The burka - is it just so much titillation?

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    Jun 19, 2009 7:48 PM GMT
    France may try to ban it in public.

    Bill Maher's take is best.

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    Jun 19, 2009 9:17 PM GMT
    3493705540_3a8808f3f6.jpg?v=03493705488_0076bb60d8_o.jpg
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    it's so poised for a comeback.
  • Bunjamon

    Posts: 3161

    Jun 19, 2009 9:29 PM GMT
    I can see both sides of the debate. The French want those people who move to their country to adopt the French way of life, which doesn't include wearing a burka. I feel that this is a reasonable expectation for immigrants. However, it's also wrong to force people to abandon their cultural practices, which may include a certain style of dress.

    By the way, this thread has the most vag of any RJ thread I've ever seen. icon_eek.gif
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    Jun 19, 2009 9:41 PM GMT
    Burkas Scare me. You don't know if there is a person or a creature underneath them.


    I think one of them Put on her childs burkaicon_redface.gif
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    Jun 19, 2009 10:47 PM GMT
    By the way, this thread has the most vag of any RJ thread I've ever seen.

    One vagina, two vagina, three vagina, four........icon_lol.gif
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    Jun 19, 2009 10:53 PM GMT
    It's easy to hide stuff under a burka.
    The burka is both the epitome of conceit and submission.
    It says "You are not worthy to see my face. You are not my equal."
    and it says "The dominant male in my life rules over me."
  • dglater

    Posts: 255

    Jun 19, 2009 10:54 PM GMT
    french are way out of their fucking heads again.

    "We cannot disguise hostility towards any religion behind the pretence of liberalism."
    -obama
  • dglater

    Posts: 255

    Jun 19, 2009 10:55 PM GMT
    McGay saidIt's easy to hide stuff under a burka.
    The burka is both the epitome of conceit and submission.
    It says "You are not worthy to see my face. You are not my equal."
    and it says "The dominant male in my life rules over me."


    no it doesn't stop being ignorant.
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    Jun 20, 2009 12:50 AM GMT
    McGay saidFrance may try to ban it in public.

    Bill Maher's take is best.





    FUNNY AS HELL!
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    Jun 20, 2009 12:57 AM GMT
    dglater saidfrench are way out of their fucking heads again.

    "We cannot disguise hostility towards any religion behind the pretence of liberalism."
    -obama


    I agree with Obama on this one. Obama knows the mindset of muslim women better than the average western folk. I don't think muslim women who wear the burqa do it out of deference to their "dominant males", they see it as security and respect.
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    Jun 20, 2009 7:05 AM GMT
    Are you sure they aren't wearin' the burka to hide their bruises?

    Only a fool or a naif or a thug would think this has anything to do with security or respect.
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    Jun 20, 2009 7:45 AM GMT
    I have been in Dubai for the last 7 months and I think Burkas are very degrating and sexist to women.....sure, let woman whom have the choice to wear the Burka wear it, but most women who wear it, don't have the choice. It's a man's world for sure.....straight man's world.

    I love Bill Maher
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    Jun 20, 2009 8:13 AM GMT
    I remember our school's Principal had not allowed Zainab, a muslim girl, and her sister to wear pants and demanded that they come to school dressed in the grls school uniform- like every other child- a knee length skirt.

    The girls father was upset, but I recollect the girls being silenty relieved that the Principal had put her foot down. They just wanted to fit in.

    I dont think the Principal was being insensitive to their cultural practices, I think she was looking out for Zainab. And in this case, the two were mutually exclusive.



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    Jun 20, 2009 10:25 AM GMT
    dglater said
    McGay saidIt's easy to hide stuff under a burka.
    The burka is both the epitome of conceit and submission.
    It says "You are not worthy to see my face. You are not my equal."
    and it says "The dominant male in my life rules over me."


    no it doesn't stop being ignorant.


    Please enlighten me. What does the burka signify?
  • dglater

    Posts: 255

    Jun 20, 2009 6:31 PM GMT
    do you see jewish women covering their hair and wearing baggy skirts, in their view and in their CHOICE of doing it they display modesty, and view that thier body is only for thier husband to see.

    Look at Turkey muslim women there FIGHT to have the right to wear a burka when the government took away their right to wear it in public places. Believe it or not, not all women are forced to wear it, in fact most want to wear it on their own.

    sad to see 100 years ago Jews faced same shit Muslim face now in Europe. I guess that shows what Europe really is.

    what its not however... its not a Liberal free society like European think of them self.
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    Jun 20, 2009 6:34 PM GMT
    I'm starting to consider wearing one. The Florida sun is killing me...icon_lol.gif
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    Jun 20, 2009 7:08 PM GMT
    this is insulting... have some respect guys. My mother wore a hijab instead of a tichel. Its a sign of reverence to the G-d of their faith. This is as insulting to some as someone calling us faggots and so on... shame on you guys.
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    Jun 20, 2009 7:09 PM GMT
    dglater saiddo you see jewish women covering their hair and wearing baggy skirts, in their view and in their CHOICE of doing it they display modesty, and view that thier body is only for thier husband to see.


    my mother was jewish and wore a head scarf her entire life. it depends what kind of jew you speak to. most Ashkenazi jews dont but Mezrahi and Sephardic for the most part do.
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    Jun 20, 2009 7:19 PM GMT
    Discussion surrounding the Burka in mainstream debate is often based upon Orientalist assumptions from an extremely Eurocentric view of what it means for a woman to be "liberated".

    Feminism, in and of itself, is not one idea of how women should be liberated. Studying the history of feminism, the main movements in feminist history have emerged from upper middle class or upper class white, European and American women. even as women, they fail to represent the great majority of the world's women.

    western liberal feminism has many problems, both historically and presently. the concept of liberal feminism is to "add women and stir". it doesnt get a the core issues revolved around the "feminine" - what it means, what it implies/entails, how it is socially constructed, how it can be changed, etc.

    the Third Wave feminist movement emerged with poorer women who weren't white, and it was meant to be a driving force against liberal feminists cultural imperialism - the idea that what is good for the white, upper middle class western woman is good for every woman.

    even the Afghan war was justified on the grounds of "women's liberation."

    regarding the burka itself, this is very linear thinking to describe it as "oppressive" - as, in fact, there has even been much academic research on this within Middle Eastern history and feminist theory, that the burka can act as a liberating force. often, women of the Middle East can view western women as having their power derived simply from their sexuality. the burka removes the objectification of women as sexual objects, and forces women to find sources of power through other sources - they gain respect, do not have to focus as much on their makeup/hair/looks, etc, and focus on what they see as priorities.

    also, western women can be seen as equally, if not more so, oppressed, as we have Madison Avenue telling women how to look, what to wear, what makeup to wear, clothes to buy, how skinny one should be, what the "ideal" woman is - which is a more advanced form of oppression, as it is an internalized psychological oppression, much more powerful than wearing a burka.

    the burka can be seen as liberating women from these constraints and mental oppression.

    people must step back and come to realize that "western" ideas and concepts, are not the only ideas and concepts... and usually, they're wrong.

    the entire history of liberal western feminism is tainted with sordid affairs and nefarious interconnections. one liberal feminist "hero" was Margaret Sanger, who was a prominent figure in the United States feminist movement in the early 20th century, as she was the founder of Planned Parenthood and was the primary progenitor behind the abortion movement.

    however, what most do not know about her is that her funding came from the top eugenics foundations of the day, like the Rockefeller and Carnegie Foundations, which funded her movement in an effort to target the reduction in population of black Americans - which was, (and arguably still is) the target population for Planned Parenthood. "Get them to reduce their own population by choice" was the idea. Commercials for Planned Parenthood today still feature young black women as the target audience.

    Margaret Sanger wrote letters back and forth with the top eugenics "scientists" and foundations and bankers who funded it all saying that "we need to recruit black leaders because they won't trust us" and saying horrifically racist things. when Hitler began his eugenics programs and "race science" (which was also courtesy of the Rockefeller Foundation), Eugenical News published an article by Sanger praising the Nazi experiment, and she even later gave Hitler an award.

    [See: "War Against the Weak: Eugenics, and America's Campaign to Create a Master Race", by Edwin Black]

    How about instead of promoting cultural imperialism, we let people in other places of the world determine their own fate and future, and we focus on figuring out our own. And we are delusional if we think we are superior in any way and have found the "right way" to build a society, a fact that will become glaringly obvious in the near future.
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    Jun 20, 2009 7:29 PM GMT
    MeOhMy said the burka can be seen as liberating women from these constraints and mental oppression.

    If you believe the burka is such a liberating force, why not try wearing one for a few days, especially in Dubai-like heat, and report back on how liberating it felt.
  • dglater

    Posts: 255

    Jun 20, 2009 7:42 PM GMT
    TexDef07 said
    MeOhMy said the burka can be seen as liberating women from these constraints and mental oppression.

    If you believe the burka is such a liberating force, why not try wearing one for a few days, especially in Dubai-like heat, and report back on how liberating it felt.


    oh there you go!

    its hot in dubai so lets Ban burkas.

    beside... Women in Dubai are NOT required to wear a bukra under the law.

    it is their choice.

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    Jun 20, 2009 7:45 PM GMT
    dglater said
    TexDef07 said
    MeOhMy said the burka can be seen as liberating women from these constraints and mental oppression.

    If you believe the burka is such a liberating force, why not try wearing one for a few days, especially in Dubai-like heat, and report back on how liberating it felt.


    oh there you go!

    its hot in dubai so lets Ban burkas.

    beside... Women in Dubai are NOT required to wear a bukra under the law.

    it is their choice.



    exactly my point.

    Texdef just parrots the usual talking points that Muslim women are oppressed everywhere and therefore, that Islam itself is oppressive, which justifies the new "crusade" against Islam and the Middle East in the name of the "war on terror".

    you may say i am making exaggerated claims and jumping to conclusions, but that is how these opinions are manipulated and used.

    why dont you try talking to a woman who has made the CHOICE to wear a burka and see what she has to say about it. maybe you would be surprised.
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    Jun 20, 2009 7:47 PM GMT
    and p.s. - look up the term "Orientalism" because any discussion on Islam, the Middle East, and especially women within the Middle East exudes and wreaks of Orientalist paradigms and opinions.
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    Jun 20, 2009 9:53 PM GMT
    dglater said

    no it doesn't stop being ignorant.


    You think?

    Have you read the scriptures (Hadith mostly, extra-Quranic, much like the Talmud in the Tanakh) on which the wearing of the veils was based upon?

    Do read them if you have the time. And while you're at it, also try to find out what happens to women who get raped. Or the fact that men can divorce their wives at will while women must endure the harshest treatment with no hope at all of gaining freedom. Or 'honor killings'. It's in fact almost a mirror image of how women were regarded by the Jews in the Old Testament.

    MeOhMythe burka can be seen as liberating women from these constraints and mental oppression.

    people must step back and come to realize that "western" ideas and concepts, are not the only ideas and concepts... and usually, they're wrong.


    I don't recommend the banning of burkhas either. It has become a comforting sign of religion for muslim women and not wearing it makes them feel 'unclean'. And no matter how much I disagree with that, let them be. Because over the years, it's function in most cases has changed from the original purpose of hiding a woman's face to avoid tempting men into committing a sin with them to a symbol of piety in the same way that western women wear conservative dress and crucifix necklaces.

    This is not the case in theocracies like the taliban, because they do FORCE their women to wear the all-concealing chadri. How could that not be misogyny? Try reading an account of how Afghan women dressed BEFORE the taliban came into power, and what happens if they are caught by the mutaween (religious police) without the proper head-to-toe covering or wearing make-up, and you'll realize it's original intentions far more clearly. Same with Iran.

    Though more liberal muslim nations (Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, etc.) are less stringent on burkhas anyway. Here in Southeast Asia, women just wear a transparent scarf over their head. Which they take off at times in public, something that is expressly forbidden in conservative Islam.

    And btw, to any one claims it's simply a case of culture and not actual misogyny of the arab society, you don't know the half of it either. I'm filipino, our women have been servants for arabs for decades now. Do try hearing some of the horror stories too sometime. They get VERY LITTLE coverage from international news. Only ones that get publicized are when it involves a first world national.

    You're all in first world countries of course, what should you care about third world women servants? It may surprise you that there are hundreds if not thousands of these cases over the span of decades. If Zimatar was still here, you could have asked him too. And about Dubai's mutaween as well. The mutaween don't really harass first-worlders much, so they're hardly ever noticed except by the lower caste migrant workers. Do try to read them, then get back to me about how arab nations are not really misogynistic.

    This subject is touchy for me, because my cousin's wife worked in Jordan. That started the only real tragedy in my family. Which I won't discuss here.

    http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&section=0&article=101797&d=26&m=10&y=2007

    http://www.dole.gov.ph/news/details.asp?id=N000000608

    http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/pinoy-migration/03/10/09/filipinas-arab-states-hiv-vulnerable

    http://www.bulatlat.com/news/4-20/4-20-distressed.html

    http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/national_world/stories/2009/01/19/filipino_maids_0119.ART_ART_01-19-09_A7_VRCJ4OH.html?sid=101

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7207094.stm

    http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=3960

    http://www.irinnews.org/report.aspx?reportid=27089

    http://pinoyoverseas.net/news/middle-east/asian-migrant-women-vulnerable-to-hiv-in-arab-states-%E2%80%93-un-study/

    http://www.bulatlat.com/2007/10/maltreated-ofws-recount-ordeals-feel-pain-ofws-death-row

    Note that I am NOT anti-Islam. I do however believe that to refuse to call something as obvious as this as NOT misogynistic is political correctness bordering on hypocrisy. I do not encourage blanket-accusations, but in this case, it IS justified and it is the truth. Heck, I have female muslim friends here, and even THEY are afraid of going to the middle east because in their words they are "afraid of the arab men, they don't respect women." or as one told me she was afraid of going even though she was given the opportunity because she was pretty (and she was, and married with a child), and even if she is muslim too, that doesn't really matter much since she's still an asian woman. She does however, wear a scarf over her head, as part of her islamic identity. But since when does a scarf compare to a Chadri?
    These are filipina muslims:
    wwwjv461.jpg
    These are Afghan women in chadris:
    150px-Burqa_Afghanistan_01.jpg

    So stop trying to excuse it as simply part of the culture. This is not a westernized opinion either.
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    Jun 21, 2009 12:18 AM GMT
    I was not trying to "excuse" the practice of forcing women to wear the burka, I was just explaining that the act of wearing a burka is not a symbol of oppression in and of itself. more often than not, it IS a choice.

    in instances where it isn't a choice, this obviously is oppression. but oppression comes in many forms, and to state that because it is USED as a form of oppression, it therefore is, in and of itself, a symbol of oppression, is inaccurate.

    you mentioned the Taliban and their theocratic regime. I agree that it is important to look into what came before the Taliban. Afghanistan was a left-leaning, progressive country where women were able to dress as they chose, they drove, worked in government and even business. however, because the country was socialist-leaning, and was building tied with the Soviet Union, US foreign policy took an aggressive stance against the country.

    in 1978 and 1979, the US undertook what is known as the "Strategy of Tension" in which they would covertly support destabilizing and militant Islamic groups to come to power within and/or destabilize a nation, so that they do not build ties with the USSR, which was viewed by theocratic elements as an abomination for its atheist structure and society. though this would negatively effect the US and British in many instances where they were not able to get a strong hold over a nation, it achieved its primary aim of preventing the USSR from expanding its influence in the oil rich Gulf and natural gas rich Caspian and central asian regions.

    this is when the US, through the CIA, which used Pakistan and its intelligence services, the ISI, to funnel money and weapons to a group of radical Islamist militants called the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, which with their growing influence, spurred the invasion of the Soviets to attempt to go into Afghanistan in support of the left-leaning government. this sparked the Soviet-Afghan war, which lasted until 1989, when the Soviets were defeated, and after which the Northern Alliance took a weak hold on power for sometime, funding themselves through the drug trade in opium.

    However, in 1994, a civil war broke out, and the Taliban, funded by the US, covertly, of course, took power. The US was the prime financier of the Taliban throughout their entire theocratic rule, and after the NEW Afghan war, they reinstalled the war lords and drug lords of the previous regime, who have continued the drug trade. women are NOT better off, and still suffer greatly in Afghanistan.

    America also, obviously, is the prime supporter of the theocratic Saudi Arabian regime, where women have virtually no rights.

    Associating an entire religion, however, with the practice of theocratic states ruling in the name of such a religion, is not a good idea. The practice of theocracies is a far cry from the original intent of the religion.

    The same can be said of the US, where the extreme interaction between Church and State should not be representative of Christianity as a whole. Christianity in establishment, organized function is a far cry from its origins.

    So too, is Islam.