Another thread for Sedative

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    Jul 06, 2009 11:41 PM GMT
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    Jul 07, 2009 5:59 AM GMT
    I think Sedative will love this!

    ...........................Yamazaki 2 Pictures, Images and Photossnk joe Pictures, Images and Photosamakusa Pictures, Images and PhotosYamazaki 4 Pictures, Images and PhotosDuck King Pictures, Images and Photos
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    Jul 07, 2009 6:52 AM GMT
    Speaking of C, why does the English alphabet have 3 letters (C, K, and Q) that have a hard "K" sound?
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    Jul 07, 2009 6:55 AM GMT
    because of the variety of languages from which we get our words
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    Jul 07, 2009 6:55 AM GMT
    Caslon11000 saidSpeaking of C, why does the English alphabet have 3 letters (C, K, and Q) that have a hard "K" sound?
    Queryosity Killed the Cat icon_lol.gif
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    Jul 07, 2009 7:00 AM GMT
    Caslon11000 saidSpeaking of C, why does the English alphabet have 3 letters (C, K, and Q) that have a hard "K" sound?


    I'm with DancerJack on this one. If I may, how are you Caslon? Just wanted to venture a question now that I can officially do so, post 1000 posts.
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    Jul 07, 2009 7:35 AM GMT
    dancerjack saidbecause of the variety of languages from which we get our words

    ..........................No.


    ActiveAndFit saidQueryosity Killed the Cat icon_lol.gif

    ..........................Cute. But no.


    BradySF saidI'm with DancerJack on this one. If I may, how are you Caslon? Just wanted to venture a question now that I can officially do so, post 1000 posts.

    ..........................Then you are wrong with Dancerjack. I felt extraordinarily fine today. Thank you.
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    Jul 07, 2009 7:43 AM GMT
    omg...now I have another song that will pop into my head at work and sing out loud...ha
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    Jul 07, 2009 9:31 AM GMT
    Yadda yadda yadda! Songs don't give me cookies!

    And I liked the original better. icon_evil.gif



    Caslon11000 saidSpeaking of C, why does the English alphabet have 3 letters (C, K, and Q) that have a hard "K" sound?


    I thought you liked etymology. icon_surprised.gif

    Etruscan had no voiced plosive consonants (b, d, g; which has the unvoiced counterparts p, t, and k/c) and thus adopted the greek letter for G (gamma) to represent the /k/ sound. This carried over to Early Latin which though having a /g/ sound also used a derivative of the etruscan alphabet (and thus had no letter for G). So they used the same letters (a gamma derivative which look like the modern C) for the /k/ sound and the /g/ sound. Furthermore, the Greek alphabet was reintroduced to the Romans and added two new letters for the same sounds: Q (Qoppa) and K (Kappa). These were also absorbed and were used to represent the same two sounds: /k/ and /g/. Although it is also suspected that for a short time, C was used to represent the /g/ sound while newly acquired K was used to represent the /k/ sound.

    However, they developed certain differences in usage. Q began to be used only before rounded vowels (O and U - U in turn was also written as V, since U's/W's in original latin were pronounced in a semi-consonant manner, halfway between modern U and V), K before the A vowel, and C before everything else.

    • Thus 'Horse' - pronounced 'ekwus', classical Equus, would be EQVVS in Early Latin and gave rise to the accepted modern transliteration of 'Equus', although 'Ecuus' or 'Ekuus' would also have been perfectly correct. It survives into modern english in the way most words that have Q's are usually followed by U, e.g. 'Question', 'Quote', 'Quandary', 'Equality'
    • 'Pebble', pronounced 'kalkulus', classical Calculus, would have been spelled KALQVLVS
    • 'Body', pronounced 'korpus', classical Corpus would have been spelled QORPVS
    • 'Knowledge/Wisdom', pronounced 'gnosis', a borrowed Greek word, would be spelled CNOSIS
    • 'City/State', pronounced (originally) 'keewitas', classical Civitas would have been spelled CIVITAS
    • 'Gaius' a given name, pronounced 'gaius', classical Gaius would be spelled KAIVS

    Later on, someone decided to invent the letter G, basically just a variant of C with a bar to distinguish between the /g/ and /k/ sound, not because it was needed but simply because the earlier removal of the letter 'Z' (the seventh letter in the Roman alphabet) created a space that disrupted the order of the alphabet (in other words, Romans were literally confused about their ABC's when Z was dropped, LOL. So they needed something to replace it so they could still sing their ABC's. I imagine the Germans feel the same with the recent decision to remove the sharp s 'ß' and replacing it with 'ss').

    And even later, there began a shift of using the 'native' (etruscan) C rather than the 'foreign' (greek) K and Q, which survives into modern English. It's why C is more often used for the /k/ sound rather than K and Q. Same thing with the native F rather than the foreign Φ. etc. Which is why 'Gaius' began to appear as being spelled as CAIVS rather than the earlier KAIVS.

    And much later, in the middle ages, Latin (or more accurately, Vulgar Latin) was spoken with the 'french' (continental Celts/Gauls/Iberian/part of Italy after the 'barbarian' invasions) influence (and gave rise to the romance languages). They palatized the Latin /t/, /g/, and /k/ sounds. Original Latin G began to be pronounced as /dzh/, C as /tsh/ or /ts/ or /tzh/, etc.

    Which is why in Modern 'classical' Latin, we pronounce things like Civitas as 'Seevitas' rather than the correct original 'Keewitas'. And Genius as 'Dzhenius' rather than the correct original 'Genius'. This further evolved into a simple 's' sound rather than the original 'tsh' sound (written in modern french as the C-cedilla, Ç, etc).

    Even the introduced C (by the Romans) into the Insular Celtic (the Scots, Welsh, Irish, etc.) alphabet originally only had the /k/ sound but underwent changes in spelling and pronunciation after the Norman conquest of the British islands. Adopting a /tsh/, /s/, or /ch/ sound. An example is the difference between the Old English Scip and Modern English 'Ship', originally pronounced 'Skip' (the pronunciation of which still survives in Modern English 'Skipper').

    In short: English has 3 letters for the /k/ sound because they are relics of the evolution of languages. Much like how our vestigial parts are relics of biological evolution.

    /end walloftext
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    Jul 07, 2009 12:08 PM GMT
    Sigh. You try and introduce people to high culture and they just don´t appreciate it.

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    Jul 07, 2009 1:01 PM GMT
    Caslon ,

    To sum it up, when languages change the phonetics of a word/sound/phoneme dont always change at the same rate as the spelling of a letter/word.





    Also,

    I love the cookie monster! My nephew would have me go HOURS doing cookie monster imitations. LOLOL. Reminds me of those fun times with him!!!
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    Jul 07, 2009 2:34 PM GMT
    Sedative said
    Caslon11000 saidSpeaking of C, why does the English alphabet have 3 letters (C, K, and Q) that have a hard "K" sound?


    I thought you liked etymology. icon_surprised.gif

    I do, which is why I asked the question. I thought it would be fun. I had read about this years ago in a book now called "Letter Perfect."

    To put your answer more succinctly, we have 3 letters that have the hard "K" sound because the Romans received their alphabet from the Greeks via the Erustcans. The Erustcans had several "K" sounds in their language, so they adapted several greek letters to represent them. They had no "G" sound, so the third letter, gamma, was co-opted to represent one of their "K" sounds. The Romans did have a "G" sound, so they had to reinvent a symbol for it, and took the "C" and gave it a distinguishing mark.

    I thought you would have found that fun.
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    Jul 07, 2009 5:24 PM GMT
    Sedative saidYadda yadda yadda! Songs don't give me cookies!

    And I liked the original better. icon_evil.gif



    Caslon11000 saidSpeaking of C, why does the English alphabet have 3 letters (C, K, and Q) that have a hard "K" sound?


    I thought you liked etymology. icon_surprised.gif

    Etruscan had no voiced plosive consonants (b, d, g; which has the unvoiced counterparts p, t, and k/c) and thus adopted the greek letter for G (gamma) to represent the /k/ sound. This carried over to Early Latin which though having a /g/ sound also used a derivative of the etruscan alphabet (and thus had no letter for G). So they used the same letters (a gamma derivative which look like the modern C) for the /k/ sound and the /g/ sound. Furthermore, the Greek alphabet was reintroduced to the Romans and added two new letters for the same sounds: Q (Qoppa) and K (Kappa). These were also absorbed and were used to represent the same two sounds: /k/ and /g/. Although it is also suspected that for a short time, C was used to represent the /g/ sound while newly acquired K was used to represent the /k/ sound.

    However, they developed certain differences in usage. Q began to be used only before rounded vowels (O and U - U in turn was also written as V, since U's/W's in original latin were pronounced in a semi-consonant manner, halfway between modern U and V), K before the A vowel, and C before everything else.

    • Thus 'Horse' - pronounced 'ekwus', classical Equus, would be EQVVS in Early Latin and gave rise to the accepted modern transliteration of 'Equus', although 'Ecuus' or 'Ekuus' would also have been perfectly correct. It survives into modern english in the way most words that have Q's are usually followed by U, e.g. 'Question', 'Quote', 'Quandary', 'Equality'
    • 'Pebble', pronounced 'kalkulus', classical Calculus, would have been spelled KALQVLVS
    • 'Body', pronounced 'korpus', classical Corpus would have been spelled QORPVS
    • 'Knowledge/Wisdom', pronounced 'gnosis', a borrowed Greek word, would be spelled CNOSIS
    • 'City/State', pronounced (originally) 'keewitas', classical Civitas would have been spelled CIVITAS
    • 'Gaius' a given name, pronounced 'gaius', classical Gaius would be spelled KAIVS

    Later on, someone decided to invent the letter G, basically just a variant of C with a bar to distinguish between the /g/ and /k/ sound, not because it was needed but simply because the earlier removal of the letter 'Z' (the seventh letter in the Roman alphabet) created a space that disrupted the order of the alphabet (in other words, Romans were literally confused about their ABC's when Z was dropped, LOL. So they needed something to replace it so they could still sing their ABC's. I imagine the Germans feel the same with the recent decision to remove the sharp s 'ß' and replacing it with 'ss').

    And even later, there began a shift of using the 'native' (etruscan) C rather than the 'foreign' (greek) K and Q, which survives into modern English. It's why C is more often used for the /k/ sound rather than K and Q. Same thing with the native F rather than the foreign Φ. etc. Which is why 'Gaius' began to appear as being spelled as CAIVS rather than the earlier KAIVS.

    And much later, in the middle ages, Latin (or more accurately, Vulgar Latin) was spoken with the 'french' (continental Celts/Gauls/Iberian/part of Italy after the 'barbarian' invasions) influence (and gave rise to the romance languages). They palatized the Latin /t/, /g/, and /k/ sounds. Original Latin G began to be pronounced as /dzh/, C as /tsh/ or /ts/ or /tzh/, etc.

    Which is why in Modern 'classical' Latin, we pronounce things like Civitas as 'Seevitas' rather than the correct original 'Keewitas'. And Genius as 'Dzhenius' rather than the correct original 'Genius'. This further evolved into a simple 's' sound rather than the original 'tsh' sound (written in modern french as the C-cedilla, Ç, etc).

    Even the introduced C (by the Romans) into the Insular Celtic (the Scots, Welsh, Irish, etc.) alphabet originally only had the /k/ sound but underwent changes in spelling and pronunciation after the Norman conquest of the British islands. Adopting a /tsh/, /s/, or /ch/ sound. An example is the difference between the Old English Scip and Modern English 'Ship', originally pronounced 'Skip' (the pronunciation of which still survives in Modern English 'Skipper').

    In short: English has 3 letters for the /k/ sound because they are relics of the evolution of languages. Much like how our vestigial parts are relics of biological evolution.

    /end walloftext


    cute, funny and now smart. someone better grab this one before its too lateicon_biggrin.gif
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    Jul 07, 2009 5:56 PM GMT
    ScottPensacola saidcute, funny and now smart. someone better grab this one before its too lateicon_biggrin.gif


    Queue Sedative blushing and then hiding under the sofa.
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    Jul 08, 2009 5:59 AM GMT
    You all have it wrong! A Sedative is a drug!

    Cookies + Drugs = POT COOKIE MONSTER

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    Jul 08, 2009 6:25 AM GMT
    muchmorethanmuscle saidC is for....

    6a00c2252d36648e1d00d414436f006a47-500pi

    ROTFLMAO icon_biggrin.gif
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    Jul 08, 2009 6:31 AM GMT