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So... My doctor has recently informed me that I have low testosterone. Mine is 149, and he tells me that a normal level is 240.

I don't appear to have obvious symptoms (no ED or depression, for example) but my bone density test shows thinning of some bones, which my on-line research indicates could be caused by low T.

As a bit of related info, I have been on Propecia for several years. I understand that Propecia can actually raise testosterone levels (since it prevents testosterone from converting to DHT), which makes me wonder how much lower my T would be if I weren't on Propecia!

So what I'm wondering is... given that I'm going to have to address the low T anyway, what mechanism has the best results? I.e., injection/pill/patch/gel/etc. I figure I should consider the muscle-building and anti-aging factors if I have to supplement my testosterone anyway.

What about other factors, such as HGH? Would it be reasonable to explore those since I have to take testosterone anyway?

Basically, I'm looking to make lemonade out of the lemons I've been given. I want to get the most benefit out of something I'm going to have to do.

Thanks!

I have had great luck with the gel (Androgel). My free testosterone levels had gotten below 100, and obviously as a 23 year old that was cause for concern. I was started on the lowest dose (4 pumps), but after getting rechecked, I moved up to the max dose of 8 pumps. Having been on it for 3 years, my levels have finally come up, but it is definitely a long term treatment for most people. There are definite advantages to being on it, most notably the ability to gain muscle and sex drive.

Something else you might consider having tested is your estrogen levels. Propecia can sometimes cause testosterone to be converted to estrogen and adding a testosterone supplement would likely increase your estrogen levels as well. Just something you might want to mention to your doctor,

A serum testosterone of 149 is low. Some physicians use 300 as the bottom limit. Others may use even a higher bottom number.

Propecia will raise testosterone levels. Propecia has a recently discovered good side effect. It helps prevent prostate cancer.

Testosterone levels are highest in the AM. The test should be done between 8 and 9 AM if possible.

A low testosterone level may be due to andropause ( normal aging) but other medical problems need to be ruled out.
A link to an article on WebMD about testosterone deficiency and the causes. The Article is still relevant even if one does not have ED.
http://www.webmd.com/erectile-dysfunction/testosterone-replacement-therapy

The most common method used to replace testosterone is transdermal.

The need for replacement of growth hormone in the aging adult is controversial. Growth hormone needs to be given by injection and is very expensive.

Regular application of GH may show several negative side-effects such as joint swelling, joint pain, carpal tunnel syndrome, and an increased risk of diabetes.1

1 Liu H, Bravata DM, Olkin I, Nayak S, Roberts B, Garber AM, Hoffman AR (January 2007). "Systematic review: the safety and efficacy of growth hormone in the healthy elderly". Ann. Intern. Med. 146 (2): 104–15. PMID 17227934

fwguy85 saidI have had great luck with the gel (Androgel). ... Having been on it for 3 years, my levels have finally come up, but it is definitely a long term treatment for most people.

Thanks for sharing your experiences fwguy85! Just to clarify... are you saying that your levels have finally come up even when you're not using Androgel?

kneedragen (fun handle!), thanks for that info, though it's pretty much what I've seen online. Since I've been on Propecia for years, I can't help but wonder how much lower my testosterone would be if I hadn't been using it!

Anyone else have personal experience with low testosterone treatments and how to turn taking them to your advantage?

Last year I was diagnosed with low testosterone, when my bone density was observed to be decreasing. My weight gain, fatigue, and other secondary symptoms are also consistent with this diagnosis.

I was given Testim gel to apply, and it appeared to raise my levels slightly. But the hassle of applying it topically (it really smells awful, like cheap cologne), not to mention the ridiculous cost, made me stop.

I just do without at present, until someone comes along with a better alternative.

FitExecutive said
Thanks for sharing your experiences fwguy85! Just to clarify... are you saying that your levels have finally come up even when you're not using Androgel?

I meant they have finally stayed in a healthy range now that I have been on it for 3 years. For some guys, you have to stay on it indefinitely, depending on its cause.

Using Androgel .very happy with results )))

I was finally diagnosed with low T a year ago. For about 2 years I really didn’t know what was going on I gained weight, loss muscle mass and was suffering from depression. Read an article and got my levels checked. The Dr decided they were low enough at 300 for treatment. I was 31 at the time and he wanted to avoid causing my body from stopping producing testosterone so we avoided androgels and did the Clomid test. 25mg of Clomid, Clomiphene Citrate per day and my levels jumped I’m now at about 875. It’ll be a permanent treatment for me, which isn’t all bad it’s like being perpetually in puberty. Well I do need to work on the bouts of anger.

Just following up on this thread...

FYI, I've started taking AndroGel. I've only been on it for 3 days at the 4-pump (5 gram) dosage. There's been no especially noticable effect yet, though my dick has 'twitched' suddenly and for no apparent reason a couple of times.

I may treat myself as a case study and update this thread if/when things change. Maybe that will be useful to someone else researching this topic in the future.

What about those pills like Amidren and other T raising supplements that bodybuilders use?
I would think diet could also help raise your T up, like eating red meat, eggs, broccoli and cauliflower, stuff like that.

And here I thought I was this crazy rare case having low testosterone at 29! I thought I was depressed. No sexual drive, would practically fall asleep after dinner... I had all the usual symptoms.

When I was first tested, I was at 128. I'm now at a happy 630.

I've been on Androgel now for almost 90 days and it's amazing. It doesn't smell, and is the most natural way of taking testosterone, in that it mimics what your body would be doing anyway (as opposed to shots which spike your T levels or pills which are basically ineffective). Friends ask what it's "like," and I reply, "It feels like how I'm supposed to be feeling."

Sexual drive is back in full force, mentally I'm back in the game, and the added musculature is a nice bonus. Speaking of, I should really put some new pics up...

Wow... i was going to post a question about this. I'm going to have to do some research, but thanks to the guys who mentioned what meds they are taking.

I understand that ZMA may be useful. Anyone try this?

I see that you're sick with a chronic illness (HIV). A wide number of folks sick with HIV have seen extremely positive benefits by bringing their test levels up to 1000. Your doctor's limits seem low.

Androgel is so weak as to really be effective. Androgel is also in patent and runs about $300.00 a month, and is typically 1%. For about $45 to $50 a month you can get 10% testosterone in EMU from a compounding pharmacist. Typical levels prescribed are from 700mg to 1400mg, topical, per week. I know guys with both. My doctor tells me the absorption is roughly 50%, so 1400mg topical, according to him is around 700mg per week of testosterone.

It's difficult to get your levels high enough to do much good with Androgel. Go the compounded route. You should notice differences in as little as a few days, with marked improvements in your health over a period of months.

I know doctors that will treat at 600 and below. Although some folks can function with levels as low at 250, you'll feel a pile better, especially since you're sick, with level at 1000 or higher.

My test was at 1200 when I was 32. It's since dropped to the point I have a prescription for HRT. I'm 49, now, and have a psa of 0.4.

For folks sick with HIV, HRT and other AAS can be a god send.

Just FYI, most test boosters are BUNK (short of the hormones HCG and clomid). Take the natural thing, that your own body makes: testosterone.

What are the side affects of a testosterone regimen? Are they smiliar to steroids in this way?

fwguy85 saidI have had great luck with the gel (Androgel). My free testosterone levels had gotten below 100, and obviously as a 23 year old that was cause for concern. I was started on the lowest dose (4 pumps), but after getting rechecked, I moved up to the max dose of 8 pumps. Having been on it for 3 years, my levels have finally come up, but it is definitely a long term treatment for most people. There are definite advantages to being on it, most notably the ability to gain muscle and sex drive.

Something else you might consider having tested is your estrogen levels. Propecia can sometimes cause testosterone to be converted to estrogen and adding a testosterone supplement would likely increase your estrogen levels as well. Just something you might want to mention to your doctor,

Now I am making a doctor's appointment to look into this

jarhead5536 saidWhat are the side affects of a testosterone regimen? Are they smiliar to steroids in this way?

Steroids are all hormones that are soluble in lipids. E.g., estrogen, testosterone, cortisone, and a host of others. Some steroids are neutral, with regard to catabolic / anabolic state, some are catabolic (they reduce muscle, and often inflammation, like cortisone), and some are anabolic, like testosterone. All anabolic steroids (muscle promoting / preserving / helping protein synthesis) are close derivatives to testosterone. Some AAS are more masculinizing / androgenic than others. AAS are rated on anabolic / androgenic ratios. Testosterone is 1:1.

Testosterone is an anabolic steroid that's 100% natural and produced by your body. Nothing is more natural than testosterone as it's what makes you a man, with its androgenic qualities.

Injectable anabolic steroids (say testosterone) have very few side affects, which are manageable and transient, unless you were to get into extreme doses (over 5000mg weekly, and most folks wouldn't ever, even in extreme cases, use over about 2000mg weekly and clinical settings would likely be 1400mg weekly, or less). Oral anabolic steroids often have a carbon chain (C17) added to allow them to pass through your GI system, and have minimal impact on your liver. Not as bad as NSAIDS, but, they do have some impact. Injectables don't affect your liver in a negative way.

It's important to make the distinction. Estrogen is a non-androgenic steriod. So is cortisone. Cortisone reduces inflammation but destroys connective tissue. It's highly catabolic.

Testosterone, in that it's 100% natural, promotes a sense of well being, libidio, prevents diseases of aging, protects your heart, and preserves your lean muscle mass, and your brain. There has been no definitive research, EVER, to present otherwise. In fact, studies have shown just the opposite: that even the heaviest AAS users have lower mortality than the general public. (UNT 1999). Despite the science to the contrary about AAS, they were put on Schedule III in 1991.

In fact, endocrinologists, have lobbied Congress to de-list testosterone as a controlled substance, for anti-aging, unsuccessfully.

In 1991, despite unanimous advice from every agency at the table not to list AAS on Schedule III, Congress ignored the advice and passed the Omnibus Bill of 1991. Prior to 1988, AAS were not regulated.

From a purely technical perspective, testosterone is THE male sex hormone, that just happens to be a steroid, and an anabolic / androgenic on, at that. 100% natural.

[quote][cite]chuckystud said[/cite]I see that you're sick with a chronic illness (HIV). A wide number of folks sick with HIV have seen extremely positive benefits by bringing their test levels up to 1000. Your doctor's limits seem low.

. For about $45 to $50 a month you can get 10% testosterone in EMU from a compounding pharmacist. Typical levels prescribed are from 700mg to 1400mg, topical, per week. I know guys with both. My doctor tells me the absorption is roughly 50%, so 1400mg topical, according to him is around 700mg per week of testosterone.

Sorry, could you tell me what EMU is? Is that a prescription?

Sure. I've taken time to create this link for you so that you can research EMU lotion further.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=EMU+LOTION

The lotion and the testosterone must be compounded by a compounding pharmacist, as I mentioned above. Of course, testosterone, and the compounding, require a registered pharmacist and prescription.

Update on the "me using AndroGel" case study...

I've been using it for just over two weeks; this morning I finished the first of the small pump bottles and started a second one.

I've been using it *almost* as directed -- there have been a few times when I took a second shower later in the day and applied an extra 2 pumps (half-dose) after the second shower. The directions say to wait 5-6 hours before showering to get the full effect, and I decided I would rather get a slightly higher dose on some days than get too little. The extra 2 pumps of gel are still well within the acceptable use of the product, per the package directions... the only thing I'm not sure about is the effect of applying the gel twice in one day rather than once per day.

I can now tell that it's having a subtle, but definite effect. Workouts and hard physical labor don't exhaust me the way they used to, and I find that I recover more quickly too. I still feel "worked out", but I actually *want* to get back in there next time, as opposed to having to force myself to get in there.

The only side effect so far: I actually sweat when I work out now. My whole life, I've only had light perspiration, even when doing hard physical labor (other people have commented on it several times over the years). Now when I work out, I'm sweating to the point that my hair is wet and sweat is dripping off of me.

Another update... I've been using AndroGel for one month now.

I'm still using it as described in my previous post -- i.e., "almost" as directed. The caveat is that I'm working out a lot more now, which means more afternoon showers, which means that I'm applying that extra half-dose of AndroGel more often than not.

My experience still confirms what I said in my last post: I'm a lot more movtivated to work out, and work out harder. My recovery from a workout is significantly faster than it was before I started HRT.

I realize that AndroGel is considered to be weak in terms of its body-building benefits, but I'm pleased at the early results I'm obtaining simply as a result of being more able to work out effectively.

I certainly wouldn't rule out switching to injections or a different (possibly stronger) product at some point, but I can't complain about the initial benefits. So far, I'm very pleased.

FitExecutive saidJust following up on this thread...

FYI, I've started taking AndroGel. I've only been on it for 3 days at the 4-pump (5 gram) dosage. There's been no especially noticable effect yet, though my dick has 'twitched' suddenly and for no apparent reason a couple of times.

I may treat myself as a case study and update this thread if/when things change. Maybe that will be useful to someone else researching this topic in the future.

I've been on this same treatment for a few months now and I haven't really 'felt' a difference. I have scheduled an appt with my doc to get my levels tested again and see if it has made a difference or get on higher dose lvl. But good luck to any others on the same stuff. Diff people have diff needs and all.

I have a routine doctor's visit this Monday, 8-24, at which blood work done this week will include testosterone levels. They were previously low, prompting the doctor to prescribe Testim topical gel.

Aside from being ridiculously expensive, I hated the lingering smell, and the inconvenient protocol. I had to wait an hour after taking a shower to apply it to my shoulders, or alternately I couldn't take a shower for 2 hours afterwards. And I couldn't dress for 30 minutes after application. That's too restrictive for my daily routine. And did I mention the strong smell? People even commented on it, thinking I was using some kind of cologne, which I never do.

My testosterone increased slightly, but I felt no different. Other problems included weight gain and bone density loss, which the doctor also ascribed to my hormone levels being low. If they are low again I will ask for alternative treatments, because this gel crap is unacceptable.

@Red_Vespa: FWIW, AndroGel is odorless after the first few seconds (while the alcohol is evaporating and the gel is drying on your skin). I put it on immediately after showering, then brush my teeth, then dress, and it's fully dry by the time I start dressing.

You do have to wait 5-6 hours after applying it before you shower again to get a full dose, but that isn't normally an issue since I'm at work for longer than that.

Get compounded testosterone in EMU lotion. It runs about 30 to 40 dollars per month.

so does this increase the amount delivered to the body? Are they compounding androgel and the CMU lotion?

I've been on HRT for a couple of years now due to low bone density (also total blood testosterone level at lower end of normal; free testosterone low). Started out with Androgel, but blood levels didn't change much after 3 months, so we changed to office injections (which, for me, are not only cheaper and much more effective, but also more convenient).

I can't honestly say that I've seen any obvious benefits apart from the observation other than the decrease in my bone density seems to be halted.

FitExecutive saidSo... My doctor has recently informed me that I have low testosterone. Mine is 149, and he tells me that a normal level is 240.

I don't appear to have obvious symptoms (no ED or depression, for example) but my bone density test shows thinning of some bones, which my on-line research indicates could be caused by low T.

As a bit of related info, I have been on Propecia for several years. I understand that Propecia can actually raise testosterone levels (since it prevents testosterone from converting to DHT), which makes me wonder how much lower my T would be if I weren't on Propecia!

So what I'm wondering is... given that I'm going to have to address the low T anyway, what mechanism has the best results? I.e., injection/pill/patch/gel/etc. I figure I should consider the muscle-building and anti-aging factors if I have to supplement my testosterone anyway.

What about other factors, such as HGH? Would it be reasonable to explore those since I have to take testosterone anyway?

Basically, I'm looking to make lemonade out of the lemons I've been given. I want to get the most benefit out of something I'm going to have to do.

Thanks!

I was diagnosed with Andropause before I turned 40. I had a 145 serum T. The scale my doc used ran from 240 to 1000 so obviously I was low. I had symptoms, lack of focus, tired, no sex drive etc. I was put on the patch at first which I hated. It left obvious welts on my skin. So I went to Androgel and it worked great. My doc monitored me closely because of the risk of prostate issues. My doc refused to give me the biweekly shots she thought they posed to high a risk to prostate cancer.

I was also on Propecia and read just the opposite. But I wouldnt even begin to argue the point because I dont have the background. But one of the side effects of using was erectile dysfuntion, at least in a very small amount of men. I would suggest going to a Propecia haters website and see what they all had for side effects. The one benefit I got from propecia was that it lowered my PSA levels. Propecia is 1 mg of the 5 mg drug finesteride used to treat prostate issues.

I had to be taken off of the HRT for awhile because my T shot up to 1500 and I developed Polysithemiavera (sp?), I had too many red blood cells and my blood was too thick. So I went off for three months and my blood issues went away.

I wish you a lot of luck.

I forgot about this thread, didn't mention the results of my latest doctor's visit. My testosterone levels are back up, into the low-normal range, even though I've been off Testim gel for months. The doctor was a bit surprised, but I assured her I'm not doing anything different. (Well, I did jokingly tell her I was watching more gay video porn. She laughed, most of her practice being gay men.)

She also mentioned 2 kinds of testosterone in my blood, one called "free" I think, and I forget the other name. Apparently only one of them actually does a man any good, particularly regarding the problems I'd been having with weight gain and bone loss. So for now I don't seem to need any treatment.

I used propecia in my early thirties and it seem to "kill" my sex drive and it didn't help with my workouts either. In later years I started using Avodart which is significantly stronger than propecia, and I had good results with my hairline and my sex drive kicked back in. I haven't used anything for my hair in five years because of the cost and it just seemed like a losing battle(for me anyway). Luckily I don't have a misshaped head, lol.

I started with the shots. At first I noticed that a lot of built up fliud appeared. Then the doctor switched me to the gel. In a little time, my body became lean and ripped. So I am grateful for that. But exercise along with the gel worked marvels for me apart from the adjustment period. It was like, "What is going on here?"

But you have to apply the same amount everyday and at the same time. It shoud remain on your body for 6 hours. I have to schedule my swimming around my dosing although this is usually not a problem.

It makes me feel better and feel more human.

crunchit said...Then the doctor switched me to the gel. In a little time, my body became lean and ripped. So I am grateful for that...

Which gel, AndroGel? FitExecutive mentioned it, and the 6-hour shower ban. I didn't like Testim gel, for the smell mostly, but also the inconveniences about showering and not getting dressed right away. My doctor would start me on something again if I asked, just not as critical now with my latest blood results.

Yes - androgel.

OK...I haven't seen anyone discuss Testopel pellets.

http://www.testopel.com/

About a year ago I went to a doctor because of low energy, low sex drive, depression, lack of motivation, etc... She did a full blood workup and found that my T level was very low (like 220 I think?). We decided that these pellets would be the best thing for me. I had 6 pellets inserted - yes, in one of my butt cheeks - and they're supposed to last for 4-6 months.

I'm not sure if it was the Dr. not knowing what she was doing, since this is fairly new for U.S. doctors, or what, but my ass was really bruised for about a month following the procedure. I mean so bruised that I would have been too embarrassed to have sex with someone (and now I actually WANTED to...LOL).

After about 4 months the effect wore off and when I asked about having it done again, I found out that it was difficult for my doctor to get the pellets, and that the BS they had to deal with for insurance was a factor, blah, blah, blah - basically I wasn't able to get a second round of treatment.

So I went to another doctor...He tested my T level (this is a few months after I quit the Testopel treatment) and it was in the above-average level...I don't know how to explain that...supposedly once you start a T replacement therapy your body stops making T on its own...I was told that in some cases the treatment can flip your body's T switch back "on" and you can start making higher levels of T...

Anyway, I think I'd stay away from the pellets unless your doctor has a lot of experience with using them.

Misread the title of this thread, thought it said "Anal experience with low testosterone". Quelle surprise!

I’m a 48 year old male who has never had any type of sexual problem. Several months ago I began to notice that my erections weren’t as frequent as they had been and when I did get them they weren’t as firm. I also felt tired even with adequate sleep. I suspected low testosterone from what I read on the internet but wondered how that could all of the sudden be a problem, especially since I work out with weights three days a week and do cardio three days a week. When I was tested it was 300 which is border line low. My PCP referred me to an Endocrinologist and he put me on Androgel. At first he put me on two pumps a day which is a half dose. That didn’t do anything and only raised my levels slightly. He then moved me up to a regular dose of four pumps a day and that raised my levels to about 500. That still didn’t do much. For the past month he has had me on six pumps a day and I’m horny a lot with good firm errections. He wants to get my level up to 700 and I’m sure when I have my next blood work I’ll be close to that. I am 6’2” and weigh 205 lbs. so maybe I need more than the regular dose due to my size.

I will say that it takes at least three months of use before you will feel anything. In my case it took four months. Gel is probably your best bet because it is convenient and consistent. Shots from what I’m told or ok but one has to go once a week or every other week and at the beginning of receiving the shot you really feel the effects however, as time goes on before your next injection the effects wear off. From all of the research I’ve done there is no connection with prostate cancer and testosterone replacement. You are only replacing your levels to where they should normally be not increasing them to an unnaturally high level. You probably will notice a little muscle mass but don’t expect to look like the hulk. However, going through life without adequate testosterone can be miserable. As you mentioned it can affect your bone density and I don’t even want to think of life without sex! My doctor told me that low testosterone is becoming almost epidemic even in younger guys. Experts believe it could be chemicals in plastics causing it, hormones in meats or other possibilities. Good luck and keep us posted.

What is with the New York Asian Escort? :S

Someone got a virus me thinks??

Pinny saidMisread the title of this thread, thought it said "Anal experience with low testosterone". Quelle surprise!

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're a nut!

I figured I was overdue to update my results in this thread:

My response to the AndroGel has been good, based on the numbers. My T level was at 149 when it was prescribed, and was up to about 750 when last measured... well within the 'normal' range.

I still find it easy to use, but I no longer get a rush of energy after applying it as I did for the first couple of months. As best I can tell, my body has acclimated to it, and most of the time I wouldn't even know I was using it.

Unfortunately, that also means that my elevated drive to work out has gone back to normal.


Minor drawbacks I've experienced:

- With winter approaching, the air is a lot drier in my house, and I'm getting patches of dry skin as I always do. AndroGel causes a brief, but intense, burning sensation when applied to dry skin.

- I've experienced some testicle shrinkage; not so much that I consider it a real problem, but enough that I notice it.

- A couple of times, I've experienced (what I consider to be) premature ejaculation. Again, it hasn't happened often enough that I consider it to be a serious problem, but I've noticed it.