Any Twelvers on RJ? ...Islamic question about al-Mahdi

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 20, 2009 6:44 PM GMT
    Ayatullah Khamenei mentioned the 12th or "hidden" imam, also known as the Mahdi, several times in his speech at Friday's prayers. This has made me have these questions about the al-Mahdi and I wonder if any Muslims on here can answer them for me.

    Is there an explanation for why the Infallibles ended with the 12th Imam, al Mahdi, other that than Allah hid him in the Occultation and he is still alive? ...any explanation for why he was hidden and didnt just die like his predecessors and a 13th Imam take his place? Didnt he have any sons?

    And why is his return linked to the return of Jesus?

    What kind of message or feeling was Khamenei trying to invoke in the Iranians by mentioning al-Mahdi?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 20, 2009 8:24 PM GMT
    I've been curious about this for awhile too. I have asked several Iraqis about him and I have heard a few different things. Basically the Al Mahdi is significant and brought up in speaches to remind people that 'the end is near' and all that. Al Mahdi is supposed to return and end the chaos and distruction that is brought on by 'non-beleivers'. He is said to return when their is no order, a failing government is overrun by terrorism and suffering is of the overwhelming populace. He is supposed to return and walk with Christ and help defeat the anti-christ. Basically its the same as Christians waiting Christ return to fix everything and end suffering, and to remind people that the time will come soon, so live life without sin or be damned. Thats what I have got from the locals here anyway. No disrepect but the muslims got a lot of things that are very similar to christian belief...Ascention into heaven, return during the days of the anti-christ, immaculate conception. I guess the Christians got a lot of the same stuff from the pagans back in the day too.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 20, 2009 8:42 PM GMT
    What I know is that the Mahdi is the equivalent of the Messiah in Islam. And yes, that means that their Messiah, unlike that of the Christians, have not yet actually arrived. The signs of the coming of the Mahdi is very similar and is interconnected with that of the Christian second coming (the Mahdi signs mention Jesus joining forces with Mahdi). And interestingly both warn against false prophets. Technically, both Jesus and the Mahdi are prophets in Islam anyway. So yes, it's no big deal that Jesus is part of the Mahdi prophecy.

    The belief on the Mahdi of course is stronger among Shia Muslims since they are the ones who hold the notion that all the descendants of Mohammad had some divinely-given right to rule. And since the Mahdi is of Mohammad's line, naturally it's part of the belief. Not so with the Sunnis who hold that one's divine worth is not based on lineage.

    Nonetheless, several fanatics have claimed to be the Mahdi for centuries. And there are even a few Mahdi-claimants in the present day, they're all megalomaniacal crackpots who more or less form cults of personalities. In the same way that there are Christian fanatics who claim to be the second coming of Jesus.

    Obviously, like other religious prophecies, it's an invaluable tool when you want to gain the mass-support of a religious people. Since the reason itself is religious (and thus deemed purer than one that is simply political for instance, or humanistic), you won't get immediately accused of using it for selfish gain. That's what the Ayatollah wants. Unity in a bloody war, by threatening doomsday and promising paradise. And I'm afraid it's gonna get worse and worse for everyone and we'll probably do get our doomsday... and realize that there is no paradise.

    Pah. Religions. And you wonder why I hate them so much.

    To be honest, I'm not really that interested in the Mahdi mythos. He's just your regular threat/promise messianic figure of your regular religion. Almost every religion has them small or massive, from Shamanist cults to the Catholic Church. Designed to promote fear and obeisance while at the same time promising rewards that would drive a man to sacrifice his very life - the promise of the 70 al-huriyas is a minor version of this, and look what that little promise of eternal sexual gratification can do. To be fair, there is a secular version - the promise of 'Liberty', however that may be defined.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 20, 2009 8:48 PM GMT
    hmmmmmmm sounds to me then from what you've just said is that islam is somewhat of a copy of christianity.

    interesting that
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 20, 2009 9:20 PM GMT
    MadeNUSA saidhmmmmmmm sounds to me then from what you've just said is that islam is somewhat of a copy of christianity.

    ...
    Sounds like you haven't studied the Fertile Crescent's religions before.

    Your comment will most like incite so terrible post about Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Zoroastrianism, Egyptian and Pagan religions, the Giglamesh epics, and random Youtube clips of documentaries which comment on the significance of each religions holy days, feasts, Gods, names, etc...
  • Sirkit

    Posts: 182

    Jun 20, 2009 9:35 PM GMT
    *Morgan Freeman voice-over* It is dawn on the forum... the fertile plains of threads have been disrupted by an ill thought forum post. The ravenous frequent posters are gathering for the hunt... the original poster continues to feed, unaware that they have already been targeted by religious Zelots of both sides. Let's watch as the hunt begins. */Morgan Freeman voice-over*
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 20, 2009 9:37 PM GMT
    I have read also that the Mahdi is supposed to be walking amongst people right now and he can take the form of anyone. So muslims are told that they need to be nice to anyone cuz anyone could be the Mahdi...and boy, they dont want to piss him off by not being nice to him. ... icon_eek.gif

    But I still dont quite get why Khamenei mentioned him in his speech...what the significance to muslims is. (Fuck with the gov't and Mahdi will get you when he comes back, maybe?)
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 20, 2009 10:05 PM GMT
    MadeNUSA saidhmmmmmmm sounds to me then from what you've just said is that islam is somewhat of a copy of christianity.

    interesting that


    Doh. icon_rolleyes.gif

    The People of the Book. The Abrahamic faiths. The great monotheisms. The Judaeo-Christian-Islamic religions.

    You seriously hadn't made the connection before? THEY ALL WORSHIP THE SAME GOD and paradoxically have been at each others' throats for thousands of years now. And no, Islam is NOT a copy of Christianity, more like a parallel branch. They both, however are expounded upon the original Judaism and both feature the Old Testament.

    I'll decline Pinny's suggestion LOL. Too sleepy.

    P.S. Caslon, there are supposedly two other immortals who are also walking with us now, like the Mahdi - Cain and Al-Khidr (The Green Man). Al-Khidr is also kind of a basis for the precautionary tales concerning being kind to strangers.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 20, 2009 10:08 PM GMT
    Sedative said
    MadeNUSA saidhmmmmmmm sounds to me then from what you've just said is that islam is somewhat of a copy of christianity.

    interesting that


    Doh. icon_rolleyes.gif

    The People of the Book. The Abrahamic faiths. The great monotheisms. The Judaeo-Christian-Islamic religions.

    You seriously hadn't made the connection before? THEY ALL WORSHIP THE SAME GOD and paradoxically have been at each others' throats for thousands of years now.

    I'll decline Pinny's suggestion LOL. Too sleepy.

    P.S. Caslon, there are supposedly two other immortals who are also walking with us now, like the Mahdi - Cain and Al-Khidr (The Green Man).


    no they don't all worship the same god. bs. allah is derived from pantheon of gods and he was the moon god if memory serves correctly.

    this has no correlation to christianity or judaism
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 20, 2009 10:10 PM GMT
    Caslon11000 saidI have read also that the Mahdi is supposed to be walking amongst people right now and he can take the form of anyone. So muslims are told that they need to be nice to anyone cuz anyone could be the Mahdi...and boy, they dont want to piss him off by not being nice to him. ... icon_eek.gif

    But I still dont quite get why Khamenei mentioned him in his speech...what the significance to muslims is. (Fuck with the gov't and Mahdi will get you when he comes back, maybe?)


    Couldn't tell you Caslon, i didn't hear the speech (nor want to, is a side of my life i'd rather leave behind honestly...)

    I grew up with the religion of the "twelvers" as some people call it (i think it's a stupid name icon_razz.gif ) and yea, the way we believe is that each "people' (this could be a group or the whole world) from the dawn of time to now had a prophet (and later, an imam) to run amok. Ours now would technically be Mahdi (not 'the mahdi so much as just Mahdi, it's a name ) however he -IS- hidden. As to asking why? Well i'm sure someone else could give you an answer for that - i can't. Personally, i see it as being our version of "salvation", we have something like that in Judaism, Jesus in Christianity, and Mahdi in Islam. (see below)

    Linked to Jesus? It's believed that Jesus and Mahdi will return together and rid the world of all evil/sinners etc. This is probably what Khamenei was talking about, It's also believed that all those who die from now till then will have the chance at ressurection for the "great battle" So he was probably trying to remind the people "be good, and you'll get your chance to see a world without evil etc" (again i didn't hear the speech, so i couldn't tell you for sure)

    and as for "made in usa" ... dude really? Cmon now. All three religions - Judaisim, Christianity, and Islam are considered the "religions of the book" for a reason... they are all the same religion, only branching off each time. Christians branched from the Jews (same core beliefs there), then the Muslims branched from the Christians. All three religions came from the same place and each one argues why THEIRS is the proper religion. Following this time line, there'll probably be another huge shift at some point and a fourth may come about. What do you think the religious part of the crusades was all about? I thought that was common knowledge icon_rolleyes.gif

    If you have any other questions Cas, i'd be happy to share my (neutral) two cents. From what i know from having followed Khamenei when i was a 'practicing muslim' , i'm sure he was trying to invoke a sense of calm "shut up and wait, even if not in this lifetime, be good people and you will get your chance eventually to see a 'perfect' world" i could be wrong, but i've always admired the man, so i don't see him doing anything to incite any bad feelings in people
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 20, 2009 10:12 PM GMT
    MadeNUSA said
    Sedative said
    MadeNUSA saidhmmmmmmm sounds to me then from what you've just said is that islam is somewhat of a copy of christianity.

    interesting that


    Doh. icon_rolleyes.gif

    The People of the Book. The Abrahamic faiths. The great monotheisms. The Judaeo-Christian-Islamic religions.

    You seriously hadn't made the connection before? THEY ALL WORSHIP THE SAME GOD and paradoxically have been at each others' throats for thousands of years now.

    I'll decline Pinny's suggestion LOL. Too sleepy.

    P.S. Caslon, there are supposedly two other immortals who are also walking with us now, like the Mahdi - Cain and Al-Khidr (The Green Man).


    no they don't all worship the same god. bs. allah is derived from pantheon of gods and he was the moon god if memory serves correctly.

    this has no correlation to christianity or judaism


    LOL! Moon god?! i'm sorry but proof please? Proof that islam did NOT come from christianity and judaisim icon_razz.gif That's gotta be the funnest explanation i've heard yet icon_razz.gif I'd actually be willing to worship a moon god icon_razz.gif that sounds like fun!

    My proof - before you bother asking -

    VERY core belief in Islam - "There is no God but Allah" he is the ONLY one, he created ADAM and EVE and the story about satan and the snake and everything is (almost) exactly the same as christianity

    We believe in Adam, Noah, Jesus, and just about every other major holy figure in the bible. They are all prophets(or similiar) in Islam too. All of the stories from the Bible and the Torah (old testament type stuff) is almost exactly the same as islamic stories (of course with the twists that would normally come about)

    It's a JOKE to say that Allah came from a pantheon - the very idea of 'other Gods' in islam is a HUGE sin. There is naught but the one, He has been here from the begining and will be here forever - All teachings of islam.

    "no correlation to christianity or judaism" icon_eek.gificon_rolleyes.gificon_rolleyes.gificon_rolleyes.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 20, 2009 10:22 PM GMT
    MadeNUSA said
    Sedative said
    MadeNUSA saidhmmmmmmm sounds to me then from what you've just said is that islam is somewhat of a copy of christianity.

    interesting that


    Doh. icon_rolleyes.gif

    The People of the Book. The Abrahamic faiths. The great monotheisms. The Judaeo-Christian-Islamic religions.

    You seriously hadn't made the connection before? THEY ALL WORSHIP THE SAME GOD and paradoxically have been at each others' throats for thousands of years now.

    I'll decline Pinny's suggestion LOL. Too sleepy.

    P.S. Caslon, there are supposedly two other immortals who are also walking with us now, like the Mahdi - Cain and Al-Khidr (The Green Man).


    no they don't all worship the same god. bs. allah is derived from pantheon of gods and he was the moon god if memory serves correctly.

    this has no correlation to christianity or judaism


    Oh jesus. READ please. Allah (contraction of Al-ilah, literally "the God') has the same etymological roots as the Judaic and Christian name for God - which was originally also 'El', 'Ilah', and 'Eloah' (much better known today in the form of 'Elohim', masculine plural). A closer resemblance is in the Aramaic 'Alaha'.

    'El' is still present in some Biblically derived names like Micheal (Mi-ka-el, 'Who is like God'), Raphael (Rapa-el, arabic Rafa-il, 'God heals'), Elijah (Eliyah, arabic Ilyas - 'Yahweh is my God'), etc.

    Did you seriously think early Jews called their god 'God'? You must understand that Islam, like Judaism and Christianity has NO name for their god. They didn't need to, they're all monotheisms, they all worship exactly ONE god. The existence of any other god is blasphemy. Except perhaps for the tetragrammaton - YHWH. Otherwise they simply refered to him as 'The God'. Often borrowing names from other peoples - like how we use 'God', 'Gott', 'Dios', and 'Dieu' today and how they used simple titles earlier like 'Baal', 'Adunai', 'Shaddai', etc.

    And in case you don't know. Jews, Christians, and Muslims all share the Old Testament. Yes, they all believe in Adam and Eve, Abraham, Moses, and all that. Sure they're known under their arabic names (Christian: Jesus Islamic: Isa Jewish: Joshua Latin: Iesus; Christian: Moses Islamic: Musa Jewish: Moshe Latin: Moyses; Christian: Abraham Jewish: Avraham Islamic: Ibrahim etc.) but they're still all the same people doing the same things. Seriously, how is it that I, an atheist, know more about your religions than you do? Jesusmaryjoseph, that probably explains why you've been killing each other through all these years - ignorance.

    Does it hurt to realize your 'enemies' aren't really that different from you?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 21, 2009 12:34 AM GMT
    Sedative said
    MadeNUSA said
    Sedative said
    MadeNUSA saidhmmmmmmm sounds to me then from what you've just said is that islam is somewhat of a copy of christianity.

    interesting that


    Doh. icon_rolleyes.gif

    The People of the Book. The Abrahamic faiths. The great monotheisms. The Judaeo-Christian-Islamic religions.

    You seriously hadn't made the connection before? THEY ALL WORSHIP THE SAME GOD and paradoxically have been at each others' throats for thousands of years now.

    I'll decline Pinny's suggestion LOL. Too sleepy.

    P.S. Caslon, there are supposedly two other immortals who are also walking with us now, like the Mahdi - Cain and Al-Khidr (The Green Man).


    no they don't all worship the same god. bs. allah is derived from pantheon of gods and he was the moon god if memory serves correctly.

    this has no correlation to christianity or judaism


    Oh jesus. READ please. Allah (contraction of Al-ilah, literally "the God') has the same etymological roots as the Judaic and Christian name for God - which was originally also 'El', 'Ilah', and 'Eloah' (much better known today in the form of 'Elohim', masculine plural). A closer resemblance is in the Aramaic 'Alaha'.

    'El' is still present in some Biblically derived names like Micheal (Mi-ka-el, 'Who is like God'), Raphael (Rapa-el, arabic Rafa-il, 'God heals'), Elijah (Eliyah, arabic Ilyas - 'Yahweh is my God'), etc.

    Did you seriously think early Jews called their god 'God'? You must understand that Islam, like Judaism and Christianity has NO name for their god. They didn't need to, they're all monotheisms, they all worship exactly ONE god. The existence of any other god is blasphemy. Except perhaps for the tetragrammaton - YHWH. Otherwise they simply refered to him as 'The God'. Often borrowing names from other peoples - like how we use 'God', 'Gott', 'Dios', and 'Dieu' today and how they used simple titles earlier like 'Baal', 'Adunai', 'Shaddai', etc.

    And in case you don't know. Jews, Christians, and Muslims all share the Old Testament. Yes, they all believe in Adam and Eve, Abraham, Moses, and all that. Sure they're known under their arabic names (Christian: Jesus Islamic: Isa Jewish: Joshua Latin: Iesus; Christian: Moses Islamic: Musa Jewish: Moshe Latin: Moyses; Christian: Abraham Jewish: Avraham Islamic: Ibrahim etc.) but they're still all the same people doing the same things. Seriously, how is it that I, an atheist, know more about your religions than you do? Jesusmaryjoseph, that probably explains why you've been killing each other through all these years - ignorance.

    Does it hurt to realize your 'enemies' aren't really that different from you?


    That was such a load of crap!!!!!!!!!!! What da heck do you read?

    The word Allah was adapted from moon worship.

    Moon worship has been practiced in Arabia since circa 2000 BC. Simply check Islamic culture and you will find the crescent moon is the most common symbol of of worship as far back as 2000 BC. WHY DO YOU THINK THERE ARE SO MANY CRESCENT MOONS AS PART OF THE FLAGS OF ISLAMIC COUNTRIES AND MINARETS AND MOSQUES THROUGH OUT THE WORLD. TRYING TO TIE ALLAH TO EL OR ELOHIM IS AT BEST SPECIOUS?!?!?!?!?

    In Mecca, there was a god named Hubal who was Lord of the Kabah.
    This Hubal was a moon god.

    The moon god was also referred to as "AL-ILAH". Not a proper name of a single specific god, but a generic reference meaning "the god". Each local pagan Arab tribe would refer to their own local tribal pagan god as "al-ilah".

    "al-ilah" was later shortened to Allah before Muhammad began promoting his new religion in 610 AD.

    Muhammad retained almost all the pagan rituals of the Arabs at the Kaba and redefined them in monotheistic terms.

    Regardless, it is clear that ALLAH is derived from paganism that once worshiped a moon-god. AND YOU TRYING TO TIE ALLAH TO EL/ELOHIM/YAWEH - WON'T WORK! GOOD TRY THOUGH!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 21, 2009 1:13 AM GMT
    MadeNUSA is clearly getting his information from websites such as this one:

    http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

    This is a bunch of BS, and your claim to know so much about "Allah" and "Islam" and informing people who actually grew up with this faith in their families and all around them is frankly insulting. I don't claim to know much about anything, but I did have to endure sunday school and religious education classes during my youth, and it is a little ridiculous to be told that the basic premises of Islam are BS by somebody who has NO idea what they're talking about.

    I'm sure there are many connections between today's muslim festivals and practices to preceding "pagan" Arab traditions, in much the same way that much of today's Christian rituals and traditions have roots in preceding European "pagan" traditions. Big surprise.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 21, 2009 1:21 AM GMT
    pinguino saidMadeNUSA is clearly getting his information from websites such as this one:

    http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

    This is a bunch of BS, and your claim to know so much about "Allah" and "Islam" and informing people who actually grew up with this faith in their families and all around them is frankly insulting. I don't claim to know much about anything, but I did have to endure sunday school and religious education classes during my youth, and it is a little ridiculous to be told that the basic premises of Islam are BS by somebody who has NO idea what they're talking about.

    I'm sure there are many connections between today's muslim festivals and practices to preceding "pagan" Arab traditions, in much the same way that much of today's Christian rituals and traditions have roots in preceding European "pagan" traditions. Big surprise.


    actually I didn't. we all get our information from somewhere don't we? unless of course you are born knowing everything.

    i just went to google.com and typed in the word allah. you get any number of hits telling you the same thing. i just picked one. I stopped at the 6th one. Couldn't be bothered to continue reading.

    hey as chucky will tell you.., your false belief systems-are just that. false beliefs!!! you should be thankful that someone has pointed out to you different information. don't say you were never told.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 21, 2009 1:21 AM GMT
    MadeNUSA saidthis has no correlation to christianity or judaism

    Islam is joined to Judeo-Christianity through Abrahamic sons (hence the "Lost Tribe" they say often).

    Many Islam scholars are cited as saying "the same God" (Christian and Islamic) it is just that the origins of the "god" are different. Christians believe in one God who has always been, is, and will be whereas Islam holds that Allah was one god among many who was able to conquer and chase the rest off and thus becoming the supreme God.

    Other than that, both believe in an omni-present, potent, scient, loving God
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 21, 2009 1:32 AM GMT
    Pinny said
    MadeNUSA saidthis has no correlation to christianity or judaism

    Islam is joined to Judeo-Christianity through Abrahamic sons (hence the "Lost Tribe" they say often).

    Many Islam scholars are cited as saying "the same God" (Christian and Islamic) it is just that the origins of the "god" are different. Christians believe in one God who has always been, is, and will be whereas Islam holds that Allah was one god among many who was able to conquer and chase the rest off and thus becoming the supreme God.

    Other than that, both believe in an omni-present, potent, scient, loving God


    no- i don't buy this argument. it may be true that ethnically there is a connection thru abraham. but they are no lost tribe.

    in terms of religious beliefs i see very little to no similarity to chritianity

    1. it's monotheistic i will grant you
    2. hatred of things gay i will also grant.

    that's it.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 21, 2009 2:25 AM GMT
    MadeNUSA saidno- i don't buy this argument. it may be true that ethnically there is a connection thru abraham. but they are no lost tribe.

    in terms of religious beliefs i see very little to no similarity to chritianity

    1. it's monotheistic i will grant you
    2. hatred of things gay i will also grant.

    that's it.

    It appears you need to do some in depth reading then. I am sure Caslon can recommend some books on Islam, its foundation, beliefs, and cultural implications.

    But to boldly claim that the similarities end there suggests that you haven't done enough reading about the theological intricacies concerning not only these two religions but the former ones that have circulated in the Middle East. That isn't meant to be an insult, but rather just a statement. I have done the readings, your train of thought is suggesting you haven't, but I can be wrong.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 21, 2009 2:30 AM GMT
    no_god_but_god.jpg
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 21, 2009 2:33 AM GMT
    Pinny said
    MadeNUSA saidno- i don't buy this argument. it may be true that ethnically there is a connection thru abraham. but they are no lost tribe.

    in terms of religious beliefs i see very little to no similarity to chritianity

    1. it's monotheistic i will grant you
    2. hatred of things gay i will also grant.

    that's it.

    It appears you need to do some in depth reading then. I am sure Caslon can recommend some books on Islam, its foundation, beliefs, and cultural implications.

    But to boldly claim that the similarities end there suggests that you haven't done enough reading about the theological intricacies concerning not only these two religions but the former ones that have circulated in the Middle East. That isn't meant to be an insult, but rather just a statement. I have done the readings, your train of thought is suggesting you haven't, but I can be wrong.


    i've done all the reading i care to. am i supposed to read and read and read until i find some obscure manuscript that purports to show similarities between the two to hold to your view? nah i don't think so. the central tenets of both faiths make them as similar as night and day
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 21, 2009 2:47 AM GMT
    How similar are they supposed to be? Both Christianity and Islam spring from Judaism. Christianity carries it to Jesus and Islam carries it to Mohammed, each with its "clarifications" ... icon_lol.gif ... and each says their guy is the last ... icon_rolleyes.gif ... but that was before I was born ... icon_biggrin.gif ... no, srsly...that all happened before I was born ... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 21, 2009 5:10 AM GMT
    MADEnUSA, calm down, you'll hurt yourself icon_biggrin.gif


    The use of the word Allah by Christians pre-dates Islam which came about in the 5th century, there's evidence of Arabian Christians existing in the 3rd century CE. "Allah" was worshiped in present-day Yemen and Southern Arabia by Arab Christians, and the term is used now by Arabized Christian populations (in Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Palestine, Egypt, etc).

    The crescent moon was only adopted by Islamic Caliphs as a secular symbol of power after Arab Muslims conquered the Sassanian Empire (Persia) where it was used as such (seen in the crowns of Persian nobility), 50 years after Mohamed's death. It eventually evolved into a political symbol, used by various ruling dynasties over the centuries in emblems and various forms of signage, the last being the Ottomon Empire (and it can be seen in many of the flags of nations that are former Ottomon colonies). The use of it to represent the religion of Islam is only a resent phenomenon of the last hundred years. Mohamed never used the symbol, and the use of holy symbols and worship of them in Islam is fundamentally prohibited.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 21, 2009 7:08 AM GMT
    MadeNUSA said

    i've done all the reading i care to. am i supposed to read and read and read until i find some obscure manuscript that purports to show similarities between the two to hold to your view? nah i don't think so. the central tenets of both faiths make them as similar as night and day


    I never thought there'd still be people like you today. Willful ignorance - the source for oh so many wars and bloodshed. And people like you, sir, are the reason why Americans are notorious for being the most ignorant about world culture. Because you prefer to believe what you want to believe.

    If you don't like reading, then talk to a Muslim and you'll realize he knows the same people as you. The same prophets, the same biblical happenings, and basically believe in the same things as Christians and Jews. Ask them about biblical people. About Saul, or Elijah, or Abel, or whoever takes your fancy.

    As TryAndBuy said, Islam doesn't have religious symbols per se. Because they, like Christians also received the 10 Commandments. And it clearly mentions a ban on idolatry. Unlike Christians however (who basically ignored it and made crucifixes and statues of Saints and plastic figurines of Jesus and Mary, etc.), Muslims took it far more seriously than even the Jews. They even forbid the depiction of human images. Ever wonder why there are no pictures of saints at all in Mosques or Islamic cities? Because it is considered idolatry. Even in paintings where people are depicted, the face is scratched out to avoid idolatry. This also resulted in the distinctive islamic design known to us today as Arabesque - the flowery, flowing designs that adorn Islamic architecture. That is the only way they can decorate without being blasphemous.

    This is the Koranic version of the stone tablet Moses recieved:

    Koran1. "There is no other god beside God." (Koran 47:19)
    2. "My Lord, make this a peaceful land, and protect me and my children from worshiping idols." (Koran 14:35)
    3. "And make not Allah's (name) an excuse in your oaths against doing good, or acting rightly, or making peace between persons; for Allah is One Who heareth and knoweth all things." (Koran 2:224)
    4. "O you who believe, when the Congregational Prayer (Salat Al-Jumu`ah) is announced on Friday, you shall hasten to the commemoration of GOD, and drop all business." (Koran 62:9)
    5. "....and your parents shall be honoured. As long as one or both of them live, you shall never (even) say to them, "Uff" (the slightest gesture of annoyance), nor shall you shout at them; you shall treat them amicably." (Koran 17:23)
    6. "....anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people." (Koran 5:32)
    7. "You shall not commit adultery; it is a gross sin, and an evil behaviour." (Koran 17:32)
    8. "They shall not steal." (Al-Mumtahanah 60: 12) and "The thief, male or female, you shall mark their hands as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as an example from God. God is Almighty, Most Wise." (Koran 5:3icon_cool.gif
    9. "Do not withhold any testimony by concealing what you had witnessed. Anyone who withholds a testimony is sinful at heart." (Koran 2:283)
    10. "And do not covet what we bestowed upon any other people. Such are temporary ornaments of this life, whereby we put them to the test. What your Lord provides for you is far better, and everlasting." (Koran 20:131)


    Compare that with your very own all-American Christian 10 commandments and the Jewish Ten Statements, why don't you?

    Bible (Exodus 20:2-17)

    2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;

    3 Do not have any other gods before me.

    4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

    5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,

    6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

    7 You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

    8 Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.

    9 For six days you shall labour and do all your work.

    10 But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns.

    11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and consecrated it.

    12 Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

    13 You shall not murder.

    14 You shall not commit adultery.

    15 You shall not steal.

    16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

    17 You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.


    Torah 1. "I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me..."

    2. "Do not make an image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above..."

    3. "Do not swear falsely by the name of the LORD..."

    4. "Remember [zachor] the Sabbath day and keep it holy" (the version in Deuteronomy reads shamor, "observe")

    5. "Honor your father and your mother..."

    6. "Do not murder"

    7. "Do not commit adultery."

    8. "Do not steal."

    9. "Do not bear false witness against your neighbor"

    10. "Do not covet your neighbor's wife"



  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 21, 2009 7:10 AM GMT

    And what makes you think, we're basing this on 'Obscure manuscripts'? ROFL. READ THE KORAN. That's your first source of knowledge about the Islamic faith. It's certainly not obscure and you can get a copy quite easily.

    As for your 'moon god' nonsense, let's see... Did you know that the Jewish and Christian god was also called 'Baal' (literally 'Lord') colloquially for a time? And did you know who that title was originally conferred to? The fertility god of the canaanites (among other things) - symbolized as the golden calf. By the same line of reasoning you might as well also say that the Christian and Jewish God was a 'Cow God'.

    Or how about the way Christians adopted the fish symbol or the crucifix? Should we also say that Jesus was a 'fish god'? Or an 'instrument of torture god'? Bah.

    (Oh and btw, the worship of the golden calf and Moses finding them is also present in the Koran, in the Bible, and in the Tanakh).

    How arrogantly you claim to know everything about Islam because you read a site that is undeniably fundamentalist Christian, i.e. crazy. How obstinately you refuse to even broaden your knowledge on the subject because you "already know all you need to know". You're not even Christian are you? And you believe a site with the words 'Bible' on it? icon_lol.gif

    News flash: You are talking to people who actually have contact with Muslims everyday. You are talking to actual Muslims here. Who else knows more about their religion than that? And what are you in comparison? An American living in his secluded little Christian town where they regard everyone who doesn't fit their american model as savages, reading crackpot websites and calling it truth because google says so.icon_rolleyes.gif

    You, sir, are insulting people with your ignorance. And this is probably the first time I am as thoroughly disgusted with someone.

    I doubt even this post will convince you. I think I've known people like you before. So good day, and have fun in la-la land.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 21, 2009 7:15 AM GMT
    Sedative said
    And what makes you think, we're basing this on 'Obscure manuscripts'? ROFL. READ THE KORAN. That's your first source of knowledge about the Islamic faith. It's certainly not obscure and you can get a copy quite easily.

    As for your 'moon god' nonsense, let's see... Did you know that the Jewish and Christian god was also called 'Baal' (literally 'Lord') colloquially for a time? And did you know who that title was originally conferred to? The fertility god of the canaanites (among other things) - symbolized as the golden calf. By the same line of reasoning you might as well also say that the Christian and Jewish God was a 'Cow God'.

    Or how about the way Christians adopted the fish symbol or the crucifix? Should we also say that Jesus was a 'fish god'? Or an 'instrument of torture god'? Bah.

    (Oh and btw, the worship of the golden calf and Moses finding them is also present in the Koran, in the Bible, and in the Tanakh).

    How arrogantly you claim to know everything about Islam because you read a site that is undeniably fundamentalist Christian, i.e. crazy. How obstinately you refuse to even broaden your knowledge on the subject because you "already know all you need to know". You're not even Christian are you? And you believe a site with the words 'Bible' on it? icon_lol.gif

    News flash: You are talking to people who actually have contact with Muslims everyday. You are talking to actual Muslims here. Who else knows more about their religion than that? And what are you in comparison? An American living in his secluded little Christian town where they regard everyone who doesn't fit their american model as savages, reading crackpot websites and calling it truth because google says so.icon_rolleyes.gif

    You, sir, are insulting people with your ignorance. And this is probably the first time I am as thoroughly disgusted with someone.

    I doubt even this post will convince you. I think I've known people like you before. So good day, and have fun in la-la land.


    Or Sed, you could just block this mindless fuck like I did.icon_wink.gif

    Trust, I've said this before. The feeling of relief and momentary lightness of being is much like the feeling one gets after a particularly painful and long overdue bowel movement.