When it comes to issues of being, transsexual, transgender, post-op, pre-op. crossdresser etc. It creates a lot of food for thought.

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    Jun 14, 2009 5:45 AM GMT

    -What box do you check off when applying for a job?
    -What bathroom do you use at a restaurant or airport?
    -What lockerroom do you shower in at the gym?



    First let me say, I am COMPLETELY applauding Chastity Bono for always being open and proud of her sexuality. But things like this create an extremely "grey," area in our society, which can make people either more or less tolerant of the same sex oriented.

    I honestely don't have an opinion about this b/c there are WAY too many factors...I'm just curious about how you guys feel.
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    Jun 14, 2009 9:08 AM GMT
    I watched a great show on National Geographic last night on the show Taboo about transgenderism. It was very eye opening and enlightening, particularly who non western cultures have been embrasing it far longer than western cultures.
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    Jun 14, 2009 9:16 AM GMT
    Well, it has never been a good idea to think of of humans as being either 100% male or 100% female. Humans are a combination of BOTH sexes. Doesn't get much grayer than everyone being a combination of both sexes.

    I honestly have no idea what to think of tran-people. I just don't see what could motivate someone to undergo a sex change operation in order to APPEAR to be the other sex.

    I really could care less what facilities they use as long as they behave appropriately, as is expected of everyone else who uses those facilities.
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    Jun 14, 2009 9:35 AM GMT
    I would assume people use the facilities that match their current appearance. There are very few places where genitilia should matter.

    Regarding the issue itself, IMO most trans could be helped with counseling rather than surgery. Surgery rarely produces natural results, unless done at a very young age.

    Most of the feeling in the wrong body issue, is most likely social. Our society has taken masculinity and femininity to the extremes. For example, it used to be common for men to kiss and hug, regardless of their sexuality, and for women to do physical labor. By creating unnatural divisions between the sexes, we've made some people feel like they were born into the wrong gender.
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    Jun 14, 2009 10:30 AM GMT
    RyanReBoRn said

    I honestly have no idea what to think of tran-people. I just don't see what could motivate someone to undergo a sex change operation in order to APPEAR to be the other sex.

    I really could care less what facilities they use as long as they behave appropriately, as is expected of everyone else who uses those facilities.


    You say appear as if they are playing dress up, When trans folks undergo surgery it is so that the out side matches the inside and sex reassignment surgery is only approved after much counseling.

    Behave appropriately in the bathrooms? seriously? The m-f trans that I know are far more feminine and ladylike than most natural born women and the few f-m will use the stalls in the restrooms for privacy.
    What inappropriate behavior are you talking about?? like the foot tapping republican kind?.. WTF!
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    Jun 14, 2009 10:40 AM GMT
    SeaSon saidI would assume people use the facilities that match their current appearance. There are very few places where genitilia should matter.

    Regarding the issue itself, IMO most trans could be helped with counseling rather than surgery. Surgery rarely produces natural results, unless done at a very young age.

    Most of the feeling in the wrong body issue, is most likely social. Our society has taken masculinity and femininity to the extremes. For example, it used to be common for men to kiss and hug, regardless of their sexuality, and for women to do physical labor. By creating unnatural divisions between the sexes, we've made some people feel like they were born into the wrong gender.


    And playing with dolls makes you Gay... Right?

    Women have throughout history been workhorses as well as baby machines so what's this crap about physical labor making them want to be men..and men that kiss and hug makes some want to be women.. that's what is sounds like you're saying.

    I really think some of you guys should get out more in your communities and get to know some Transgendered people to get a better understanding of them as people on a personal level rather than just throwing out what you've read from a 1950's psychology textbook
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    Jun 14, 2009 1:40 PM GMT
    SeaSon saidI would assume people use the facilities that match their current appearance. There are very few places where genitilia should matter.

    Regarding the issue itself, IMO most trans could be helped with counseling rather than surgery. Surgery rarely produces natural results, unless done at a very young age.

    Most of the feeling in the wrong body issue, is most likely social. Our society has taken masculinity and femininity to the extremes. For example, it used to be common for men to kiss and hug, regardless of their sexuality, and for women to do physical labor. By creating unnatural divisions between the sexes, we've made some people feel like they were born into the wrong gender.


    I take issue with your argument about counseling being more effective than surgery. Assuming, as you stated in your last paragraph, that the problem is social, then I really don't see how individual therapy will produce effective results. Counseling is effective for the individual, it does not change society. Also, try researching the steps that need to be taken in order to actually have the surgery completed - it involves more than signing a few papers and handing over some cash.

    Second, assuming that the "wrong body issue" is purely a social issue is totally the wrong approach. Most psychological disorders are multidimensional, and are influenced by genetics, a social aspect, and an individual psychological aspect.



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    Jun 14, 2009 1:42 PM GMT
    maxxtowt said
    -What box do you check off when applying for a job?
    -What bathroom do you use at a restaurant or airport?
    -What lockerroom do you shower in at the gym?



    First let me say, I am COMPLETELY applauding Chastity Bono for always being open and proud of her sexuality. But things like this create an extremely "grey," area in our society, which can make people either more or less tolerant of the same sex oriented.

    I honestely don't have an opinion about this b/c there are WAY too many factors...I'm just curious about how you guys feel.


    I'm gonna use a MTF as an Example.

    -You check off female

    -You use the female restroom, But for the more manly looking MTF it has been known to cause problems. so you either have to hold it or go in a one person restroom.

    -If you have all your parts it should be fine to shower in a locker room.

    you have to go through therapy and have to Identify yourself as a women for at least 3 months or longer (not sure about the length) before you can start the process of getting your hormone shots,Implants,facial reconstruction and your vagina.


    Transgender people are people that believe they are in the wrong body.




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    Jun 14, 2009 2:04 PM GMT
    ErikTaurean saidI watched a great show on National Geographic last night on the show Taboo about transgenderism. It was very eye opening and enlightening, particularly who non western cultures have been embrasing it far longer than western cultures.


    Saw those episodes too. One thing that worries me though is the rise of cheap sex change clinics in countries like Thailand. The worrying thing is that they don't require their patients to undergo extensive psychological testing, which results in a higher number of 'regrets'. And those people give true transgenders a very bad name hence some of the reservations we see now.

    It's a very touchy subject, even more so because RealJock DOES have an FTM population, even if most of you seem to be unaware of that. It's always depressing to see gay men with transphobia, so please keep in mind that you are talking about PEOPLE, not merely a psychological phenomenon.

    And while I disagree with SeaSon's verdict of counseling being more effective as a 'solution', I do see that point that it's probably a result of the strict gender-division in almost all the current societies. But that's not going away any time soon. Not until we actually have the technology to make gender irrelevant.

    We are affected by our genders and sexual orientation deeply, whether you realize it or not. It can never be something you can just dismiss as illusions in our current stage of civilization.

    And anyway, if it makes them happy and it's not hurting anyone, who the hell are we to stop them?

    And yes, like LapinBlanc suggested there are several very good transgendered-themed movies out there - start with TransAmerica.
  • DrewT

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    Jun 14, 2009 4:51 PM GMT
    I'm hardly an expert on the trans community, but I do know a few and I've done a little bit of research.

    Just like gay men, transgendered people come in more than one variety. To be considered as transgendered, surgery is not required, nor are hormones. Many elect to take hormones, but not all elect for surgery.

    maxxtowt-What box do you check off when applying for a job?
    -What bathroom do you use at a restaurant or airport?
    -What lockerroom do you shower in at the gym?


    All: The gender one identifies with, typically.

    A lot of places now have gender neutral bathrooms, which is great progress.


    SeaSonMost of the feeling in the wrong body issue, is most likely social. Our society has taken masculinity and femininity to the extremes. For example, it used to be common for men to kiss and hug, regardless of their sexuality, and for women to do physical labor. By creating unnatural divisions between the sexes, we've made some people feel like they were born into the wrong gender.


    Division of labor between the sexes has occurred for a very long time, and I'm going to guess for a long time still. Not everyone can do everything at all times. It makes sense to divide roles between the sexes; it makes living easier and roles provide guidance. Not to say that they are the right roles or even good, but they do serve a purpose.
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    Jun 14, 2009 5:22 PM GMT
    I know quite a bit about this topic and I think you have to separate between ideal outcomes and reality. If it were possible to become FTM or MTF successfully and fully integrate into society, I'd be all for it. However, that's usually not the case, and very few conversions are truly undetectable.

    I don't believe most people elect to undergo gender reassignment just because they want different genitilia. The main reason for becoming trans has to do with feeling out of place in society and that ties directly with how we define masculinity and femininity today.
  • ShawnTX

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    Jun 14, 2009 5:31 PM GMT
    SeaSon said
    Regarding the issue itself, IMO most trans could be helped with counseling


    Same with gay people right?

    Before you make such a statement, use your own life as an example. Do you think that therapy would cure your homosexuality? I doubt you'll answer yes, so why would you think that therapy would cure people who were born the wrong sex.

    My best friend back home in Toronto is a mtf transgendered person. She's in her 50s now, and has been trans for more than half her life. She looks like a woman (and in fact looked like a woman before the surgery, an added plus for her), sounds like a woman and acts like a woman. Believe me, she's more of a lady than 99% of born women I know.

    I've also seen her naked. With a good surgeon, you will never tell the difference.

    Your statement comes from a lack of knowledge and understanding of the situation, through no fault of yours. Not all of us have close transgendered friends.
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    Jun 14, 2009 6:37 PM GMT
    ShawnTX said
    SeaSon said
    Regarding the issue itself, IMO most trans could be helped with counseling


    Same with gay people right?

    Before you make such a statement, use your own life as an example. Do you think that therapy would cure your homosexuality? I doubt you'll answer yes, so why would you think that therapy would cure people who were born the wrong sex.


    I am using my own life as an example, but thanks for pointing that out.
    Very few people are "born the wrong sex". Some people feel uncomfortable with their current gender and that's best discussed with a therapist.

    If someone wants to cross dress then by all means, but having irreversible surgery can have serious consequences and shouldn't be taken lightly. I'm glad everything worked out for your friend. Though, not sure that's a typical case...
  • ShawnTX

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    Jun 14, 2009 6:47 PM GMT
    SeaSon said
    Very few people are "born the wrong sex". Some people feel uncomfortable with their current gender and that's best discussed with a therapist.


    Statistics please.

    Oh, and FYI, cross dressing is a whole separate issue.
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    Jun 14, 2009 7:25 PM GMT
    SeaSon said
    ShawnTX said
    SeaSon said
    Regarding the issue itself, IMO most trans could be helped with counseling


    Same with gay people right?

    Before you make such a statement, use your own life as an example. Do you think that therapy would cure your homosexuality? I doubt you'll answer yes, so why would you think that therapy would cure people who were born the wrong sex.


    I am using my own life as an example, but thanks for pointing that out.
    Very few people are "born the wrong sex". Some people feel uncomfortable with their current gender and that's best discussed with a therapist.

    If someone wants to cross dress then by all means, but having irreversible surgery can have serious consequences and shouldn't be taken lightly. I'm glad everything worked out for your friend. Though, not sure that's a typical case...


    This really shows how little you know about the issue and the actual process.

    "Some people feel uncomfortable with their current gender and that's best discussed with a therapist."

    Someone is not even eligible to be considered for gender reassignment until they have had extensive, exhaustive counseling on the matter. The patient has to live for at least year as the gender they are to be reassigned to prior to the operation. And only when the therapist is convinced the patient is making the right decision will they sign off on the surgery.

    The point being, the medical and mental health community does not take this lightly. Every possible measure is taken to make sure the right decision is being made. You simply cannot decide, as you seem to be implying, that you feel like getting your plumbing swapped out. The hurdles are enormous and only the smallest fraction of those that have considered they might be in the wrong body, actually make it to the point where they are allowed to go through with the procedure.
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    Jun 14, 2009 7:26 PM GMT
    This isn't a question of stats, since I have no idea how you could possibly evaluate such an issue. Not even sure what we're arguing about anymore icon_smile.gif

    I'm happy for your friend, I just think counseling is always a good option.

    I don't agree with the comparison to gayness. You always have the option to choose a straight lifestyle, if you wish. However, once trans people undergo surgery, it's an irreversible decision. So, I'd be extremely cautious before encouraging it and rejecting therapy as a viable option.
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    Jun 14, 2009 7:33 PM GMT
    SeaSon said

    I'm happy for your friend, I just think counseling is always a good option.



    Again, they cannot even reach post operative status unless they have undergone an incredible amount of counseling. Part of the counseling process is the determination on whether or not the person is indeed truly transgendered or whether they are someone who is only identifying as transgendered as a means of deflecting or coping with other issues.
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    Jun 14, 2009 7:37 PM GMT
    Guerilla, you're right. Though, surely you know that a lot of people choose to have the surgery done overseas for those reasons.
  • ShawnTX

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    Jun 14, 2009 7:40 PM GMT
    You made it about stats when you said this:

    Very few people are "born the wrong sex".

    So I want stats on how few people are actually born the wrong sex. If there are no stats, your statement in baseless.

    SeaSon said
    I don't agree with the comparison to gayness. You always have the option to choose a straight lifestyle, if you wish.


    icon_question.gificon_question.gificon_question.gif

    Your gay and you live a straight lifestyle, end result: unhappiness, depression
    Your born in the wrong body but do nothing to change it, end result: unhapiness, depression.

    No amount of therapy will eliminate the unhappiness and depression.

    But it's kind of a moot point anyways. Your above statement that I've quoted here shows a huge lack of intelligence on your part, making a serious discussion pointless.
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    Jun 14, 2009 7:51 PM GMT
    Born the wrong sex, refers to Hermaphrodites. That's something measurable and verifiable.

    Believing you're in the wrong body, unfortunately, is not. Perhaps in the future we'll understand exactly how and why this happens.

    I honestly don't know why turn this into such a personal attack. All I suggested was that gender confusion can be helped with therapy. Nobody's saying people with gender confusion will magically be "cured".
  • ShawnTX

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    Jun 14, 2009 7:58 PM GMT
    Hermaphrodites are organisms with both male and female reproductive organs, not organisms born the wrong sex.

    Helped to what end? If you're not talking about a cure, your talking about using therapy to convince the individual that what they are feeling is wrong, and they should reconsider their intentions of having reassignment surgery. That will leave them still confused, unhappy, and depressed. That type of help I can do without.

    As for the personal attack, it was merely an observation. I don't have stats, just an opinion, which is the same as facts, apparently.
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    Jun 14, 2009 8:14 PM GMT
    Hermaphrodites sometimes get assigned the wrong sex after birth, because one set of genitilia is more prominent. Then later in life they feel confused. That's what I was referring to. The Hermaphrodite phenomenon seems to occur in approximately 1 in 10,000 births. So, it is pretty rare.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

    ShawnTXYour above statement that I've quoted here shows a huge lack of intelligence on your part,


    is hardly an observation icon_smile.gif
  • ShawnTX

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    Jun 14, 2009 8:21 PM GMT
    SeaSon saidHermaphrodites sometimes get assigned the wrong sex after birth, because one set of genitilia is more prominent. Then later in life they feel confused. That's what I was referring to.


    My apologies. I didn't realize what you said and what you meant were two different things.