, and he could shoot pretty far.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 02, 2009 5:12 PM GMT
    cubsfan1986 said
    Alpha13 saidI know around 5 guys that have become HIV+ recently (young and older) . Some swear they don't know how they got it. The drugs and the low viral load thing seem to have caused a irresponsible, relaxed attitude..by POZ guys as you have experienced. It seems like it is now politically correct to suppress the info that HIV infection is up again. .



    The question I want to ask you is if he had told you upfront that he was poz, would you have treated him differently? Would you have gone to his house? People have so much anxiety and negativity towards positive people, even to the point where people treat them as less-than-human. Then you wonder why people don't disclose their status.



    Surely you are not arguing that this is a valid reason for someone not to disclose their status?