The terrible logic behind universal health care

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 27, 2009 4:37 AM GMT
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 27, 2009 12:53 PM GMT
    funny.

    There is simply no argument against universal health care. Every time people try and argue the point they make themselves look foolish.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 27, 2009 1:00 PM GMT
    CBB677.gif

    Please note that the American 'private' system actually results in the the STATE spending more per person on health than in countries with universal health care.

    The government would never say it, but one of the reasons Britain has a nationalised health system, is because it is the cheapest way to deliver health care.... for the state.

    http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13899647
  • Mikeylikesit

    Posts: 1021

    Jun 27, 2009 1:50 PM GMT
    Lostboy saidfunny.

    There is simply no argument against universal health care. Every time people try and argue the point they make themselves look foolish.


    Uhm....I beg to differ.....Who do YOU expect to pay for all this heath care....Increase in taxes???......

    I dont think so!!!.....pay enough already......sending total wrong message....Welfare County...Govnt giving "free" handout outs is the total wrong message....icon_twisted.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 27, 2009 1:54 PM GMT
    Mikey - have a look at this graph and understand it.

    CBB677.gif

    http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13899647
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 27, 2009 1:56 PM GMT
    Health care for those who can afford it! icon_rolleyes.gif

    The US should stop paying for anybody's health care! icon_rolleyes.gif

    End Medicare Now! icon_rolleyes.gif
    End Medicare Now! icon_rolleyes.gif
    End Medicare Now! icon_rolleyes.gif

    (oh, wait)

    End Medicaid Now! icon_rolleyes.gif
    End Medicaid Now! icon_rolleyes.gif
    End Medicaid Now! icon_rolleyes.gif

    (No, not seriously. I just can't think of anything constructive to say.)
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 27, 2009 2:02 PM GMT
    I wonder what the countries at the top of the list have in common...

    Life_Expectancy_1.jpg
  • twostroke

    Posts: 184

    Jun 27, 2009 2:02 PM GMT
    I just canĀ“t understand the logic of being against public health care.

    In the environment I live in it is thought of as being better, special, glamorous even. But all that is due to clever marketing and nothing else.

    Reality is the private sector is after one thing and one thing only: PROFIT (and lots of it).

    The private sector works in a way that maximises money expenditure. If an insurance company pays lower rates... the professional will ask for as many investigations as possible (actually there are computer progamms that will tell you what to ask for for a certain complaint) so that the "professional" makes maximum gains.

    NO WONDER PRIVATE SECTOR DOCS LIVE SO LAVISHLY (and all industries related to health).

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 27, 2009 2:09 PM GMT
    Mikeylikesit said
    Lostboy saidfunny.

    There is simply no argument against universal health care. Every time people try and argue the point they make themselves look foolish.


    Uhm....I beg to differ.....Who do YOU expect to pay for all this heath care....Increase in taxes???......

    I dont think so!!!.....pay enough already......sending total wrong message....Welfare County...Govnt giving "free" handout outs is the total wrong message....icon_twisted.gif



    How about you get rid of the BILLIONS of dollars we spend wasted on bullshit Defense programs? How about you get rid of programs like those that want humans on Mars (we can barely get to the fuckin Moon!)? How about you stop SUBSIDISING companies like BOEING, that make BILLIONS of dollars and there's still BILLIONS of TAXPAYER dollars funding them???? Those are just a few off the top of my head. You're a greedy Republican, right??? Figures.
  • NursePractiti...

    Posts: 232

    Jun 27, 2009 2:13 PM GMT
    With the private health care system we currently have, if you don't have insurance, you don't get it. Even then, chances are what ever you want will be denied or you will have to pay out a large amount of money. Insurance companies are responsible ONLY to their investors, not you. And that is all they care about. If someone does not have insurance and has to go to the E.R. and has no money, who do you think pays for that? Hospitals all over this country are going broke because they have to eat so much of the cost of giving out free health care. Study after study shows the U.S. has the worst health care of industrial nations and we pay the most for health care. Private insurance may need to be available for those who want it, but we need a nationalized health care system. If not, we will all end up paying for it in the end with closed hospitals, (this is already happening), a work force that is always sick. For more info on this check out the W.H.O. stats as well as pubmed.com
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 27, 2009 2:15 PM GMT
    nursemuscle saidWith the private health care system we currently have, if you don't have insurance, you don't get it. Even then, chances are what ever you want will be denied or you will have to pay out a large amount of money. Insurance companies are responsible ONLY to their investors, not you. And that is all they care about. If someone does not have insurance and has to goto the E.R. and has no money, who do you think pays for that? Hospitals all over this country are going broke because they have to eat so much of the cost of giving out free health care. Study after study shows the U.S. has the worst health care of industrial nations and we pay the most for health care. Private insurance may need to be available for those who want it, but we need a nationalized health care system. If not, we will all end up paying for it in the end with closed hospitals, (this is already happening), a work force that is always. For more info on this check out the W.H.O. stats as well as pubmed.com



    COMMUNIST!!!!!!!! lol

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 27, 2009 2:17 PM GMT
    NursemuscleHEREStudy after study shows the U.S. has the worst health care of industrial nations and we pay the most for health care


    The irony is that the American government pays more than any other industrialised nation... ie. more than France and Sweden.

    You'd think that right wingers would want nationalised health care in order to save their tax dollars, wouldn't you?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 27, 2009 2:26 PM GMT

    It is a moot argument at this point. I honestly do not believe we are going to see universal health care.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 27, 2009 2:33 PM GMT
    twomack said
    It is a moot argument at this point. I honestly do not believe we are going to see universal health care.


    I honestly never thought that there would be a black president.

    This gives me an opportunity to whore my graph a little bit more, I honestly don't see how anyone can understand the stats and support 'private' health care.

    CBB677.gif

    The American state currently spends more than France on health care.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 27, 2009 2:34 PM GMT
    twomack said
    It is a moot argument at this point. I honestly do not believe we are going to see universal health care.


    Well, keep that attiude and we'll achieve NOTHING (you're the quintessential definition of an American as seen abroad with that attitude).
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 27, 2009 2:35 PM GMT
    As a Canadian living in the US, it is VERY apparent that the american healthcare system is completely broken! The american system set up really only benefits the rich minority who can afford to pay for these services, on top of the already outrageous cost of living.

    In Canada, we pay similar taxes, and yet have far superior healthcare, which is available to ALL citizens. So if you are ill, you do not need to go without medical attention.

    Perhaps there should be a transfer of money currently being spent in the US. My suggestion would be to spend less on military, and use it towards universal healthcare. In the long run, that would save the country money.

    Just my educated and experienced opinion icon_smile.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 27, 2009 2:38 PM GMT
    FRESH_INK_ADDICTION saidAs a Canadian living in the US, it is VERY apparent that the american healthcare system is completely broken! The american system set up really only benefits the rich minority who can afford to pay for these services, on top of the already outrageous cost of living.

    In Canada, we pay similar taxes, and yet have far superior healthcare, which is available to ALL citizens. So if you are ill, you do not need to go without medical attention.

    Perhaps there should be a transfer of money currently being spent in the US. My suggestion would be to spend less on military, and use it towards universal healthcare. In the long run, that would save the country money.

    Just my educated and experienced opinion icon_smile.gif


    Completely agree!!! Kudos to Canada. Unfortunately, the US in the recent past has become more of a "follower" than a "leader". Hopefully they snap out of it soon!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 27, 2009 2:39 PM GMT
    Lost_And_Found said
    NursemuscleHEREStudy after study shows the U.S. has the worst health care of industrial nations and we pay the most for health care


    The irony is that the American government pays more than any other industrialised nation... ie. more than France and Sweden.

    You'd think that right wingers would want nationalised health care in order to save their tax dollars, wouldn't you?


    Well, healthcare industries buy out congressmen who oppose them so it is hard to get someone in congress to side with you on approving universal healthcare. (All must bow to Kaiser. lol)

    I am sure though that there will come a time when the ideas and beliefs of our (the United State's) healthcare system and all it's flaws will present themselves and there will be a push for universal healthcare. It isn't as if we don't know these flaws now but an astonishing number of the public remains ignorant on the subject.

    http://www.healthreform.gov/reports/hiddencosts/index.html

    Obama's proposal for a government-run healthcare is a good start. We shall see were this takes us.
    I am all for universal healthcare! Bring it!
  • Mikeylikesit

    Posts: 1021

    Jun 27, 2009 2:47 PM GMT
    [quote][cite]Lostbo
  • Mikeylikesit

    Posts: 1021

    Jun 27, 2009 2:49 PM GMT
    [quote][cite]Lostbo
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 27, 2009 2:50 PM GMT
    Danteredux

    I agree with you.

    In Britain we've got nationalised health care, but the reason for that is because it's cheaper for the state to deliver health care that way, rather than through paying for insurance etc etc I.e. the National Health Service is cost effective rather than high quality.

    The British health care system is really lacking compared to 'high investment' countries like France and Sweden. You can see the results on the life expectancy chart (above).

    I just wanted to make the point (one could say harp on about the point) that the American government could save money through a system of universal health care, so long as it was properly managed.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 27, 2009 2:57 PM GMT
    here is the argument

    "Fuck everyone else, let them die, I don't want my tax dollars to help anyone, but I'll happily pay to blow the shit out of another country"

    Thankfully I don't live there..
  • allatonce

    Posts: 904

    Jun 27, 2009 2:59 PM GMT
    After taking a health care economics course in my undergraduate degree, I became to fully understand how stupid the American system is. The US government spends more money on health care than most countries providing universal health care, and then citizens are paying huge private bills on top of it. Americans spend over 14% of their GDP on health care and do not show higher levels of health (mortality rates, etc) than other countries spending a lot less and providing health care to all citizens.

    Also I really don't understand the arguments against universal health care. Yes, sometimes individuals make poor choices (smoking, binge drinking, being unsafe) that result in health problems, but also very often there are accidents, genetic problems, just bad "luck of the draw" issues that I don't think it is fair to force citizens to pay for privately. It is a weird survival of the fittest barbaric logic. After hurricane Katrina there weren't a lot of people saying "oh well that's their problem, I'm not paying taxes to fix their mess" so I don't understand why people think that way when there is a health misfortune.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 27, 2009 3:21 PM GMT
    what we have now is not healthcare but profit care. The insurance companies are set up to make a profit. To do so they either 1.) raise premiums and/or 2.) Deny people payment who have "insurance". People scream I don't want a government worker deciding my health care, but right now we have company workers who are not doctors deciding my treatment. My view is the doctor should determine the treatment. We need single payer health insurance.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 27, 2009 3:33 PM GMT
    This is a very complex conversation to have, with many moving parts:

    Universal Health Care is not the same as Single Payer (Government Run) Healthcare. Universal means that everyone is covered and contributes, as they're able.

    Next, Americans assume that the quality of the care, and efficacy of the care we receive is world-class, and that's completely untrue. For example:

    Public awareness and an interest in medical malpractice have been heightened by a recent report by the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences indicating that an estimated 44,000 to 98,000 deaths caused by medical errors occur annually in hospitals in the United States. In fact, drug interaction errors and severe adverse effects of medication are the most common causes of iatrogenic illness. Drug-related morbidity and mortality have recently been estimated to cost more than $130 billion annually in the United States.
    Reference: http://www.emedmag.com/html/pre/fea/features/031501.asp

    Additionally, not every test run on patients (especially the most ill) truly improve the health outcomes of the patients. Chronic diseases are hugely expensive because we don't effectively monitor or proactively treat. We're always in a state of reaction, after disease has set in and caused damage.

    Think about your own experiences: When you go to a doctor, do you know their success rate? Do you know the costs upfront? How do you select a doctor if you're new in town? -> Usually whichever one is approved by your insurance company (but again with no success/quality measures!)

    Is there a system/site you can reference that shows "XX procedure is y% successful in treating ZZ condition." And yet, when we log on to United.com, we can see how much a plane flight costs, where we're sitting, the percentage that the flight runs on time, and a detailed explanation of the costs. And, think about how many doctors/providers still use PAPER records (>80%!) and refuse to go digital. WTF?

    My point is that we all need to take responsibility for our healthcare, and to stop assuming that big healthcare provider institutions (hospitals, IDNs) have our health as their top concern. As Twostroke noted, insurance companies and for-profit healthcare providers (and even a lot of "non profit" providers) are the first things that need to be rooted out of the broken system. I'm not saying doctors/nurses/providers shouldn't be paid nicely, but I am saying that companies shouldn't profit grossly off of the sick.

    Taxes (and the availability of care, which many people suggest, as WYRLN jokingly pointed out) are the least of our worries. Quality, and demanding access to information about our care, is what we should be focusing on.