Opinions wanted

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 20, 2009 3:31 AM GMT
    I just had a conversation with a cousin. Now, you know that small inner circle of friends you have that are the closest to you. This guy would be one of those. We had not seen each other for awhile and he stopped by today to see me. Bear in mind that I am closeted, no one here knows I am gay.
    We talked about generalities, but gradually came around to politics, as we usually do.

    COUSIN; I just don't think we should let the gays get married, its a man and a woman (keep in mind he brought this up, not me)
    ME; That's just tradition. If their having the use of the word bothers you, I doubt they care about that. Spousal rights are what they are wanting.
    COUSIN; I guess that wouldn't hurt anything. I just think it would have been alot better if they hadn't let 'it' become acceptable
    ME; I didn't know they had
    COUSIN; You see it all over the tv, it warps these young people into trying that stuff
    ME; You think they choose it?
    COUSIN; I think it's a choice, they choose to sin
    ME; I don't think it's a choice, I just can see why anybody would set themselves up to be right in front of the persecution howizer
    COUSIN; Acccording to the Holy Scriptures it is a sin to god
    ME; Actually the scripture uses the word abomination, you know of course in the same area of the bible it also says that it's an abomination to eat shell fish?
    COUSIN; Really?
    ME; Yup, so why aren't the church people all up in arms about red lobster? You think it's a choice because that's what we were told in church
    COUSIN; No, I think it's a choice because it's not in nature. You don't see two male dogs going at it, or cows, or anything.
    ME; I guess so, I still don't think it's a choice, and I'll tell you why. (another cousin from the other side of the family) had an uncle, did you know that?
    COUSIN; No
    ME; He had an uncle that grew up around here in this backward area in the 60's-70's when there was no influence on tv. In his early twenties he came out and told his uber catholic parents that he was gay. They disowned him, said to them he was dead. His sisters did the same. Now, your telling me he did that just because he liked something sinful? Lost his whole family? I can't see it.
    COUSIN; I still think it's a choice because it's not in nature.

    The conversation went on to other subjects. (I could not press the issue too much since it has not entered his darkest imagination that I am gay) I think it surprised him that I went the way I did on that, but he must not have been too upset about it because before he left he asked me to be in his wedding.

    NOW! for the opinion part. How did I do? What I really needed was something to prove him wrong about the nature part. Off the cuff I did not know anything. I am not going to bring it up again, but if he does I would like to be more prepared.

    THERE IS always the nuclear option. If he brings it up again I could always just say "I know it's not a choice because I am gay, and I did not choose it" But just like the real nuclear stuff, I can't use it.

    All right lets have it....


  • HndsmKansan

    Posts: 16311

    Jun 20, 2009 3:53 AM GMT
    Well you sort of placated the whole thing. If I were to give you a grade, I'd give you a C. I like the "shellfish" comment, but in reality, no minds were changed, he didn't have anything to consider later..... his closed mind remains shut.... and you made no progress toward preparing him for the day when you tell him your gay (if you do). Thats your business, nobody elses.

    Now you might ask, well what would I have done? I'm not you and I don't know much about your cousin.... his age, his education, etc... or what your relationship is with him or the rest of your family.

    Knowing me and my desire to push boundries, I might have ask him how he'd feel if a friend of his suddenly came out and admitted he was gay... and let the conversation move that way. It wouldn't have been the "nuclear option" (as you referred)... but I can assure you.. he would have walked away thinking about that conversation.

    And why not a nuclear option? At least you could "breathe the free air" as you state in your profile..........icon_confused.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 20, 2009 4:19 AM GMT
    Personally you are 35 it is high time to come out and if you do so you just might change his opinion. If he really doesn't think it is nature you should get him a copy of
    610x.jpg

    it is the story of gay penguins. They were gay penguins at the central park zoo. The zoo brought in female penguins to try to get the males to split up, but they refused, the male penguins then adopted a rock and treated it like an egg. the next year the zoo keepers gave the penguins a real egg that had been abandoned by its parents, they sat on the egg as any other parents would and hatched and cared for little Tango, just like any other penguin parent would have except tango had two daddies.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 20, 2009 4:21 AM GMT
    I'll give you a B+.

    My rationale: there are arguments against, "It's not in nature." There ARE gay dogs who go at it with each other. My grandfather shot his gay dog. icon_lol.gif He didn't shoot his gay grandson or gay granddaughter. Do a search on the gay penguins. A zoo in Germany has just given them an egg to raise, and they're doing swimmingly. A few years ago a zoo in New Zealand did the same thing.

    The essential thing to remember for making a change to the world is this: You'll never change an extremist, but that doesn't matter, there are only a few extremists. It's the moderates who matter, they're worth your time trying to change. It's moderates with the largest vote and it's moderates who will eventually give all gay people equal rights.

    Work on your cousin if you like, but don't waste too much energy on him, there are so many other people without damaged minds for you to play with.
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    Jun 20, 2009 4:25 AM GMT
    Hndsmkansan
    My cousin is 28, and educated in a private christian school. I am older than he is, kinda like a big brother. We are pretty close. Gone on vacation together etc.

    You're right, I did not change his mind. Normally I wouldn't have said anything, but I couldn't let it lie.

    Oh ya, with my 'support system' the only place I can "Breathe the Free Air" is on this website.
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    Jun 20, 2009 4:30 AM GMT
    chungo
    If I came out to him it would sure jerk him up short.



    makeumyne
    I'm glad your grandpa didn't decide that shooting applied to ALL gays!

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 20, 2009 4:39 AM GMT
    You can change your cousin's mind. He doesn't sound like an extremist, he sounds dogmatic. Speaking of which, the dogs on my farm, bulls, roosters, cats, etc. all tried a little gay sex. Nature is exactly where this stuff happens.

    He's uneducated, and you've done pretty good so far. Keep at it.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 20, 2009 6:44 AM GMT
    Depends on how far you want to take it. There's a lot of literature about it indicating that it is a very natural occurrence. My personal opinion is that people fail to decipher the difference between sexual orientation and sexual deviance. Your sexual orientation's simply who you're programmed to be attracted to. You really can't help that. Sexual deviance is sexual acting out and would include things such as sexual assault, molestation, paying for hookers, exposing yourself in public etc. etc. It's about the action, the power, the control, the risk, the rush...or whatever it is you get out of it...not about attraction to the person themselves. People who don't know any better put homosexuality into the sexual deviance category because it's something they're not used to, they may have had a bad experience, or only been exposed to poor media portrayals.

    It's true that gay people are becoming more accepted, and characters are being portrayed on TV. However, I cannot imagine the life of a sex offender, someone into beastiality, or a hooker being portrayed on a light hearted sitcom or having a talk show or whatever, or hosting a reality tv show. It's just not kosher stuff, and it has nothing to do with being gay or straight. There are a lot of messed up people of all orientations out there. It'll never be trendy to be best friends with a serial rapist who's out on parole. And you'll never go on a double date with a guy and his goat.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 20, 2009 6:53 AM GMT
    you did fairly well. like mickey said, animals try it. there have been documented cases of "bi-sexual" primates. also there are a lot of other topics to bring up in laviticus, watch the west wing clip on gays, it has some good points.

    you can also bring up the idea of the new covenant, and how christ himself never mentioned anything having to do with homosexuality, though it didn't exist by our definition today (the greeks and the romans had a completely different system of sexual classification based on gender and the role played, please pm if you want more information).

    if you want to challenge him further, you can bring up the repeated mistranslations of the bible. for instance, did you know that during the renaissance moses was depicted with horns because of a wrongly translated word?
  • Tiller66

    Posts: 380

    Jun 20, 2009 9:20 AM GMT
    It was'nt too bad.Myself any time someone brings up the it's not natural Iask how many things do we do that we can't do naturaly.We can't fly but we have planes that can that we made,when someone has bad eyesight if we just did the natural thing then you could'nt wear glasses/contacts so you could see.And as far as young kids being curious are you saying that you did'nt wonder about sex in general before you had it.But that's just me.
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    Jun 20, 2009 9:29 AM GMT
    Runninchlt,
    In earlier part of the conversation he did some comparisons. When he was pressing his idea that it's a choice he said "some people like to molest children". He also compared being gay to serial killings, and a whole bunch of other really sick stuff.
    I replied that I didn't think it was the same thing at all. I said "these people aren't hurting anyone". He didn't go back to that, so I either changed his mind about it, or he thought it was a weak point.

    The problem is, he will not see that 'programming' that you mentioned.

    While we were talking, his ideas were making me think "Wow, if you came out your cousin is going to put you in the same catagory as rapists, murderers, child molesters etc. Wow".
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 20, 2009 10:39 AM GMT
    "While we were talking, his ideas were making me think "Wow, if you came out your cousin is going to put you in the same catagory as rapists, murderers, child molesters etc. Wow"."

    Well, he already has. He just doesn't know it.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 20, 2009 11:04 AM GMT
    A little off topic, but:

    Dude, you are 35 and single! Have you ever been married? Do you date women regularly?

    Don't assume anyone thinks you are straight.

    Here's my take on your conversation: He wanted to know for sure whether you are gay, so he brought up the topic of gay marriage. Now he knows for sure that you are gay, but he "loves you anyway" and still wants you in his wedding.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 20, 2009 11:25 AM GMT
    You had the perfect opportunity to take up for "US" and you didn't! Why not? icon_eek.gif Many on this site do not approve when I use the term Breeder. But it fits here....Breeders with these ignorant and STUPID religious ideas are Our problem.
    Why are you afraid to come out? Believe me, it is the most liberating thing you can do for yourself. You really do owe it to yourself.
    But more importantly you owe it to ALL of Us to come out to dolts like your cousin who are so entrenced in their bloody STUPID religious beliefs!!! icon_mad.gif
    Cheers,
    Keith
    icon_evil.gif
  • NursePractiti...

    Posts: 232

    Jun 20, 2009 11:35 AM GMT
    A quick search on Scroogle.org would turn up plenty of studies that homosexuality is found in nature. Dolphins, dogs, etc. If he want's to get into the biblical stuff, remember even if it was Adam and Eve, that's only two people. At some point someone did it with his sister, uncle, etc. The bible claims divorce, killing, wearing clothes made of more than one kind of thread, women not covering their heads in church, and of course my favorite honoring the sabbath day. Since when is the sabbath on Sunday? Last time I checked with the Jewish community it was Saturday. Plus if you work on the sabbath your supposed to be stoned. Non virgin? Stoned. Eat pork? Stoned. I would have given a C+, but only because he caught you off guard and you probably didn't expect to have that kind of conversation at that time. Look some stuff up, makes notes and citations. It probably won't change his mind but maybe give him something to think about.
  • HndsmKansan

    Posts: 16311

    Jun 20, 2009 12:04 PM GMT
    DODGY1974 saidHndsmkansan
    My cousin is 28, and educated in a private christian school. I am older than he is, kinda like a big brother. We are pretty close. Gone on vacation together etc.

    You're right, I did not change his mind. Normally I wouldn't have said anything, but I couldn't let it lie.

    Oh ya, with my 'support system' the only place I can "Breathe the Free Air" is on this website.



    In giving you a C.. and I think thats a fair grade based on your conversation,
    I didn't expect you to change any minds... that wasn't my thinking, the point was to at least to get him to think.. to chip away at boundries. You don't have to choose "the nuclear option" to do that.. but to move boundries.

    Keep up the work, think about what you might want to say to him next time.
    Give some thought to it....
    and btw, do you ever expect really to tell him? Or is that something that is out of the question?
  • somedaytoo

    Posts: 704

    Jun 20, 2009 12:27 PM GMT
    Rome wasn't built in a day, so don't expect that you can always change someone's mind in a single conversation. You planted seeds of doubt in what he thought was natural. Now he has something to think about. Well done...
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    Jun 20, 2009 1:05 PM GMT
    wyrln,
    This is going to make you certain your opinion is correct. I have never been married, I do not date, I live alone.
    I assume everyone thinks I'm straight because if that were not the case the windows in my house would be broken on a regular basis, tires slashed etc.(yes this has happened to gay people here if they let it be known)
    Your idea about not assuming is logical, but my cousin does not think I am gay because @5'11" and 230lbs I don't fit the gay stereo type.(his) I also think that he would not allow himself to think that. He's known me all his life, how could he not know?

    Musclequest
    I did the best I could to stick up for us. I can't just come out and tell him because my life here would be over. I'm sure it is a great feeling to be out, but my family is pretty much like Arrons in Latter Days except they are Baptist not Mormon. There would be NO exceptance.


    Hndsmkansan
    I don't know if I will ever tell any of them, but I should.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 20, 2009 1:43 PM GMT
    DODGY1974 saidI just had a conversation with a cousin. Now, you know that small inner circle of friends you have that are the closest to you. This guy would be one of those. We had not seen each other for awhile and he stopped by today to see me. Bear in mind that I am closeted, no one here knows I am gay.
    We talked about generalities, but gradually came around to politics, as we usually do.

    COUSIN; I just don't think we should let the gays get married, its a man and a woman (keep in mind he brought this up, not me)
    ME; That's just tradition. If their having the use of the word bothers you, I doubt they care about that. Spousal rights are what they are wanting.
    COUSIN; I guess that wouldn't hurt anything. I just think it would have been alot better if they hadn't let 'it' become exceptable
    ME; I didn't know they had
    COUSIN; You see it all over the tv, it warps these young people into trying that stuff
    ME; You think they choose it?
    COUSIN; I think it's a choice, they choose to sin
    ME; I don't think it's a choice, I just can see why anybody would set themselves up to be right in front of the persecution howizer
    COUSIN; Acccording to the Holy Scriptures it is a sin to god
    ME; Actually the scripture uses the word abomination, you know of course in the same area of the bible it also says that it's an abomination to eat shell fish?
    COUSIN; Really?
    ME; Yup, so why aren't the church people all up in arms about red lobster? You think it's a choice because that's what we were told in church
    COUSIN; No, I think it's a choice because it's not in nature. You don't see two male dogs going at it, or cows, or anything.
    ME; I guess so, I still don't think it's a choice, and I'll tell you why. Jeremy(another cousin from the other side of the family) had an uncle, did you know that?
    COUSIN; No
    ME; He had an uncle that grew up around here in this backward area in the 60's-70's when there was no influence on tv. In his early twenties he came out and told his uber catholic parents that he was gay. They disowned him, said to them he was dead. His sisters did the same. Now, your telling me he did that just because he liked something sinful? Lost his whole family? I can't see it.
    COUSIN; I still think it's a choice because it's not in nature.

    The conversation went on to other subjects. (I could not press the issue too much since it has not entered his darkest imagination that I am gay) I think it surprised him that I went the way I did on that, but he must not have been too upset about it because before he left he asked me to be in his wedding.

    NOW! for the opinion part. How did I do? What I really needed was something to prove him wrong about the nature part. Off the cuff I did not know anything. I am not going to bring it up again, but if he does I would like to be more prepared.

    THERE IS always the nuclear option. If he brings it up again I could always just say "I know it's not a choice because I am gay, and I did not choose it" But just like the real nuclear stuff, I can't use it.

    All right lets have it....



    I'd give you a D.

    Why didn't you ask him if and when he made the choice to be straight?
  • styrgan

    Posts: 2017

    Jun 20, 2009 1:57 PM GMT
    somedaytoo saidRome wasn't built in a day, so don't expect that you can always change someone's mind in a single conversation. You planted seeds of doubt in what he thought was natural. Now he has something to think about. Well done...


    I agree, these kind of things take time. Definitely a B performance for the first run around.

    As you admitted, you were speaking off the cuff, so I think it's to be expected that your arguments lacked force. In addition to research on biological bases and gay penguins, maybe you should do some research into scriptural passages (including the New Testament ones).
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    Jun 20, 2009 2:08 PM GMT




    Hey DODGY1974, we're with Styrgan and give you a B for having to think on your feet while dancing around the abyss of family and community condemnation.

    This will help your next encounter.

    http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx

    Homosexuality is found enormously in the animal kingdom.

    You might try this, "Perhaps God is testing us all, to see who will cast the first stone. After all, the book does say, 'Whatsoever you do to the least of these (my brothers), you do unto me.' "


  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 20, 2009 2:34 PM GMT
    Here's another short article about the natural occurrence of homosexuality, that I had previously posted. Your cousin's reliance upon "nature" as an argument is based upon an arbitrary human cultural construct, not a distinction that actually exists in nature itself. But he certainly echoes the playbook of the Religious Right.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31390058/ns/technology_and_science-science/
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    Jun 20, 2009 3:08 PM GMT
    MadeNUSA,
    I didn't ask him when he had chosen to be straight because I didn't think of it. The whole topic put me off balance, I never saw that coming. We talk about political stuff all the time, gay marriage or why people are gay has never been mentioned before.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 20, 2009 3:21 PM GMT
    DODGY1974 said gay marriage or why people are gay has never been mentioned before.

    Do you think it's purely by chance that he brought up the subject? Maybe he's trying to give you an opening to come out. If you're 35, single, and without a hetero dating life, even the most naive observers can't miss the obvious reason.
    Try to have some faith in your family's human decency. Surely a lifetime of family ties has earned you enough love and respect that they will support you when you open up to them.
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    Jun 20, 2009 3:51 PM GMT
    I was shocked when you mentioned that "it does not occur in nature"
    A friend of mine is a biophysicist at NYU; we had this conversation the other night. Homosexuality is not only present, but a very necessary part of sexual selection to guarantee the diversity of any species. So, if you ask me, your friend is going AGAINST nature in his assumption that something should not "be let" to be. Could over 450 species be deliberately sinning against God?

    http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/the_gay_animal_kingdom/