Making Same Sex Marriage Legal: You've been doing it Wrong

  • DCEric

    Posts: 3713

    Jun 12, 2009 8:55 PM GMT
    A new article from Five Thirty Eight says what I have been saying for a while. The approach that has been taken thus far for same sex marriage is "you have it and you can't take it away from me", instead of "the government has no right to choose who you may marry based on your Birth Certificate".

    The folks at 538 say it much better than I could and used an example that will shock and amazing you. 63% of Americans are pro-same sex marriage when the question is phrased to be about government involvement, instead of equal rights.
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    Jun 12, 2009 9:14 PM GMT
    Yeah a friend of mine at New York Equality pointed this out to me. Funny how fickle people can be over words.
  • DCEric

    Posts: 3713

    Jun 12, 2009 9:20 PM GMT
    xuaerb saidYeah a friend of mine at New York Equality pointed this out to me. Funny how fickle people can be over words.

    Well the difference between "give me" and "leave me alone" is huge.
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    Jun 12, 2009 9:43 PM GMT
    ... instead of "the government has no right to choose who you may marry based on your Birth Certificate".



    I posted on Huffpo some time ago that marriage is not between one man and one woman, that's it's between one man, one woman, and various other parties, including the government. I think we, as the offended, sometimes get blinded by some of the arguments from the other side which all sound like fireworks but in fact are little more than sparks. If marriage was really between one man and one woman, as the opposition likes to parrot, nobody would get married. What would be the benefit, as opposed to just spending your life with someone? Oh, I suppose some of the religious would do their voodoo dances for the witch doctor, but that would be the end of it. Lawyers would go out of business.
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    Jun 12, 2009 9:45 PM GMT
    DCEric saidA new article from Five Thirty Eight says what I have been saying for a while. The approach that has been taken thus far for same sex marriage is "you have it and you can't take it away from me", instead of "the government has no right to choose who you may marry based on your Birth Certificate".

    The folks at 538 say it much better than I could and used an example that will shock and amazing you. 63% of Americans are pro-same sex marriage when the question is phrased to be about government involvement, instead of equal rights.


    I agree completely, and this change is slowly spreading now.
    Once society has come to think of it in the new perspective, we'll be able to have marriage equality through legislatures rather than the courts. In the long-run, a legislative solution is much to be preferred.
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    Jun 12, 2009 9:54 PM GMT
    There are other angles to this as well.

    I don't believe I've heard the gender discrimination angle taken yet. Though, I don't know if women yet even have constitutional equal rights. The ERA is still in limbo, no?

    At one time, women did not have the right to vote in the U.S. Men always did. Currently, women do not have the right to marry women in the U.S. Men have always been allowed. This doesn't hinge on sexuality either. Gay men are allowed to marry women, as surely you've heard/seen argued from the opposition. If men can marry women, why can't women? And equally, if a woman can marry a man, why can't a man? From this perspective, it sounds like gender discrimination, which may or may not be constitutional.
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    Jun 12, 2009 10:22 PM GMT
    DCEric said
    xuaerb saidYeah a friend of mine at New York Equality pointed this out to me. Funny how fickle people can be over words.

    Well the difference between "give me" and "leave me alone" is huge.


    Agreed, but the issue remains.
    I guess my point is that if people are that easily misled by language then they probably don't understand the issue, if you ask me.
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    Jun 13, 2009 1:58 AM GMT
    Here's how we've been 'doing it wrong':

    Single-issue activism. ALL we talk about and care about is marriage. Have ANY of you looked around? Most of our relationships are down the drain in 6-24 months. Many of us have NO clue on how to date, how to have relationships, where to meet other gay people; dating 101...we missed out on years of these experiences yet nobody ever talks about how that hinders our chances of finding and keeping a relationship later in life. We're doing everything 10-20 years later than straight people of the same age bracket. We had to wait. For every gay couple I know of who wants to get married I can name about 15 single gay people who've waited a dozen years just to MEET someone decent. They've given up - they don't read about gay marriage because they liken it to a woman who has had a miscarriage and has to sit and look at couples with newborns all the time - it's too painful to talk about and it's too painful to look at. Don't torture them.

    Single-issue activism is going to kill the gay community. You will not see any more Marches on Washington because you self-righteous people have alienated about 80% of the gay and lesbian community - how about our other issues: lack of health care, homelessness, suicide, substance abuse, HIV, breast cancer, depression...none of this matters anymore? Or it doesn't matter because it's not YOUR problem? My point is this: gay people make up an incredibly small percentage of people as it is. I guarantee you - if you won't listen to the issues that the rest of us face, you're on your own. That's how it's going to work. Either you stop being so hung up on your own self-importance or the rest of the community will bring you back down to earth while you lose what little rights you thought you were going to gain. Nobody wins when only 5% of the community gets what they want.
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    Jun 13, 2009 1:59 AM GMT
    If the gay community can't date for more than 5 months at a time, then why should we be so into getting married?
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    Jun 13, 2009 2:11 AM GMT

    5 months, you are generous!!
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    Jun 13, 2009 2:33 AM GMT
    Right, because straight people never date for only five months.

    What fantasy land do you boys live in? Get out more often.

    Polling is a tricky art. Abortion for example. If you word it "are you pro-life or pro-choice" the majority of Americans are pro-life. Who doesn't like life after all? If you word it "should women be given the choice to have an abortion" suddenly the majority of Americans favor reproductive rights.

    As a side note, I am really glad to see 538 doing so well after the election. They consistently post interesting material.
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    Jun 13, 2009 2:50 AM GMT
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    Jun 13, 2009 2:51 AM GMT
    MunchingZombie saidRight, because straight people never date for only five months.

    Right. We should not be allowed to marry until we master dating, solve all our other problems and learn to make long term commitments -- all the things straight people are required to do before they are granted a marriage license.
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    Jun 13, 2009 3:00 AM GMT
    Interesting forum post and idea. It's funny how such a small distinction can make such a big difference.
  • styrgan

    Posts: 2017

    Jun 13, 2009 3:28 AM GMT
    adaminmarietta saidIf the gay community can't date for more than 5 months at a time, then why should we be so into getting married?


    What about those who have had relationships that spanned a matter or years, or those that are into a few decades?

    Should they be denied the right to marry?

    Either way, I really was unaware that equal rights depended on our dating rituals. Or whether some people don't like dating at all.

    Why is it that a gay couple of ten years with a kid should be denied the right to marry on the basis of tweaked out circuit boys?

    BTW, when someone complains about how gay men date, it makes me ask why. Because most of us clearly aren't having a problem. Maybe there's something specifically wrong with you that guys don't want to date you past five months. Maybe?
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    Jun 13, 2009 3:38 AM GMT
    I just added that website to my "favorites" list. I love how they dissect the issue and how well they state their opinion. It was a great article and one I will quote when debating gay marriage, gay rights or gay anything in the future.

    I have touched on this in the past when arguing a point but nowhere near as eloquently. It does cover my basic philosophy, though. It goes along with my Federalist point of view that goverments do not "give" rights. Governments can only "take away" rights. Rights are inaliable. They come inherently with being human. The Founders of our country stated that very eloquently 200+ years ago. We do not have rights because a government gave them to us. We have them because they are ours. Government can only take away rights.

    Good job to the original poster. I really appreciate his bringing this website to my attention.

    JW
  • Anto

    Posts: 2035

    Jun 13, 2009 4:30 AM GMT
    The 9th Amendment:!

    The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
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    Jun 13, 2009 4:30 AM GMT
    DuluthMN saidHere's how we've been 'doing it wrong':

    Single-issue activism. ALL we talk about and care about is marriage. Have ANY of you looked around? Most of our relationships are down the drain in 6-24 months. Many of us have NO clue on how to date, how to have relationships, where to meet other gay people; dating 101...we missed out on years of these experiences yet nobody ever talks about how that hinders our chances of finding and keeping a relationship later in life. We're doing everything 10-20 years later than straight people of the same age bracket. We had to wait. For every gay couple I know of who wants to get married I can name about 15 single gay people who've waited a dozen years just to MEET someone decent. They've given up - they don't read about gay marriage because they liken it to a woman who has had a miscarriage and has to sit and look at couples with newborns all the time - it's too painful to talk about and it's too painful to look at. Don't torture them.

    Single-issue activism is going to kill the gay community. You will not see any more Marches on Washington because you self-righteous people have alienated about 80% of the gay and lesbian community - how about our other issues: lack of health care, homelessness, suicide, substance abuse, HIV, breast cancer, depression...none of this matters anymore? Or it doesn't matter because it's not YOUR problem? My point is this: gay people make up an incredibly small percentage of people as it is. I guarantee you - if you won't listen to the issues that the rest of us face, you're on your own. That's how it's going to work. Either you stop being so hung up on your own self-importance or the rest of the community will bring you back down to earth while you lose what little rights you thought you were going to gain. Nobody wins when only 5% of the community gets what they want.
    What YOU are doing wrong is being self-deprecating.

    Gays are, in actuality, talking about multiple issues like ENDA and DADT also. And yes suicide and other issues are always there and there are many organizations that will be glad to get a donation or other help from you. Search these forums and see how often things like suicide depression and illness talked about. And I don't know if it has escaped your notice, but all these things are related. Did it ever occur to you that the reason so many gays suffer depression and dysfunctionality is BECAUSE society, our families, and even our own government tell us from a young age that gays are defective, sinful, perverted, and not deserving of something as simple as marriage??? The rights gays are fighting for benefit US ALL.

    Do you really think that telling gay people that they are self righteous for wanting equality is helping? Do you think the way you correct an abused child is to beat him harder?
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    Jun 13, 2009 4:38 AM GMT
    Anto saidThe 9th Amendment:!

    The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
    BINGO. In truth that is ALL the marriage bans and any anti-gay law is about .. it's about disparaging and telling gays they are unfit .. unfit to raise children, unfit to have a committed relationship, UNFIT to serve your country..
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    Jun 13, 2009 4:43 AM GMT
    When did gays become single issue? I have not seen that. Sometimes I think we are fighting too many fronts at once. But for every gay, there is an issue that they find important. I would never tell them to put their energies elsewhere. Fight what is important to you. DADT, ENDA, Gay marriage, ect. Whatever stokes your fire and motivates you, fight it. That is the beauty of our system. We can debate anything and we can focus on anything. There is support for any issue. Find your passion. Fight like hell.
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    Jun 13, 2009 4:45 AM GMT
    Triggerman saidWhen did gays become single issue? I have not seen that.
    thank you! icon_confused.gif
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    Jun 13, 2009 4:49 AM GMT
    No problem. Just stating what I see.