Gay Pride: more damage than good?

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    Jul 03, 2009 12:02 PM GMT
    Here is an article from one of the national newspapers in Ireland. Its by a well known journalist. Just curious to see what you all think about what he is saying.

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/ian-odoherty/if-you-prance-about-like-a-prat-that-is-how-youre-going-to-be-treated-1803786.html



    If you prance about like a prat, that is how you're going to be treated


    By Ian O'Doherty


    Friday July 03 2009

    So, here's the deal. You meet someone and you immediately get butterflies in your stomach. Your mouth goes dry when you talk to them and, when you're apart, your first instinct when you see or hear something interesting is to immediately contact your new partner and tell them what you just learned.

    Then, as time goes on, you both move in together and, one magical night over a romantic meal, your proposal is accepted.

    Now you can look forward to spending the rest of your life with your beloved, safe and secure and happy in the knowledge that, as the security of any State is largely based on people having strong ties in the community and an emotional, financial and spiritual investment in their environment, society will welcome you with open arms.

    But, of course, you're wrong. Because you're gay.

    This is the crux of the current debate about civil partnerships currently being played out around the country.

    And it's one which sees logic railing against illogic; tolerance against intolerance and common sense versus base, rank stupidity.

    Frankly, it is a matter of supreme indifference to me if someone is gay, just as it is one of supreme indifference if someone fancies women with big arses or prefers boobs.

    After all, you is what you is, as they say, and as long as your proclivities don't extend to children or animals and involves consenting adults, then go at it with gusto (that's the reason why the mass hysteria about Michael Jackson is baffling to me; my first reaction on hearing of his death was to shrug my shoulders and think 'one less paedophile stalking the earth').

    But as last Saturday's Dublin Gay Pride march -- marking the 40th anniversary of the momentous Stonewall riots in New York -- proved, large sections of the gay community really do their cause no favours.

    Track back a second -- it was interesting to see some of the more prickly members -- as it were -- of the gay community who were so outraged at Bruno.

    According to one American gay rights organisation, Bruno: "is pandering to clichés", while here in Ireland, one particularly commentator whined that: "With his naked bottom and angel wings and blond hair ... Bruno is portraying the worst stereotypes of the gay community -- narcissistic, promiscuous and self-indulgent."

    And she was right, of course, because that's what satire does -- it takes something that is already there and amps it to 11, and if people are too bovine and stupid to see that then that is their problem, not ours.

    If you were to take the stereotypical homophobe and ask him what he thinks of gay people, he would probably accurately describe exactly the kind of idiot you often see at these marches -- assless chaps, handlebar moustaches and a series of people competing with each other to see who can dress in the most outrageous fashion.

    And it is completely counterproductive.

    The gay community often liken their cause to the Civil Rights cause in America in the 1960s and there are undoubted similarities.

    Both were vilified by large sections of the majority population, they were demonised and caricatured.

    Myths developed and grew roots and even among some of the more supposedly enlightened sections of the community at large, you would hear the interchangeable refrain of "I'm not racist but ... " or "I'm not homophobic but ... "

    And, if gay people are going to continue to use the language of the Civil Rights, as indeed they should, then they should ask themselves this question -- when the black community marched in places like Selma in the 1960s, demanding equality and a stop to the crass demonisation and stereotyping of their community, did any of them dress as jungle savages with bones through their nose and spears in their hand?

    Of course they didn't, and anyone who tried to do so wouldn't have lasted long among his peers.

    Yet that is exactly what these fools do; they give their critics the opportunity to look at each other with smug confirmation and say: "You see? And these people want to be allowed to adopt children? I don't bloody think so."

    If you prance around like a prat, that is how you are going to be treated.

    Like everyone else, the gay community needs to realise that if it wants to be accepted by everyone else, they shouldn't be giving their opponents so much bloody ammunition. And they need to stop being so bloody touchy about everything.

    Both myself and Kevin Myers have written about the disgraceful disciplinary procedures brought against a bunch of firemen in Nottingham who shon
  • jlly_rnchr

    Posts: 1759

    Jul 03, 2009 12:17 PM GMT
    I agree to an extent, but Pride marches are kind of supposed to be outrageous. It's a moment where we can celebrate our quirky nuances. Fashion, loud dance music, inappropriate attire.

    But, for every float full of trannies, there's a group of children and parents walking with signs that read, "I Love My Two Daddies" or "I Love My Mommies". That a lot nicer to see, that's the take-home message from the parade I attended.

    Also, it's not an Equal Rights March, or at least the one in Philly wasn't. Pride is a lot different, a little less political, a little more fun. Now, if we don't behave appropriately at this planned Equal Rights march in DC this fall, then we'll have to rethink our decisions a little bit.
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    Jul 03, 2009 2:05 PM GMT
    I guess straights shouldn't have Mardi Gras then.
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    Jul 03, 2009 2:27 PM GMT
    I TOTALLY agree with the journalist! I don't even attend Gay Pride parades or events any more because of how out of place I feel, and I'm gay! I feel more like an outcast...and I should feel the opposite.

    Pride is supposed to be an event reflecting our pride about being gay and not afraid to live our lifestyle. The worldwide events do not promote being your individual self; they promote stereotypes, promiscuity, and drugs.

    Many gay guys I've known flock to Pride events, not to show the world how happy and proud they are to be gay, but to get in on the big parties, show off their bodies, hook up a few times, get smashed, and call it a weekend.

    I am truly ashamed of most Gay Pride events. It's not surprising at all that it's taking so long for us to claim our equal rights in this country when we keep perpetuating the stereotypes for which we are judged. Pride does almost nothing to win over the hearts and minds of conservatives and probably worsens their feelings about us.

    It's way too much to hope for that Pride would get back to its roots and focus on what is really important: being proud of who we are, individually. Really, that's something anyone, gay, straight, bisexual, etc., should focus on.

    I will definitely make myself scarce as Pride descends upon San Diego in a couple weeks. But for those of you who enjoy the meaningless debauchery, have a blast!
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    Jul 03, 2009 2:30 PM GMT
    Pride is what you make of it.

    Debauchery exists everywhere and in all contexts.

    Equal rights under the law are not dependent upon conformity.
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    Jul 03, 2009 2:54 PM GMT
    Behaving properly is the behavior of reason.

    It doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you like dick, either.

    It has everything to do with what folks are willing to be around, and be tolerant of.

    Most folks I know could give a rat's tiny behind who I sleep with, but, they don't need a rainbow rubbed in their face. That disgusts them. That makes them uncomfortable. They push back.

    Do you have to be weird to prefer gender x or y? Of course, not. Putting forth "weird" as part of that only serves as a huge hindrance to acceptance.

    I've had more than a couple of folks say to me "Chuck, you're the coolest gay guy I know." Why? I think it's because I'm open about it, completely o.k. with it, and I don't rub it in their faces. I don't threaten them, nor make them uncomfortable. In fact, I've had many "bi" athletes talk to me because I'm cool.

    Swishing around doesn't buy much with most folks. Doing a good job and being a great guy does.

    Are some folks hateful, even in 2009? Yeah. There's still gonna' be the Religous Right / false believers / extremists. One would have to argue that swishing around in high heels could be considered extreme by many, too. You beat hate by becoming likable, and main stream, and walking with your head held high and behaving properly; not by being outlandish.
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    Jul 03, 2009 3:14 PM GMT
    Once again Chucky offers well thought-out, sensible post.
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    Jul 03, 2009 3:15 PM GMT
    > If you were to take the stereotypical homophobe and ask him what he thinks of gay people, he would probably accurately describe exactly the kind of idiot you often see at these marches -- assless chaps, handlebar moustaches and a series of people competing with each other to see who can dress in the most outrageous fashion. And it is completely counterproductive.

    FAIL. Do (presumed straight) partiers at Mardi Gras live up to straight stereotypes?
    This is a circular argument: I presume A and generalize about it and thus any instance of A proves that A is universally true?

    So if I see an African American eating water-melon.....

    Should African Americans avoid eating water-melon lest the racist have a field day with that?


    > when the black community marched in places like Selma in the 1960s, demanding equality and a stop to the crass demonisation and stereotyping of their community, did any of them dress as jungle savages with bones through their nose and spears in their hand?

    If you look at the gay civil rights marches from the 1960s, you'll see men in 3 piece suits and women in dresses and high heels.

    Are we really to so superficially believe that what we wear is what will (or won't) get us equal rights?!

    Here's an idea: why don't all gay men marry women, have a house, 2.4 kids and a white picket fence... and presto magic we'll have equal rights, right?


    To analogize back to the black community, American society at large was (as far back as I can remember) accepting (or at least more tolerant) of black people who acted white (e.g. Colin Powell) as opposed to those who grew up in the "ghetto". Yet that's not equality.
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    Jul 03, 2009 3:15 PM GMT
    chuckystud said
    Do you have to be weird to prefer gender x or y? Of course, not. Putting forth "weird" as part of that only serves as a huge hindrance to acceptance.

    I've had more than a couple of folks say to me "Chuck, you're the coolest gay guy I know." Why? I think it's because I'm open about it, completely o.k. with it, and I don't rub it in their faces. I don't threaten them, nor make them uncomfortable. In fact, I've had many "bi" athletes talk to me because I'm cool.

    Swishing around doesn't buy much with most folks. Doing a good job and being a great guy does.

    Are some folks hateful, even in 2009? Yeah. There's still gonna' be the Religous Right / false believers / extremists. One would have to argue that swishing around in high heels could be considered extreme by many, too. You beat hate by becoming likable, and main stream, and walking with your head held high and behaving properly; not by being outlandish.


    Very well said. Pride, to me, is all about rubbing the most extreme parts of gay culture in the faces of everyone else. It is completely outlandish, over-the-top behavior.

    To me, being gay does not define my existence. I do not have a gay chip or gene that tells me what music I have to like, how I should dress, what bars or clubs I need to be seen at, what tv shows to watch, etc. I like what I like, and I do what I want to do because of WHO I am, not WHAT I am.

    I don't go out of my way to tell people I'm gay. If it comes up, we'll discuss, but really, straight people don't go around saying "I like to fuck the opposite sex". Why should we have to expose our sex preference all the time? Who we like to have sex with shouldn't be that crucial of a conversation except with intimate friends and significant others. The only way many find out I like guys is when I mention who I'm dating at a given time, usually.

    I can't wait till the day when we won't even have to fall into such classifications as "straight", "gay", "bi". We can like who we like and go from there. We'll all just be people. Classifications really are quite harmful and constricting in our society.
  • NickoftheNort...

    Posts: 1416

    Jul 03, 2009 3:32 PM GMT
    I wasn't aware equal public rights came with an unequal dress code...and that we're supposed to accept this as a standard.
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    Jul 03, 2009 4:00 PM GMT
    Caesarea4 said>
    To analogize back to the black community, American society at large was (as far back as I can remember) accepting (or at least more tolerant) of black people who acted white (e.g. Colin Powell) as opposed to those who grew up in the "ghetto". Yet that's not equality.


    I have a Black CPA, several black friends and think President and Mrs. Obama set a wonderful example in taking Grandma to The White House. I think they set an example to Black America to "blend in" more, and to be persistent value education, and not be so antagonistic.

    The saying goes, you get more flies with honey than with vinegar. General Powell, and President Obama, are both indicative of that. Gays, and Blacks, that are antagonistic could learn much from that. President Obama, being multi-racial has had to contend with the issue on numerous occasions, I'm sure. Black folks sometimes forget that The President is 1/2 white.

    Prejudice sucks. Have I been fired from a job for no reason other than saying I wasn't religious? You bet. Have I been fired from a job for no reason other than someone thinking I liked guys? You bet. Have I been fired from a job for speaking truths rather than not rocking the boat? You bet. Even when I have not been antagonistic, and I know how to be that way as well as the next guy, have I had stuff done? Yes. You don't get ahead, though, by being antagonistic. You get ahead by building bridges / relationships. Is the world fair? Hell no. Ever been 48, and over-qualified? Sucks. I'm not dumb downed enough to work for some folks. Ever tried to get an employer to let a 20 year old brilliant diabetic kid work from home (which makes perfect sense)?

    My point is that we all develop views and stereotypes based upon our experiences. I've only had a gun pulled on me by a Black man, ever. (I noted that his girlfriend got 83 returns done a day, and everyone else did 240, and that she made the remark being Black and female "I don't have to worry about my job.") I've only been woke at 0430 by Hip Hop (repeatedly) by the Black dope dealer in the next building over. I've only been told "I will help you when I'm through!!!) by an angry Black woman on the phone at 7-11 when I was the only person in the store. I've only been scolded by Black women CSRs and never by anyone from another race. Now, I'm smart, and I know some wonderful gay folks and some wonderful Black folks. My point is, however, that if I have Black people who believe badly, and I have gay folks who behave badly, no matter what the truth, at a certain point, the stereoptype sets in, and I think all Black women are bitchy and rude, and that all Black guys disregard education and carry firearms, and that all queers are trannies.

    It's a tough line. Not an easy answer. Generally speaking, though, decent folks are decent unless you antagonize them.
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    Jul 03, 2009 4:03 PM GMT
    It sounds like another "we are treated badly because we deserve it rant" .. ie battered wife syndrome, Stockholm syndrome .. etc.

    Gay persecution has been going on centuries before there were gay parades. And guess what? Now that there are gay parades gays have more rights than ever here in the U.S. So I see no correlation for the worse. People that hate gays do so because they are homophobic and their religion tells them to.

    Internalized homophobia and external homophobia is why people hate anything that is related to "gay" .. you would be hated just as much for holding your boyfriends hand or giving your boyfriend a peck on the lips despite the fact that heterosexuals do that in public all the time.

    Heterosexuals are just as outlandish if not more so .. I guess that is why heterosexuals are so persecuted icon_rolleyes.gif

    spring break


    carnival


    Mardi gras (here in san diego)


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    Jul 03, 2009 4:13 PM GMT
    I think its high time for these embarrassing things to die, but that won't be happening as long as gay baby boomers are around.

    Unfortunately, the Toronto Pride Parade have become an enormous cash cow, so its going to be giving people the opportunity to make jackasses of themselves for a long time to come.

    And the big difference between Pride and Mardi Gras is that people aren't irresponsible enough to bring their children to Mardi Gras to watch women "earn their beads". I think anyone that brings their kid to the sexed up freak show that pride parades are should be investigated by child and family services. No 6 year-old kid should see a naked man with a dog tail butt plug sticking out of his a** being lead on all fours on a leash. I saw a picture of a kid pointing at that very site at this year's parade.
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    Jul 03, 2009 4:23 PM GMT
    Every year here I walk along the pride parade route here in San Diego to go to my friend's house where he has a big party with hundreds of friends old and new. I have never seen anything NEAR as crazy as Mardi Gras at that parade.
    I have never seen the pflag moms hanging their titties out or wearing thongs.

    If people get so offensive in public then that is a problem with local law enforcement and laws.
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    Jul 03, 2009 4:35 PM GMT
    It seems Gay Pride events have morphed from being about creating awareness, even of what some might call extremes of the outlandish, to nothing more than a circuit party on wheels, business opportunity, or maybe a community festival.

    If the point is to build bridges and pride, then many of the events I'm aware of tend to be more gay exclusive. Awareness, where these events appear to be the biggest, seems to be not so much of an issue as it was before.

    I do believe there are roles for apologists, like Chuckystud, and roles for those that push all kinds of boundaries, like the Brüno characture, and everything in between above and below, beyond, etc...

    It would be wonderful if these events really were about inclusion and a conscious effort were made to celebrate a real spectrum/nebula of identities and people so as to confront all kinds of bias that would be great. But the ones I have seen are more about the party and the business side of it all. There is a place for that too, maybe, but not for me in it.

    So while pride doesn't make me feel proud, in fact the opposite. I'm not upset it isn't living up to it's name. People who enjoy it can have at it. I'm going to the beach.
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    Jul 03, 2009 4:40 PM GMT
    I agree no child should have to see pornographic like paraders and for the parents dang you don't let your children see you in fore play nor having sex why would you want to expose your kid to pornographic like paraders all in the name of pride. Again theres a time an place for that. I have a few people tell me "oh why would you want to fo to this pride or that pride parade..once you've seen the " circuit cindies" and the outlandish frocked follies review the parades al gloss to be the same. How about a platoon of guys who've just come home from Afghanistan, how about a regiment of gay nurses or aids hospice workers. What Im saying is there is room for the everyday mainstream guy/gal who is gay to come out and be a part. Im not Jewish but I befriended this elderly shut in here in Honolulu. When he found out that I was gay he protested loudly to my superior..fortunately most of the staff was gay and so he would be trading me in for another gay nurse/caregiver.
    It took about 7 months for him to warm up to me. I just did my job and lived y life infront of him. Now Im the most everyday guy who comes to work , does a damn good job nursing, takes interests in his everyday life. One day he made mention how he realized that I was just like every one else. I was a good person and that if there were other "falegella's " like me, he would consider sitting down and wathcing a gay pride parade with me.
    How do you eat and elephant....piece by piece...how do you demystify a gay
    stereotype...by living your everyday life daily , courageously and w/o guile.
  • NickoftheNort...

    Posts: 1416

    Jul 03, 2009 4:41 PM GMT
    UofTLatinBoy saidI think anyone that brings their kid to the sexed up freak show that pride parades are should be investigated by child and family services. No 6 year-old kid should see a naked man with a dog tail butt plug sticking out of his a** being lead on all fours on a leash. I saw a picture of a kid pointing at that very site at this year's parade.

    Is this a strawman or an actual example you've witnessed? If it's the latter and it's against public decency laws of that locality, why didn't the police intervene?

    That Pride Parades I've attended (Oslo, '07, '08, and '09) have, at their most provocative, had bears in diapers and a man having his bare bottom spanked aboard the S&M float, but no full frontal nudity.
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    Jul 03, 2009 4:44 PM GMT



    What's interesting for us is that at the same time guys are decrying the Pride parades, they're forgetting what a completely public site this is, and that anyone can see posts and pics here that could theoretically do just as much damage to your perceived respectability issues as any parade.

    Good grief, my sister found this site with minimal effort and she didn't know what it was called!


    There's just as much, even more, straight debauchery on TV!

    As for the boomers authoring this parade problem, last we looked, most of the scantily clad etc were just twinkles in the eyes of their parents when most boomers were entering their teens...


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    Jul 03, 2009 4:44 PM GMT
    In this thread, the nonsensical notion that fringe behavior is why gays don't have rights is discussed in detail ..

    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/452033/
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    Jul 03, 2009 4:46 PM GMT
    NickoftheNorth said
    "Is this a strawman or an actual example you've witnessed? If it's the latter and it's against public decency laws of that locality, why didn't the police intervene?

    That Pride Parades I've attended (Oslo, '07, '08, and '09) have, at their most provocative, had bears in diapers and a man having his bare bottom spanked aboard the S&M float, but no full frontal nudity".


    Toronto Pride has lots of full frontal nudity. The police stopped enforcing public decency laws a few years ago, so anything goes.

    Update: Do an image search on Flickr for Toronto Pride Nude, and you'll get an ideal of what Toronto Pride is like. There's no way Mardi Gras gets that extreme. Toronto Pride is my only reference point, so perhaps other pride parades are more tame then ours.
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    Jul 03, 2009 4:47 PM GMT
    Who cares, it's one out of 365 days. Life is too short icon_biggrin.gif
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    Jul 03, 2009 4:54 PM GMT
    mardi gras has been repeatedly posed as a counter to outlandish Pride events.
    The difference, as far as the OP's point, is that mardi gras participants are not a single, easy-to-aggregate (or segregate) minority group.

    Someone disgusted with mardi gras is disgusted with the behavior.
    Someone disgusted by similar behavior at Pride is disgusted with gays....not just the behavior.

    It's not fair to extrapolate this disgust to ALL gays, but it's convenient for the general public....It's human nature to assign blame to a 'whipping boy'. If you're a minority group, you're an easy target.
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    Jul 03, 2009 4:55 PM GMT
    meninlove said What's interesting for us is that at the same time guys are decrying the Pride parades, they're forgetting what a completely public site this is, and that anyone can see posts and pics here that could theoretically do just as much damage to your perceived respectability issues as any parade.
    Thanks for bringing that up. There is no logic to internalized homophobia. Yet here they are all the gay guys who don't identify with gay, or are straight acting .. on a site devoted to "GAY FITNESS"

    Gays would do well to study the history of homosexuality and civilization if you want to understand why gays are hated and persecuted. The younger guys or newly out guys especially get some notion of why things are the way they are and can't tell you what Stonewall is or what the Mattachine Society was.
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    Jul 03, 2009 5:03 PM GMT
    Thanks ActiveAndFit, we'd like to direct everyone's attention in particular to the adult sex forums which are completely public.


    Now then class, how much damage do you think the subject matter is doing when the Christian Right directs the media, and other of their ilk here? Hmmmmm?

    We wonder how many Westboro followers enjoy justification in their small minds with all this RJ ammunition....

    ....and you're worried about parades. LOL!
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    Jul 03, 2009 5:03 PM GMT
    gryff88 saidHere is an article from one of the national newspapers in Ireland. Its by a well known journalist. Just curious to see what you all think about what he is saying.




    It dosen't really surprise me.....

    That newspaper is a conservative right wing rag, founded by the first leader of the irish republican party, with ill gotten funds.

    It's always attacking people and pushing a religious, nationalist and borderline racist agenda.


    I was at Dublin Pride, and lets just say in comparason to others around the world it is TAME! That and I'm betting he wasn't even there

    But it is always accompanied by a group of religious fundamentalists that turn out in the square for a group prayer that it rains on the gays

    I really don't think we need to take a stereotpical homophobe because in my mind the author is a sterotypical irish homophobe and has no right writing about a comunity he knows nothing of