Here is an article from one of the national newspapers in Ireland. Its by a well known journalist. Just curious to see what you all think about what he is saying.
If you prance about like a prat, that is how you're going to be treated
By Ian O'Doherty
Friday July 03 2009
So, here's the deal. You meet someone and you immediately get butterflies in your stomach. Your mouth goes dry when you talk to them and, when you're apart, your first instinct when you see or hear something interesting is to immediately contact your new partner and tell them what you just learned.
Then, as time goes on, you both move in together and, one magical night over a romantic meal, your proposal is accepted.
Now you can look forward to spending the rest of your life with your beloved, safe and secure and happy in the knowledge that, as the security of any State is largely based on people having strong ties in the community and an emotional, financial and spiritual investment in their environment, society will welcome you with open arms.
But, of course, you're wrong. Because you're gay.
This is the crux of the current debate about civil partnerships currently being played out around the country.
And it's one which sees logic railing against illogic; tolerance against intolerance and common sense versus base, rank stupidity.
Frankly, it is a matter of supreme indifference to me if someone is gay, just as it is one of supreme indifference if someone fancies women with big arses or prefers boobs.
After all, you is what you is, as they say, and as long as your proclivities don't extend to children or animals and involves consenting adults, then go at it with gusto (that's the reason why the mass hysteria about Michael Jackson is baffling to me; my first reaction on hearing of his death was to shrug my shoulders and think 'one less paedophile stalking the earth').
But as last Saturday's Dublin Gay Pride march -- marking the 40th anniversary of the momentous Stonewall riots in New York -- proved, large sections of the gay community really do their cause no favours.
Track back a second -- it was interesting to see some of the more prickly members -- as it were -- of the gay community who were so outraged at Bruno.
According to one American gay rights organisation, Bruno: "is pandering to clichés", while here in Ireland, one particularly commentator whined that: "With his naked bottom and angel wings and blond hair ... Bruno is portraying the worst stereotypes of the gay community -- narcissistic, promiscuous and self-indulgent."
And she was right, of course, because that's what satire does -- it takes something that is already there and amps it to 11, and if people are too bovine and stupid to see that then that is their problem, not ours.
If you were to take the stereotypical homophobe and ask him what he thinks of gay people, he would probably accurately describe exactly the kind of idiot you often see at these marches -- assless chaps, handlebar moustaches and a series of people competing with each other to see who can dress in the most outrageous fashion.
And it is completely counterproductive.
The gay community often liken their cause to the Civil Rights cause in America in the 1960s and there are undoubted similarities.
Both were vilified by large sections of the majority population, they were demonised and caricatured.
Myths developed and grew roots and even among some of the more supposedly enlightened sections of the community at large, you would hear the interchangeable refrain of "I'm not racist but ... " or "I'm not homophobic but ... "
And, if gay people are going to continue to use the language of the Civil Rights, as indeed they should, then they should ask themselves this question -- when the black community marched in places like Selma in the 1960s, demanding equality and a stop to the crass demonisation and stereotyping of their community, did any of them dress as jungle savages with bones through their nose and spears in their hand?
Of course they didn't, and anyone who tried to do so wouldn't have lasted long among his peers.
Yet that is exactly what these fools do; they give their critics the opportunity to look at each other with smug confirmation and say: "You see? And these people want to be allowed to adopt children? I don't bloody think so."
If you prance around like a prat, that is how you are going to be treated.
Like everyone else, the gay community needs to realise that if it wants to be accepted by everyone else, they shouldn't be giving their opponents so much bloody ammunition. And they need to stop being so bloody touchy about everything.
Both myself and Kevin Myers have written about the disgraceful disciplinary procedures brought against a bunch of firemen in Nottingham who shon
I agree to an extent, but Pride marches are kind of supposed to be outrageous. It's a moment where we can celebrate our quirky nuances. Fashion, loud dance music, inappropriate attire.
But, for every float full of trannies, there's a group of children and parents walking with signs that read, "I Love My Two Daddies" or "I Love My Mommies". That a lot nicer to see, that's the take-home message from the parade I attended.
Also, it's not an Equal Rights March, or at least the one in Philly wasn't. Pride is a lot different, a little less political, a little more fun. Now, if we don't behave appropriately at this planned Equal Rights march in DC this fall, then we'll have to rethink our decisions a little bit.
I TOTALLY agree with the journalist! I don't even attend Gay Pride parades or events any more because of how out of place I feel, and I'm gay! I feel more like an outcast...and I should feel the opposite.
Pride is supposed to be an event reflecting our pride about being gay and not afraid to live our lifestyle. The worldwide events do not promote being your individual self; they promote stereotypes, promiscuity, and drugs.
Many gay guys I've known flock to Pride events, not to show the world how happy and proud they are to be gay, but to get in on the big parties, show off their bodies, hook up a few times, get smashed, and call it a weekend.
I am truly ashamed of most Gay Pride events. It's not surprising at all that it's taking so long for us to claim our equal rights in this country when we keep perpetuating the stereotypes for which we are judged. Pride does almost nothing to win over the hearts and minds of conservatives and probably worsens their feelings about us.
It's way too much to hope for that Pride would get back to its roots and focus on what is really important: being proud of who we are, individually. Really, that's something anyone, gay, straight, bisexual, etc., should focus on.
I will definitely make myself scarce as Pride descends upon San Diego in a couple weeks. But for those of you who enjoy the meaningless debauchery, have a blast!
It doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you like dick, either.
It has everything to do with what folks are willing to be around, and be tolerant of.
Most folks I know could give a rat's tiny behind who I sleep with, but, they don't need a rainbow rubbed in their face. That disgusts them. That makes them uncomfortable. They push back.
Do you have to be weird to prefer gender x or y? Of course, not. Putting forth "weird" as part of that only serves as a huge hindrance to acceptance.
I've had more than a couple of folks say to me "Chuck, you're the coolest gay guy I know." Why? I think it's because I'm open about it, completely o.k. with it, and I don't rub it in their faces. I don't threaten them, nor make them uncomfortable. In fact, I've had many "bi" athletes talk to me because I'm cool.
Swishing around doesn't buy much with most folks. Doing a good job and being a great guy does.
Are some folks hateful, even in 2009? Yeah. There's still gonna' be the Religous Right / false believers / extremists. One would have to argue that swishing around in high heels could be considered extreme by many, too. You beat hate by becoming likable, and main stream, and walking with your head held high and behaving properly; not by being outlandish.
> If you were to take the stereotypical homophobe and ask him what he thinks of gay people, he would probably accurately describe exactly the kind of idiot you often see at these marches -- assless chaps, handlebar moustaches and a series of people competing with each other to see who can dress in the most outrageous fashion. And it is completely counterproductive.
FAIL. Do (presumed straight) partiers at Mardi Gras live up to straight stereotypes? This is a circular argument: I presume A and generalize about it and thus any instance of A proves that A is universally true?
So if I see an African American eating water-melon.....
Should African Americans avoid eating water-melon lest the racist have a field day with that?
> when the black community marched in places like Selma in the 1960s, demanding equality and a stop to the crass demonisation and stereotyping of their community, did any of them dress as jungle savages with bones through their nose and spears in their hand?
If you look at the gay civil rights marches from the 1960s, you'll see men in 3 piece suits and women in dresses and high heels.
Are we really to so superficially believe that what we wear is what will (or won't) get us equal rights?!
Here's an idea: why don't all gay men marry women, have a house, 2.4 kids and a white picket fence... and presto magic we'll have equal rights, right?
To analogize back to the black community, American society at large was (as far back as I can remember) accepting (or at least more tolerant) of black people who acted white (e.g. Colin Powell) as opposed to those who grew up in the "ghetto". Yet that's not equality.
chuckystud said Do you have to be weird to prefer gender x or y? Of course, not. Putting forth "weird" as part of that only serves as a huge hindrance to acceptance.
I've had more than a couple of folks say to me "Chuck, you're the coolest gay guy I know." Why? I think it's because I'm open about it, completely o.k. with it, and I don't rub it in their faces. I don't threaten them, nor make them uncomfortable. In fact, I've had many "bi" athletes talk to me because I'm cool.
Swishing around doesn't buy much with most folks. Doing a good job and being a great guy does.
Are some folks hateful, even in 2009? Yeah. There's still gonna' be the Religous Right / false believers / extremists. One would have to argue that swishing around in high heels could be considered extreme by many, too. You beat hate by becoming likable, and main stream, and walking with your head held high and behaving properly; not by being outlandish.
Very well said. Pride, to me, is all about rubbing the most extreme parts of gay culture in the faces of everyone else. It is completely outlandish, over-the-top behavior.
To me, being gay does not define my existence. I do not have a gay chip or gene that tells me what music I have to like, how I should dress, what bars or clubs I need to be seen at, what tv shows to watch, etc. I like what I like, and I do what I want to do because of WHO I am, not WHAT I am.
I don't go out of my way to tell people I'm gay. If it comes up, we'll discuss, but really, straight people don't go around saying "I like to fuck the opposite sex". Why should we have to expose our sex preference all the time? Who we like to have sex with shouldn't be that crucial of a conversation except with intimate friends and significant others. The only way many find out I like guys is when I mention who I'm dating at a given time, usually.
I can't wait till the day when we won't even have to fall into such classifications as "straight", "gay", "bi". We can like who we like and go from there. We'll all just be people. Classifications really are quite harmful and constricting in our society.
Caesarea4 said> To analogize back to the black community, American society at large was (as far back as I can remember) accepting (or at least more tolerant) of black people who acted white (e.g. Colin Powell) as opposed to those who grew up in the "ghetto". Yet that's not equality.
I have a Black CPA, several black friends and think President and Mrs. Obama set a wonderful example in taking Grandma to The White House. I think they set an example to Black America to "blend in" more, and to be persistent value education, and not be so antagonistic.
The saying goes, you get more flies with honey than with vinegar. General Powell, and President Obama, are both indicative of that. Gays, and Blacks, that are antagonistic could learn much from that. President Obama, being multi-racial has had to contend with the issue on numerous occasions, I'm sure. Black folks sometimes forget that The President is 1/2 white.
Prejudice sucks. Have I been fired from a job for no reason other than saying I wasn't religious? You bet. Have I been fired from a job for no reason other than someone thinking I liked guys? You bet. Have I been fired from a job for speaking truths rather than not rocking the boat? You bet. Even when I have not been antagonistic, and I know how to be that way as well as the next guy, have I had stuff done? Yes. You don't get ahead, though, by being antagonistic. You get ahead by building bridges / relationships. Is the world fair? Hell no. Ever been 48, and over-qualified? Sucks. I'm not dumb downed enough to work for some folks. Ever tried to get an employer to let a 20 year old brilliant diabetic kid work from home (which makes perfect sense)?
My point is that we all develop views and stereotypes based upon our experiences. I've only had a gun pulled on me by a Black man, ever. (I noted that his girlfriend got 83 returns done a day, and everyone else did 240, and that she made the remark being Black and female "I don't have to worry about my job.") I've only been woke at 0430 by Hip Hop (repeatedly) by the Black dope dealer in the next building over. I've only been told "I will help you when I'm through!!!) by an angry Black woman on the phone at 7-11 when I was the only person in the store. I've only been scolded by Black women CSRs and never by anyone from another race. Now, I'm smart, and I know some wonderful gay folks and some wonderful Black folks. My point is, however, that if I have Black people who believe badly, and I have gay folks who behave badly, no matter what the truth, at a certain point, the stereoptype sets in, and I think all Black women are bitchy and rude, and that all Black guys disregard education and carry firearms, and that all queers are trannies.
It's a tough line. Not an easy answer. Generally speaking, though, decent folks are decent unless you antagonize them.
It sounds like another "we are treated badly because we deserve it rant" .. ie battered wife syndrome, Stockholm syndrome .. etc.
Gay persecution has been going on centuries before there were gay parades. And guess what? Now that there are gay parades gays have more rights than ever here in the U.S. So I see no correlation for the worse. People that hate gays do so because they are homophobic and their religion tells them to.
Internalized homophobia and external homophobia is why people hate anything that is related to "gay" .. you would be hated just as much for holding your boyfriends hand or giving your boyfriend a peck on the lips despite the fact that heterosexuals do that in public all the time.
Heterosexuals are just as outlandish if not more so .. I guess that is why heterosexuals are so persecuted
I think its high time for these embarrassing things to die, but that won't be happening as long as gay baby boomers are around.
Unfortunately, the Toronto Pride Parade have become an enormous cash cow, so its going to be giving people the opportunity to make jackasses of themselves for a long time to come.
And the big difference between Pride and Mardi Gras is that people aren't irresponsible enough to bring their children to Mardi Gras to watch women "earn their beads". I think anyone that brings their kid to the sexed up freak show that pride parades are should be investigated by child and family services. No 6 year-old kid should see a naked man with a dog tail butt plug sticking out of his a** being lead on all fours on a leash. I saw a picture of a kid pointing at that very site at this year's parade.
Every year here I walk along the pride parade route here in San Diego to go to my friend's house where he has a big party with hundreds of friends old and new. I have never seen anything NEAR as crazy as Mardi Gras at that parade. I have never seen the pflag moms hanging their titties out or wearing thongs.
If people get so offensive in public then that is a problem with local law enforcement and laws.
It seems Gay Pride events have morphed from being about creating awareness, even of what some might call extremes of the outlandish, to nothing more than a circuit party on wheels, business opportunity, or maybe a community festival.
If the point is to build bridges and pride, then many of the events I'm aware of tend to be more gay exclusive. Awareness, where these events appear to be the biggest, seems to be not so much of an issue as it was before.
I do believe there are roles for apologists, like Chuckystud, and roles for those that push all kinds of boundaries, like the Brüno characture, and everything in between above and below, beyond, etc...
It would be wonderful if these events really were about inclusion and a conscious effort were made to celebrate a real spectrum/nebula of identities and people so as to confront all kinds of bias that would be great. But the ones I have seen are more about the party and the business side of it all. There is a place for that too, maybe, but not for me in it.
So while pride doesn't make me feel proud, in fact the opposite. I'm not upset it isn't living up to it's name. People who enjoy it can have at it. I'm going to the beach.
I agree no child should have to see pornographic like paraders and for the parents dang you don't let your children see you in fore play nor having sex why would you want to expose your kid to pornographic like paraders all in the name of pride. Again theres a time an place for that. I have a few people tell me "oh why would you want to fo to this pride or that pride parade..once you've seen the " circuit cindies" and the outlandish frocked follies review the parades al gloss to be the same. How about a platoon of guys who've just come home from Afghanistan, how about a regiment of gay nurses or aids hospice workers. What Im saying is there is room for the everyday mainstream guy/gal who is gay to come out and be a part. Im not Jewish but I befriended this elderly shut in here in Honolulu. When he found out that I was gay he protested loudly to my superior..fortunately most of the staff was gay and so he would be trading me in for another gay nurse/caregiver. It took about 7 months for him to warm up to me. I just did my job and lived y life infront of him. Now Im the most everyday guy who comes to work , does a damn good job nursing, takes interests in his everyday life. One day he made mention how he realized that I was just like every one else. I was a good person and that if there were other "falegella's " like me, he would consider sitting down and wathcing a gay pride parade with me. How do you eat and elephant....piece by piece...how do you demystify a gay stereotype...by living your everyday life daily , courageously and w/o guile.
UofTLatinBoy saidI think anyone that brings their kid to the sexed up freak show that pride parades are should be investigated by child and family services. No 6 year-old kid should see a naked man with a dog tail butt plug sticking out of his a** being lead on all fours on a leash. I saw a picture of a kid pointing at that very site at this year's parade.
Is this a strawman or an actual example you've witnessed? If it's the latter and it's against public decency laws of that locality, why didn't the police intervene?
That Pride Parades I've attended (Oslo, '07, '08, and '09) have, at their most provocative, had bears in diapers and a man having his bare bottom spanked aboard the S&M float, but no full frontal nudity.
What's interesting for us is that at the same time guys are decrying the Pride parades, they're forgetting what a completely public site this is, and that anyone can see posts and pics here that could theoretically do just as much damage to your perceived respectability issues as any parade.
Good grief, my sister found this site with minimal effort and she didn't know what it was called!
There's just as much, even more, straight debauchery on TV!
As for the boomers authoring this parade problem, last we looked, most of the scantily clad etc were just twinkles in the eyes of their parents when most boomers were entering their teens...
NickoftheNorth said "Is this a strawman or an actual example you've witnessed? If it's the latter and it's against public decency laws of that locality, why didn't the police intervene?
That Pride Parades I've attended (Oslo, '07, '08, and '09) have, at their most provocative, had bears in diapers and a man having his bare bottom spanked aboard the S&M float, but no full frontal nudity".
Toronto Pride has lots of full frontal nudity. The police stopped enforcing public decency laws a few years ago, so anything goes.
Update: Do an image search on Flickr for Toronto Pride Nude, and you'll get an ideal of what Toronto Pride is like. There's no way Mardi Gras gets that extreme. Toronto Pride is my only reference point, so perhaps other pride parades are more tame then ours.
mardi gras has been repeatedly posed as a counter to outlandish Pride events. The difference, as far as the OP's point, is that mardi gras participants are not a single, easy-to-aggregate (or segregate) minority group.
Someone disgusted with mardi gras is disgusted with the behavior. Someone disgusted by similar behavior at Pride is disgusted with gays....not just the behavior.
It's not fair to extrapolate this disgust to ALL gays, but it's convenient for the general public....It's human nature to assign blame to a 'whipping boy'. If you're a minority group, you're an easy target.
meninlove said What's interesting for us is that at the same time guys are decrying the Pride parades, they're forgetting what a completely public site this is, and that anyone can see posts and pics here that could theoretically do just as much damage to your perceived respectability issues as any parade.
Thanks for bringing that up. There is no logic to internalized homophobia. Yet here they are all the gay guys who don't identify with gay, or are straight acting .. on a site devoted to "GAY FITNESS"
Gays would do well to study the history of homosexuality and civilization if you want to understand why gays are hated and persecuted. The younger guys or newly out guys especially get some notion of why things are the way they are and can't tell you what Stonewall is or what the Mattachine Society was.
Thanks ActiveAndFit, we'd like to direct everyone's attention in particular to the adult sex forums which are completely public.
Now then class, how much damage do you think the subject matter is doing when the Christian Right directs the media, and other of their ilk here? Hmmmmm?
We wonder how many Westboro followers enjoy justification in their small minds with all this RJ ammunition....
gryff88 saidHere is an article from one of the national newspapers in Ireland. Its by a well known journalist. Just curious to see what you all think about what he is saying.
It dosen't really surprise me.....
That newspaper is a conservative right wing rag, founded by the first leader of the irish republican party, with ill gotten funds.
It's always attacking people and pushing a religious, nationalist and borderline racist agenda.
I was at Dublin Pride, and lets just say in comparason to others around the world it is TAME! That and I'm betting he wasn't even there
But it is always accompanied by a group of religious fundamentalists that turn out in the square for a group prayer that it rains on the gays
I really don't think we need to take a stereotpical homophobe because in my mind the author is a sterotypical irish homophobe and has no right writing about a comunity he knows nothing of
Beaux saidmardi gras has been repeatedly posed as a counter to outlandish Pride events..
It's not just Mardi Gras .. it is TV, movies, victoria's secret .. the list goes on and on of how heterosexual SEX permeates our society. Commercials, movie posters, even the super bowl and music videos. The reason that gays are faulted for anything is because they are gay. You could ban gay pride all you want and homophobes would still be homophobes.
MePark saidWho cares, it's one out of 365 days. Life is too short
Lots of people care. It only takes one day out of 365 to do damage and leave an "image" that lingers in the public's mind. I agree that Gay Pride parades hurt more than they help. They contribute to the huge P.R. problem that gays have with the general public. I stopped going to them years ago because I simply could not relate to what I was seeing, nor did I really want to. Sadly, it's the freakish and over-the-top that represent a small minority of the overall gay population that the media chooses to focus on when they cover these parades on the TV news. I suspect that unless gays clean up their act and try to fix this P.R. problem, they only have themselves to blame when initiatives like gay marriage continue to fail. If the gay population wants the general public to buy what they are selling, they need to do a much better job of marketing themselves to the masses.
There are ignorant people out there who have ignorant views towards gays. All that goes on during the gay pride events just reinforce all the negative views ignorant people have.
I think it makes gays pretty much look trashy. I remember when I was rushing to this event at my gym, my friend was fighting. It was during the whole gay pride thing, so everyone was out, and I had a lot of guys hollering all this nasty crap to me, while I had my sons with me. Do all gay people do stuff like this? Nope, however unfortunately the rude, the crude, disrespectful, and trash are always put out there for the world to see, more often than the good. And if I were a different kind of man, a bad man and raised my sons to have poor views, I'd be telling them this is why gays are disgusting, and why they all need to go to hell.
I think if gays want to combat the negative views towards them, they need to clean up some of their own stuff, so that they have a better stance when combating the ignorance, there are even gay men ashamed of the gay world because of the garbage that plagues it.
Nothing wrong with being gay, and gay people should be treated fairly like all other people living in this country, just clean it up.
CuriousJockAZ saidI suspect that unless gays clean up their act and try to fix this P.R. problem, they only have themselves to blame when initiatives like gay marriage continue to fail.
lol, you are old enough to know better than that .. we are closer to gay marriage than ever. The reason gay marriage failed (in some places) is because religious groups rallied because they hate gays because they are gay and they believe that homosexuality is wrong because God/The Bible told them so .. not because pride. If anything marriage and monogamy legitimizes gays as "normal" and the religious crowd cannot have that.
I have had straight friends who support the gay community tell me the same thing. I have not been to a gay pride parade in at least 10 years. However, I will say that I'm not against them and I don't want to see them end. They are of course not the only part of the gay community but they are an important part. We should not have to end them in order to have the same rights.
For people that don't like them, don't watch them. Don't be a part of them. Gay pride parades don't represent the entire gay community and they don't need to. They are what they are. We can teach people that that is not the only part of the gay community without ending them.
CuriousJockAZ said . I suspect that unless gays clean up their act and try to fix this P.R. problem, they only have themselves to blame when initiatives like gay marriage continue to fail. If the gay population wants the general public to buy what they are selling, they need to do a much better job of marketing themselves to the masses.
In California, Proposition 8 almost lost. That's a far cry from the plurality that Prop 22 (the prior gay marriage ban measure) won by. I believe that was 63% to 37%.
Poll after poll show that more and more straight people are understanding the issue, and are experiencing less visceral "recoil" at the notion of two men or two women marrying, or becoming partners. In California, what polls have shown AFTER the Proposition 8 victory, was that many Californians who voted "yes" for that are now experiencing "recoil" at the disinformation campaign that was funded largely by the Catholic Church (as it hid behind the cloak of the Mormon Church and the black evangelical churches) and evidenced by "hit" ads on TV and radio that played to the basest fears and stereotypes.
I have tired of the Gay Pride parades too....but mostly because of boredom, and the mainstreaming of them. There are parts of the parades that are ludicrous, and I am sure that, yes, those aspects offend striaght-laced people. But those people will always be offended by the notion of two men or women having sex, and/or being partnered. There is nothing we can do to convince them.
If you are upset by that aspect of the Gay Pride parades, then serve by example as a role model to your straight friends. Show them that that is a fringe of our community, as much a fringe as go-go dancers are in the straight world.
It pubically makes a mockery of us. All the stereotypes of our gay society are exposed publically. Drag Queens, drugs, alcohol, nakedness, sex gone wild...
This thread is actually my pet peeve. This debate gets heated, and many disagree with me. If it was toned down, fine. Im in. As it stands, Ive attended one Gay Pride. Id never to it again.
CuriousJockAZ said . I suspect that unless gays clean up their act and try to fix this P.R. problem, they only have themselves to blame when initiatives like gay marriage continue to fail. If the gay population wants the general public to buy what they are selling, they need to do a much better job of marketing themselves to the masses.
In California, Proposition 8 almost lost. That's a far cry from the plurality that Prop 22 (the prior gay marriage ban measure) won by. I believe that was 63% to 37%.
Poll after poll show that more and more straight people are understanding the issue, and are experiencing less visceral "recoil" at the notion of two men or two women marrying, or becoming partners. In California, what polls have shown AFTER the Proposition 8 victory, was that many Californians who voted "yes" for that are now experiencing "recoil" at the disinformation campaign that was funded largely by the Catholic Church (as it hid behind the cloak of the Mormon Church and the black evangelical churches) and evidenced by "hit" ads on TV and radio that played to the basest fears and stereotypes.
I have tired of the Gay Pride parades too....but mostly because of boredom, and the mainstreaming of them. There are parts of the parades that are ludicrous, and I am sure that, yes, those aspects offend striaght-laced people. But those people will always be offended by the notion of two men or women having sex, and/or being partnered. There is nothing we can do to convince them.
If you are upset by that aspect of the Gay Pride parades, then serve by example as a role model to your straight friends. Show them that that is a fringe of our community, as much a fringe as go-go dancers are in the straight world.
John
I agree that the fight for gay marriage is slowly gaining ground. My point is that it needn't have moved at such a snail's pace had the gay's "image" problem not been what it is, and that this image problem is perpetuated by things like Gay Pride parades that present some of the seedier sides of gay to the public. It's a basic P.R. problem, and gays need to fix this or the initiatives like gay marriage, while gaining ground, will still have a long way to go.
Delivis saidI agree completely, it is what iève been saying for years.
and yet
I really don't think we need to take a stereotpical homophobe because in my mind the author is a sterotypical irish homophobe and has no right writing about a comunity he knows nothing of.
Is weird only weird because it is being measure against straight standards?
Is condeming gay pride parades saying we have to conform to straight standards because that is what we are used to and therefore feel uncomfortable otherwise?
Can we only have gay rights and be gay if we conform to straight ideals?
I agree in theory...I'd rather gay wasn't associated with screaming queens
But that said gay pride...especially in Ireland and other conservative countries where people are happy to live in their own little bubbles oblivious to the world is still needed...I think the yearly reminder that yes gays exist, they are proud to be who they are, they have every right to not be treated as second class citizens and they are not going to go take themselves behind closed doors and conform to living straight-acting lives in public in exchange for not being condemned to their face
It's easy to decriminate aggainst a silent minority
It's a proverbial slap in the face to people like the author who claim to not be homophobic under the pretext of I'm an accepting guy...gays don't really bother me...as long as they keep there sexual devience behind closed doors
There are far too many people like that in this city that need a reality check
Caslon11000 saidIs weird only weird because it is being measure against straight standards?
Is condeming gay pride parades saying we have to conform to straight standards because that is what we are used to and therefore feel uncomfortable otherwise?
Can we only have gay rights and be gay if we conform to straight ideals?
Society, in general, has to conform to some degree just to fit into the community in which they live. You can't just behave any way you like whether you're gay, straight, whatever, and expect that you're behavior will be accepted by the masses. There are repercussions to behavior that crosses the line in any society -- just a fact of life.
Delivis saidI agree completely, it is what iève been saying for years.
and yet
I really don't think we need to take a stereotpical homophobe because in my mind the author is a sterotypical irish homophobe and has no right writing about a comunity he knows nothing of.
Nonsense. There was nothing in his article that was homophobic.
I agree. In fact, everyone should wear the exact same clothes, have the same skin color, hair color, orientation, religious beliefs, temperament, and behaviors. Wouldn't the world be a much better place?
Nonsense. There was nothing in his article that was homophobic.
I agree. I didn't see it that way either. The problem is that some gays often-times like to play the "homophobe" or "ignorant" card when straight people call them out on certain public behavior that, frankly, they need to be called out on.
i disagree completely with the journalist. people either have the inalienable right to pursue happiness or they don't. there's no quibbling to be done here.
Before pride/Before openly gay 342 - 1969 (1627 years): Death Penalties, imprisonment, anti-gays laws, castration, burning alive, torture, inquisition, lobotomies.
After Stonewall/pride 1969 - 2009 (40 years): Increasing gay rights and acceptance (even if we have a way to go we are close), in all sectors of society, work, military, etc.
Where has the progress been? Things move at a snails pace when you are closeted or indulge apologetic internalized homophobia, not when you are out and accepting of your own sexuality.
Grow up and get some historical perspective if you want to make progress towards a better future.
NPRForty years ago this week, police raided the popular Stonewall Inn, a gay bar in New York City. Such raids were not uncommon at the time, but patrons of the establishment expressed outrage over the practice. The heavy rioting and protests that followed would later become known as The Stonewall Rebellion, which is credited with birthing the modern gay rights movement. Danny Garvin and Martin Boyce witnessed the riots and offer thoughts on how the movement has evolved 40 years later.
Delivis saidI agree completely, it is what iève been saying for years.
and yet
I really don't think we need to take a stereotpical homophobe because in my mind the author is a sterotypical irish homophobe and has no right writing about a comunity he knows nothing of.
Nonsense. There was nothing in his article that was homophobic.
Did it not make sucessive blanket statments sucessivly rerfering to everyone that marched in that parade as a prat, idiot, or fool.....
I'm willing to bet that he wasn't there because my university and my peers university, elected officials and political organisations were there and out-numbered anyone making a fool themselves 10 to 1.
Dublin pride is TAME! Brighton or folsom maybe show cases the more extreme and ecletic members of the gay community but Dublin is not the case
You also don't know the medium in which it's being published, aka the daily conservitive republican news paper in which nothing is ever objective
what some people who live in very tolerant countries/contexts (such as e.g. university students in Toronto) don´t understand is that not all the world is the same. They know it intellectually, but they don´t appreciate that pride parades have a more serious role to play in some places for pushing boundaries which they might not in, eg, San Fran.
Gay pride is nothing more than a "gay" version of the Mardi Gras/Hooters/Football type parades...but for GAY PEOPLE. We are different...maybe a little more creative...but do we condemn the straight folks for what they enjoy? No, we usually JOIN in.....I mean remember The super bowl with Janet Jackson and Justin Timberlake?.... So why all the rage when we are just having fun and being crazy and enjoying life. It's simple really!!
HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY GAY PEOPLE!!
Oh, and just look at California....Billions in debt and no one like it anymore. I say the queens put a curse on the state...If not, someone did...maybe GOD?
DANCE YOUR ASS OFF AND BE HAPPY!!
WHO CARES what others think. Some people actually think better dancing.....A proven fact. www.ted.com
I agree. Mardi Gras and Girls Gone Wild are way more outrageous than gay Pride, and they happen year around.
The other night on television at the gym, Girls Gone Wild videos were all over the screens and some of the stuff they showed were much racier than Gay Pride. Girls kissing girls, showing their tits, girls licking their tits, girls masturbating. It was absurd. The women in the gym were so grossed out and offended. Yet, I never hear any guys (straight or gay) condemn this behavior. Why doesn't the author write a scathing article talking about how these women treated as sex objects don't help women's causes for equal pay with men?
The Onion does a good job sending up this argument. Anyone who actually knows gay people isn't going to be swayed by a Pride event. Besides, the only media outlets that play up the outrageous are the ones who pander to the bigots, homophobes, Evangelicals, and others who wouldn't support us anyway. Real media coverage, as far as I've ever seen, focuses on the fun and political elements, not on the extremes.
If anything is damaging or at least questionable, it's the large commercialization/co-opting of Pride by Corporate Sponsors(TM) who ought to do more with their lobbying money pressuring politicians to get us equal rights instead of just plastered off their booze.
That said, Pride doesn't represent all gays, just as Mardi Gras and/or the Superbowl sloppiness isn't taken to represent all straight people. Furthermore, if there is a strong exhibitionist, sexual element to Pride it makes sense since our sexual side is really what homophobes demonize us for (leaving aside the issue of gender normativity). I'd agree that Pride could stand to be a lot more political, but for many people, just having a day where they can be around their brothers and sisters does a lifetime of good (I'm thinking of that 20-year old who just came out).
Anyway, many straight people will never accept us because we suck each other's dicks...it doesn't matter how "normal", "unassuming", or "straight-acting" we seem and there's little we can do to change that. And for those who are so fond of contrasting today with their nostalgic view of the Civil Rights 60's, just remember there was a MLK AND a Malcolm X...both had very different opinions of what the movement should be, no different from today. 2 cents.
If anything is damaging or at least questionable, it's the large commercialization/co-opting of Pride by Corporate Sponsors(TM) who ought to do more with their lobbying money pressuring politicians to get us equal rights instead of just plastered off their booze.
That said, Pride doesn't represent all gays, just as Mardi Gras and/or the Superbowl sloppiness isn't taken to represent all straight people. Furthermore, if there is a strong exhibitionist, sexual element to Pride it makes sense since our sexual side is really what homophobes demonize us for (leaving aside the issue of gender normativity). I'd agree that Pride could stand to be a lot more political, but for many people, just having a day where they can be around their brothers and sisters does a lifetime of good (I'm thinking of that 20-year old who just came out).
Anyway, many straight people will never accept us because we suck each other's dicks...it doesn't matter how "normal", "unassuming", or "straight-acting" we seem and there's little we can do to change that. And for those who are so fond of contrasting today with their nostalgic view of the Civil Rights 60's, just remember there was a MLK AND a Malcolm X...both had very different opinions of what the movement should be, no different from today. 2 cents.
It's really scraping the bottom of the barrel when you have to trot out Ian O'Dirty, a straight guy who earlier attacked transgendered people, to justify your contempt toward gay pride events.
You do realize this is a straight media person focusing on the minority of "outrageous" participants in pride events, effectively perpetuating stereotypes himself, right? You realize that when you also complain about the way the media focuses on the more outrageous participants at pride, you're talking about people like this writer, right?
I particularly liked this brilliant analogy: "And, if gay people are going to continue to use the language of the Civil Rights, as indeed they should, then they should ask themselves this question -- when the black community marched in places like Selma in the 1960s, demanding equality and a stop to the crass demonisation and stereotyping of their community, did any of them dress as jungle savages with bones through their nose and spears in their hand?"
This moron has absolutely no idea what he's talking about. The APPEARANCE of civil rights workers, black and white, was an endless obsession of their critics. Weird hair, filthy clothes, blah blah blah. I remember my own mother referring to a particular shirt I had as my "Ralph David Abernathy shirt." The attack on appearance only got more pointed with the black power movement. I must have read 2 million words about Angela Davis' afro.
I find it increasingly to be true that the average urban straight person has much less difficulty with the "theatrical" aspect of pride events than insecure gay people themselves.
Delivis saidI agree completely, it is what iève been saying for years.
and yet
I really don't think we need to take a stereotpical homophobe because in my mind the author is a sterotypical irish homophobe and has no right writing about a comunity he knows nothing of.
Nonsense. There was nothing in his article that was homophobic.
I agree. I did not find the article homophobic at all. In fact I thought he was saying the gays who participate, are going about the fight for equality, the wrong way, and I agree.
I am an out homosexual, and I am seen as a positive productive member of society.
People talk about children partaking in the parades with their two dads. How many children go to church too under the influences of their parents, and then when they are old enough to think for themselves, and experiences some of the rel world, they abandoned religion.
I agree these parades do more damage than good, and can understand how people would think,and these people want to bring children into their homes too. OMG.
But I;m sure the far left will not concede they have done wrong, as they have an agenda, and if you don't support us, you are not with us, and that excludes many homosexuals too, noting inclusive about it.
I agree with the original article. I see no real place for Pride Weeks in this day and age, because we're not fighting any cause. Well, maybe we are, but I fail to see what cause it is when you have a few hundred waxed, spray-tanned guys wear as little clothing as possible covered in glitter walking down a street.
Pride isn't really all that big here in Sydney, I guess because we have Mardi Gras. And it's the same issue that comes up every year - is it still relevant?
I watched Milk a few weeks ago and got the sads because I wondered what gay people (including myself) these days are fighting for. I lamanted this and a friend said to me "We're always fighting!" and I replied "The last thing the gays in Sydney got angry enough to protest about was the 2am lockdown imposed so if you left a club you couldn't go into another one for a few hours."
Excellent point. And I'd venture that it's 1 out of 1,000 people who is truly (offensively) outragous - if that.
What's it called when someone generalizes about a whole group based on a few individuals (let alone doing something once a year)?
Racism? That's right.
If a black man is charged with a crime... that reflects on the criminal nature of all black people, right? Of course not, only a racist would argue that (and none would argue that if a white person is charged with a crime that it reflects on all white people.)
Beaux> Someone disgusted with mardi gras is disgusted with the behavior. Someone disgusted by similar behavior at Pride is disgusted with gays....not just the behavior.
Another excellent point. These same people would be just as disgusted by the notion of gay pride if everyone at the parade was dressed in their best church outfit.
The "outrageousness" is just the pretense by which to rationalize their hate. That doesn't change the nature of the beast.
Just where do you see the boundary between "stereotyping" and "racism"?
Seriously, look at the argument that was presented: the outrageousness of a few gay people, at a parade one day a year, is holding back equality for all gay people.
Does that really make any sense at all?
Who do you think it was who may have asked in the 1960s: "how can black people demand equal rights when black criminals are out there harming/damaging the image of black people?" Only a bigot would view a black criminal (but not a white criminal) not as an individual but as an ambassador representing his group.
As for the internalized homophobia, I think the fear is that others (i.e. racists) will ascribe that stereotype (whatever it is, be it queen, leather daddy, clone, "freak"... queer) upon them and they want no part of it. (The "butch" label - say from the gay rugby team that was at Chicago Pride - is welcome yet not generated.)
What correction is necessary? To prevent those two guys in SF pride from marching in a leash, naked, with a butt plug... or to teach the bigots to focus on the other 99.998% of gay people?
Indeed, I'd venture that there were more macho rugby players at the Chicago parade than there were "freaks", so shouldn't this help rather than harm our cause?
I actually don't see how anyone can agree with the author. Most of what he is saying is total bullshit. The fact that this made it into print is beyond me....
I understand both sides of the story. What I don't understand is why you'd want to parade around in ass-less chaps and thongs. Is that the image you are proud of? Is that how you'd want your family to see you? Someone please explain because it makes no sense to me
Makes no sense to me, either, but does it have to? Is it really my business? Why should I even care?
There are some people who may ask what sense it makes for you to walk hand-in-hand with a boyfriend... concluding that you are a freak of nature for doing so.
It also doesn't makes sense to me that people play, let alone watch, golf. (Must be some obssession with putters and balls and holes.... (: )
LOL uh...we're going to the Sex and Adult forums to see how they're destroying gay rights in America.
...while we watch straight sex shows on public TV about dominatrix-es , and people wearing animal costumes for fetish sex....those depraved straights - shouldn't be allowed to marry, in fact they shouldn't get health care either.
I feel deprived!! I have never seen the legendary assless chaps guy at any pride parade I have been to
On the other hand I have seen innumerable scantly clothed heterosexuals at spring break, at the beach, on TV, in the theater, etc ... And all those violent, bloody, oversexed movies and TV shows .. yep, parents and their kids view those all the time maybe heterosexual marriage should be banned
ActiveAndFit saidI feel deprived!! I have never seen the legendary assless chaps guy at any pride parade I have been to
On the other hand I have seen innumerable scantly clothed heterosexuals at spring break, at the beach, on TV, in the theater, etc ... And all those violent, bloody, oversexed movies and TV shows .. yep, parents and their kids view those all the time maybe heterosexual marriage should be banned
Human judgements are based on averages- Yes college kids at spring break act like many guys at gay pride, but the difference is the majority grow up marry and raise families-NOT all, but a much larger percentage. If you take the same percentage, NOT total number of gay men the %- the major majority are NOT the same as hetero couples at all. Just look at the average number of sex partners in gay men vs straight men- You can be proud without doing things that prove the sterotype and hold up Prop 8!! Think about it.
An average promiscuous straight man boasts he's had at least 200 different sex partners form age 12-30. An average promiscuous gay man 12-30 are considerably much higher- alot higher. Wake up!-- Some guys want their dick/cake and eat it too-then don't complain you can't marry!! Grow up! Make a change!!
some of these other comparisons like mardi gras and carnaval are lame comparisons because straight and heteros attend.
MikemikeMike saidHuman judgements are based on averages- Yes college kids at spring break act like many guys at gay pride, but the difference is the majority grow up marry and raise families-NOT all, but a much larger percentage. If you take the same percentage, NOT total number of gay men the %- the major majority are NOT the same as hetero couples at all. Just look at the average number of sex partners in gay men vs straight men- You can be proud without doing things that prove the sterotype and hold up Prop 8!! Think about it.
Human Judgments are largely based on fear and hypocrisy which don't respond to reason very well. Gay people unlike heteros have not had the option to "grow up marry and raise families" SO trying to reason that gay men should not have marriage because they don't act like married people is the most ridiculous circular illogic. What do the number of sex partners have to do with people at a pride parade? This kind of irrational thinking is merely the product of homophobic ranting. Here is a real statistic about heterosexual marriage for you .. "Recent studies reveal that 45-55% of married women and 50-60% of married men engage in extramarital sex at some time or another during their relationship (Atwood & Schwartz, 2002 - Journal of Couple & Relationship Therapy)"
And why is it that people who do not even live in California are experts on proposition 8? Proposition 8 had zero to do with pride or number of sex partners and everything to do with Religious groups saying that churches were going to have to perform gay marriages and that children were going to be taught homosexuality. Even at that it almost lost.
I am never surprised to hear this sort of nonsense from closeted homophobes who project their own warped way of thinking on other gays.
Tune in during the last week in October, when a homophobe gets his panties in a snit over Folsom and the same characters reprise their roles, with some new 20-something starring in the "masculine, manly-man, man's man, all man, desperately manly" role.
Caesarea4 saidMakes no sense to me, either, but does it have to? Is it really my business? Why should I even care?
There are some people who may ask what sense it makes for you to walk hand-in-hand with a boyfriend... concluding that you are a freak of nature for doing so.
It also doesn't makes sense to me that people play, let alone watch, golf. (Must be some obssession with putters and balls and holes.... (: )
You are right, it doesn't have to make sense! Its all about freedom of expression and just plain being free.
As for those who don't get it and for those who watch golf....perhaps they suffer from one of these lodged in their rectums:
chuckystud said Are some folks hateful, even in 2009? Yeah. There's still gonna' be the Religous Right / false believers / extremists. One would have to argue that swishing around in high heels could be considered extreme by many, too. You beat hate by becoming likable, and main stream, and walking with your head held high and behaving properly; not by being outlandish.
In other words... you beat hate by caving in to it and changing who you are to suit other people's standards? That's not beating hate--that's succumbing to it. And this is EXACTLY what gay pride parades--as extreme and over-the-top as they are--are meant to overcome.
ActiveAndFit saidI feel deprived!! I have never seen the legendary assless chaps guy at any pride parade I have been to
On the other hand I have seen innumerable scantly clothed heterosexuals at spring break, at the beach, on TV, in the theater, etc ... And all those violent, bloody, oversexed movies and TV shows .. yep, parents and their kids view those all the time maybe heterosexual marriage should be banned
Human judgements are based on averages- Yes college kids at spring break act like many guys at gay pride, but the difference is the majority grow up marry and raise families-NOT all, but a much larger percentage. If you take the same percentage, NOT total number of gay men the %- the major majority are NOT the same as hetero couples at all. Just look at the average number of sex partners in gay men vs straight men- You can be proud without doing things that prove the sterotype and hold up Prop 8!! Think about it.
An average promiscuous straight man boasts he's had at least 200 different sex partners form age 12-30. An average promiscuous gay man 12-30 are considerably much higher- alot higher. Wake up!-- Some guys want their dick/cake and eat it too-then don't complain you can't marry!! Grow up! Make a change!!
some of these other comparisons like mardi gras and carnaval are lame comparisons because straight and heteros attend.
The point is that any one's promiscuity--even the majority's--has no effect on inborn civil rights. It's a proven fact that discrimination breeds disorder. If in fact having multiple sex partners is a disorder, then the discrimination against gays is to blame. Using a symptom of discrimination to justify that same discrimination is false logic, and no one has a right to use such an indefensible argument.
I agree with part of what has been said above... I think Pride can serve a purpose, but some of the behaviors demonstrated don't show reason, common sense or forthought.
I agree, it should be fun, but for some straights it might convey a "We're here, we're queer, get over it"! Sort of an "in your face kind of conveyance. In this day and age, is that still what we want to convey......?
When I was in my 20's and sexual preference wasn't acknowledged (and with my limited perceptions).. I thought of "gays" as those who "are in your face, marching, etc". Do I really want to be like that? It was a uneducated "perception"...... but what do some straights even now think?
styrgan> I also have never seen the guy on a leash with a butt plug that Caesarea was referring to.
Original reference was by UofTLatinBoy. It's amazing how most of us - who go to pride parades - actually haven't seen this stuff. Kind of makes me think, assuming they do exist, that if they didn't exist someone would invent them.
MikemikeMike> some of these other comparisons like mardi gras and carnaval are lame comparisons because straight and heteros attend
Heteros also attend gay pride marches, so I guess the comparisons are very valid.
MMM> Human judgements are based on averages
Really? You think your average homophobe goes out and does research and decides that he's against gay marriage or gays in the military because the average gay guy has more sex partners? Are you saying the average homophobe is jealous or that such an argument is logical?
Does the average black guy like watermelon or not...? Does a racist really care?
MMM> An average promiscuous straight man boasts he's had at least 200 different sex partners form age 12-30.
Wow, I only had about 20. Obviously the average straight man shouldn't be allowed to marry and I should be, right?
Worth repeating:
crtrainer> If I judged people by thier behaviour at these events I'd be a bigot.
Bingo! Let me add this thought: negative images of gay people existed long before 1969. You know, we were insane and child molesters. So if the negative image is now that some of us wear outrageous things... maybe that's progress! (:
t0theheights> you beat hate by caving in to it and changing who you are to suit other people's standards? That's not beating hate--that's succumbing to it.
Right, which led me to quip earlier that to satisfy some people, we'll need to marry a woman, have 2.4 children and a white picket fence. Consider how many still do that.
I wonder why we NEVER EVER hear or read about the hot bodied women in bikinis or hotpants with practically nothing but pasties covering their tits who are there for every nascar race. That Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders wear as little as many men at a pride parade, but never ever do we hear a discouraging word about that. Rhetorically speaking, I wonder why.
Sorry, but my equal rights and fair treatment shouldn't be held out like a reward to see how well I can 'blend in' to what the mainstream society things is proper.
Isn't the point of our movement to be accepted for who, and what, we are?
And I've said this before... if more of you "zomg, I'm so straight acting and butch and NORMAL!" types would join up into a few parade floats... well, then you'd be part of it. But no. You're all too busy trying to blend into what 'they' want you to be.
In other words... you beat hate by caving in to it and changing who you are to suit other people's standards? That's not beating hate--that's succumbing to it. And this is EXACTLY what gay pride parades--as extreme and over-the-top as they are--are meant to overcome.
If that is what gay pride parades are meant to overcome -- NEWSFLASH -- they ain't workin'.
CuriousJockAZ> If that is what gay pride parades are meant to overcome -- NEWSFLASH -- they ain't workin'.
Really? Because we were so much better off before 1969? And since then we're worse off as the result of the "damage" done?
The Mattachine society got nowhere by dressing up in suits and ties (and skirts and heels for lesbians) when they pioneered gay marches in the 1960s. (Nonetheless kudos for their efforts, especially in those times.)
http://kamenypapers.org || The Mattachine Committee on Picketing and Other Lawful Demonstrations, Regulations for Picketing. “Precepts: Picketing is not an occasion for an assertion of personality, individuality, ego, rebellion, generalized non-conformity or anti-conformity. It is an occasion for organized effort. … Men will wear suits, white shirts, ties; women will wear dresses.”
So let me get this straight (no pun intended), if we just try to act more "normal" then we'll be accepted.
Then I guess if those guys who are in the armed forces would just stop being so swishy, they would accept us there right?
And if the log cabin boys would just conform to the conservative agenda, then they would be openly accepted into the Republican party, right?
I know you guys mean well, and I understand the desire to want everyone to behave in a way that is acceptable, but really guys it doesn't work that way.
History has shown that people don't stop hating because you wear the same clothes or speak the same language. Those are just excuses used by people who wish to discriminate.
It is a shame that the energy wasted bashing other lifestyles is not used in a positive way. Instead of picking on people for being different, it would be nice if people just tried to find ways to make a difference that expresses their own personal views on life.
I must say that I pretty much agree with the article. Watching the pride parade from Toronto on the evening news made me realize what a terrible impression we must make on people who have never met an actual gay person before.
People interviewed were saying how it was good just to be themselves, and being open, and clips were cut in with exceptionally drunk, almost naked men running around like 12 year old boys giggling and being overtly sexual.
Now some guys on here have referenced Mardi Gras, and other events as justification for this behavior, but there are 3 points I have against that comparison, and one reason it doesn't matter.
1. It's a single city running the event, unlike pride parades that run all over the country and world. 2. It doesn't claim to represent any one people group, other than those who want to get drunk and act out sexually, whereas the LGBT community often state that their parade does. 3. It's primarily young adults that attend, unlike the mixed age group that attends the pride parades, including children.
The comparison doesn't even matter, just because Mardi Gras exists does not mean a majority of American's support what goes on at the event, or condone the sorts of behavior that happens. Many are willing to overlook it, but I doubt any parents want to see their daughter on a "Girl Gone Wild" video.
Back in the 70's and 80's when the gay movement began rising up to defend themselves, I think the idea of having overt sexuality made sense. It was used to shock the culture who wanted to completely hide and suppress the notion of gay sexuality. The world needed to know that they couldn't shut us up and hide us away any longer. And it worked.
Today however, we have gay television shows, musicians, athletes... I think we've come to the point where they've realized they can't push us into the closet anymore. Now our goal should be to demonstrate how much we are like them. The fact that we all seek the same basic needs from our society, that we all work in the same offices, gyms and construction sites.
I think some of the older generation are still bitter about the way they were treated as young men, and I can understand that, but I believe its time for the younger generation to stand up and lead a group of gay men to a new movement.
If we want the rights to marry and adopt, we have to show that we can be responsible and level headed, and the truth is, that many of us already are. It's time to throw away the old culture that said just because our sexuality is different, that means we need to focus more on it. We need to take down the images of half naked men in bondage gear from our local coffee shops, so that our children can come inside with us.
I think we've done the Pride thing very well, maybe it's time to get some Dignity.
If that is what gay pride parades are meant to overcome -- NEWSFLASH -- they ain't workin'.
From the man whose every prediction and assessment of "the facts" during the election season turned out wrong? Can you enlighten us with examples of how we've stagnated or regressed in acceptance and/or civil rights since the dawn of the modern Gay Pride era?
Change of topic...
Another interesting thing. SF has probably one of the longest (some would say most excruciating) Pride parades in the world. The reason is because of the organizers' fanatical devotion to inclusiveness. If you actually come here and watch one, you'll notice that the people that march in it are by far just normal people indistinguishable in appearance from straight people. Firemen and women, police, doctors, Google employees, transit workers, teachers, and on and on. Just marching happily and getting cheered by the crowd. That's the majority of what pride here is.
It's almost always the business or corporate floats that feature guys in bikinis with squirt guns writhing to the latest Madonna remix. And it's these floats that the homophobes (both straight and gay, both in the "professional" media and not, both on RJ and not) will focus on. They say: oh why oh why can't these people who look and act gay just stop it? Odds are those floats are just as likely coming from the brain of some straight corporate marketing person's idea of what gay people are like.
Oy.
PS Curious, while my ignore list is pretty huge these days, for some reason I haven't wanted to put you on it, even tho I've been disagreeing with just about everything you've posted on RJ since I joined. I think I must be falling for you or something.
iguanaSF said Curious, while my ignore list is pretty huge these days, for some reason I haven't wanted to put you on it, even tho I've been disagreeing with just about everything you've posted on RJ since I joined. I think I must be falling for you or something.
It's because Curious at least has a coherent point of view, often articulately stated. I have a feeling we have a similar "ignore" list....and that includes people who insult, belittle, name-call and froth at the mouth.
Oh, by the way, I am still waiting to be informed about the late-October/early November pre-election "surprise" that Curious and John12345677 were talking about...that would give the election to the Republicans. Oh, I know what it was....they thought it would be Palin...
Markus_wip saidNow some guys on here have referenced Mardi Gras, and other events as justification for this behavior, but there are 3 points I have against that comparison, and one reason it doesn't matter.
1. It's a single city running the event, unlike pride parades that run all over the country and world. 2. It doesn't claim to represent any one people group, other than those who want to get drunk and act out sexually, whereas the LGBT community often state that their parade does. 3. It's primarily young adults that attend, unlike the mixed age group that attends the pride parades, including children.
The comparison doesn't even matter, just because Mardi Gras exists does not mean a majority of American's support what goes on at the event, or condone the sorts of behavior that happens. Many are willing to overlook it, but I doubt any parents want to see their daughter on a "Girl Gone Wild" video.
Back in the 70's and 80's when the gay movement began rising up to defend themselves, I think the idea of having overt sexuality made sense. It was used to shock the culture who wanted to completely hide and suppress the notion of gay sexuality. The world needed to know that they couldn't shut us up and hide us away any longer. And it worked.
You are wrong on several accounts ..
1.Mardi Gras is actually in multiple cities and all over the world I posted one in san diego which follows the same theme of drunken debauchery and oversexualized women just to prove that point.
2."Straight" events don't have to declare anything because they are by default about heterosexuality. YOU don't have to make a claim about something that everyone understands is true. Spring break and Mardi gras are about hetero drinking AND sex and people go to it for that reason DO you think that drunk men drooling over half naked dancing women is about homosexuality? If someone shows up at a Pride parade in an extreme way, it is just that .. extreme and not what most people are there for. If you perceive a problem with Toronto you are probably projecting it on other places without really knowing .. how many pride parades have you been to and where?
3.People of all ages attend Mardi Gras as well as other very [hetero] sexualized events. As said before other parades where people drink as well as everyday movies, tv, and advertising are sexualized in a hetero way.
What does this all mean? Sexuality is everywhere in our face. The amount of gay overt sexuality is exaggerated and seems offensive because Homophobia. The vast majority of overt sexuality is hetero, yet it is accepted as "Normal" and OK. This double standard is what we call prejudice and homophobia which has existed way before gays were "out and proud" - the comparison DOES MATTER because it teaches you something about prejudice, hypocrisy and ignorance -->Translate: It is OK to be hetero, it is NOT OK to be homo.
You are largely ignoring the basis of some of the claims here and not backing things up with fact. The claim is that "pride" is setting us back for instance. The fact is that since Stonewall and the advent of pride parades gays have made much advance that the 'hide" and be "normal" approach did not accomplish.
For sure, the younger generation will have it better and they will come up with their own way of doing things, but if you don't really look at history and get some facts you will flounder and repeat the same mistakes and bad assumptions as before. And don't think that this is all over or all about the guys who have it easy and comfy, because the ones who were brave enough to make a stand. There are many places in the world where being gay is still a crime.
Broaden your mind geographically and historically before jumping on the conservative bandwagon and apologizing for gay people that you don't even know. Maybe what you are perceiving as bitterness is in fact DIGNITY .. DIGNITY that says stop casting the majority of gays in the same stereotypical fashion as homophobic people. Beside I don't know why you think PRIDE and DIGNITY are somehow different
And by the way, in the U.S. we do have Gay Marriage in some states as well as the ability to adopt. Public opinion is shifting in favor of gays and away from fundamentalism despite the claims that "pride" sets us back. Everyone that seems to be such experts but will not even post polls or evidence to back up those claims.
Pride parade in our city is a disgrace. Many participants run around drunk and screeching "girl!!!!" and it perpetuates a stigma that does nothing for the community
Who cares what the article said. People who have fear, hatred or ignorance about gay people (including gay people themselves) are supposed to write things like that. That's their job........to editorialize, trivialize and characterize.
As other guys have said here, there are many other aspects to the march.
Can you imagine the courage it took for some of those people to put themselves out there? They weren't focused on the flamboyance. They were focused on their pride..defining it for themselves.
The minute you start being too careful about what people will think, or say, is the minute you loose your courage and pride and end up becoming their pawn. And it doesn't matter. "They" includes gay or straight circles.
So no. A strong NO. Gay pride does not do more damage than good.
(see other topic "A Higher Purpose to Gay Pride").
In Chicago alone it was predicted that 450,000 people were to attend the gay pride prade just a couple of weeks ago.
I can't say how many were straight but I would imagine that a substantial percentage of them were there for either support or to enjoy the tawdriness of it all.
Live and let live is what I go by, but I cannot affiliate myself with booze, drugs, drama and campy bullshit. To me that is what a pride parade is all about. If I wanted that I could go to a gay bar any night of the week in Chicago. Not happening. Pass.
It still was thrilling to see thousands and thousands of people who were marching or watching. For them taking a pass at the whole thing wasn't good enough.
They were courageous enough to stand up define their own way and speak up. For them, it had nothing to do with booze, drugs and campy bullshit.
Any parade or for that matter anything in life that's worth it has drama. Passion= Drama. Some people enjoy drama in books, film, tv, politics etc. Other people actually participate in it in order to make things happen and create their own destiny.
For those who haven't read it...this is the authors previous article...make of it what you will
The only gay in the village
By Ian O'Doherty
Tuesday May 05 2009
Welsh police in Dyfed Powys have hired a transsexual to help their officers deal with the scourge of "transgender phobic violence".
Mark Douglas, a 49-year-old father of two, decided to become a laydee 18 months ago and now insists on being called Michelle. So we'll call him Mark.
He meets officers on a regular basis to explain the joy of wearing women's knickers and make up and all the horrid things that nasty people might say to him.
Or her, depending on where you stand on the issue of blokes who think they're women.
According to Mark: "I get a real buzz from doing the course. I'm in my comfort zone."
So, has there been a worrying rise in tranny-bashing in the area? Actually, as the cops admit: "While there is no recorded hate crime in the area, that isn't to say it doesn't exist."
Um, actually, it kinda does, when you think about it.
What next, they're going to set up a unit investigating leprechauns, because "while there is no record of them in the area, that is not to say they don't exist"?
WHAT A CHARMER
Jamie Foxx really excelled himself when he suggested that 16-year-old Miley Cyrus should make a sex tape and start doing drugs.
It was all rather tawdry but he at least had the decency to come out later and apologise.
But the story gets even more interesting.
Because it has emerged that during the radio show where he made the comments, his fellow guest referred to the Hannah Montana star as "that white bitch".
Now, is this the same Jamie Foxx who claimed he was going to hunt down and batter Michael Richards after the Seinfeld actor went completely off the deep end during his stand up show and started coming out with racist drivel?
Oh wait, I forgot -- only white people can be racist.
A NUTTER WRITES ...
The whole debate between believers and atheists is getting as tedious as it is pointless.
But serial letter-writer Eric Conway, who is an ardent supporter of Dermot Ahern's Blasphemy bill, a piece of legislation as disgusting and intellectually bankrupt as the Minister himself, has come up with an interesting new concept -- he wants atheism to be classed as a thought crime.
Yup, pointing out that there's no evidence for a supernatural being should be a thought crime, but believing that a glass of red wine literally becomes the blood of a 2,000-year-old dead Jew, is perfectly sane?
Tall_Drink_of_Water saidPride is supposed to be an event reflecting our pride about being gay and not afraid to live our lifestyle. The worldwide events do not promote being your individual self; they promote stereotypes, promiscuity, and drugs.
Respectfully, bullshit. If you don't feel like you can be yourself-- whatever kind of gay man you are-- at Pride, then that's your issue. It's not "Pride's fault" if you feel put out by some kind of self-imposed pressure to conform. Plenty of us who don't feel compelled to 'act out' still enjoy Pride because we love to see all the diversity on display. Whether we personally identify with them or not, the drag queens and the leatherfolk and the bears and the anorexic bespeedoed twinks are all part of 'the tribe,' and not because they wanted to be outsiders. It's the majority 'insiders' who define the outsiders. As long as the hardcore homophobes are going to hate us for who we love and how we fuck in private, no matter how buttoned-down and 'normal' we might look, why the hell should any of us pander to them? Conformity won't appease them, so fuck conformity and celebrate the freedom to transgress. Even if you don't transgress yourself, uphold the rights of other people to do so, maybe they'll get the opportunity to reciprocate and stand up for you someday. And it's not like our more eccentric revelers are hurting anybody.
Tall_Drink_of_Water saidI am truly ashamed of most Gay Pride events. It's not surprising at all that it's taking so long for us to claim our equal rights in this country when we keep perpetuating the stereotypes for which we are judged. Pride does almost nothing to win over the hearts and minds of conservatives and probably worsens their feelings about us.
To reiterate: bullshit! Opposition to gay rights isn't based on opposition to Pride events. If every Pride parade was discontinued tomorrow, the adamant conservatives' hatred for us wouldn't abate one bit. Because they find what we do in private revolting, what we do in public is incidental to them. Giving up or watering down our defiant celebratory events wouldn't advance any cause at all, it would be a retreat back into the closet. Which is exactly where they want us, because if we're invisible then it's easier to oppress us. If no one sees us, no one will see our rights being eroded and our human dignity being stripped away.
It isn't the 'stereotypes' on public display one day out of the year that fuels bigots' hatred towards us. It's their own ignorance, their own refusal to acknowledge difference, their own need for everyone to conform to their narrow worldviews in order to validate them. As long as we aren't submitting to their demands in the bedroom too-- indeed, as long as we aren't submitting in our very souls to their heteronormative facism-- they will go on despising and opposing us. Stop fooling yourself with this nonsense that if we just "behave" and all act "proper" that they'll start to respect us. They won't, not as long as they think that two men fucking is 'disgusting' or offends their imaginary friend in the sky. The impetus is on them to accept harmless diversity, not on us to humour their prejudices and 'police' other homos who choose to express themselves differently.
I wonder why we NEVER EVER hear or read about the hot bodied women in bikinis or hotpants with practically nothing but pasties covering their tits who are there for every nascar race. That Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders wear as little as many men at a pride parade, but never ever do we hear a discouraging word about that. Rhetorically speaking, I wonder why.
Well obviously, because society's still geared to the tastes and prejudices of the empowered straight male. And the empowered straight male culture excels at-- among other things-- A) exploiting women, often by encouraging them to sexually objectify themselves for the straight man's pleasure; and B) using shame to reign in and control the sexuality of other men in order to legitimize their own displeasure at having had their own sexuality reigned in and controlled. After all, if you'd like to be fucking around freely, sowing your wild oats (like evolution has wired male homo sapiens to) but you feel trapped in conformity to a socially-fabricated lifestyle characterized by a wife neutering you and children exploiting you, how better to comfort yourself than by perpetuating that paradigm for others? There's no doubt in my mind that at least some straight men who take issue with gay men do so because they believe in the stereotype that we're all life-long party boys getting laid all the time and never having to grow up into family men... and they're jealous as hell that they aren't doing the same (only with women).
The 'establishment' man loves his women to be under him, and all other men to be at least as beaten-down and unhappy as he is.
iguanaSF said PS Curious, while my ignore list is pretty huge these days, for some reason I haven't wanted to put you on it, even tho I've been disagreeing with just about everything you've posted on RJ since I joined. I think I must be falling for you or something.
Or, maybe you are just able to accept that others have opinions that are different than your own -- and that's okay.
When I said gay pride parades "aint workin" in terms of gaining gays acceptance, that was in no way to suggest that gays are not gradually making great strides on all sorts of fronts -- of course they are. I was talking specifically about gay pride parades themselves -- the topic of this thread -- and whether or not they are doing more harm than good. I do not believe that gay pride parades help in any way towards gaining acceptance, in fact, quite the opposite. I think we are being naive if we think that the average straight person can stand on the sidelines and observe the goings on of a typical gay pride parade and come away from that thinking that's a whole hell of a lot to be proud about. Just too many negative images reinforcing negative stereotypes going on in a gay pride parade to do a whole lot of helping when it comes to the "image" problem that gays seem to struggle with when it comes to the general public opinion. Now, many of you may say you don't care what THEY think and you'll carry on any way you like because you're celebrating diversity or expressing your individuality or whatever, and that's all fine and good. That said, don't bitch and moan when those looking on and watching the spectacle don't embrace what you're selling.
In focusing on petty details of dress and behaviours of some, it's easy to miss the real message and push behind Gay Pride, and this, THIS makes the parade a huge cut above straight mardi gras and other explicit displays of heterosex.
I wish I knew how it would feel to be free I wish I could break all the chains holding me I wish I could say all the things that I should say Say 'em loud say 'em clear For the whole wide world to hear
I wish I could share All the love that's in my heart Remove all the bars that keep us apart And I wish you could know how it is to be me Then you'd see and agree that every man should be free
I wish I could be like a bird in the sky How sweet it would be if I found I could fly Well I'd soar to the sun and look down at the sea And I'd sing cos I know how it feels to be free
I wish I knew how it would feel to be free I wish I could break all the chains holding me And I wish I could say all the things that I wanna say Say 'em loud say 'em clear For the whole wide world to hear Say 'em loud say 'em clear For the whole wide world to hear Say 'em loud say 'em clear For the whole wide world to hear
One love one blood One life you've got to do what you should One life with each other Sisters, brothers
One love but we're not the same We got to carry each other Carry each other One One One One One...
I knew how it would feel to be free I knew how it would feel to be free
Stand tall and cast a long all inclusive shadow, men!
I think we are being naive if we think that the average straight person can stand on the sidelines and observe the goings on of a typical gay pride parade and come away from that thinking that's a whole hell of a lot to be proud about. Just too many negative images reinforcing negative stereotypes going on in a gay pride parade to do a whole lot of helping when it comes to the "image" problem that gays seem to struggle with when it comes to the general public opinion.
Your sense of the "average straight person" may have about the same statistical validity as your sense, last year, of the American electorate. Perhaps your views are formed by anecdotal examples drawn from a highly statistically biased sample... say the right-leaning citizens of the greater Phoenix/Scottsdale environs, perhaps? (An area I'm quite familiar with, it so happens).
The point many posters have made here is that these "negative images" are a verifiable distortion of Pride celebrations, which are, across the country and the world, dominated by absolutely "normal" looking people. I say verifiable because all you need to do is visit any pride parade and count the contingents that are marching, placing them in a "hetero-normative box" or a "flaming/shocking" box. There's no contest.
Why then, the perpetual fretting about the "shocking" minority and how they are, ipso facto, by their very "shockingness", impeding progress for all us gays?
Who do you think focuses on this minority? It's another minority: the homophobic minority. The homophobic minority includes both gay and straights.
Again, as other posters have said before me: the logic that predicts better progress for gays if only we start acting "normal" belies a certain ignorance of other struggles for civil rights by blacks and women. It never mattered how well these people dressed -- the "phobic" (conservative, resistant to change) contingent will always look at the demonstrating group as "other" regardless of how well groomed they are. Again, history shows that "assimilation" is never the path to civil rights -- it IS the path, however, that the conservatives always want the oppressed to take -- the path that is quiet, accepting, conforming, invisible, and requires no uncomfortable change.
I think you are beating up on yourself......and gay people....by thinking what "you think" straight people think.
they get laid...have sex....get raunchy.....just like anyone else.........have financial.emotional concerns just like us.
They do, however.......have the freedom to hold hands.....kiss in public etc...which is something we don't generally have. If gay people don't actively push for the same acceptance, then we will be confined to dark corners....afterhours encounters and never see the sun.
I think the outrageousness of the parade......the flamboyance...the emphasis on carnal pursuits....is more intense since "we" are frustrated and discriminated against....angry.......and want to say we have had enough.
perhaps in 10 years....or a million.there won't be a need for the parade..........or if there is..it will have a very different tone. But it won't happen if there are so many gay people who don't get up and be who they are as individuals........there is no "gay lifestyle".....if you don't like what you see out there in the gay " community" then define yourself as a gay man your way.........not by isolating yourself from it....but by being part of it and changing it........................Do THAT and show society who you are as a gay man.....
I was so proud to see so many different organizations marching representing many different types of people. Anyone who dismiss the parade as a negative image thing clearly was not there or chooses to see only what they consider the negatives....(kinda like some straight idiots).
Put a human face onto the whole discussion. And if some guys want to wiggle their asses in a parade..........SO WHAT?
Goddamit...........let's be good to ourselves...and look in the mirror with dignity and respect.
[quote][cite]Markus_wip said[/cite]I must say that I pretty much agree with the article. Watching the pride parade from Toronto on the evening news made me realize what a terrible impression we must make on people who have never met an actual gay person before.
Well stated Markus-you are the hope for the future!
You missed my point t0theheights - don't complain about wanting to marry and acting like college kids your whole life-not you, but men that have no self respect and then want respect as fathers of children!!!!!! Society will not accept it as it stands now.(actually college guys on spring break are happy to get laid once or twice, or with the same girl for the week. I used to be one and I was married. Many gay men at pride have 50-100 diffrent partners in a week-end. Don't tell me you NEVER heard of this??? If so put your head back in the sand and your ass in the air. Raising a child has to do with putting their needs and wants ahead of your own. I know many gay men that say they want to be number 1 all the time and the self centeredness is mind boggling!! It does in fact ruin it for men that want to marry and become parents. Wake up-then grow up! Next time answer me ONLY in a forum not a cowardly e-mail to me.
---- FROM t0theheights Jul 04, 2009 at 8:12 AM The point is that any one's promiscuity--even the majority's--has no effect on inborn civil rights. It's a proven fact that discrimination breeds disorder. If in fact having multiple sex partners is a disorder, then the discrimination against gays is to blame. Using a symptom of discrimination to justify that same discrimination is false logic, and no one has a right to use such an indefensible argument.
Beyond what images appear on TV from Pride events, the real question everyone should be asking themselves is this: "What am I doing, in my daily life and with the people I care about, to present an open, honest look into what it's like to be a gay person? In short - what kind of gay person am I?"
I'd say the way we answer that question on a personal level has a far greater impact than the stereotypical impressions from Pride for the people who know and love us.
especially the gay ones
