After reading some posts I've found various views on religion here, and I was wondering what are the foundations for your belief, which does include a lack there of. Was it a strong up bringing? Going to Catholic schools? Or just feeling alienated from religion? Where do you stand?
Personally, I was raised Greek Orthodox. But after some reading and talking to friends I became a spiritualist drawing from Orthodoxy, Hinduism, and Buddhism. I personally don't believe in a single conscious divine being that created life, but a force or energy that connects all of us. The gods we worship and follow are just our own manifestations of that energy.
So, what do you believe. And why do you, or don't you, believe it?
Raised Roman Catholic in the US, went to private Catholic schools until I was 16. Attended a Jesuit prep school for boys, and couldn't stand it anymore. Rebelled, was placed in a secular private boys prep school, and deliberately flunked out of that. Finished my last 2 years in a public high school, much to my parent's chagrin.
I have no religious beliefs anymore, though oddly I do belong to an MCC. I see it as a social opportunity, not a religious one, and don't believe a single thing they say. Blasphemous, because I sometimes read the lesson from the pulpit, just for the personal pleasure of using my public speaking voice.
My mom is Muslim. My dad is Roman Catholic. I went to a private school and was raised as a Seventh Day Adventist.
Feeling guilty for not keeping the Sabbath Holy (i.e. watching tv on Friday nights and Saturday mornings and working on Saturdays), I declared myself as "Christian."
But now I'm a Quaker, and I love it. It's the perfect religion for me.
I was raised in a Roman Catholic family did all the rituals .... even did a stint as an altar boy and No I wasn't molested
But as I learned about the history of the Church and of all religion across the ages and watched the hatred and the violence that it not only condones but Perpetuates I have seen what a lie and evil there is in most organized religions
I no longer believe in God in any sense of the old meaning I believe we are here on this earth for a short time and it is "godly" or "god-like" for each of us to be kind and gentle to everyone who comes into our lives
GQjock saidI was raised in a Roman Catholic family did all the rituals .... even did a stint as an altar boy and No I wasn't molested
Nor was I, won't make a claim to a popular belief just because it's widespread. At the same time, I do think my Jesuit teachers were sexually repressed and fucked up big time. They beat us physically to an extent that today would land them in jail.
I was also an altar boy, still remember the Latin Mass we had to recite. Also meatless Fridays, and being told not to associate with Protestant kids our own age, which would condemn us to Hell. As for Jews, well, they didn't even exist. Hard to believe the Catholic Church actually used to tell kids these things.
I love science and look to it for ways to explain the world around me.
Science cannot explain everything right now though. Is this because:
1. Science will never be able to explain everything? Spirituality/religion can only explain the unknown.
or....
2. We don't have the technology to properly implement the use of Science to answer the unknown? Thus, SOMEDAY the answers of the unexplainable will be discovered; however, most likely not in my life time.
These two questions/thoughts fit in with agnosticism
I wasn't really raised in any religious tradition. As far as I remember, I never really had a belief in God. I view religion as created by mankind and as such can represent the best and worst of human nature. I find religon at its best when the focus is on helping the needy and personal growth; at its worst when it is judgemental and hateful. For the past 2.5yrs I've been going to an Unitarian Universalist church. I like the focus on personal values without as much concern if your value foundation is based on Humanism, Christianity, Buddhism, Paganism, etc. Also, like the fact that UU is gay accepting and a strong supporter of gay rights.
My parent are Palestinian and follow the Greek Orthodox faith. I don't really practice. I grew up going to Catholic Church, because Orthodox Church wasn't big in the United States. There was no Orthodox Church in Phoenix Arizona, when I was young. Now we have like hundreds of them.
My family kinda remind me of "My Big Fat Greek Wedding." I really have a big family.
I was raised a Roman Catholic and was very devout. In fact, I considered the priesthood! After coming out, I became an athiest for a few years before following a subconscious yearning for Judaism. I converted to Judaism a few years ago and I practice. I keep kosher to a certain extent and keep my head covered. I am considering being a rabbi. Crazy ride life is eh?
typical catholic family upbringing. dad cheated on mom with dudes the entire time and mom drank herself silly as a result.
this pretty much sums it up:
"The fact that a believer is happier than a sceptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality." - George Bernard Shaw
I am a "pure" atheist, having been raised in a household where religion was not discussed at all. My kids are technically Jewish, by matrilineal descent, but atheism goes back a few generations on Mom's side.
I am 55 and was raised and have practiced my Orthodox Christian Faith throughout my life. It has challanged me and helped me to be a better, more honest, less selfish and more loving person. I try to judge no one and see God in everyone. I believe that God draws people to Himself from all faiths and loves the least as well as the highest. Peace
Brought up going to church three times a week. Attended a christian school K-12. I stopped going to church when I moved out of the parents house. Over the years my faith kinda dissolved, along with a whole bunch of other baggage. I don't give it any thought anymore.
Brought myself up (religiously) as a wiccan, learning and practicing with friends and solitarily. It was my last year of high school I actually got saved and joined a local Baptist church. I love it and have been going for about 10 years, been in/out (sexuality) for about 14 years. I'm a pretty joyful person for all of it.
Raised: catholic Currently: not subscribing to any labels
I believe in the golden rule, in helping others, and doing what your heart tells you is right. I don't believe that people can understand everything that happens in life and I don't think you should try to.
i grew up to just believe whatever you want to believe.
growing up i would go with friends to various church functions, from all over the board.
i can proudly say that i think it's all bullshit and that there is no higher power.
the biology book i believe, i have always found religion total bs, but to each his own. if you choose to believe in a "higher power" so be it, just dont in any way try to force it on me, and dont try to get me to come along to drink the punch too.
i see organized religion as just an accepted cult amongst today's society.
and i dont think churches should have tax exemptions either.
My Dad is an atheist. My mom is agnostic. My Dad was raised Catholic (Irish) and endured a lot of pain for it. My mom attended an English Lutheran church. I attended the Catholic and Protestant churches when my respective grandmothers came to town until one day when I asked my dad, "do I have to go to church with grandma?" "No" he said. THAT was easy, I thought.
I was actually saved in a Baptist church at the persuasion of some friends when I was 10. The experience traumatized me as I felt they were trying to brainwash me and turn me against my dad. Now I go to the woods when I want to feel the need to be spiritual.
I have truth-based / science-based belief systems, Mr. Poster. I don't subscribe to religion, cults, superstitions, astrology, or anything else that one could call BULLSHIT.
I encourage you to research a concept in psychology called Conformance Theory. In a nutshell, it's science that says fully 1/3 of folks will believe any rubbish you put in front of them, 1/3 will go along with that rubbish, even though they know it's BULLSHIT, and only 1/3 will hold to the truth. It's been proven over and over in experiment after experiment.
The Air Force and Navy subject aviators and sailors to near-death experiences, every day in centrifuges. No, it's not "God", that causes the light, it's your visual center going to an "all on" mode, along with your brain stem in full "on mode" to protect your life. That's also been proven time, and time again. Want a near death experience? Want to see the light? Hypoxia does it every time!
It's pretty amazing, that even in 2009, folks don't think clearly, and believe something just because some nut says it's so. We don't do that in most parts of our lives (we're taught to be rational and skeptical), but, when it comes to false belief systems we accept about any idiotic idea (well, about 1/3 of us anyway).
It's proof positive that the human intellect still has a long way to go. Fully 1/3 of us are weak-minded, with 1/3 of us to cowardly to say anything, and then, there's the other 1/3 who think clearly.
Cults, religions, bad leaders, and the Religious Right prey upon the weak-minded (the first 1/3), and the conformant (the 2nd 1/3). That's how horrible things happen to decent people in the various cults / religions.
The various persecutions over the years of free thinkers with truth-based systems demonstrates that these false belief systems are truly evil and probably one of the most horrible things about civilization.
The ability of leaders to manipulate folks over these false belief systems, as demonstrated by the likes of The Holocaust, show how weak-minded, and conformant, man can be.
The human species has a long way yet to evolve.
Indoctrinations / brain washing of the various false belief systems often start at birth and continue through a life time. So many young minds are filled with hate, guilt, ignorance, and intolerance due to that brainwashing
It's a tragedy that responsible folks should say no to.
The one good thing I see about faith is that it gives folks a way to let go of reality. E.g. some folks would say a person was killed in a crash car because "it was what ${deity} wanted". Of course, a rational person would say, "The person should have been a defensive driver, and never allowed themselves to be hit."
Reality bites, sometimes, and folks with false belief systems often don't look reality in its eye.
If humans are to evolve as a species, we need to get beyond false belief systems, and all the hurt they place upon the species.
At the end of the day, my take is that if ${deity} exists, then, ${deity} is cool enough to be nice to me if I'm ignorant. Either way, I'm the better off.
I recently put my mom in the grave, a devout Christian, and prior Catholic, who served on the church board for 21 years. She never forced her faith on any of us kids, and used it for goodness, however, irrational us kids sometimes thought it was. It gave her comfort. My folks NEVER shoved religion down our throats. They let us look at it for what it is. Only one of the four kids is religious in our family. The rest are like me. Neat idea, but, false.
You wanna' believe? That's fine. Just keep it out of MY LIFE.
Religion is an ancient man-made tool that allows the few to dominate over the many. Who benefits from religion??? Religious officials! I won't be so presumptuous to say that there is no god, because I can't know that for sure but if there is then he/she/it doesn't want us to live our lives "praising his name". If he did, he would be here making us comply with his will. One thing I am certain of....The Bible is BS.
chuckystud saidI have truth-based / science-based belief systems, Mr. Poster. I don't subscribe to religion, cults, superstitions, astrology, or anything else that one could call BULLSHIT.
I encourage you to research a concept in psychology called Conformance Theory. In a nutshell, it's science that says fully 1/3 of folks will believe any rubbish you put in front of them, 1/3 will go along with that rubbish, even though they know it's BULLSHIT, and only 1/3 will hold to the truth. It's been proven over and over in experiment after experiment.
The Air Force and Navy subject aviators and sailors to near-death experiences, every day in centrifuges. No, it's not "God", that causes the light, it's your visual center going to an "all on" mode, along with your brain stem in full "on mode" to protect your life. That's also been proven time, and time again. Want a near death experience? Want to see the light? Hypoxia does it every time!
It's pretty amazing, that even in 2009, folks don't think clearly, and believe something just because some nut says it's so. We don't do that in most parts of our lives (we're taught to be rational and skeptical), but, when it comes to false belief systems we accept about any idiotic idea (well, about 1/3 of us anyway).
It's proof positive that the human intellect still has a long way to go. Fully 1/3 of us are weak-minded, with 1/3 of us to cowardly to say anything, and then, there's the other 1/3 who think clearly.
Cults, religions, bad leaders, and the Religious Right prey upon the weak-minded (the first 1/3), and the conformant (the 2nd 1/3). That's how horrible things happen to decent people in the various cults / religions.
The various persecutions over the years of free thinkers with truth-based systems demonstrates that these false belief systems are truly evil and probably one of the most horrible things about civilization.
The ability of leaders to manipulate folks over these false belief systems, as demonstrated by the likes of The Holocaust, show how weak-minded, and conformant, man can be.
The human species has a long way yet to evolve.
Indoctrinations / brain washing of the various false belief systems often start at birth and continue through a life time. So many young minds are filled with hate, guilt, ignorance, and intolerance due to that brainwashing
It's a tragedy that responsible folks should say no to.
The one good thing I see about faith is that it gives folks a way to let go of reality. E.g. some folks would say a person was killed in a crash car because "it was what ${deity} wanted". Of course, a rational person would say, "The person should have been a defensive driver, and never allowed themselves to be hit."
Reality bites, sometimes, and folks with false belief systems often don't look reality in its eye.
If humans are to evolve as a species, we need to get beyond false belief systems, and all the hurt they place upon the species.
At the end of the day, my take is that if ${deity} exists, then, ${deity} is cool enough to be nice to me if I'm ignorant. Either way, I'm the better off.
I recently put my mom in the grave, a devout Christian, and prior Catholic, who served on the church board for 21 years. She never forced her faith on any of us kids, and used it for goodness, however, irrational us kids sometimes thought it was. It gave her comfort. My folks NEVER shoved religion down our throats. They let us look at it for what it is. Only one of the four kids is religious in our family. The rest are like me. Neat idea, but, false.
You wanna' believe? That's fine. Just keep it out of MY LIFE.
I think you worship at the Church of Endless Prolixity.
jackofhearts46 said Personally, I was raised Greek Orthodox. But after some reading and talking to friends I became a spiritualist drawing from Orthodoxy, Hinduism, and Buddhism. I personally don't believe in a single conscious divine being that created life, but a force or energy that connects all of us. The gods we worship and follow are just our own manifestations of that energy.
So, what do you believe. And why do you, or don't you, believe it?
I believe as you do now.
I grew up Southern Baptist. I had always wanted to be saved. I went to the altar a few times and went through the ritual. I was deemed saved, but it never really felt real. Looking back on it, I did not think I deserved it. So I did not believe it was true salvation. So for me it was not real because I believed it wasn't.
I struggled with my sexuality for several more years and finally started seeing guys. I dated a guy for few months. I went home to see the family one weekend. By this time, my parents had changed denominations to the Assembly of God. I really felt led to go to the altar. I was moved to go to the altar and accepted salvation. It felt real and it was because it is what I believed.
I went back home and broke up with my bf. I became involved with the church and learned as much I could about homosexuality and why the church thought it was wrong. After about 8 months or so, I just could not continue with church. To me, being gay only felt wrong because people said it was wrong and would judge me because of it. I could not just ignore it.
I avoided church for years. I was angry and even grew to hate church somewhat. I could not bring myself to go to a church that would not accept me.
About 8 years went by.
I was going through some rough times last year. I was at home with my parents. I really connected with the sermon. I felt led to go to the altar to pray. I don't know how long I was there, but I could feel people touching me and silently praying. I could feel their energy all around me and flowing into me. It was so warm and healing. I was grateful.
I don't feel guilty about being homosexual anymore. Actually what I was praying for was things my bf and I were dealing with.
It was then that I realize, that being gay is okay. God is not judging me for it. The church did not know what I was praying about and yet I found healing and strength from it.
As I see it now, we are all a part of God. The spiritual experiences that people have is when they tap into the Universe(aka God), the source of all knowledge, love,,etc. To me, it also explains why people can speak in tongues or in other languages in church. I believe its God. God is all of us, not just the ones that are physically around us, but everyone who is alive now and those that have past on. We can tap into that energy and knowledge.
I believe that whatever religion you practice, you tap into the universe(aka God) We have the same God. We just have different labels and different religious practices of how we connect with God.
I am not trying to explain that my beliefs are right or wrong. They are mine and purely antidotal, which all religious experiences are, personalized to the person.
I just wanted to talking about my transformation, because it has been very enlightening and therapeutic for me.
I am still a work in progress. Atleast now I feel like I am making progress instead of spinning my tires in the fire/brimstone/damnation sermons of organized religion.
manofsteel18765 said I went back home and broke up with my bf. I became involved with the church and learned as much I could about homosexuality and why the church thought it was wrong. After about 8 months or so, I just could not continue with church. To me, being gay only felt wrong because people said it was wrong and would judge me because of it. I could not just ignore it.
My heart goes out to the boyfriend you dumped. Whatever became of him? This is a terrible story.
Understand, religion is nice to those who subscribe to the doctrine, but, chastises, and even lashes out, at those who don't.
It's the contract you sign. Behave and believe as instructed, and you'll be one with the false belief system, but, step out line, and you'll rot in The Lake of Fire, or, be shunned, or whatever the case.
Religion is about conformance, and manipulation, towards a particular doctrine with little, or no, basis in truth, and often to line the pockets of the top of the pyramid.
jackofhearts46 said Personally, I was raised Greek Orthodox. But after some reading and talking to friends I became a spiritualist drawing from Orthodoxy, Hinduism, and Buddhism. I personally don't believe in a single conscious divine being that created life, but a force or energy that connects all of us. The gods we worship and follow are just our own manifestations of that energy.
So, what do you believe. And why do you, or don't you, believe it?
I believe as you do now.
I grew up Southern Baptist. I had always wanted to be saved. I went to the altar a few times and went through the ritual. I was deemed saved, but it never really felt real. Looking back on it, I did not think I deserved it. So I did not believe it was true salvation. So for me it was not real because I believed it wasn't.
I struggled with my sexuality for several more years and finally started seeing guys. I dated a guy for few months. I went home to see the family one weekend. By this time, my parents had changed denominations to the Assembly of God. I really felt led to go to the altar. I was moved to go to the altar and accepted salvation. It felt real and it was because it is what I believed.
I went back home and broke up with my bf. I became involved with the church and learned as much I could about homosexuality and why the church thought it was wrong. After about 8 months or so, I just could not continue with church. To me, being gay only felt wrong because people said it was wrong and would judge me because of it. I could not just ignore it.
I avoided church for years. I was angry and even grew to hate church somewhat. I could not bring myself to go to a church that would not accept me.
About 8 years went by.
I was going through some rough times last year. I was at home with my parents. I really connected with the sermon. I felt led to go to the altar to pray. I don't know how long I was there, but I could feel people touching me and silently praying. I could feel their energy all around me and flowing into me. It was so warm and healing. I was grateful.
I don't feel guilty about being homosexual anymore. Actually what I was praying for was things my bf and I were dealing with.
It was then that I realize, that being gay is okay. God is not judging me for it. The church did not know what I was praying about and yet I found healing and strength from it.
As I see it now, we are all a part of God. The spiritual experiences that people have is when they tap into the Universe(aka God), the source of all knowledge, love,,etc. To me, it also explains why people can speak in tongues or in other languages in church. I believe its God. God is all of us, not just the ones that are physically around us, but everyone who is alive now and those that have past on. We can tap into that energy and knowledge.
I believe that whatever religion you practice, you tap into the universe(aka God) We have the same God. We just have different labels and different religious practices of how we connect with God.
I am not trying to explain that my beliefs are right or wrong. They are mine and purely antidotal, which all religious experiences are, personalized to the person.
I just wanted to talking about my transformation, because it has been very enlightening and therapeutic for me.
I am still a work in progress. Atleast now I feel like I am making progress instead of spinning my tires in the fire/brimstone/damnation sermons of organized religion.
Mum was or is Roman Catholic. I was raised Methodist by paternal grandparents whose son varied between Methodist to Mormon to agnostic but always with really poor judgement about the women he married.
Returned to Catholicism as a practice at university. I eventually became a lector (Minister of the Word, today). I always rehearsed the readings in advance, but one day while standing in front of a full house at mass and reading the Old Testament selection from the Vatican, I had an epiphany, a flash of light like Ole Paul did. I suddenly realised that I was really reading the early draft of the Da Vinci code novel. It was fiction and some of it was just incomprehensible strings of words that made no sense and were either badly translated or just random streams of consciousness by some ancient person who was high, sick, or drunk.
Today, I accept happily that life is a wonderful accident and all the things various people try to explain as the divine are simply things for which we have too little data to explain as of yet. I do not live in fear of dying and going to hell to be tortured or to heaven to be bored or even endless, mindles repetitions of life. I will die as all organisms eventually do and will decompose into various compounds and elements just like other organisms. My fossilised bones might become a museum display in some distant future. My expensive dental work will probably last longest.
manofsteel18765 said I went back home and broke up with my bf. I became involved with the church and learned as much I could about homosexuality and why the church thought it was wrong. After about 8 months or so, I just could not continue with church. To me, being gay only felt wrong because people said it was wrong and would judge me because of it. I could not just ignore it.
My heart goes out to the boyfriend you dumped. Whatever became of him? This is a terrible story.
Despite the circumstances of the breakup, I believe things worked out for the best. After I left the church, I found a wonderful guy and we spent 8 yrs together.
There's lot of atheists here extolling the virtues of rationality, and science as a rational belief system. Well, I know beliefs to not be rational at all. The certainty of a belief, the certainty beyond knowing, is based in an emotional understanding. Rational beliefs are sorta like logical emotions, they don't quite fit together epistemologically.
Daydreaming, for me, is lightness of emotional desires. There is a difference between daydreaming about the future and knowing for certain, believing, that you are held, supported, in that future.
BradySF saidDaydreaming, for me, is lightness of emotional desires. There is a difference between daydreaming about the future and knowing for certain, believing, that you are held, supported, in that future.
None of us knows anything about that, Brady. If we think we do, we are indulging in wish-fulfillment fantasies.
BradySF saidDaydreaming, for me, is lightness of emotional desires. There is a difference between daydreaming about the future and knowing for certain, believing, that you are held, supported, in that future.
None of us knows anything about that, Brady. If we think we do, we are indulging in wish-fulfillment fantasies.
Wish fulfillment is based on satisfying unconscious fears, that is, if we are using the classic psychoanalytic model and not the contemporary psychoanalytic model, which sees dreaming as not wish fulfillment but as a fertile intersubjective playground, where your dreams are all the more real in sharing them with me.
Going classic, which I think is where you are coming from, there is no wish-fulfillment in my beliefs. I have no unconscious fears about my place within the world, no doubts about my inherent interdependence, for I know them in my lived experience. That interdependence for me also gives me moments of certainty that all of us are doing the best we can, all the time, and that at any moment, we could all become more aware, more held, more supported in our lives.
wow, i'm surprised to see so many posts. but to those atheists and those who are rather critical of religion, whether it be a set organization like the Church or just a few beliefs and philosophies, you never elaborated why? I was always intrigued to now why people chose atheism over theism.
Science doesn't have all the answers, and it can contradict it self (laws of conservation of mass and energy for starter). I"m not saying that you must have a belief in something else beyond human rationale, but just wanting to know why you don't? and why are you so jaded?
jackofhearts46 saidwow, i'm surprised to see so many posts. but to those atheists and those who are rather critical of religion, whether it be a set organization like the Church or just a few beliefs and philosophies, you never elaborated why? I was always intrigued to now why people chose atheism over theism.
Science doesn't have all the answers, and it can contradict it self (laws of conservation of mass and energy for starter). I"m not saying that you must have a belief in something else beyond human rationale, but just wanting to know why you don't? and why are you so jaded?
It has nothing to do with being 'jaded'. What you're doing here is common to all religious people---you see everything through the prism of belief. So even atheism appears to you to be 'anti' belief.
But just as the opposite of love isn't hate (it's indifference), the opposite of religious belief isn't hatred of religion, it's the complete absence of it.
Imagine that someone from another planet dropped by for a moment and you had to explain Christianity to him. You'd say you believe in an invisible protector who's really three things but really just one but really three but really one, and one of those is his son, even though that's part of him too, and the son died and then flew into the sky three days later.
i didn't mean to come off as anti atheist. just trying to understand. and i completely agree with your statement, but that's what faith is about.
and of course atheism isn't anti religion or faith, because that is the belief that there is nothing to believe in. the nihilist version of god so to speak.
From what I gather, Jackofheart was curious about the formation of people's beliefs. That does also include the formation of disbelief. My angle on it is that both have a foundation in emotional understanding, and appealing to one as more rational, and therefore more knowledgeable, more real, is also more dismissive of other's beliefs than it is in recognizing the mutual grounding of that knowing. Atheism isn't anti-belief, it is a system of thought that is both grounded in beliefs and dismissive of beliefs. My own belief system, we can label it buddhist, is grounded in experiential awareness of my own belief system with a deep regard for other's belief systems.
Extending your argument Jprichva, how do you explain to those aliens that dropped down what love is and knowing that you feel loved? Rational arguments, though solid and the foundation of so much in this world, do not always lead us in describing our beliefs.
jackofhearts46 saidi didn't mean to come off as anti atheist. just trying to understand. and i completely agree with your statement, but that's what faith is about.
and of course atheism isn't anti religion or faith, because that is the belief that there is nothing to believe in. the nihilist version of god so to speak.
I'd also add that atheists simply believe there is not yet evidence for a belief in a god--they do not necessarily say there is absolutely no god. They base their views on evidence--there is not yet evidence for a god. Athiests need evidence--religious people don't... they have faith. Faith alone is not enough for atheists.
Also, how do the laws of conservation of energy and mass contridict each other? Remember, those laws are meant to discribe phenomena in a CLOSED SYSTEM.
jackofhearts46 saidAfter reading some posts I've found various views on religion here, and I was wondering what are the foundations for your belief, which does include a lack there of. Was it a strong up bringing? Going to Catholic schools? Or just feeling alienated from religion? Where do you stand?
Personally, I was raised Greek Orthodox. But after some reading and talking to friends I became a spiritualist drawing from Orthodoxy, Hinduism, and Buddhism. I personally don't believe in a single conscious divine being that created life, but a force or energy that connects all of us. The gods we worship and follow are just our own manifestations of that energy.
So, what do you believe. And why do you, or don't you, believe it?
Nice... your views and mine run close although arrived at from a different perspective.
cjcartist1984 said I'd also add that atheists simply believe there is not yet evidence for a belief in a god--they do not necessarily say there is absolutely no god. They base their views on evidence--there is not yet evidence for a god. Athiests need evidence--religious people don't... they have faith. Faith alone is not enough for atheists.
Um, still not getting it. Atheists aren't waiting around for evidence. For the true atheist, the whole subject simply doesn't have any meaning. I find even having this discussion odd. Thoughts of a spiritual nature make up exactly no percentage of my time, ever. Except when I'm explaining this to some of you, and apparently I'm not doing it well, because you keep defining it in terms of belief: whether rejecting belief, waiting around of evidence before committing to it, or what have you. I guess this is just too foreign a notion for someone marinated in faith. Atheism is not a faith, an anti-faith, a lack of faith, or anger at faith. The entire notion of faith is completely outside the scope of our consciousness. It is literally without meaning or interest.
And don't try to paint me as hating faith people. By all means, enjoy yourselves. I won't be joining you, but I'm sure you'll agree that's no great loss.
Delivis saidhe concept it faith is outside of our conciosuness?
wtf? what on earth does that even mean? what are you calling faith?
It means that questions about the "meaning" of life and other such subjects of late-night dorm room discussions are no longer of any interest. The world is what it is. Science will eventually explain natural mysteries, and most of those won't be in my lifetime, and I'm fine with that. I do not turn to manufactured answers to questions I know I can't answer---I am content knowing that I will never have an answer but that eventually it will all get discovered.
So, the question of believing (or 'faith') in unseen entities is simply beyond the scope of my conscious mind. I do not think of it ever. Which I imagine is true for most atheists as well.
Delivis saidhe concept it faith is outside of our conciosuness?
wtf? what on earth does that even mean? what are you calling faith?
It means that questions about the "meaning" of life and other such subjects of late-night dorm room discussions are no longer of any interest. The world is what it is. Science will eventually explain natural mysteries, and most of those won't be in my lifetime, and I'm fine with that. I do not turn to manufactured answers to questions I know I can't answer---I am content knowing that I will never have an answer but that eventually it will all get discovered.
So, the question of believing (or 'faith') in unseen entities is simply beyond the scope of my conscious mind. I do not think of it ever. Which I imagine is true for most atheists as well.
Well i pretty much agree with that, you just phrased it in a very strange way with the whole concept-of-faith-outside-consciousness line.
The only working definition of faith i use is belief without evidence. Which is a perfectly comprehensive and useful definition.
Delivis> The only working definition of faith i use is belief without evidence
It's a good definition, but also the same as for PREMISE (or assumption).
Premises should be simple constructions (e.g. "the speed of light in a vacuum is constant"), not some convoluted and closed (circular) belief. Occam's razor, you know.
jackofhearts46> I was always intrigued to now why people chose atheism over theism.
Atheism is the state of nature, the default selection if you will. Consider that science is discovered while religion is "revealed".
Theisms are accepted on faith. But why pick one over the other? No real reason, at best a gut feeling, most likely based on prejudices picked up when young (i.e. indoctrination, the belief that my invisible friend can beat up your invisible friend).
jackofhearts46> Science doesn't have all the answers, and it can contradict it self (laws of conservation of mass and energy for starter).
I'm not sure I see a contradiction there, but regardless, you are correct that science can't provide all the answers. Does that mean that a book written thousands of years ago can? Or that any of many religious orders established over thousands of years can, or if they can that there is only one answer and that they have a monopoly on it?
Anyway, answering the OP: my theism slid away in fits & starts. My parents taught my siblings and me some of the cute bible stories when we were young, and reinforced the mythology with Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy. I suppose they thought it was adorable to see us pop up on Christmas morning to claim our meager hoard.
My mother admitted later that she was reluctant to share the Santa thing with us, but was prodded by her sisters and mother.
I was first in our family (at eight years old) to declare that Santa was a scam, and my mother was relieved that she no longer had to fake it.
Catechism bible study for me revealed the inconsistencies in our church pastor's teachings and started my long, slippery slide toward skepticism. Actually, I turned more fundamentalist, because at least there seemed to be some authority to that.
By college, I'd had enough. While attending a student union festival, I was introduced to a bible study group leader who couldn't tell me how dinosaurs fit into the Genesis myth. While visiting their booth I suddenly felt repulsed by their willful ignorance, and spent several minutes in a debate with the leader. He was a mess (although he spoke in kind, caring tones). I lost all respect for anyone who found the bible as an authority.
Years afterward, having shirked my earlier fundamentalism, I had sort of an epiphany (ironically), that came in the form of a question. After answering that question, I couldn't even believe in a benign, nondenominational, he-is-what-you-make-of-him deity. Neither the question nor the answer were very profound, but they ended the debate for me.
My own faith was slipping away and then I got ahold of a CD that has a song called "how can you live in the northeast?". In one refrain, the listener is asked
"how can you be a christian? how can you be a jew? how can you be a muslim, a buddhist, a hindu? how can you?"
the last line of the song goes
"I am wearing my father's old coat."
My own father's old coat stank of the fecund remnants of violent conversion as do many old coats, not the rosy bouquet of enlightenment.
Caesarea4 said I'm not sure I see a contradiction there, but regardless, you are correct that science can't provide all the answers. Does that mean that a book written thousands of years ago can? Or that any of many religious orders established over thousands of years can, or if they can that there is only one answer and that they have a monopoly on it?
Who said there are even answers to everything?
Umm... According to us Christians believe that the Holy Spirit told the Prophets what to say and do, as well as the Apostiles. while man wrote the Bible those men were Holy men who did Gods work. the Catholic and Orthodox Bible are the same, the Protestants are very different due to several Books being taken out. I don't know about Torah or Quran, because I am not Jewish or Muslim. The Bible is written by humans with the divine inspiration of the Holy Spirit. You have to know the Holy Trinity to understand Christianity. There evidence to prove that the Bible is real.... You'll have to visit a land called PALESTINE. ;-)
If you still want to be atheist then that is up to you to decide. Some atheists believe atheism is a religion and is often used by theists to criticise non-believers...
Seems to me that if god can carve words into stone tablets, part a sea, raise the dead, etc. that he didn't need for men to do his work. I can't believe in a god who needs ghostwriters.
This is a very important documentary that was done by the BBC many years ago It is informative as well as extremely scary and I think man's mind and brain had made civilization ...... but it's going to be religion that ends it all
This is part I You can see the whole documentary in parts on here too
Raised a Post-Vatican-2 Catholic - very happily, in a secure and devout yet open-minded extended family that included several uncles: both parish priests; studied Philosophy and Theology at a Jesuit ex-seminary - and even thought of going into the priesthood myself...
Lost my faith when I came out as gay and felt it incompatible with church doctrine ('Love the sinner, hate the sin') that would condem me to a life of lonelyness and virginity...
Was an atheist and Rationalist for a while - but found it simply too empty and negative a world-view to sustain for any period of time. I don't believe that a belief in Spirit is incompatible with science or rational thought - but do believe that rationality is not the entire sum of our identity...
Discovered paganism, and embraced it's life-affirming spirituality; eventually took Initiation as an Alexandrian Witch - and run a Coven jointly with my partner.
I believe that Spirituality is a deep need in many people - and that belief can be a source of great joy and personal inspiration. I also know that many religions are tribal-constructs - and that the conflict between Mystical awareness and societal ethic is often the cause of great grief - and that most of the wars and disputes that are blamed on religion are nothing to do with 'god' and all to do with tribalism.
I believe that 'All gods are one God' - and respect any and every person's belief (or non-belief) - so long as it harms none, and they in turn respect my own.
My background is Southern Baptist but with that said my parents always put me on the church bus and stayed at home on many occassions on Sunday, LOL. Once I got into high school and college and able to take comparative religion courses, my views on religion changed. I didnt see Christianity as my dominant personal belief.
Now having gone through grad school, I really have to say that I am an agnostic. I dont deny nor support the existence of a higher power.
I like how there are many posts on here from guys who claim to not be interested in religion. You obviously care or else you wouldn't have taken the time to write out what you believe.
Personally, I've made peace with the fact that there are many things in this life that I will never understand. Maybe there is a God. Maybe there isn't. Maybe nothing is a miracle. Maybe everything is a miracle. Who knows? In the end none of it matters.
What matters is making the most of the time we are given.
I fully acknowledge that there may not be a God but for some reason it's helpful for me to pray to God about things I'm unsure of. Those quiet, personal moments of reflection help me to make better decisions about my life.
As a parent you have to decide how you will address this issue with your kids. We've decided to expose them to religion and spirituality primarily through the Episcopal Church and Buddhism. In our mind this will give the kids a healthy dose of familiarity while keeping the toxic side of religious faith to a minimum.
One thing I am quite certain of is that pretty much all religions espouse the same rules on interacting with the world (charity, kindness, abstaining from unhealthy activities, etc) and if you do your best to live your life accordingly you'll end up having a lot more good days than bad days. This is something that even science agrees with.
"I like how there are many posts on here from guys who claim to not be interested in religion. You obviously care or else you wouldn't have taken the time to write out what you believe."
In all my time here, I haven't seen a single post indicating a disinterest in religion. While I loathe religion, I'm not disinterested in it. Rather I view it as a lifestyle choice that surely must be an abomination to any god that might exist.
jackofhearts46 saidi didn't mean to come off as anti atheist. just trying to understand. and i completely agree with your statement, but that's what faith is about.
and of course atheism isn't anti religion or faith, because that is the belief that there is nothing to believe in. the nihilist version of god so to speak.
Episcopalian, raised Southern Baptist. I was nonreligious for many years, after being completely turned off to the idea of God by my home church's stance on teh gay. The Episcopal Church is the only one I have found that offers unconditional embrace of all people, with nary a mention of sin, evil, ostracism of the nonbeliever, or (for the most part) any of that Christian mythology like virgin births, literal resurrection or the Garden of Eden. This is a thinking man's Christianity, focusing almost solely on the philosopher Jesus of Nazareth's teachings on unconditional love for all mankind...
wander2340> I fully acknowledge that there may not be a God but for some reason it's helpful for me to pray to God about things I'm unsure of. Those quiet, personal moments of reflection help me to make better decisions about my life.
I just talk to myself. I try not to do it out loud if other people might hear me. (:
Blackguy4you> of course atheism is a religion. a codified set of beliefs is a religion.
McGay said"I like how there are many posts on here from guys who claim to not be interested in religion. You obviously care or else you wouldn't have taken the time to write out what you believe."
In all my time here, I haven't seen a single post indicating a disinterest in religion. While I loathe religion, I'm not disinterested in it. Rather I view it as a lifestyle choice that surely must be an abomination to any god that might exist.
I think he was referring to this:
jprichvaAtheism is not a faith, an anti-faith, a lack of faith, or anger at faith. The entire notion of faith is completely outside the scope of our consciousness. It is literally without meaning or interest.
Ah, ok. I almost agree with jp. I am interested in religion though as it impacts everything. Currently, there's no escaping it. Being uninterested would be a bit like not being interested in one's enemies. My interest extends to hoping one day the world is rid of it.
McGay saidAh, ok. I almost agree with jp. I am interested in religion though as it impacts everything. Currently, there's no escaping it. Being uninterested would be a bit like not being interested in one's enemies. My interest extends to hoping one day the world is rid of it.
The subject of religion, as a historical force and a vehicle for people to express their worst selves, is endlessly interesting. It is the notion of supernaturalism which is not interesting at all.
Blackguy: What you demonstrate here is that you are also trapped in the prism of belief. The root "a" denotes "without". Not against, not for, simply without. And the definition of religion isn't merely a set of codified beliefs, that's an ideology. Religions by definition require some supernatural deity or deities.
Anyone every watched Julia Sweeney's "Letting Go of God"? It is an insightful personal story of her journey from Catholic to Atheist. For me personally I just never found a reason to believe. I remember when I was a kid my Grandmother's pastor's dog died and they told me he went to doggie heaven. Even at the young age I realized they are just trying to confort me, as I viewd the ideal of "doggie heaven" absurd - the dog is dead. I also never believed in Santa (parents never pushed it). In 4th grade I learned about the actual Saint Nicolas and realized that was where the Santa myth comes from. I found it odd that so many of my childhood friends believed in Santa (not to mention how bad I viewd it that their parents lied and mislead them). These friends took it so hard when they realized Santa wasn't real. I figured it would just be a natural progression to realize that the idea of God was just another Santa and eventually they would also drop the God ideal - few actually did. During high school and college I would often get into debates about the existance of God with theists - I was told serveral times I was going to burn in hell . Now I really don't care what someone's supernatural beliefs (can any of us really KNOW about such questions). What I found more important is what does your beliefs lead you to do? Does your values lead you to help the needy? etc. Though I an atheist, I find more vaule in a person of faith that goes out and helps the poor etc. more than I would an materalistic atheist who cares only about "getting more toys". I do have a massive issue though with churches, and its supporters, which have anti-homosexual teachigs because such teachings does so much harm to gays trying to accept themselves and to gay rights in general. I perfer using "Humanist" to define myself over atheist/Agnostic. I want the focus to be on what I am for not what I am against. I believe humans, especially myself, are not perfect but by working together we can try making the world a better place for us all.
I believe in God because there is so much intelligence and design in our world and human body that there is absolutely no way all of this could come into being without a very intelligent and powerful being designing it and bringing this all about. When you visit a big city like Chicago, common sense tells you that all those buildings were designed by someone and they just didn't erect themself. Another thing is I am just amazed at how much intelligent design there is in our human bodies--to me that alone speaks volumes of a higher CREATOR than ourselves. So, yes, I do believe in God and yes I do believe that in love he wants ALL people to be in heaven and therefore did everything necessary for EVERYONE to be there. The 2 commands he gave us, which summarizes all the others are to LOVE HIM ABOVE EVERYTHING ELSE and LOVE OUR FELLOWMAN AS OURSELF. Since the Son of God loves all and earned heaven for all, the least I can do is return his love with my love for him and everyone else in the world whom he also loves. That is the kind of belief I have. I love God the most and I show that I love him the most by loving all people who are a part of his loving creation, whom he created for me to love.
Forget all this other religious crap that you hear from people and just read your own Bible and you will see that GOD IS LOVE BECAUSE HE REDEEMED US ALL FROM SIN. THERE ISN"T ONE SINGLE PERSON ON THIS EARTH THAT JESUS DID NOT DIE FOR. The only people who will be in hell are those who don't believe in God's love and that he died for them.
Caesarea4 saidwander2340> I fully acknowledge that there may not be a God but for some reason it's helpful for me to pray to God about things I'm unsure of. Those quiet, personal moments of reflection help me to make better decisions about my life.
I just talk to myself. I try not to do it out loud if other people might hear me. (:
Blackguy4you> of course atheism is a religion. a codified set of beliefs is a religion.
G_Force saidI believe in God because there is so much intelligence and design in our world and human body that there is absolutely no way all of this could come into being without a very intelligent and powerful being designing it and bringing this all about. When you visit a big city like Chicago, common sense tells you that all those buildings were designed by someone and they just didn't erect themself. Another thing is I am just amazed at how much intelligent design there is in our human bodies--to me that alone speaks volumes of a higher CREATOR than ourselves. So, yes, I do believe in God and yes I do believe that in love he wants ALL people to be in heaven and therefore did everything necessary for EVERYONE to be there. The 2 commands he gave us, which summarizes all the others are to LOVE HIM ABOVE EVERYTHING ELSE and LOVE OUR FELLOWMAN AS OURSELF. Since the Son of God loves all and earned heaven for all, the least I can do is return his love with my love for him and everyone else in the world whom he also loves. That is the kind of belief I have. I love God the most and I show that I love him the most by loving all people who are a part of his loving creation, whom he created for me to love.
Forget all this other religious crap that you hear from people and just read your own Bible and you will see that GOD IS LOVE BECAUSE HE REDEEMED US ALL FROM SIN. THERE ISN"T ONE SINGLE PERSON ON THIS EARTH THAT JESUS DID NOT DIE FOR. The only people who will be in hell are those who don't believe in God's love and that he died for them.
Caesarea4 saidwander2340> I fully acknowledge that there may not be a God but for some reason it's helpful for me to pray to God about things I'm unsure of. Those quiet, personal moments of reflection help me to make better decisions about my life.
I just talk to myself. I try not to do it out loud if other people might hear me. (:
Blackguy4you> of course atheism is a religion. a codified set of beliefs is a religion.
McGay saidAh, ok. I almost agree with jp. I am interested in religion though as it impacts everything. Currently, there's no escaping it. Being uninterested would be a bit like not being interested in one's enemies. My interest extends to hoping one day the world is rid of it.
The subject of religion, as a historical force and a vehicle for people to express their worst selves, is endlessly interesting. It is the notion of supernaturalism which is not interesting at all.
Blackguy: What you demonstrate here is that you are also trapped in the prism of belief. The root "a" denotes "without". Not against, not for, simply without. And the definition of religion isn't merely a set of codified beliefs, that's an ideology. Religions by definition require some supernatural deity or deities.
You say trapped I say liberated.
We all believe in something. Even if you believe in the non-existence of the divine - that in and of itself is a belief.
I have read the Bible. There are some really great parts, but there are some really horrible parts as well. I am sorry but I don't find the "you will burn in hell if you don't worship and believe in Jesus as savior" all that inspiring. I just can not believe in a "loving God" would damn someone like Gandhi, who lived a life of value, to hell because he was not of the right "faith".
Blackguy4you said You say trapped I say liberated. We all believe in something. Even if you believe in the non-existence of the divine - that in and of itself is a belief. I happen to believe that God exists.
We're talking past each other here. I don't think you're 'trapped' by your faith. I mean that you seem not to be able to conceptualize a worldview that doesn't include belief, which you then proceed to demonstrate. Your phrase "we all believe in something" simply isn't true. And you're going to have to accept that on---er---faith.
If I'm gay or bi , who in the fuck really cares? If someone thinks you go to hell for being gay, then I guess everyone else is going to be there, too, because does not the Bible say that ANY sin will condemn you to hell? I've never met a person yet who lives the way the Bible says we should live. Have you? If heaven depends on that, I know then that NO ONE will be there. I don't believe being gay or not being gay has anything to do with who goes to heaven. Heaven is a gift which Jesus earned for all sinners, including gays, and that is what I beleive because that is what God says in the Bible and I'll believe him any day over what anyone else says.
No, it doesn't. The bozos who claimed to be doing it's work say in the bible. The bible is a lie. Actually, a collection of lies, fictions, storytelling written by the Stephen Kings of that day.
I don't believe in burning books, but i'd make an exception for bibles, korans and torahs and any other work of fiction that claims to be fact. Dianetics anyone?
Blackguy4you said You say trapped I say liberated. We all believe in something. Even if you believe in the non-existence of the divine - that in and of itself is a belief. I happen to believe that God exists.
We're talking past each other here. I don't think you're 'trapped' by your faith. I mean that you seem not to be able to conceptualize a worldview that doesn't include belief, which you then proceed to demonstrate. Your phrase "we all believe in something" simply isn't true. And you're going to have to accept that on---er---faith.
Semantics pure and simple
We are all created with the need to believe. no matter how you cut and dice it - it is innate.
If you can state that you have a world view that does not include belief - then you are making a concerted effort to create this worldview and to do so is in and of itself a belief.
I make a concerted effort to create a world view where the divine and belief in Him exists.
G_Force saidIf I'm gay or bi , who in the fuck really cares? If someone thinks you go to hell for being gay, then I guess everyone else is going to be there, too, because does not the Bible say that ANY sin will condemn you to hell? I've never met a person yet who lives the way the Bible says we should live. Have you? If heaven depends on that, I know then that NO ONE will be there. I don't believe being gay or not being gay has anything to do with who goes to heaven. Heaven is a gift which Jesus earned for all sinners, including gays, and that is what I beleive because that is what God says in the Bible and I'll believe him any day over what anyone else says.
I think the reason so many gays take issue with religion is because it is so often used as a reason to repress gays. People have used the few passages in the Bible (and other holy books as well) as a justification for this oppression. I am willing to bet that there is a high correlation (even in this day) between how religious a family is (especially conservative) and their willingness to kick out a gay son/daughter out of their house.
G_Force saidIf I'm gay or bi , who in the fuck really cares? If someone thinks you go to hell for being gay, then I guess everyone else is going to be there, too, because does not the Bible say that ANY sin will condemn you to hell? I've never met a person yet who lives the way the Bible says we should live. Have you? If heaven depends on that, I know then that NO ONE will be there. I don't believe being gay or not being gay has anything to do with who goes to heaven. Heaven is a gift which Jesus earned for all sinners, including gays, and that is what I beleive because that is what God says in the Bible and I'll believe him any day over what anyone else says.
I think the reason so many gays take issue with religion is because it is so often used as a reason to repress gays. People have used the few passages in the Bible (and other holy books as well) as a justification for this oppression. I am willing to bet that there is a high correlation (even in this day) between how religious a family is (especially conservative) and their willingness to kick out a gay son/daughter out of their house.
Religion was also used to oppress black people in worse ways than it did/does to oppress gay people. How come black folks can still believe in the divine?
No way. We don't even consider the stuff until someone tells us about it and even then we only believe the stuff we're told by the adults near us to believe. Kids don't believe in santa until someone tells them that's where the gifts come from. Kids don't believe in god until someone tells them to. Primitive people saw the sun and moon and thought they were gods. The egyptians worshipped cats. Hindus believe cows to be sacred. How can that be when others eat them? Someone told them to consider cows sacred - their parents.
I think we're born with an innate curiosity, but not a need to believe in things we don't understand. As Stevie Wonder put it
when you believe in things that you don't understand then you suffer superstition aint the way no no no
G_Force saidIf I'm gay or bi , who in the fuck really cares? If someone thinks you go to hell for being gay, then I guess everyone else is going to be there, too, because does not the Bible say that ANY sin will condemn you to hell? I've never met a person yet who lives the way the Bible says we should live. Have you? If heaven depends on that, I know then that NO ONE will be there. I don't believe being gay or not being gay has anything to do with who goes to heaven. Heaven is a gift which Jesus earned for all sinners, including gays, and that is what I beleive because that is what God says in the Bible and I'll believe him any day over what anyone else says.
I think the reason so many gays take issue with religion is because it is so often used as a reason to repress gays. People have used the few passages in the Bible (and other holy books as well) as a justification for this oppression. I am willing to bet that there is a high correlation (even in this day) between how religious a family is (especially conservative) and their willingness to kick out a gay son/daughter out of their house.
... I don't believe in burning books, but i'd make an exception for bibles, korans and torahs and any other work of fiction that claims to be fact. Dianetics anyone?
Not sure if you serious, but it would be just as wrong to burn religious book as when religious people burn books they disapporve of. I am not Christian but I have serveral Bibles and other holy books. It is important even for atheist to learn/understand the context of religion - please don't burn my holy books
I'd never burn a holy book, if there was such a thing but would gladly burn bibles, korans and torahs. Oh, wait, holy books - The Joy of Gay Sex. I'd never burn that one.
phemt said I have read the Bible. There are some really great parts, but there are some really horrible parts as well. I am sorry but I don't find the "you will burn in hell if you don't worship and believe in Jesus as savior" all that inspiring. I just can not believe in a "loving God" would damn someone like Gandhi, who lived a life of value, to hell because he was not of the right "faith".
See if you can find ghandi in hell .. first one who spots the minute marker gets a prize ..
G_Force said ... Religion was also used to oppress black people in worse ways than it did/does to oppress gay people. How come black folks can still believe in the divine?
This is just an excuse that some gay people use.
Would you had supported a church during that time which used the bible to support slavery? Gay can still believe in God and even go to church. Not all churches press an anti-gay aganda. In areas where faithful gays could not find such a church they created their own e.g. MCC and Diginty.
phemt said I have read the Bible. There are some really great parts, but there are some really horrible parts as well. I am sorry but I don't find the "you will burn in hell if you don't worship and believe in Jesus as savior" all that inspiring. I just can not believe in a "loving God" would damn someone like Gandhi, who lived a life of value, to hell because he was not of the right "faith".
If people don't take advantage of gifts and receive it, it's nobody's fault but the person who refused to receive it. If I want to give a gift of $20 to someone, but he refuses it, then he is not going to get my $20. The same is true with God. If Gandi refuses to beleive that God gave heaven as a a gift and rejects it, then Ghandi should not expect to receive heaven when it is rejected. We are to live a life of value but OUR LIFE HAS VALUE ONLY BECAUSE OF GOD"S LOVE FOR US AND NOT BECAUSE OF OURSELF. Because I know that not even Ghandi always lived the perfect life. We all need forgiveness--there isn't anyone who lives a perfect life of sainthood--not even the POPE. LOL.
McGay said"We are all created with the need to believe."
No way. We don't even consider the stuff until someone tells us about it and even then we only believe the stuff we're told by the adults near us to believe. Kids don't believe in santa until someone tells them that's where the gifts come from. Kids don't believe in god until someone tells them to. Primitive people saw the sun and moon and thought they were gods. The egyptians worshipped cats. Hindus believe cows to be sacred. How can that be when others eat them? Someone told them to consider cows sacred - their parents.
I think we're born with an innate curiosity, but not a need to believe in things we don't understand. As Stevie Wonder put it
when you believe in things that you don't understand then you suffer superstition aint the way no no no
why would primitive man see the sun and moon and believe they were gods? why did primitive man create gods? why would hindus believe that a cow is sacred? it goes beyond mere curiosity. we are created with the innate need to believe that there's something larger than ourselves.
Blackguy4you saidReligion was also used to oppress black people in worse ways than it did/does to oppress gay people. How come black folks can still believe in the divine?
This is just an excuse that some gay people use.
OK, stop. Plenty of gays believe in a god, too, being oppressed by the very same religion as blacks. Most of the human race is raised by their parents to believe in some god, rational or not. Regardless of what that god has stood for, most children do not contradict their parents. An observation like, "This god probably doesn't like my people," rarely becomes a rationalization for rejecting it, sadly.
As one of the atheists here, I can tell you that this point was one of the deal-breakers for me and the bible. My rationalizations about whether or not God exists came AFTER I had rejected the bible.
Oh, and another thing: earlier you said we were created to believe something. Realizing you are obviously begging the question, let me help you reword that, so your premise isn't in your conclusion: we are born (most of us) with a tendency for perceiving patterns in seemingly unrelated observations. We do appear to be hard-wired for that. However, we also have the ability to look critically at our perceptions and reject or uphold them with tools not limited by our feeble brains.
phemt said I have read the Bible. There are some really great parts, but there are some really horrible parts as well. I am sorry but I don't find the "you will burn in hell if you don't worship and believe in Jesus as savior" all that inspiring. I just can not believe in a "loving God" would damn someone like Gandhi, who lived a life of value, to hell because he was not of the right "faith".
If people don't take advantage of gifts and receive it, it's nobody's fault but the person who refused to receive it. If I want to give a gift of $20 to someone, but he refuses it, then he is not going to get my $20. The same is true with God. If Gandi refuses to beleive that God gave heaven as a a gift and rejects it, then Ghandi should not expect to receive heaven when it is rejected. We are to live a life of value but OUR LIFE HAS VALUE ONLY BECAUSE OF GOD"S LOVE FOR US AND NOT BECAUSE OF OURSELF. Because I know that not even Ghandi always lived the perfect life. We all need forgiveness--there isn't anyone who lives a perfect life of sainthood--not even the POPE. LOL.
Believe as you wish. I just care that people who share your beliefs don't ever again take it upond themselves to burn or torture people who don't hold those beliefs.
G_Force saidIf I'm gay or bi , who in the fuck really cares? If someone thinks you go to hell for being gay, then I guess everyone else is going to be there, too, because does not the Bible say that ANY sin will condemn you to hell? I've never met a person yet who lives the way the Bible says we should live. Have you? If heaven depends on that, I know then that NO ONE will be there. I don't believe being gay or not being gay has anything to do with who goes to heaven. Heaven is a gift which Jesus earned for all sinners, including gays, and that is what I beleive because that is what God says in the Bible and I'll believe him any day over what anyone else says.
I think the reason so many gays take issue with religion is because it is so often used as a reason to repress gays. People have used the few passages in the Bible (and other holy books as well) as a justification for this oppression. I am willing to bet that there is a high correlation (even in this day) between how religious a family is (especially conservative) and their willingness to kick out a gay son/daughter out of their house.
Let's see
I'm of jewish-black descent and I'm gay
Damn!!!! 3 strikes against me!
There's no hope then is there?!?!
I guess there's really no hope for me or anyone else for that matter because of anger and hatred I and others have had and It's one of the 7 deadly sins. I think anger will condemn me before homosexuality. lol
Christian, (meaning I follow what Christ taught) Always went for the original undistorted version of Christianity, which means Christianity before it got changed around by Europe. The whole denomination thing doesn't mean anything to me. I don't believe in going to hell if you're bad getting poked in the ass by a red man with a spiked tail, and fork, or getting a halo, wings and playing the harp, if you're good. When you die your soul goes back to god good or bad, and you cease to exist. I do believe in resurrection and those who were good, (not perfect) with love in their heart for god, will be resurrected.
The images of both things, were created by men to scare, and control men. God is not about keeping people in fear, he wants people to love him, and I do not fear what I love. God isn't about controlling people, because man, as well as the angels have free will. And controlling people to love you, isn't love. The fear, and control, are all man made. Made by men who are all about themselves, and feeding their lust for power, vanity, and the control of others. Christ never did that, and said it was wrong for men to do that to others.
I believe in something bigger than myself, and try my best to be a good man, inspired from the basic teachings of the bible, all good people of the world, who've made changes for the better, all inspired from their faith, and love for god... Hmm I've had my rough times like any other person out there, I was raised by strong people, and of course the experiences I've had in my life have made me a strong wise person. My faith in god I feel only made me an even stronger person, a wiser person, more understanding, more caring, giving, and yeah I'm pretty damn happy. I don't think I'm perfect, nobody is, I know god knows that, and knows whats in my heart, no other man can ever know, or judge me.
I love my life, and enjoy it to the fullest because you never know when its your last day on earth.. My idea of enjoying life isn't running around screwing every person that makes your dick hard, or running around doing drugs, or being concerned with attaining more material things, because all of those things have many consequences that will ruin your life, not to mention I feel people who give into such behaviors are weak. People who claim to be of god, yet have hate for others, and try to use god to justify their hate, and separation of other men, or try to control other men, are not men of god at all. Just men who try to wear the mask, but do all of the things the Satan is about, hating, separating, and misleading people.
Only thing I worry about, is making sure my family and friends are happy, and well taken care of, and doing my best to help those in need. As I've gotten help when I was in need myself.
I do believe in chance, luck, coincidences, scientific explanations, and shit just happening.. But again being a spiritually strong, and wise man, you can for damn sure know/feel when something is much bigger than that.
Those are my beliefs, and I've always been a happy guy because of em, even when things were real bad, and depressing. Do what works for you, you are free to do so.
mickeytopogigio saidWe do appear to be hard-wired for that. However, we also have the ability to look critically at our perceptions and reject or uphold them with tools not limited by our feeble brains.
If our brains are feeble, then how can we look at things critically? If it is "hard-wired" then it will always be there like being Gay .. are you taking about repressing religious tendencies?
Blackguy4you saidReligion was also used to oppress black people in worse ways than it did/does to oppress gay people. How come black folks can still believe in the divine?
This is just an excuse that some gay people use.
OK, stop. Plenty of gays believe in a god, too, being oppressed by the very same religion as blacks. Most of the human race is raised by their parents to believe in some god, rational or not. Regardless of what that god has stood for, most children do not contradict their parents. An observation like, "This god probably doesn't like my people," rarely becomes a rationalization for rejecting it, sadly.
As one of the atheists here, I can tell you that this point was one of the deal-breakers for me and the bible. My rationalizations about whether or not God exists came AFTER I had rejected the bible.
Oh, and another thing: earlier you said we were created to believe something. Realizing you are obviously begging the question, let me help you reword that, so your premise isn't in your conclusion: we are born (most of us) with a tendency for perceiving patterns in seemingly unrelated observations. We do appear to be hard-wired for that. However, we also have the ability to look critically at our perceptions and reject or uphold them with tools not limited by our feeble brains.
Let's use the population of RJ as a representative sample of the gay population. Let's see by a show of hands the guys who believe/do not believe in the divine. I would bet you that at most you would find only 3-5% who claim to believe in God. Care to try?
Whether you later make a concerted effort to refuse to believe in God in no way invalidates the fact that we born with the innate desire to believe in the divine.
mickeytopogigio saidWe do appear to be hard-wired for that. However, we also have the ability to look critically at our perceptions and reject or uphold them with tools not limited by our feeble brains.
If our brains are feeble, then how can we look at things critically? If it is "hard-wired" then it will always be there like being Gay .. are you taking about repressing religious inclinations?
Yes, I'm talking about seeing patterns. Our feeble brains require training to overcome this, and we've learned to rely on multiple brains (like say, a medical journal) to help us see better. More brains, less feeble. It's a tool we've invented.
Blackguy4you said Whether you later make a concerted effort to refuse to believe in God in no way invalidates the fact that we born with the innate desire to believe in the divine.
You keep saying this as if it were a fact. I dispute this "fact". I don't think we're born with any such need or desire. I've never once felt it, nor anyone in my family, nor plenty of my friends. Some may have, but that hardly constitutes a universal thing.
Blackguy4you saidLet's use the population of RJ as a representative sample of the gay population. Let's see by a show of hands the guys who believe/do not believe in the divine. I would bet you that at most you would find only 3-5% who claim to believe in God. Care to try?
Whether you later make a concerted effort to refuse to believe in God in no way invalidates the fact that we born with the innate desire to believe in the divine.
Please look up Begging the Question.
Please survey American children's belief in Santa Claus. A survey tells you nothing of WHY children believe in Santa Claus (is it innate?). Likewise a survey here will not tell you why RealJocks believe in a god.
mickeytopogigio saidWe do appear to be hard-wired for that. However, we also have the ability to look critically at our perceptions and reject or uphold them with tools not limited by our feeble brains.
If our brains are feeble, then how can we look at things critically? If it is "hard-wired" then it will always be there like being Gay .. are you taking about repressing religious inclinations?
Yes, I'm talking about seeing patterns. Our feeble brains require training to overcome this, and we've learned to rely on multiple brains (like say, a medical journal) to help us see better. More brains, less feeble. It's a tool we've invented.
How would a feeble brain comprehend a medical journal? It seems like that would require belief which would be a religious tendency
If I had to pick between being with Gandhi: a Hindu who preached non-violence or John Calvin: a Christian who approved burning a man (Michael Servetus). I only hope I could have the honor of being with Gandhi where ever he might be.
God is like absolute truth. The absolute truth is that truth is NOT absolute. Therefore God is not absolute.
If there is an absolute truth, who is to say that God isn't absolute (exists)? Then again, if truth isn't absolute then God cannot be either. Here is the problem. How can you prove that I am wrong or right? The answer is you cant. Without proof, truth can not exist and without truth we have nothing. That is why we take a leap of faith.
God and absolute truth is beyond our understanding. THAT is a truth. Whether you choose to believe that is your choice, but know that it is a belief and beliefs require faith and faith is flawed.
Jackofhearts4: "Science doesn't have all the answers, and it can contradict it self (laws of conservation of mass and energy for starter). I"m not saying that you must have a belief in something else beyond human rationale, but just wanting to know why you don't? and why are you so jaded?"
Just so we're all on the same page, this is not an example of a contradiction in science. The law of conservation of mass is more of a guideline; it holds in some everyday scenarios and is pretty useful in those contexts, but really, conservation of energy is the law; conservation of mass is just a rule of thumb you can rely on in everyday life.
That's not to say there aren't inconsistencies in science. One excellent example would be the failure of the correspondence principle between quantum mechanics and general relativity. Both make extraordinarily accurate predictions in the small and large domains, respectively, but we would very much like for the two to *agree* on problems like black holes--or even the phenomenon of gravity itself. We've made some steps towards unification--relativistic quantum electrodynamics being one of the huge successes of the 20th century--but a quantized theory of gravity still eludes us.
There is a more subtle type of disagreement as well--it is possible to do science on things that, strictly speaking, can't be shown to exist. Psychology, for example, is full of scientifically successful models of the mind which are statistically corroborated. We can say that results on some test are indicative of a personality trait, and predict behavior from that trait. Sure, that's science, but a physicist would be hard pressed to identify the trait except as physical object. There you might see inconsistency because scientific models can be valid only on certain domains, like the mind. Sure, they're inconsistent, but only if you try to stretch the theories far enough to cover everything.
"Science cannot explain everything right now though. Is this because:
1. Science will never be able to explain everything? Spirituality/religion can only explain the unknown.
or....
2. We don't have the technology to properly implement the use of Science to answer the unknown? Thus, SOMEDAY the answers of the unexplainable will be discovered; however, most likely not in my life time."
1. Science is restricted, by definition, to operating on the natural world. If your ontology includes supernatural entities, science will not be able to explain everything.
2. Definitely true. There are many open problems in science right now!
Neither of these addresses the real question, however. One should not evaluate ways of understanding based on how complete their claims are, but on how those claims are founded. It is possible to construct an infinite number of explanations for any phenomenon which are indistinguishable on the basis of the evidence alone; the trick lies in choosing one (or more) of those explanations. Some people, like myself, prefer to use parsimony and internal consistency as metrics--but that choice is not always comfortable. I can explain more if you like.
Blackguy4you saidLet's use the population of RJ as a representative sample of the gay population. Let's see by a show of hands the guys who believe/do not believe in the divine. I would bet you that at most you would find only 3-5% who claim to believe in God. Care to try?
Whether you later make a concerted effort to refuse to believe in God in no way invalidates the fact that we born with the innate desire to believe in the divine.
Please look up Begging the Question.
Please survey American children's belief in Santa Claus. A survey tells you nothing of WHY children believe in Santa Claus (is it innate?). Likewise a survey here will not tell you why RealJocks believe in a god.
No, let's first have the survery of how many gay guys believe in God or not! We can deal with santa clause and yr view of logical fallacies later
phemt said I have read the Bible. There are some really great parts, but there are some really horrible parts as well. I am sorry but I don't find the "you will burn in hell if you don't worship and believe in Jesus as savior" all that inspiring. I just can not believe in a "loving God" would damn someone like Gandhi, who lived a life of value, to hell because he was not of the right "faith".
See if you can find ghandi in hell .. first one who spots the minute marker gets a prize ..
Forty-six secs he is shown in hell -- where is my prize
ActiveAndFit saidHow would a feeble brain comprehend a medical journal? It seems like that would require belief which would be a religious tendency
My brain is feeble. It is powerful enough to read, but not powerful enough to overcome some of its innate limitations, like a tendency to see patterns where none exist.
Right now, you are reading this, but not comprehending it well (and drawing some stretched conclusions, I might add). With my brain and your brain, working together, we'll be able to understand each other better without our prejudices mucking it up.
Dante_redux saidGod is like absolute truth. The absolute truth is that truth is NOT absolute. Therefore God is not absolute.
If there is an absolute truth, who is to say that God isn't absolute (exists)? Then again, if truth isn't absolute then God cannot be either. Here is the problem. How can you prove that I am wrong or right? The answer is you cant. Without proof, truth can not exist and without truth we have nothing. That is why we take a leap of faith.
God and absolute truth is beyond our understanding. THAT is a truth. Whether you choose to believe that is your choice, but know that it is a belief and beliefs require faith and faith is flawed.
Blackguy4you saidNo, let's first have the survery of how many gay guys believe in God or not! We can deal with santa clause and yr view of logical fallacies later
When you design your survey, what conclusion are you expecting to draw?
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Read your Bible instead of listening to all the bull crap coming from so many preachers today. My life is more in harmony with what the Bible says then most religious teachers today and that is no lie. So if we are going to get into heaven by how well we live a life of sainhoood, I got them all beat for sure. lol
Sorry, guys, but I'm going to beleieve the Bible over some preacher today. They ought to do what they preach first before preaching to others.
I don't just think I'm going to be heaven, but I know I am because Jesus says so. He says he died for me and I totally believe him and yes, I beleive that he himself will come and raise my body from the dead because of my faith and trust in him.
Any thing/being/person/power/existence that could smite someone for not believing what they instruct in is, in my eyes, a dictator ---> terrorist ---> evil.
And thats from catholic schools all my life, irish catholic upbringing, etc etc etc. All i had to do was face the fact that im gay and not part of the majority to finally see who the "church" adored .. and who it hated.
G_Force saidDon't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Read your Bible instead of listening to all the bull crap coming from so many preachers today.
You must not have read the bible, nor studied the process by which the books were chosen, because there's a whole lotta bull crap in that too.
Blackguy4you saidNo, let's first have the survery of how many gay guys believe in God or not! We can deal with santa clause and yr view of logical fallacies later
When you design your survey, what conclusion are you expecting to draw?
We are going to use your belief as you stated in an earlier post just reversed somewhat.
The goal is to prove that most gay guys don't believe in God and they do so because of their rationalization that God doesn't like them.
Blackguy4you said Whether you later make a concerted effort to refuse to believe in God in no way invalidates the fact that we born with the innate desire to believe in the divine.
You keep saying this as if it were a fact. I dispute this "fact". I don't think we're born with any such need or desire. I've never once felt it, nor anyone in my family, nor plenty of my friends. Some may have, but that hardly constitutes a universal thing.
I watched a Bill Moyer's show about a year ago where he was interviewing the author, Margaret Atwood. In it, he addressed the fact that she had said her parents were 'pure agnostics.' He asked her to explain it further. From what I can remember , she continued by discussing the idea of dogma. She argued that atheists were just as dogmatic as religionists because they accept something without proof, based on faith. Her argument was you dont have empirical proof god exists or god doesnt exist. She went on to say there isnt a scientific test to empirically prove or disprove the existence of god. I thought that was interesting.
I read a couple of threads here where people mentioned that atheism like religion adopts believe without proof , or in other words faith. I am not sure of my opinions here but I thought it was an interesting spin on religion and a couple of the comments here reminded me of that Margaret Atwood interview.
I also like the idea a couple of people mentioned about being 'a humanist' as opposed to chosing the word agnostic/atheist. I am ignorant of the concept of humanism except for a very basic level of knowledge from college. So I would have to wait and study it a little more before making a decision that I was a humanist.
For now the Atwood description of agnostics works for me. Either way, I require a little more before making a swing one way or the other.
I had a discussion with a friend of mine after I watched that interview and he considers himself an atheist. He pretty much denounced the Atwood description and pretty much told me that I chose the concept of agnosticism because I couldnt get off the fence and make a decision. I have to admit that hurt a little. I didnt feel that I was on the fence about it at all but in fact being scientific about it instead.
ActiveAndFit saidHow would a feeble brain comprehend a medical journal? It seems like that would require belief which would be a religious tendency
My brain is feeble. It is powerful enough to read, but not powerful enough to overcome some of its innate limitations, like a tendency to see patterns where none exist.
Right now, you are reading this, but not comprehending it well (and drawing some stretched conclusions, I might add). With my brain and your brain, working together, we'll be able to understand each other better without our prejudices mucking it up.
I don't have prejudices Unless you can derive E=MC^2 (or any complex knowledge) you have to have belief .. the suspension of understanding based on the belief that it is correct.
Blackguy4you saidThe goal is to prove that most gay guys don't believe in God and they do so because of their rationalization that God doesn't like them.
I suspect many will answer in the affirmative. You will also find those who never believed at all, because they were raised that way.
So, the survey will not give you much insight (or ammunition, it looks like) to demonstrate that humans are born to believe in something.
ActiveAndFit saidUnless you can derive E=MC^2 (or any complex knowledge) you have to have belief .. the suspension of understanding based on the belief that it is correct.
This equation, as you well know, was a group effort. Einstein is credited with this, but his addition was a final brick in a vast construction project that was started in ancient Greece.
G_Force saidDon't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Read your Bible instead of listening to all the bull crap coming from so many preachers today. My life is more in harmony with what the Bible says then most religious teachers today and that is no lie. So if we are going to get into heaven by how well we live a life of sainhoood, I got them all beat for sure. lol
Sorry, guys, but I'm going to beleieve the Bible over some preacher today. They ought to do what they preach first before preaching to others.
I don't just think I'm going to be heaven, but I know I am because Jesus says so. He says he died for me and I totally believe him and yes, I beleive that he himself will come and raise my body from the dead because of my faith and trust in him.
I am just wondering, on a personal note, would you be friends with a non-believer? I mean really friends without always telling him what a sinner and how he is going to hell bluh bluh bluh. Or would you view a non-believer as a threat and refuse to befriend him until he changed to your way of thinking? I ask this because I had what I thought were friends who were Jehovah Witnesses. I would play risk with them on weekend and even did a few bible studies and visted their Kingdom hall. Once they realized I was not going to adopt their beliefs they cut me off as a friend(they didn't know I was gay). Made me feel like the only reason they were friends with me was to convert me and they really didnt care much about me. Might sound odd but eventhough I am an atheist I enjoyed talking and hanging out with the JVs.Generally I find liberal chiristians have no issue with being friends with those of different faiths, but it seems more conservative christians will shun those who don't share their faith. Besides the whole "you are going to hell stuff" I generaly enjoy hanging out with people of faith and often find them to have a great sence of meaning/value in their lives.
ActiveAndFit saidUnless you can derive E=MC^2 (or any complex knowledge) you have to have belief .. the suspension of understanding based on the belief that it is correct.
This equation, as you well know, was a group effort. Einstein is credited with this, but his addition was a final brick in a vast construction project that was started in ancient Greece.
Construction: Yeah, the [Greek] Pantheon You see humans still have to engage belief because no one can know everything they "know"
phemt said I have read the Bible. There are some really great parts, but there are some really horrible parts as well. I am sorry but I don't find the "you will burn in hell if you don't worship and believe in Jesus as savior" all that inspiring. I just can not believe in a "loving God" would damn someone like Gandhi, who lived a life of value, to hell because he was not of the right "faith".
If people don't take advantage of gifts and receive it, it's nobody's fault but the person who refused to receive it. If I want to give a gift of $20 to someone, but he refuses it, then he is not going to get my $20. The same is true with God. If Gandi refuses to beleive that God gave heaven as a a gift and rejects it, then Ghandi should not expect to receive heaven when it is rejected. We are to live a life of value but OUR LIFE HAS VALUE ONLY BECAUSE OF GOD"S LOVE FOR US AND NOT BECAUSE OF OURSELF. Because I know that not even Ghandi always lived the perfect life. We all need forgiveness--there isn't anyone who lives a perfect life of sainthood--not even the POPE. LOL.
Believe as you wish. I just care that people who share your beliefs don't ever again take it upond themselves to burn or torture people who don't hold those beliefs.
Jesus NEVER burned or tortured anyone who rejected him as the Messiah and Savior. He could have gotten revenge to the people who crucified him, but he didn't . He always returned evil with good because he was holy, but unfortunately as a sinful human being, I like to get revenge, but I would certainly never burn or torture anyone who didn't beleive as I do. At least in my Bible Jesus never said we should burn and torture people who don't beleive in him, but rather he said we should do good to them and pray for them. And that's what I do.
G_Force> I believe in God because there is so much intelligence and design in our world and human body that there is absolutely no way all of this could come into being without a very intelligent and powerful being designing it and bringing this all about
Intelligent design? Like our appendix which serves no purpose? Or deep sea fish with eyes... where there is no light?
It isn't one just because you say so. If you have some proof of this, out with it. But this is like stamping your feet and holding your breath until you turn blue. It's not an argument, it's an assertion without any basis.
Blackguy4you saidThe goal is to prove that most gay guys don't believe in God and they do so because of their rationalization that God doesn't like them.
I suspect many will answer in the affirmative. You will also find those who never believed at all, because they were raised that way.
So, the survey will not give you much insight (or ammunition, it looks like) to demonstrate that humans are born to believe in something.
i disagree and we'll have to agree to disagree
it would show that somewhere along the line - just like you did - that a decision was made not to believe.
as one poster has said even primitive man looked at the sun and moon and believed they were gods. we are all born with the innate desire to believe. i think we are not being honest with ourselves when we argue the opposite.
Blackguy4you saidit would show that somewhere along the line - just like you did - that a decision was made not to believe.
Again, your survey will not address the proportion of people who were brought up never being taught to believe.
There are more than one path to redemption (in this case away from redemption). Some of it is rationalization (as you correctly assert), but some of it is LACK of rationalizing. Atheists come from both paths.
Faith isn't exactly belief (based in an emotional understanding) without understanding. It is also belief pending evidence (and that evidence can be either experiential, subjective, or objective). Those that solely rely on objective data in their validity of beliefs, often dismiss the multiple ways of knowing, all the other ways that we come into knowledge that are also legitimate in their own regard.
Blackguy4you saidNo, let's first have the survery of how many gay guys believe in God or not! We can deal with santa clause and yr view of logical fallacies later
When you design your survey, what conclusion are you expecting to draw?
We are going to use your belief as you stated in an earlier post just reversed somewhat.
The goal is to prove that most gay guys don't believe in God and they do so because of their rationalization that God doesn't like them.
I can't speak for anyone by myself, but I didn't believe in God long before I ever know I was "gay" or that religion tends to teaches against homosexuality. The whole thing just seemed like a fairy tale much like Santa. My parents, as far as I recall, never pushed any such things to me. My view is that mankind is at first born in a blank state as belief goes. As we got older and over generations mankind started to question things: how did we get here? How do things happen? What is our place in the universe? Each culture through many generations developed explanations to those questions: religion. It is those explainations which get passed down and ingrained into a childs mind through parents and society. One thing that I always found disapointing about religion, and discussions of, is how it seems more likely to cause seperation and conflict between people instead of bringing people together.
I guess I would be termed as an Evangelical Protestant lol probably the ONLY one on here just about. My parents are conservative Christians and I am too, but they both know I'm gay and totally accept me. My dad is a little more accepting than my mom is. His first words when I told him I was gay were: "Son, I'm proud of you and I'm proud you're a gay man" lol, I consider myself very lucky.
G_Force saidDon't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Read your Bible instead of listening to all the bull crap coming from so many preachers today. My life is more in harmony with what the Bible says then most religious teachers today and that is no lie. So if we are going to get into heaven by how well we live a life of sainhoood, I got them all beat for sure. lol
Sorry, guys, but I'm going to beleieve the Bible over some preacher today. They ought to do what they preach first before preaching to others.
I don't just think I'm going to be heaven, but I know I am because Jesus says so. He says he died for me and I totally believe him and yes, I beleive that he himself will come and raise my body from the dead because of my faith and trust in him.
I am just wondering, on a personal note, would you be friends with a non-believer? I mean really friends without always telling him what a sinner and how he is going to hell bluh bluh bluh. Or would you view a non-believer as a threat and refuse to befriend him until he changed to your way of thinking? I ask this because I had what I thought were friends who were Jehovah Witnesses. I would play risk with them on weekend and even did a few bible studies and visted their Kingdom hall. Once they realized I was not going to adopt their beliefs they cut me off as a friend(they didn't know I was gay). Made me feel like the only reason they were friends with me was to convert me and they really didnt care much about me. Might sound odd but eventhough I am an atheist I enjoyed talking and hanging out with the JVs.Generally I find liberal chiristians have no issue with being friends with those of different faiths, but it seems more conservative christians will shun those who don't share their faith. Besides the whole "you are going to hell stuff" I generaly enjoy hanging out with people of faith and often find them to have a great sence of meaning/value in their lives.
I have lots of friends who believe differently than me, but those friends don't put me down for my Christian faith--they respect it. I will NEVER shun a person just because he has a different belief than me. However, I have had people who have shuned me because of my Christian beliefs. Jesus associated with people of different beliefs, races, cultures etc. and I am just like that. I am friendly and kind to everyone, even people with different beliefs, a different color skin and a different race. I see them all as people for whom Jesus died and loves and so I love them all, too.
My views about God were not really influenced by my being Gay. My view of Religion (man's created worhip of God), however, have been greatly influenced by me being gay.
I believe that "organized" religion is BIG business. The church is 4 walls and a person at the front that tries to DRIVE someone elses beliefs into your head and take your money at the same time.......that being said. I am a man of FAITH. I believe that there is something much bigger out there. I believe that faith is a very private and persona journey that each and everyone of us must take. Its not something that can be taught, but must be found. I wear a crucifix and believe my faith stems from my Roman Catholic upbringing, but I don't necessarily believe ALL of the teachings. I dunno.....its hard to explain my faith. Its deep down and is just there.........
Blackguy4you saidNo, let's first have the survery of how many gay guys believe in God or not! We can deal with santa clause and yr view of logical fallacies later
When you design your survey, what conclusion are you expecting to draw?
We are going to use your belief as you stated in an earlier post just reversed somewhat.
The goal is to prove that most gay guys don't believe in God and they do so because of their rationalization that God doesn't like them.
I can't speak for anyone by myself, but I didn't believe in God long before I ever know I was "gay" or that religion tends to teaches against homosexuality. The whole thing just seemed like a fairy tale much like Santa. My parents, as far as I recall, pushed any such things to me. My view is that mankind is at first born in a blank state as belief goes. As we got older and over generations mankind started to question things: how did we get here? How do things happen? What is our place in the universe? Each culture through many generations developed explanations to those questions: religion. It is those explainations which get passed down and ingrained into a childs mind through parents and society. One thing that I always found disapointing about religion, and discussions of, is how it seems more likely to cause seperation and conflict between people instead of bringing people together.
The blank slate idea, that we are born fully impressionable, is a joke. You can ask any parent that the second their child is born they see a personality, the feel that kid's presence separate from other children. There are some belief systems that claim the blank slate, some with original sin, and some that believe that we are born inherently whole and simply get attached to others.
Yes, some systems of belief are also systematic ways of looking at the world. The Buddhist system is designed to demonstrate, through your own experiential awareness, the ascribed truths that the Buddha spoke of. However, Buddhist philosophy has no evangelical push to preach and get others to believe likewise. Religious discussions, for those that are interested more in the basis, the grounding of another's faith rather than defending or their beliefs or challenging others, are beautiful discussions.
I have lots of friends who believe differently than me, but those friends don't put me down for my Christian faith--they respect it. I will NEVER shun a person just because he has a different belief than me. However, I have had people who have shuned me because of my Christian beliefs. Jesus associated with people of different beliefs, races, cultures etc. and I am just like that. I am friendly and kind to everyone, even people with different beliefs, a different color skin and a different race. I see them all as people for whom Jesus died and loves and so I love them all, too.
Glad to hear that Sadly, I've at times had atheist fundamentalist stages inwhich I marginized a person of faith - I am not perfect . Peace
BradySF said The blank slate idea, that we are born fully impressionable, is a joke. You can ask any parent that the second their child is born they see a personality, the feel that kid's presence separate from other children. There are some belief systems that claim the blank slate, some with original sin, and some that believe that we are born inherently whole and simply get attached to others.
Yes, some systems of belief are also systematic ways of looking at the world. The Buddhist system is designed to demonstrate, through your own experiential awareness, the ascribed truths that the Buddha spoke of. However, Buddhist philosophy has no evangelical push to preach and get others to believe likewise. Religious discussions, for those that are interested more in the basis, the grounding of another's faith rather than defending or their beliefs or challenging others, are beautiful discussions.
I wasn't aware I was giving the impression that I was saying that even our personality is a "blank slate" I was only refering to views of God and the supernatural. What I question is are Babies born with a belief in God.
BradySF saidThe blank slate idea, that we are born fully impressionable, is a joke. You can ask any parent that the second their child is born they see a personality, the feel that kid's presence separate from other children.
What does a child's unique personality have to do with a god or religion?
I've also observed the remarkably distinct personality of my pet dogs and cats. Cows too. None, that I can tell, had any relationship with God.
REMI saidI believe that "organized" religion is BIG business. The church is 4 walls and a person at the front that tries to DRIVE someone elses beliefs into your head and take your money at the same time.......that being said. I am a man of FAITH. I believe that there is something much bigger out there. I believe that faith is a very private and persona journey that each and everyone of us must take. Its not something that can be taught, but must be found. I wear a crucifix and believe my faith stems from my Roman Catholic upbringing, but I don't necessarily believe ALL of the teachings. I dunno.....its hard to explain my faith. Its deep down and is just there.........
"Faith is believing something you know ain't so." - Mark Twain
"why would primitive man see the sun and moon and believe they were gods? "
Because they had no means to see or even detect the kazillions of other stars and planets. They may or may not have questioned all the tiny little dots of light they saw at night, if they came out of their caves.
phemt saidMy views about God were not really influenced by my being Gay. My view of Religion (man's created worhip of God), however, have been greatly influenced by me being gay.
I'm pretty certain that if the only difference in my makeup was that I was straight, I'd hold exactly the same ideas I have about religion as I do now. I'm glad you make the distinction between the two. It's one thing to believe in a supernatural being, it's quite another to believe in religion. People come to believe more in their churches than they do the reasons the churches were built. Not much more than idol worship. One day they'll realize it's me they should be worshipping.
phemt said I wasn't aware I was giving the impression that I was saying that even our personality is a "blank slate" I was only refering to views of God and the supernatural. What I question is are Babies born with a belief in God.
The blank slate is a reference to personality, philosophy, and theology. It changes depending on what context it is spoken about, but for the theological discussion, you can think of it as original sin/corruption or original perfection/wholeness or even blankness. It is hard for me to conceptualize blankness because so much is inherently there to begin with. Our desire to understand, our vitality, our simple presence are tangibly there and don't seem blank at all. Most theological ideas go after this, for if we are born with original sin, then how do we live our lives and find redemption? If we are born whole and complete, then why do we suffer? Some theological ideas start with cosmology and work towards experiential knowing. I'm a fan of those--the baby and going onward--unfolding beliefs.
If people don't take advantage of gifts and receive it, it's nobody's fault but the person who refused to receive it. If I want to give a gift of $20 to someone, but he refuses it, then he is not going to get my $20. The same is true with God. If Gandi refuses to beleive that God gave heaven as a a gift and rejects it, then Ghandi should not expect to receive heaven when it is rejected. We are to live a life of value but OUR LIFE HAS VALUE ONLY BECAUSE OF GOD"S LOVE FOR US AND NOT BECAUSE OF OURSELF. Because I know that not even Ghandi always lived the perfect life. We all need forgiveness--there isn't anyone who lives a perfect life of sainthood--not even the POPE. LOL.
I am sorry but I just have to respond to your "not taking the $20" analogy. When you don't take that $20 God gets so pissed he ends taking that $20 to pay some gang members to follow you into the alley to beat the living shit out of you for not taking the $20 he offered you
BradySF said The blank slate idea, that we are born fully impressionable, is a joke. You can ask any parent that the second their child is born they see a personality, the feel that kid's presence separate from other children. There are some belief systems that claim the blank slate, some with original sin, and some that believe that we are born inherently whole and simply get attached to others.
Yes, some systems of belief are also systematic ways of looking at the world. The Buddhist system is designed to demonstrate, through your own experiential awareness, the ascribed truths that the Buddha spoke of. However, Buddhist philosophy has no evangelical push to preach and get others to believe likewise. Religious discussions, for those that are interested more in the basis, the grounding of another's faith rather than defending or their beliefs or challenging others, are beautiful discussions.
I wasn't aware I was giving the impression that I was saying that even our personality is a "blank slate" I was only refering to views of God and the supernatural. What I question is are Babies born with a belief in God.
It depends what you mean by a belief in God, If you simply mean belief in a higher power, I would say yes. But other beliefs are developed from experience and learned knowledge. My beliefs are definitely from the Bible, but most churches today have all kinds of teachings that conflict and don't agree with the Bible. I know that some people think that the Bible is all made up, but to me its message is too unified, There are so many different authors in the Bible and if it was all made up, its message wouldn't be so unified. To me, this "higher power" had a role in its development.
I was baptised as an infant and raised catholic,but I was not born catholic,I really had no say in the matter. Now I worship a golden cow with a face like Sandra Bernhard. Amazingly I get the same results as I did being catholic.
REMI saidI believe that "organized" religion is BIG business. The church is 4 walls and a person at the front that tries to DRIVE someone elses beliefs into your head and take your money at the same time.......that being said. I am a man of FAITH. I believe that there is something much bigger out there. I believe that faith is a very private and persona journey that each and everyone of us must take. Its not something that can be taught, but must be found. I wear a crucifix and believe my faith stems from my Roman Catholic upbringing, but I don't necessarily believe ALL of the teachings. I dunno.....its hard to explain my faith. Its deep down and is just there.........
I'm non-denominational and I don't believe in lots of things that organized religions purport to state are of God.
But there are some beliefs we do hold in common.
And like you I firmly believe that faith is a private thing to be worked out between you and God.
It isn't one just because you say so. If you have some proof of this, out with it. But this is like stamping your feet and holding your breath until you turn blue. It's not an argument, it's an assertion without any basis.
BradySF said The blank slate idea, that we are born fully impressionable, is a joke. You can ask any parent that the second their child is born they see a personality, the feel that kid's presence separate from other children. There are some belief systems that claim the blank slate, some with original sin, and some that believe that we are born inherently whole and simply get attached to others.
Yes, some systems of belief are also systematic ways of looking at the world. The Buddhist system is designed to demonstrate, through your own experiential awareness, the ascribed truths that the Buddha spoke of. However, Buddhist philosophy has no evangelical push to preach and get others to believe likewise. Religious discussions, for those that are interested more in the basis, the grounding of another's faith rather than defending or their beliefs or challenging others, are beautiful discussions.
I wasn't aware I was giving the impression that I was saying that even our personality is a "blank slate" I was only refering to views of God and the supernatural. What I question is are Babies born with a belief in God.
It depends what you mean by a belief in God, If you simply mean belief in a higher power, I would say yes. But other beliefs are developed from experience and learned knowledge. My beliefs are definitely from the Bible, but most churches today have all kinds of teachings that conflict and don't agree with the Bible. I know that some people think that the Bible is all made up, but to me its message is too unified, There are so many different authors in the Bible and if it was all made up, its message wouldn't be so unified. To me, this "higher power" had a role in its development.
The problem comes from the way churches are teaching the Bible. You have to admit, churches have changed today and not for the better. They have so many teachings that are relatively new and they repeatedly misinterpret the Bible. For example where the Catholic Church ever got the idea that Mary was different from other people and was holy, I will never know. Mary would have no reason to call Jesus her Savior and worship him as her Savior, if she were holy. If you are holy, you have an automatic ticket to heaven and you don't neerd anyone as your Savior.
It depends what you mean by a belief in God, If you simply mean belief in a higher power, I would say yes. But other beliefs are developed from experience and learned knowledge. My beliefs are definitely from the Bible, but most churches today have all kinds of teachings that conflict and don't agree with the Bible. I know that some people think that the Bible is all made up, but to me its message is too unified, There are so many different authors in the Bible and if it was all made up, its message wouldn't be so unified. To me, this "higher power" had a role in its development.
Caslon can you much more about the history of the Bible than I can. I was raised Independent Fundamental Baptist, so my knowledge of the Bible isn't as referenced as his, but I do tons about the intent and emotional nuances of what is in the Bible.
The concept of "higher" power is a funny one. Higher implies above, but also removed, and somehow better. There is a hierarchy in the usage of this term "higher power" that not all religions utilizes. For the sake of this discussion I'll say that I have an understanding of power, a daily practice, and a deep seated faith. My faith though is not based solely on a text, because a living tradition shapes and contours with the changing generations. For those that adhere to a set of scriptures and see the collection as a unified whole then I can see the treasure that those scriptures are. There, in writing, everything of value and merit to you for living in this world and developing a life that you want. More than a guidebook, and yet challenging and evocative.
Faith based on texts is a different kind of faith based in a relationship to a deity or a faith based in your own experiential awareness. Your faith could be grounded in all three, but mine isn't. My faith has a little of all three, but mostly the third.
REMI saidI believe that "organized" religion is BIG business. The church is 4 walls and a person at the front that tries to DRIVE someone elses beliefs into your head and take your money at the same time.......that being said. I am a man of FAITH. I believe that there is something much bigger out there. I believe that faith is a very private and persona journey that each and everyone of us must take. Its not something that can be taught, but must be found. I wear a crucifix and believe my faith stems from my Roman Catholic upbringing, but I don't necessarily believe ALL of the teachings. I dunno.....its hard to explain my faith. Its deep down and is just there.........
You are wise not to beleive everything the Catholic church teaches. The Catholic Church is not God. Much of what they teach is not supported by the Bible at all, even though they claim they teach the Bible.
G_Force said< The problem comes from the way churches are teaching the Bible. You have to admit, churches have changed today and not for the better. They have so many teachings that are relatively new and they repeatedly misinterpret the Bible. For example where the Catholic Church ever got the idea that Mary was different from other people and was holy, I will never know. Mary would have no reason to call Jesus her Savior and worship him as her Savior, if she were holy. If you are holy, you have an automatic ticket to heaven and you don't neerd anyone as your Savior.
The problem comes from the way churches are teaching the Bible. You have to admit, churches have changed today and not for the better. They have so many teachings that are relatively new and they repeatedly misinterpret the Bible. For example where the Catholic Church ever got the idea that Mary was different from other people and was holy, I will never know. Mary would have no reason to call Jesus her Savior and worship him as her Savior, if she were holy. If you are holy, you have an automatic ticket to heaven and you don't neerd anyone as your Savior.
I like to think we are all doing the best we can. Churches these days, and the pastors at the pulpit, are doing the best they can. The difficulty in churches utilizing texts is that the Bible was written with both metaphorical and literal meanings in a non English language. Coming to a concise understanding is fraught with difficulties for us English speakers (and probably equally difficult for those that speak Greek/Sumerian). I have a hard time translating Pali and Sanskrit, but I don't rely on literal interpretations of texts as the sole foundation of my faith. A literal understanding is still an interpretation (credited to Hans Gadamer).
Loren Eiseleay wrote that man is the cosmic orphan. He is the only creature in the universe who asks, "Why?" When we threw off the shackles of a belief in God, the answers that came back however were not exhilarating, but instead dark and terrible.
We thought that getting rid of God, would free us from all that represses us. Instead, we have learnt that in killing God, we have also killed ourselves. For if God does not exist - then life becomes absurd.
Blackguy4you saidWe thought that getting rid of God, would free us from all that represses us. Instead, we have learnt that in killing God, we have also killed ourselves. For if God does not exist - then life becomes absurd.
This is a tremendous fallacy. I went into atheism with full "knowledge" of what I was "losing". Fear of "killing God" kept me in it for awhile. But acknowledging that there may not be a God was the first step in realizing that the universe is way too big to be absurd.
The problem comes from the way churches are teaching the Bible. You have to admit, churches have changed today and not for the better. They have so many teachings that are relatively new and they repeatedly misinterpret the Bible. For example where the Catholic Church ever got the idea that Mary was different from other people and was holy, I will never know. Mary would have no reason to call Jesus her Savior and worship him as her Savior, if she were holy. If you are holy, you have an automatic ticket to heaven and you don't neerd anyone as your Savior.
Most likely they did it for money. I mean they've done quite a few things for money so why not that as well?
Blackguy4you saidWe thought that getting rid of God, would free us from all that represses us. Instead, we have learnt that in killing God, we have also killed ourselves. For if God does not exist - then life becomes absurd.
This is a tremendous fallacy. I went into atheism with full "knowledge" of what I was "losing". Fear of "killing God" kept me in it for awhile. But acknowledging that there may not be a God was the first step in realizing that the universe is way too big to be absurd.
why do you call everything a fallacy? just because you may not agree with it doesn't make it a fallacy.
Blackguy4you said...why do you call everything a fallacy? just because you may not agree with it doesn't make it a fallacy...
That is correct: not everything I disagree with IS a fallacy. However, in this case, you've made many of your arguments with fallacies. Stop doing that, and this will be a more productive debate.
Blackguy4you said...why do you call everything a fallacy? just because you may not agree with it doesn't make it a fallacy...
That is correct: not everything I disagree with IS a fallacy. However, in this case, you've made many of your arguments with fallacies. Stop doing that, and this will be a more productive debate.
Blackguy4you said...see there you go again - another fallacy
No, it's still the same fallacy. You have expressed the same fallacy in different posts in different ways.
Logical fallacies in and of themselves are not necessarily bad, if in fact, say, God does exist (I'm talking about the Begging the Question fallacy you keep repeating).
For instance, these two Begging the Question fallacies: An atheist regrets "killing" God. Atheists don't realize that life without God is absurd.
If God does exist, these fallacies, which assume their conclusion in their premise (God is killable, thus he exists; God provides meaning to life, thus he exists) are actually valid statements.
But what if there is no God? Then, the argument becomes absurd, see. That's why I must point it out. We can have a better debate if you can make your case without resorting to a logical fallacy.
Blackguy4you said...see there you go again - another fallacy
No, it's still the same fallacy. You have expressed the same fallacy in different posts in different ways.
Logical fallacies in and of themselves are not necessarily bad, if in fact, say, God does exist (I'm talking about the Begging the Question fallacy you keep repeating).
For instance, these two Begging the Question fallacies: An atheist regrets "killing" God. Atheists don't realize that life without God is absurd.
If God does exist, these fallacies, which assume their conclusion in their premise (God is killable, thus he exists; God provides meaning to life, thus he exists) are actually valid statements.
But what if there is no God? Then, the argument becomes absurd, see. That's why I must point it out. We can have a better debate if you can make your case without resorting to a logical fallacy.
Sartre and Camus understood that life without God is absurd. Sartre portrayed life in his play “No Exit” as hell—the final line of the play is tellingly the words of resignation, "Well, let's get on with it." Camus, too, saw life as absurd. At the end of his novel “The Stranger”, the hero discovers that the universe has no meaning and there is no God to give it one.
I believe that if there is no God, then not only man, but the very universe are doomed. It means then that life itself is absurd. It means that the life we have is without ultimate significance, value, or purpose. And you may not agree with this, but to call this a fallacy is well just fallacious!
What ultimate meaning can be given to our lives when you, I, and everyone pass out of existence? Does it even really matter whether we ever existed at all? I would say no- it wouldn’t make a difference – not without God.
Scientists claim that the universe started in the big bang about 13 billion years ago. Suppose the Big Bang had never occurred? Suppose the universe had never come into being? What ultimate difference would it make? None – since the universe is doomed to die anyway. In the end, it makes no difference whether the universe ever existed or not. Therefore, it is without ultimate significance.
The same would be true of the human race. Mankind is a doomed race in a dying universe. Because the human race will eventually cease to exist, it makes no ultimate difference whether it ever did exist. And this is the horror that you would believe in: that the same blind cosmic forces that vomited us up in the first place will eventually swallow us all again. Therein lies the absurdity.
Without God life is absurd as it becomes meaningless!
oh BTW, do you realize that you are starting your argument on the basis that God does not exist
While I'm starting mine on the basis that He does exist
Studying/reading up on lately: Philosophies from other old 'religions', including some philosophies from the Satanic Bible (and no, they don't worship the "devil" nor believe in the Devil - just to clear that up). But it does have some damn good interesting philosophies on human nature & gaining your own personal empowerment & confidence. A very interesting read.
G_Force saidIf I'm gay or bi , who in the fuck really cares? If someone thinks you go to hell for being gay, then I guess everyone else is going to be there, too, because does not the Bible say that ANY sin will condemn you to hell? I've never met a person yet who lives the way the Bible says we should live. Have you? If heaven depends on that, I know then that NO ONE will be there. I don't believe being gay or not being gay has anything to do with who goes to heaven. Heaven is a gift which Jesus earned for all sinners, including gays, and that is what I beleive because that is what God says in the Bible and I'll believe him any day over what anyone else says.
I think the reason so many gays take issue with religion is because it is so often used as a reason to repress gays. People have used the few passages in the Bible (and other holy books as well) as a justification for this oppression. I am willing to bet that there is a high correlation (even in this day) between how religious a family is (especially conservative) and their willingness to kick out a gay son/daughter out of their house.
Religion was also used to oppress black people in worse ways than it did/does to oppress gay people. How come black folks can still believe in the divine?
This is just an excuse that some gay people use.
because they (and others) are vastly undereducated?
G_Force saidIf I'm gay or bi , who in the fuck really cares? If someone thinks you go to hell for being gay, then I guess everyone else is going to be there, too, because does not the Bible say that ANY sin will condemn you to hell? I've never met a person yet who lives the way the Bible says we should live. Have you? If heaven depends on that, I know then that NO ONE will be there. I don't believe being gay or not being gay has anything to do with who goes to heaven. Heaven is a gift which Jesus earned for all sinners, including gays, and that is what I beleive because that is what God says in the Bible and I'll believe him any day over what anyone else says.
I think the reason so many gays take issue with religion is because it is so often used as a reason to repress gays. People have used the few passages in the Bible (and other holy books as well) as a justification for this oppression. I am willing to bet that there is a high correlation (even in this day) between how religious a family is (especially conservative) and their willingness to kick out a gay son/daughter out of their house.
Religion was also used to oppress black people in worse ways than it did/does to oppress gay people. How come black folks can still believe in the divine?
This is just an excuse that some gay people use.
because they (and others) are vastly undereducated?
Well I do think lots of gay people are under-educated when it comes to matters of God and religion to some extent. I'm not saying that religion has not perpetrated evil. Because it has. It just seems to me that little time is spent discovering God for themselves.
And I don’t buy into lots of the things of organized religion either. Fatih is a personal walk with God. Not a walk with any church!
Blackguy4you saidSartre and Camus understood that life without God is absurd...I believe that if there is no God, then not only man, but the very universe are doomed. It means then that life itself is absurd. It means that the life we have is without ultimate significance, value, or purpose. And you may not agree with this, but to call this a fallacy is well just fallacious!
Sartre and Camus are not the ultimate authority on what is meaningful or absurd. Sorry, but just because you agree with someone does not mean that I should.
This very question, am I a meaningless brick of carbon in a meaningless random universe, is the very question I asked myself. My response? If there is no God, how is it fruitful to contemplate meaninglessness?
I was you.
Understand that. I was you, twenty years ago. I've had twenty years to contemplate meaninglessness. And you know what? It hasn't been so bad. My meaningless life is keeping me quite happy and entertained. My fear of death is no more or no less than yours. My life has no less and no more meaning than yours.
The fallacy that you have espoused is that Something Must Be True, because Something NOT being true is too terrible to fathom. This is not an argument for the existence of God, it's an argument for the existence of human fear.
Early on, I reasoned (I guess better than Sartre) that fear (of absurdity or meaninglessness) wasn't sufficient evidence for insisting on God's existence. What I had to do was learn to overcome fear. Once the fear was gone (it took a decade, actually), I could look at the question of God or not from a rational standpoint, not an emotional one. Frankly, God hasn't been doing so well.
I was born baptist and at a young age I started to study religion because I had unanswered questions. After I started to really understand what I was reading I became a Pagan. Pantheist Polytheism. This also helped me accept myself as a homosexual. Been like this for quite some time.
Blackguy4you saidSartre and Camus understood that life without God is absurd...I believe that if there is no God, then not only man, but the very universe are doomed. It means then that life itself is absurd. It means that the life we have is without ultimate significance, value, or purpose. And you may not agree with this, but to call this a fallacy is well just fallacious!
Sartre and Camus are not the ultimate authority on what is meaningful or absurd. Sorry, but just because you agree with someone does not mean that I should.
This very question, am I a meaningless brick of carbon in a meaningless random universe, is the very question I asked myself. My response? If there is no God, how is it fruitful to contemplate meaninglessness?
I was you.
Understand that. I was you, twenty years ago. I've had twenty years to contemplate meaninglessness. And you know what? It hasn't been so bad. My meaningless life is keeping me quite happy and entertained. My fear of death is no more or no less than yours. My life has no less and no more meaning than yours.
Early on, I reasoned (I guess better than Sartre) that fear (of absurdity or meaninglessness) wasn't sufficient evidence for insisting on God's existence. What I had to do was learn to overcome fear. Once the fear was gone (it took a decade, actually), I could look at the question of God or not from a rational standpoint, not an emotional one. Frankly, God hasn't been doing so well.
I don't want you to agree with everyone - just with me. my ways are better and God's ways are best
How do you or I as a mere mortal expect to figure God out? Wouldn't we be God ourselves if we could do that?
Sartre and Camus understood that life without God is absurd. Sartre portrayed life in his play “No Exit” as hell—the final line of the play is tellingly the words of resignation, "Well, let's get on with it." Camus, too, saw life as absurd. At the end of his novel “The Stranger”, the hero discovers that the universe has no meaning and there is no God to give it one.
I believe that if there is no God, then not only man, but the very universe are doomed. It means then that life itself is absurd. It means that the life we have is without ultimate significance, value, or purpose. And you may not agree with this, but to call this a fallacy is well just fallacious!
What ultimate meaning can be given to our lives when you, I, and everyone pass out of existence? Does it even really matter whether we ever existed at all? I would say no- it wouldn’t make a difference – not without God.
Scientists claim that the universe started in the big bang about 13 billion years ago. Suppose the Big Bang had never occurred? Suppose the universe had never come into being? What ultimate difference would it make? None – since the universe is doomed to die anyway. In the end, it makes no difference whether the universe ever existed or not. Therefore, it is without ultimate significance.
The same would be true of the human race. Mankind is a doomed race in a dying universe. Because the human race will eventually cease to exist, it makes no ultimate difference whether it ever did exist. And this is the horror that you would believe in: that the same blind cosmic forces that vomited us up in the first place will eventually swallow us all again. Therein lies the absurdity.
Without God life is absurd as it becomes meaningless!
Ugh.
1. I'd like to argue briefly that meaning is a mental construct. The behavior of the observable universe is by and large indifferent to the meaning we perceive in it. Despite vastly different interpretations of meaning between different human beings, we still seem to be living in the same physical world.
If this is the case, it is incoherent to discuss meaning outside the context of a mind. Since the only minds we know to exist are our own, and animals, I invite you to be more specific as to whose meaning, exactly, you are talking about.
2. If meaning is something minds construct, you're free to imbue your life with whatever meaning you like (sort of--there do seem to be biological guidelines as for what matters to humans). Calling humanity's activities meaningless or absurd (are these interchangeable for you? I'm not up on my existentialism) is inconsistent with a plurality of non-trivial meaning systems.
3. Claiming the activities of the human race leave no trace after extinction is stupid. Many traces of our activity will remain, from radio signals to space probes to structures on the earth and other planets. Sure, space is big, but arguing there is *no* consequence to our actions is inaccurate. Aliens would probably find our radio transmissions pretty meaningful, actually; and we could influence their (hypothetical) development that way. Everything has echoes.
I was born and raised Roman Catholic, attended a Jesuit school system until 2nd year of high school (strict motherf***ers). I was transferred to a Salesian school system (what a NICE change). For those who aren't familiar with Jesuits, their system is punitive, and questioning is severely discouraged. Salesians were more forgiving and encouraged you to think for yourself. I remember being in class and the Salesian priest invited us to stand and pray, and also said that no one is forced to join, and that if you'd rather sit quietly, he happily encouraged it.
I eventually turned away from religion altogether, went back to Christianity, then investigated Wiccan when i was with my previous boyfriend.
And now i'm currently attending sunday services at an inclusive Episcopalian church. Also, while i believe there is some sort of higher power, there is no "correct" or "one true" ideology/belief system. I do still try to incorporate Wiccan and Buddhist principles alongside Christian beliefs (NOT the fundamental crazy-ass bible thumping shit)
I'm working on including the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Who wouldn't love to be blessed by the noodley appendage?
Blackguy4you saidSartre and Camus understood that life without God is absurd...I believe that if there is no God, then not only man, but the very universe are doomed. It means then that life itself is absurd. It means that the life we have is without ultimate significance, value, or purpose. And you may not agree with this, but to call this a fallacy is well just fallacious!
Sartre and Camus are not the ultimate authority on what is meaningful or absurd. Sorry, but just because you agree with someone does not mean that I should.
This very question, am I a meaningless brick of carbon in a meaningless random universe, is the very question I asked myself. My response? If there is no God, how is it fruitful to contemplate meaninglessness?
I was you.
Understand that. I was you, twenty years ago. I've had twenty years to contemplate meaninglessness. And you know what? It hasn't been so bad. My meaningless life is keeping me quite happy and entertained. My fear of death is no more or no less than yours. My life has no less and no more meaning than yours.
Early on, I reasoned (I guess better than Sartre) that fear (of absurdity or meaninglessness) wasn't sufficient evidence for insisting on God's existence. What I had to do was learn to overcome fear. Once the fear was gone (it took a decade, actually), I could look at the question of God or not from a rational standpoint, not an emotional one. Frankly, God hasn't been doing so well.
I don't want you to agree with everyone - just with me. my ways are better and God's ways are best
How do you or I as a mere mortal expect to figure God out? Wouldn't we be God ourselves if we could do that?
Yes, religious folks always claim that god is so different from us (he has to be, we are finite, he is infinite, outside the universe, etc) that he can not be understood. This is always the answer to things people dont understand about god - he is inexplicable to us mere mortals! And yet you do claim to know a lot about him and what he likes, favours, who he wants to save, that he listens to your prayers, etc.
Blackguy4you saidHow do you or I as a mere mortal expect to figure God out? Wouldn't we be God ourselves if we could do that?
If there is a God, figuring him out would be blasphemy. If there is no God, figuring him out is absurd, and not godly at all.
Again, not an argument, just the same fallacy. In your conclusion, I would have to have the powers of a god to figure God out. This assumes God exists in your premise. This has not advanced your argument one inch, since you keep saying the same thing a dozen different ways.
I could actually agree with you, but you must know by now that I believe you are either unreasonable or are just trying to be cute.
Organized religions have done a lot of negative things, but detractors tend to overlook the positive things they do in millions of people's daily lives over millenia.
Personally my attitude is that, religions were invented to explain the world, including social interactions, relationships between civilizations, the relationships between man and the cosmos, and the relationship between mind and matter. Their stories were contrived and not really convincing in the modern scientific age. However, in order to survive and thrive humanity need to take the right attitudes toward each other, toward other civilizations, toward the cosmos (the planet primarily), and toward the mind. There is strength in faith and communion with other humans, to be in touch with one's spiritual awareness, and to practice compassion, honesty, and respect. These are things that science cannot explain nor offer advice on, but they're important to a sucessful civilization. Without believing the stories of traditional religions, well-educated science-minded modern humans can still learn much from thousands of years of experimentation with society, history, and the mind, recorded by the traditions of organized religions.
Blackguy4you saidSartre and Camus understood that life without God is absurd...I believe that if there is no God, then not only man, but the very universe are doomed. It means then that life itself is absurd. It means that the life we have is without ultimate significance, value, or purpose. And you may not agree with this, but to call this a fallacy is well just fallacious!
Sartre and Camus are not the ultimate authority on what is meaningful or absurd. Sorry, but just because you agree with someone does not mean that I should.
This very question, am I a meaningless brick of carbon in a meaningless random universe, is the very question I asked myself. My response? If there is no God, how is it fruitful to contemplate meaninglessness?
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Yes, religious folks always claim that god is so different from us (he has to be, we are finite, he is infinite, outside the universe, etc) that he can not be understood. This is always the answer to things people dont understand about god - he is inexplicable to us mere mortals! And yet you do claim to know a lot about him and what he likes, favours, who he wants to save, that he listens to your prayers, etc.
You can believe that random chance created this amazing universe that we currently inhabit. You can choose to believe that these amazing bodies that we inhabit came about by an infinity of random occurences. My imagination doesn't stretch that far. I believe that the universe is intelligently designed. This being the case the designer desires us to know him. How could he not? Now that being the case He does interact with us. Can I ever know him fully -no! Can I understand some of the things he does - no! Do I agreee with some of the things- no! For me to do so I would have to have perfect knowledge. If I can't even figure out how to get one hair on my head to grow, how do you expect me to figure out someone who created all of reality
Doesn't mean I'm going to give up and stop trying to learn more about him though. Yes somethings must be left in the realm of faith. But so what? Faith and belief in the creator of all things seems well founded
Which is, of course, why, even after all that observation and time, that religion ends up being what it has always been and will always be: BULLSHIT.
One has to only look back at religion and all of its many false beliefs, like the world is flat, God is coming in the year 2000, and very long list of nonsense to understand the CRAP that it is. The longer you look at it, the more compelling the argument against it. It's just plain ass non-sense in the n'th degree.
No clear-thinking mind can conclude otherwise. This is a conclusion that any rational individual would come to under any level of scrutiny of the various false belief systems. At the end of day ${religion} ends up being hog poo.
high power, higher shmower, devine, we are chosen by god..... how do you know it's not just chaos or a failed science experiment or whatever. life on earth gets wiped out every 62 million years or so. humans are just a fluke. there is a lot more certainty that we will learn how to extend life indefinitely in the next 1000 years or less, than the second coming of "anything".
what we believe in or not doesn't have any bearing on anything. enjoy the ride and don't burden yourself with things you will never be able to understand. but if THAT's the thing that gives you strength, then by all means, do that. ther eis nothing rational about belief of any kind, even the kind that presupposes to "know" something. we are too small and stupid of a species yet to even consider going there.
now, losing the unnecessary poundage (barring any approaching famine), is the belief system i am fully behind.
Blackguy4you saidSartre and Camus understood that life without God is absurd...I believe that if there is no God, then not only man, but the very universe are doomed. It means then that life itself is absurd. It means that the life we have is without ultimate significance, value, or purpose. And you may not agree with this, but to call this a fallacy is well just fallacious!
Sartre and Camus are not the ultimate authority on what is meaningful or absurd. Sorry, but just because you agree with someone does not mean that I should.
This very question, am I a meaningless brick of carbon in a meaningless random universe, is the very question I asked myself. My response? If there is no God, how is it fruitful to contemplate meaninglessness?
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Yes, religious folks always claim that god is so different from us (he has to be, we are finite, he is infinite, outside the universe, etc) that he can not be understood. This is always the answer to things people dont understand about god - he is inexplicable to us mere mortals! And yet you do claim to know a lot about him and what he likes, favours, who he wants to save, that he listens to your prayers, etc.
You can believe that random chance created this amazing universe that we currently inhabit. You can choose to believe that these amazing bodies that we inhabit came about by an infinity of random occurences. My imagination doesn't stretch that far. I believe that the universe is intelligently designed. This being the case the designer desires us to know him. How could he not? Now that being the case He does interact with us. Can I ever know him fully -no! Can I understand some of the things he does - no! Do I agreee with some of the things- no! For me to do so I would have to have perfect knowledge. If I can't even figure out how to get one hair on my head to grow, how do you expect me to figure out someone who created all of reality
Doesn't mean I'm going to give up and stop trying to learn more about him though. Yes somethings must be left in the realm of faith. But so what? Faith and belief in the creator of all things seems well founded
Holy huge strawman. I have never claimed that everything is just a result of randomness. Philosophy 101, learn to argue.
chuckystud saidWhich is, of course, why, even after all that observation and time, that religion ends up being what it has always been and will always be: BULLSHIT.
One has to only look back at religion and all of its many false beliefs, like the world is flat, God is coming in the year 2000, and very long list of nonsense to understand the CRAP that it is. The longer you look at it, the more compelling the argument against it. It's just plain ass non-sense in the n'th degree.
No clear-thinking mind can conclude otherwise. This is a conclusion that any rational individual would come to under any level of scrutiny of the various false belief systems. At the end of day ${religion} ends up being hog poo.
"You can choose to believe that these amazing bodies that we inhabit came about by an infinity of random occurences. My imagination doesn't stretch that far."
It's not random. The fact that some combinations are energetically favorable makes the entire process, from nucleosynthesis to solar system formation to living organisms, entirely probable. All it takes is enough time and matter; we've got plenty of both.
There's an excellent book about thermodynamics called "The 2nd Law", by Atkins, that has an excellent layperson's argument for this. When you get to the domain of critters you need to turn to synthetic evolution, but that's also a pretty solid theory at this point.
Blackguy4you saidHow do you or I as a mere mortal expect to figure God out? Wouldn't we be God ourselves if we could do that?
If there is a God, figuring him out would be blasphemy. If there is no God, figuring him out is absurd, and not godly at all.
Again, not an argument, just the same fallacy. In your conclusion, I would have to have the powers of a god to figure God out. This assumes God exists in your premise. This has not advanced your argument one inch, since you keep saying the same thing a dozen different ways.
I could actually agree with you, but you must know by now that I believe you are either unreasonable or are just trying to be cute.
it is interesting that my arguments are based on the premise that God exists - you see that as a fallacy
yours are based on the premise that God doesn't exist and you do not see that as a fallacy
why is that?
i'm a very reasonable and cute guy- admittedly this could be fallacy as well, though
McGay saidSeems to me that if god can carve words into stone tablets, part a sea, raise the dead, etc. that he didn't need for men to do his work. I can't believe in a god who needs ghostwriters.
I was talking about the Holy Men and the Apostiles. They have connection with God. That is why I say, "The Bible is written by humans with the divine inspiration of the Holy Spirit." Holy Spirit is part of the Holy Trinity and the Holy Trinity is God.
You have to have faith in you to believe that. God can do whatever he want. Who wrote the first five books of the Bible?
onethirtyseven said"You can choose to believe that these amazing bodies that we inhabit came about by an infinity of random occurences. My imagination doesn't stretch that far."
It's not random. The fact that some combinations are energetically favorable makes the entire process, from nucleosynthesis to solar system formation to living organisms, entirely probable. All it takes is enough time and matter; we've got plenty of both.
There's an excellent book about thermodynamics called "The 2nd Law", by Atkins, that has an excellent layperson's argument for this. When you get to the domain of critters you need to turn to synthetic evolution, but that's also a pretty solid theory at this point.
you have got to be joking- do you have any idea of the probabilty of random occurrences happening just so, needed to create a viable universe for human beings to live in and our human body as well?
Blackguy4you saidHow do you or I as a mere mortal expect to figure God out? Wouldn't we be God ourselves if we could do that?
If there is a God, figuring him out would be blasphemy. If there is no God, figuring him out is absurd, and not godly at all.
Again, not an argument, just the same fallacy. In your conclusion, I would have to have the powers of a god to figure God out. This assumes God exists in your premise. This has not advanced your argument one inch, since you keep saying the same thing a dozen different ways.
I could actually agree with you, but you must know by now that I believe you are either unreasonable or are just trying to be cute.
it is interesting that my arguments are based on the premise that God exists - you see that as a fallacy
yours are based on the premise that God doesn't exist and you do not see that as a fallacy
why is that?
i'm a very reasonable and cute guy- admittedly this could be fallacy as well, though
The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. If you want to prove a god exists you can not assume that god exists in the premise.
Example: How do you know god is true? Because the Bible says so. How do you the Bible is true? Becuase it is the word of God.
That is an example of logical fallcy, it is called begging the question, or circular reasoning, or assuming the conclusion in your premise.
Blackguy4you saidHow do you or I as a mere mortal expect to figure God out? Wouldn't we be God ourselves if we could do that?
If there is a God, figuring him out would be blasphemy. If there is no God, figuring him out is absurd, and not godly at all.
Again, not an argument, just the same fallacy. In your conclusion, I would have to have the powers of a god to figure God out. This assumes God exists in your premise. This has not advanced your argument one inch, since you keep saying the same thing a dozen different ways.
I could actually agree with you, but you must know by now that I believe you are either unreasonable or are just trying to be cute.
Understanding the totality of the creator's purpose will always remain beyond human ability. we cannot realistically accomplish such a task. Why is this a stumbling block? Seems to me to be a self evident truth.
Wasn't it Einstein who said that the most incomprehensible thing about the univere is that it is incomprehensible? hmmmmmm or was it Hawkings? well one of them said it anyhow
But the bible does shed light on God's purpose for the universe.
If you need a God to explain things to you and you can't get thru life without praying to the man upstairs who am I to say ... You're crazy
But when you give time and money to the very same organizations and people who scar and maim others physically AND mentally this is where the harm of organized religion comes in
and one less person who gives money to these bastards is fantastic
Something I've noticed about humans (others have noticed too) is that we have a very limited capacity for understanding Really Large Numbers. Our blindness to that tends to make us see patterns where none exist.
Also, cosmonogists do not make claims as to the origin of the universe. Some, in fact, believe that it may have a creator after all. However, their search is not for a creator, their search is for a cause, creator or not. The difficult work of uncovering evidence and creating experiments that can offer greater explanations continues unabated because they are not satisfied with the answer that the universe required a creator.
This is not an argument for or against the existence of a creator god. However, it does demonstrate how irrelevant God is to the research.
Blackguy4you said you have got to be joking- do you have any idea of the probabilty of random occurrences happening just so, needed to create a viable universe for human beings to live in and our human body as well?
Oh, dear. This is precisely the line of 'thinking' behind Intelligent Design.
And btw, re: Sartre and Camus, you've misread them. Yes, they concluded that life in essence is absurd. But this didn't lead these committed atheists to God. What it did was make them shrug gallically and say "Life is absurd? Sacre bleu, so it is absurd. What can one do?"
mickeytopogigio said Something I've noticed about humans (others have noticed too) is that we have a very limited capacity for understanding Really Large Numbers
Interesting, because we also have a big problem with Really Small Numbers, too.
I was born in Berkley, California to religious parents (Baptist). Ever since I was a little kid, I was into sports, and like any other little boy, I hated going to Sunday Mass. My parents were pretty devot, and even worse my dad was an ex-football player from his High School years, so he wasn't only a firm believer, he was also very old school. Point is when I was in Junior High, I started having "feelings" for the guys in my J.H. Football team, and I asked my dad. He replied they were "terrible sinners who are lost within themselves. a bunch of faggot queers who effeminize America". Obviously, I felt dirty and sinful. Church didn't help either. During High School though I wondered why was it my dad didn't question the fact that I was pretty much a womanizer (lol), and it occured to me: religion tends to turn the other cheek when it doesn't spark something that it's against (no one complains about cheaters, but they raise hell about gays and lesbians). I started fooling around some jocks in my school, and I even had a clandestine relationship with one. Even though I've had sex with dozens of women, it was with my ex bf that I truly felt connected, I felt love, warmth, and at that moment I told him I didn't care, that he was the first person I ever loved. Sadly we went to different colleges (he went to NYU, I went to UM). I then realized how can God see this as a bad thing, making love to someone I LOVE while there were straight people out there cheating on eachother. I talked to my parents about it (they weren't okay with it...but were glad I was "man enough" to tell them), and I asked my Pastor about homosexuality. Suprisingly, the Pastor I know in Miami is actually pretty tolerant, and told me that "God loves all his children, and anyone who doesn't agree aren't reading the whole book. They're just cherry-picking different contexts to benefit their argument." It was at that moment I realized, that different religions have different opinions on this issue, and frankly...not only for homosexuality, but women's rights, rituals, as well as philosophy....it's all crap. It just depends on the person to truly make that crap believable in their own mind. I can honestly say I believe in a God, but he certainly lets me eat meat, love guys, by monogamous, and anything else that contradicts crazy religions
Blackguy4you said...Seems to me to be a self evident truth...
But the bible does shed light on God's purpose for the universe.
If such a thing were self-evident, why did God bother to send prophets, Moses, Jesus and all those fricken plagues...according to the bible? Seems like God didn't think it was all that self-evident, otherwise he wouldn't have spent so much capital on his ad campaign.
You will do better quoting Sartre. Quoting the bible is going to get your tail kicked.
you have got to be joking- do you have any idea of the probabilty of random occurrences happening just so, needed to create a viable universe for human beings to live in and our human body as well?
Read the bloody comment again. It's not random. Energetically favorable low-entropy configurations will arise out of disordered systems, so long as they're not closed. The earth is not a closed system; it's free to radiate energy to space. Hence, we are free to have decreasing local entropy.
As for where the universe comes from, I think we can all agree that's an open question--but you'll find out a lot more about the early universe from astronomy than prayer.
Blackguy4you saidSartre and Camus understood that life without God is absurd...I believe that if there is no God, then not only man, but the very universe are doomed. It means then that life itself is absurd. It means that the life we have is without ultimate significance, value, or purpose. And you may not agree with this, but to call this a fallacy is well just fallacious!
Sartre and Camus are not the ultimate authority on what is meaningful or absurd. Sorry, but just because you agree with someone does not mean that I should.
This very question, am I a meaningless brick of carbon in a meaningless random universe, is the very question I asked myself. My response? If there is no God, how is it fruitful to contemplate meaninglessness?
.
?
Yes, religious folks always claim that god is so different from us (he has to be, we are finite, he is infinite, outside the universe, etc) that he can not be understood. This is always the answer to things people dont understand about god - he is inexplicable to us mere mortals! And yet you do claim to know a lot about him and what he likes, favours, who he wants to save, that he listens to your prayers, etc.
You can believe that random chance created this amazing universe that we currently inhabit. You can choose to believe that these amazing bodies that we inhabit came about by an infinity of random occurences. My imagination doesn't stretch that far. I believe that the universe is intelligently designed. This being the case the designer desires us to know him. How could he not? Now that being the case He does interact with us. Can I ever know him fully -no! Can I understand some of the things he does - no! Do I agreee with some of the things- no! For me to do so I would have to have perfect knowledge. If I can't even figure out how to get one hair on my head to grow, how do you expect me to figure out someone who created all of reality
Doesn't mean I'm going to give up and stop trying to learn more about him though. Yes somethings must be left in the realm of faith. But so what? Faith and belief in the creator of all things seems well founded
Holy huge strawman. I have never claimed that everything is just a result of randomness. Philosophy 101, learn to argue.
See here's a perfect example of how I know God exists!
No you didn't talk about randomness explicitly - I did work it into my comments to indicate why it would be impossible for us to fully understand the creator. I use straw men you use red herrings
onethirtyseven saidAs for where the universe comes from, I think we can all agree that's an open question--but you'll find out a lot more about the early universe from astronomy than prayer.
I like how you said that.
Please insert that paragraph into my earlier posts and ignore the rest.
carabin saidhigh power, higher shmower, devine, we are chosen by god..... how do you know it's not just chaos or a failed science experiment or whatever. life on earth gets wiped out every 62 million years or so. humans are just a fluke. there is a lot more certainty that we will learn how to extend life indefinitely in the next 1000 years or less, than the second coming of "anything".
what we believe in or not doesn't have any bearing on anything. enjoy the ride and don't burden yourself with things you will never be able to understand. but if THAT's the thing that gives you strength, then by all means, do that. ther eis nothing rational about belief of any kind, even the kind that presupposes to "know" something. we are too small and stupid of a species yet to even consider going there.
now, losing the unnecessary poundage (barring any approaching famine), is the belief system i am fully behind.
well i will grant that in my judgement some people do act like failed experiments - but i don't have perfect knowledge ... so i'll have to hope for the best.
i don't believe we will be around 1000 years from now, but it will be interesting to see what we make of ourselves if we are.
Only in Christ is there true liberty and freedom. I enjoin you to try him and you'll realize what I'm talking about.
MtndudeSF saidOrganized religions have done a lot of negative things, but detractors tend to overlook the positive things they do in millions of people's daily lives over millenia.
Personally my attitude is that, religions were invented to explain the world, including social interactions, relationships between civilizations, the relationships between man and the cosmos, and the relationship between mind and matter. Their stories were contrived and not really convincing in the modern scientific age. However, in order to survive and thrive humanity need to take the right attitudes toward each other, toward other civilizations, toward the cosmos (the planet primarily), and toward the mind. There is strength in faith and communion with other humans, to be in touch with one's spiritual awareness, and to practice compassion, honesty, and respect. These are things that science cannot explain nor offer advice on, but they're important to a sucessful civilization. Without believing the stories of traditional religions, well-educated science-minded modern humans can still learn much from thousands of years of experimentation with society, history, and the mind, recorded by the traditions of organized religions.
Totally agree with you. Religion can still serve a purpose, but it needs to change/update with the times.
Blackguy4you saidHow do you or I as a mere mortal expect to figure God out? Wouldn't we be God ourselves if we could do that?
If there is a God, figuring him out would be blasphemy. If there is no God, figuring him out is absurd, and not godly at all.
Again, not an argument, just the same fallacy. In your conclusion, I would have to have the powers of a god to figure God out. This assumes God exists in your premise. This has not advanced your argument one inch, since you keep saying the same thing a dozen different ways.
I could actually agree with you, but you must know by now that I believe you are either unreasonable or are just trying to be cute.
it is interesting that my arguments are based on the premise that God exists - you see that as a fallacy
yours are based on the premise that God doesn't exist and you do not see that as a fallacy
why is that?
i'm a very reasonable and cute guy- admittedly this could be fallacy as well, though
The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. If you want to prove a god exists you can not assume that god exists in the premise.
Example: How do you know god is true? Because the Bible says so. How do you the Bible is true? Becuase it is the word of God.
That is an example of logical fallcy, it is called begging the question, or circular reasoning, or assuming the conclusion in your premise.
Actually that's not so at all. The burden of proof is on you to prove that this isn't so. Surely you don't think that absence of proof equals proof of absence? This btw - is called the fallacy of lack of imagination
I was raised in the United Church of Christ, which is about as liberal generic protestant as you can get while still being a monotheistic religion. (Standard joke: UCC really stands for "Unitarians Considering Christ"). Pastors of both sexes, married to non-clergy, openly gay couples in the church, religious leaders who teach evolution as the means of creation and that the whole bible is parable and shouldn't be taken literally anyway...and it still didn't take.
I began running into the logical inconsistencies of divine justice, mercy, and goodness coupled with the reality of the world; the conflict between an ultimate plan and the notion of free will; the responsibility of self for one's actions versus the concept of original sin; the inability for omnipotence to truly be all-encompassing; and the logical futility of prayer in the face of omniscience around the age of 6. (Most kids drive their parents crazy with "Why?" I did with "How?") I had a lot of very long conversations with one of my pastors -- a woman for whom I have a very deep respect, and genuinely wish that most "religious" folks took after her -- about faith, which led to her telling me that as best as she understood faith just wasn't right for everyone, and that was OK. I wasn't the sort of person who would ever honestly believe in something which couldn't be empirically tested, and that it was more important that I be honest with myself and try to be the best person I could be, as best as I understood it, than to try to act how I thought others would want me to. And that if that wasn't good enough for someone else, that was their problem, not mine.
These days, I'm agnostic. I don't agree that atheism is lack of belief in a deity. To me, being an atheist means that you're certain that there's no deity. The opposite of faith isn't atheism; it's agnosticism. I certainly see an atheistic universe as more likely than a theistic one, and I treat it as the appropriate null hypothesis, but I lack the core certainty needed to be an atheist--and I'm glad I do, as I really do oppose the idea of faith being an inherently good thing, and faith in the lack of something is faith nonetheless.
Born Roman Catholic with French and Croatian parents. Went to Catholic schools for part of grammar school here in the US - Chicago and Detroit. The ceremonies were great theater, but I was always in trouble and down to the office for talking-to/talking-down-to..."you're going to burn in hell!" Just never really bought into their program. Have lived my life as a humanist. I do deep down think there is something "out there" but bigger and more complex than we can imagine. Nothing like the fairy tale "God" bull that religions sell....sell, sell, sell...it's all about the money with organized religion.
Am amazed at the number of responses to this thread!
Blackguy4you said you have got to be joking- do you have any idea of the probabilty of random occurrences happening just so, needed to create a viable universe for human beings to live in and our human body as well?
Oh, dear. This is precisely the line of 'thinking' behind Intelligent Design.
And btw, re: Sartre and Camus, you've misread them. Yes, they concluded that life in essence is absurd. But this didn't lead these committed atheists to God. What it did was make them shrug gallically and say "Life is absurd? Sacre bleu, so it is absurd. What can one do?"
Where did I say that Satre and Camus were led to God? I simple quoted what they said. Did I quote them incorrectly?
But I will say though that he has done more than any other atheist to drive people to God. What Satre was successful in doing was to show people that the only way to have a happy life is either to make up some purpose for it, or by not carrying their view to the logical end. Such an unsatisfactory view of life drove lots of people to God. Job well done Satre!
See the will of God will be done, no matter what. You might as well just give up
And what is the issue with intelligent design? it is more rational and takes less to believe than that an imponderable number of random occurrences created reality.
"And what is the issue with intelligent design? it is more rational and takes less to believe than that an imponderable number of random occurrences created reality."
I think you misunderstand parsimony. Minimization of causes or entities, however you like to phrase it, does not literally mean "fewer *things*" in one's ontology. Sure, there is only one god required for intelligent design, and there are many interacting parts to a theory like synthetic evolution. However, intelligent design requires a creator which acts in many ways--the complexity of every animal is not eliminated; merely moved into the creator. Hence the complexity of the overall model remains huge; we have a burgeoning creator which is far more complex than the synthetic evolution model.
Given that both adequately explain the evidence, AND the rather significant problem that ID fails the falsifiability test, ID is considered a poor theory.
Oh, and ID has less predictive power. Makes it much less useful for actually getting stuff done.
Oh, and complete ID is directly contradicted by experimental evidence. We can observe speciation in nature and the lab.
Blackguy4you said And what is the issue with intelligent design? it is more rational and takes less to believe than that an imponderable number of random occurrences created reality.
Because it is based on pseudo-science? Because its claims have been repeatedly debunked? Because it's fundamentalism under another name? Because it's hogwash?
Blackguy4you said...Seems to me to be a self evident truth...
But the bible does shed light on God's purpose for the universe.
If such a thing were self-evident, why did God bother to send prophets, Moses, Jesus and all those fricken plagues...according to the bible? Seems like God didn't think it was all that self-evident, otherwise he wouldn't have spent so much capital on his ad campaign.
You will do better quoting Sartre. Quoting the bible is going to get your tail kicked.
Oh that's simple he sent those people because humans - have it seems an infinite capacity to be hard of hearing and stupid. He is a long suffering and loving God who does everything possible to ensure we get the message, tis true. But there are times when He's just got to say enough is enough!
Blackguy4you said And what is the issue with intelligent design? it is more rational and takes less to believe than that an imponderable number of random occurrences created reality.
Because it is based on pseudo-science? Because its claims have been repeatedly debunked? Because it's fundamentalism under another name? Because it's hogwash?
You choose.
I choose the following: It has God as the creator - that's good enough for me. Because it makes better sense Because until we can explain how out of nothing came something - intelligent design proves to be more logical. Debunked? ha as if- talk about fallacies!!!! Anything can be debunked if you start with the conclusion you want to attain. Proverbs, John, Timothy and Hebrews to name a few speak about God creating the universe. Science is just now catching up to this fact.
I think I'll stick with God creating the universe. To believe otherwise - well that's too irrational for me.
[quote][cite]MSUBioNerd said[/cite]I was raised in the United Church of Christ, which is about as liberal generic protestant as you can get while still being a monotheistic religion. (Standard joke: UCC really stands for "Unitarians Considering Christ"). Pastors of both sexes, married to non-clergy, openly gay couples in the church, religious leaders who teach evolution as the means of creation and that the whole bible is parable and shouldn't be taken literally anyway...and it still didn't take.
Hay I am UU I've heard that joke also Did you know that UU and UCC share OWL (Our whole lives- sexual education program)? I would love seeing more UU-UCC join partnership on stuff like the "tents of Hope".
MSUBioNerd saidThese days, I'm agnostic. I don't agree that atheism is lack of belief in a deity. To me, being an atheist means that you're certain that there's no deity. The opposite of faith isn't atheism; it's agnosticism. I certainly see an atheistic universe as more likely than a theistic one, and I treat it as the appropriate null hypothesis, but I lack the core certainty needed to be an atheist--and I'm glad I do, as I really do oppose the idea of faith being an inherently good thing, and faith in the lack of something is faith nonetheless.
I think an atheist needn't be someone who chooses to disbelieve (thus invoking the Faith card). Babies, cats, trees and amnesiacs can all be absolute atheists. Perhaps agnosticism is the consequence of knowledge, or measurement. Sort of like the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle for philosophy; they were innocent atheists until someone interfered.
carabin saidhigh power, higher shmower, devine, we are chosen by god..... how do you know it's not just chaos or a failed science experiment or whatever. life on earth gets wiped out every 62 million years or so. humans are just a fluke. there is a lot more certainty that we will learn how to extend life indefinitely in the next 1000 years or less, than the second coming of "anything".
what we believe in or not doesn't have any bearing on anything. enjoy the ride and don't burden yourself with things you will never be able to understand. but if THAT's the thing that gives you strength, then by all means, do that. ther eis nothing rational about belief of any kind, even the kind that presupposes to "know" something. we are too small and stupid of a species yet to even consider going there.
now, losing the unnecessary poundage (barring any approaching famine), is the belief system i am fully behind.
well i will grant that in my judgement some people do act like failed experiments - but i don't have perfect knowledge ... so i'll have to hope for the best.
i don't believe we will be around 1000 years from now, but it will be interesting to see what we make of ourselves if we are.
Only in Christ is there true liberty and freedom. I enjoin you to try him and you'll realize what I'm talking about.
He's amazing!
you are a fanatic. and fanatics don't listen to reason. case closed.
I am a pagan. I was Raised Seventh Day Adventist, but the church I went to was so closed minded and bitter that I quit going as soon as I could. I believe that there is a universal source of all that is. That source appears to different people in different ways. For me it is a God and Goddess, and numerous Angels as well. I am also a spiritual seeker. I believe that the "God" experience comes from within, an unlocking of humanities fullest potential. I think that Quantum Physics(from my minor knowledge of it) points to this inner potential. Kind of like the observer effect of placebos: you want something to happen and it does, mind over matter. I just prefer to use the God and Goddess as my focal points. There's my views
Quick note regarding quantum stuff (it's my field of study). A lot of people seem to think that quantum mechanics corroborates or provides a mechanism for spiritual beliefs. This is probably not true.
There is not (by definition) any connection to gods or other supernatural things. Nor is your consciousness entangled in any meaningful way with the universe: it's incredibly hard to maintain entanglement for longer than a few microseconds, and you have to isolate the particles at very low temperatures to do so. Quantum mechanics does not let you heal people with your mind through nonlocal effects: a.) entanglement collapses really fast and is hard to create in the first place and b.) the relationship is not causal.
Anyone who tells you otherwise either doesn't understand the formalism or is trying to pull one over on you.
onethirtyseven saidRegarding quantum physics: this is my field of study. There is not (by definition) any connection to gods or other supernatural things. Nor is your consciousness entangled in any meaningful way with the universe: it's incredibly hard to maintain entanglement for longer than a few microseconds, and you have to isolate the particles at very low temperatures to do so. Quantum mechanics does not let you heal people with your mind through nonlocal effects: a.) entanglement collapses really fast and is hard to create in the first place and b.) the relationship is not causal.
Anyone who tells you otherwise either doesn't understand the formalism or is trying to pull one over on you.
Good to know. Like I said, i have a very limited knowledge and that is what I have read in a couple of books. But I wonder now just how accurate are those books.
I've picked up a bunch of those books for grins and yeah... they're mostly snake oil. If you've got specific questions feel free to email me and I can try to explain some.
Okay... After reading alot of the posts before mine there seems to be an issue...
First off... There's a 'witch' war on YouTube. I hear enough of these arguments all the time. People will believe in what they want to. The original poster was just asking your opinion. Not for anyone to say "You're wrong I'm right, bow before yadda yadda yadda.".. See... This is the thing. Who cares what people believe? This thread was mainly to talk about what diversity there is in our community and possibly balance that. As I stated before I am a Pagan. I practice Witchcraft DAILY. You don't believe in it? Fine. Let me be in my own little world as I'll let you be.
Fundamentalism is all around even in my religious community. Just do a YouTube search of BlueFireWitch, Lucindio666, AmberThinks, or look for a video from TipToeChick about Satanic Wiccans. Christians do it, Atheists do it, when in fact everyone is forcing everyone to believe in their beliefs. It doesn't work that way and this isn't an opinion or belief... It's a fact. I have three rules when discussion religion.
1) God doesn't exist. There is no proof of God. And an ancient holy book written by delusional men around 2000 years ago is not proof.
2) Since there is no God, you can't prove your God to me just like I can't prove mine to you. You're just going to have to accept that.
3) Until there is proof of a specific deity/God.... Keep him to yourself.
mickeytopogigio> I've also observed the remarkably distinct personality of my pet dogs and cats. Cows too. None, that I can tell, had any relationship with God.
Xenophanes> if horses and oxen had hands and could draw pictures, their gods would look remarkably like horses and oxen.
I'm sure that also applies to dogs and cats.
BradySF> The blank slate is a reference to personality, philosophy, and theology
It's true that "tabula rasa" also refers to personality (but I think that is a later, Freudian, addition). But I'd argue that development (nurture) begins already in the womb, not at birth. I don't think anyone would argue that there is personality prior to conception (let me go poll some sperm and I'll get back to you).
BradySF> The difficulty in churches utilizing texts is that the Bible was written with both metaphorical and literal meanings in a non English language.
Here I fully agree with you. "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". Simple, right? Wrong. There are about 7 different possible interpretations possible from the original Hebrew (which lacked not only the vowels but also spaces between words). Probably the funnest is: "Sheet created God who created the heavens and the earth". Not saying that's likely the original intent, just that you'd never know just by reading a translation (or the text with the vowels and spaces added after the fact). Which should help explain why I have a very hard time with funamentalists who insist on their literal interpretations even without scratching the surface of the text.
Blackguy4u> Mankind is a doomed race in a dying universe. Because the human race will eventually cease to exist, it makes no ultimate difference whether it ever did exist. And this is the horror that you would believe in: that the same blind cosmic forces that vomited us up in the first place will eventually swallow us all again. Therein lies the absurdity. Without God life is absurd as it becomes meaningless!
That's absurd. You're not even arguing that God will protect us from dying (unless you mean in some after-life beyond the universe). But just because the human race may be witout "ultimate significance" doesn't imply that individual lives are without significance. Life is what you make of it.
Blackguy4u> do you have any idea of the probabilty of random occurrences happening just so, needed to create a viable universe for human beings to live in and our human body as well?
That's like arguing that person X winning the lottery can't be random because the odds don't favor it. Once something has happened, the probability that it happened is 1. That's the existing universe (but science fiction writers have long explored the, if mythical, concept of "alternate universes". You're right. Take away one random event (oh, a lightning strike that triggered life, a comet striking the earth 63 million years ago, an ancient predator failing to catch some prey that then crawled out of the ocean onto land) and you end up with a much different world. But had it happened that way, the probability of it having happend would be... 1. If humans existed in that alternate world, the probability appears high of you saying that world, however different than the one that does exist,couldn't possibly be the result of random events.
Blackguy4u> I believe that the universe is intelligently designed. Blackguy4u> what is the issue with intelligent design? it is more rational and takes less to believe than that an imponderable number of random occurrences created reality.
Please, before anyone continues to talk about ID, read that.
onethirtyseven> Energetically favorable low-entropy configurations will arise out of disordered systems, so long as they're not closed. The earth is not a closed system; it's free to radiate energy to space. Hence, we are free to have decreasing local entropy.
Well, that's exactly it. Whenever we can't explain something, the human tendency is to turn to the supernatural. Lighting? Thrown by Zeus. Eclipse? The gods are angry. Today those are easily understood (but not for that long, and not without a struggle), but the line has shifted to higher levels of science that today's layman can't understand (just as most people 2,000 years ago had no clue about electricity or lightning).
onethirtyseven> you'll find out a lot more about the early universe from astronomy than prayer.
Yup. Science is discovered while religion is [allegedly] "revealed".
jackofhearts46 saidwow, i'm surprised to see so many posts. but to those atheists and those who are rather critical of religion, whether it be a set organization like the Church or just a few beliefs and philosophies, you never elaborated why? I was always intrigued to now why people chose atheism over theism.
I'm just going to gloss over the Atheist vs Theist argument up there and go back to this comment.
I didn't so much choose Atheism as I did reject Theism, found that there really wasn't much left and was okay with that. When I was young I looked at the world and saw all the problems that religion caused and how the ardent believers were at each others throats; even when they were from similar branches of religion (such as the Islam-Christian-Jewis trinity). When I was six I saw all this violence done by people that were fighting over some god they couldn't touch I was disgusted and told my Athiest/Agnostic parents that Gods were evil. I've softened slightly in my opinion that Gods aren't so much evil as people who use them as justifications for irrational beliefs do evil things. That makes me both sad and angry because I feel that people should have enough sense to recognize when something is harmful and stop. I know, unrealistic.
I believe that your religious beliefs or lack thereof should enhance your life.
I know for many gay guys (not all), it’s hard to accept some organized religions because it chooses not accept us.
In this topic, some are criticizing others' beliefs. In principle, isn’t this the attitude that you hate about the religious denominations that you do not prescribe to----- Persuading you to conform to a way of thinking that does not fit you.
There are many religions with various denominations---Something for everyone.
The question is….Does it enhance your life?
If it does, then that's great, but it may not be for everyone.
If not, maybe the change is as simple as changing how you see your religion. Maybe you change to a different religion, or maybe you choose not to have one.
It’s your choice. What best fits you? If you are not sure, then maybe some soul searching is in order or maybe not.
In concordance with the growing discomfort at what religion has actually done and what it claims, as well as learning more and more about the natural world without the rose-colored glasses of religion, I went from being raised a roman catholic, to agnostic in my teens, and finally atheist.
That is all.
EDIT: I'm more of the 'agnostic atheist' kind. Or the soft atheist. I do not know if a designer/overseer exists or not and there's no way to prove or disprove that, but I'm pretty certain none of the human religions have any credibility whatsoever. It simply does not factor into my existence unless some crazy bastard does something horrific again in the name of his benevolent, all-merciful deity. Or some poor kid gets brainwashed with mixed signals on what's true and what isn't by fundamentalists intent on defending their scriptures even if it meant lying about science.
Blackguy4you said We thought that getting rid of God, would free us from all that represses us. Instead, we have learnt that in killing God, we have also killed ourselves. For if God does not exist - then life becomes absurd.
Oh... and my life is absurd? LOL. To the contrary, getting rid of the religion filter was the best thing that happened to me. I can appreciate the world for what it really is, and not through what other people claiming divine inspiration think it is. Besides what is there to fear about admitting your own ignorance?
I am merely admitting the truth. Rather than covering it with the obscuring veils of faith simply so I can find reassurance in artificial order.
That sounds like a fear tactic to me. So you'd rather be comfortable in lies than admit a painful truth. Interesting...
How do you or I as a mere mortal expect to figure God out? Wouldn't we be God ourselves if we could do that?
I think you should be asking that to the people who wrote the Bible, the pope, the priests, and your own self. Not atheists and agnostics.
I can ask you the same question: As a mere mortal how did you guys figure out what God was? What God wanted? What God wanted us to believe in? Even if God actually exists at all?
Pheo saidOkay... After reading alot of the posts before mine there seems to be an issue...
First off... There's a 'witch' war on YouTube. I hear enough of these arguments all the time. People will believe in what they want to. The original poster was just asking your opinion. Not for anyone to say "You're wrong I'm right, bow before yadda yadda yadda.".. See... This is the thing. Who cares what people believe? This thread was mainly to talk about what diversity there is in our community and possibly balance that. As I stated before I am a Pagan. I practice Witchcraft DAILY. You don't believe in it? Fine. Let me be in my own little world as I'll let you be.
Fundamentalism is all around even in my religious community. Just do a YouTube search of BlueFireWitch, Lucindio666, AmberThinks, or look for a video from TipToeChick about Satanic Wiccans. Christians do it, Atheists do it, when in fact everyone is forcing everyone to believe in their beliefs. It doesn't work that way and this isn't an opinion or belief... It's a fact. I have three rules when discussion religion.
1) God doesn't exist. There is no proof of God. And an ancient holy book written by delusional men around 2000 years ago is not proof.
2) Since there is no God, you can't prove your God to me just like I can't prove mine to you. You're just going to have to accept that.
3) Until there is proof of a specific deity/God.... Keep him to yourself.
now, losing the unnecessary poundage (barring any approaching famine), is the belief system i am fully behind.
Only in Christ is there true liberty and freedom. I enjoin you to try him and you'll realize what I'm talking about.
He's amazing!
you are a fanatic. and fanatics don't listen to reason. case closed.
oh you really should stop complimenting me like this. Didn't you know that it's an honour to be considered a fanatic for Christ?!?!?! High praise indeed.. thank you, thank you
You make me swoon, one more compliment like this from you and I just may have to propose to you
SedativeI can ask you the same question: As a mere mortal how did you guys figure out what God was? What God wanted? What God wanted us to believe in? Even if God actually exists at all?
People sometimes say that they can sense God through meditation, prayer and reflection.
Personally, I'm not sure, but it is important to divide between an 'interventionist' God who performs miracles at Lourdes and a 'guiding' God who helps you through your own prayer and reflection.
I have called myself an atheist in the past because I don't believe in Jesus's miracles, the virgin birth or the resurrection, but that's not to say that we can't tap into somethign important through prayer and meditation.
'There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families.'
- Margaret Thatcher
The Christian Message
'No man is an island entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as any manner of thy friends or of thine own were; any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind. And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.'
- John Donne
(It has always been clear to me which one is preferable)
I like your description of your beliefs jackofhearts46.
I was raised Roman Catholic but could not abide much of the hypocrisy I found in the religion and its followers. I am not a member of any religion today. I would consider myself a spiritualist of the fashion you described.
However, as I have grown older (and i hope wiser) I have come to recognize that any belief system can be corrupted as can the followers. I have come to have a greater appreciation for those who both follow traditional religions and have denounced the fanatics who preach hate. I firmly believe that we must stand against those who use religion to prejudice, and that we must continue to separate church from state.
However, as a gay man I must fight against intolerance every day. I cannot myself be one of the intolerant who refuses to recognize that while religion can be bad, there are many who use it for good. I think Bayard Rustin said it best:
“Every indifference to prejudice is suicide because, if I don’t fight all bigotry, bigotry itself will be strengthened and, sooner or later, it will return on me.”
SedativeI can ask you the same question: As a mere mortal how did you guys figure out what God was? What God wanted? What God wanted us to believe in? Even if God actually exists at all?
People sometimes say that they can sense God through meditation, prayer and reflection.
Personally, I'm not sure, but it is important to divide between an 'interventionist' God who performs miracles at Lourdes and a 'guiding' God who helps you through your own prayer and reflection.
I have called myself an atheist in the past because I don't believe in Jesus's miracles, the virgin birth or the resurrection, but that's not to say that we can't tap into somethign important through prayer and meditation.
True. And I can sense the feeling of something greater too when say... I see this:
Or this:
Or this:
Or this:
Or this:
Or this:
Or this:
Or this:
Or this:
But I don't necessarily see a 'message' in it. It's just awe. Wonderment. The numinous. Because this universe is indeed beautiful and mysterious. And I want to learn more about it, rather than use prepackaged human explanations for it.
But more importantly, it doesn't tell me to stone people to death for adultery, nor does it tell me pray every Sunday, or wear this type of dress, or eat only this type of food, or do this, or do that, or don't do this, or don't do that.
If anything, it makes me realize just how ridiculous we really are. Bickering about people who do not pray the right way, dress the right way, act the right way, believe the right God. When all of us. ALL of the Earth is just a little ball of dust in something far vaster than anything we can fathom.
It doesn't make me despair to admit that we're insignificant. Religions come from a time when all man knew was limited to this little world. When everything he does seem to be of utmost importance, when the Earth seems to be everything there is. When everything can be discovered, cataloged, and explained neatly in stories. When we were the center of the Universe, the chosen species, the blessed ones. In a word - anthropocentric.
That was our childhood. Perhaps that is why there is so much resistance in accepting the truth and why some people would still rather believe in a flat Earth. Because it comforts them. It makes them feel important. It makes their lives matter.
But we have a far larger universe now, and no matter how we try, we can not fit our all too human musings on the divine on the simple incomprehensibility of the known universe. We can not hide from the truth of physical reality. We can not and must not simplify all the wonders of the universe into something as simplistic as a book of holy verses and in doing so close our minds to what mysteries are yet to be revealed. Religions never change, they expect the world to change around them. It's stagnant, a closed system, blind.
I have no faith, I only have curiosity, but I certainly do not begrudge the comfort of prayers, to whomever it might be directed. I do not know if there is a God or not after all. But all too often instead of listening, prayers instead become the outlet for delusions. When personal prejudices suddenly become the word of God.
Remember, that a person can only think of what he already knows. He can only use what he already has. Prayer or meditation, to whomever it may be directed, can't give you new knowledge, it can only rearrange them into something that makes sense.
People look down to the ground when they pray. I'd rather just gawp at the night sky.
jackofhearts46 said Personally, I was raised Greek Orthodox. But after some reading and talking to friends I became a spiritualist drawing from Orthodoxy, Hinduism, and Buddhism. I personally don't believe in a single conscious divine being that created life, but a force or energy that connects all of us. The gods we worship and follow are just our own manifestations of that energy.
So, what do you believe. And why do you, or don't you, believe it?
I guess i'm in the same boat. Raised Catholic family is very religious, we play church music go through all the motions and the chapter and verse, but I've sort of started believeing in a little of everything. I mean, personally I talk to God all the time, but I think that no one group has ever got it completely right. So i just keep trying to find God in the little things. I love how you said the "divine being that created life, but a force or energy that connects all of us" I'm all with the "what the bleep do we know" on this one. I don't know what God is, but i'm completely sure God is, and at least on the smallest subatomic particle God is there in everything and everyone. But when it comes to the organized religion thing....well, i just don't know. I think they all have some good ideas, and they all can do something for you if you give them a try, but then again isn't that the point of religion. It's suppose to be like working out for your spiritual health. And spiritual health is all part of well-being (if i remember anything from health class). spiritual health is suppose to being making people feel connected to others, the world, and their environment. So I guess I just think it doesn't matter so much in what you believe so long as you believe in something that makes you feel more connected to that around you. Personally, I guess i'm just a spiritualist open to a little of understanding of every different dogma and religious set up or set of superstitions. I mean when you throw out all the details, don't they all try and say the same thing?
SedativeRemember, that a person can only think of what he already knows. He can only use what he already has. Prayer or meditation, to whomever it may be directed, can't give you new knowledge, it can only rearrange them into something that makes sense.
I liked your pictures ... and I thought I might add one...
I agree with everything you say about organised religion. I disagree with the bit above though - because I'm not sure. I've read arguments that human reason *is* the act of accessing the Divine, and that seems very attractive to me. I think when you've got a genuine choice between a bleak picture and a positive one, you should always choose the positive one.
My second point is even if we think the Bible is entirely man-made and 'untrue' (which I do)... we shouldn't reject its importance. I particularly like Jesus's (presumably historically accurate) pacifist message and the 'love thy neighbour' message.
I agree with everything you say about organised religion. I disagree with the bit above though - because I'm not sure. I've read arguments that human reason *is* the act of accessing the Divine, and that seems very attractive to me. I think when you've got a genuine choice between a bleak picture and a positive one, you should always choose the positive one.
My second point is even if we think the Bible is entirely man-made and 'untrue' (which I do)... we shouldn't reject its importance. I particularly like Jesus's (presumably historically accurate) pacifist message and the 'love thy neighbour' message.
Ah yeah. The origin of consciousness. Heh. That in itself is another mystery. The act of being an observer itself seem to affect quantum physics LOL. So it does seem to be significant. Why we even experience linear time for example, or why we perceive the things we perceive, why we can only grasp 4 dimensions and not more, etc. However, you still wouldn't know if it was divine, just your own mind, or alien signals from outer space. LOL.
And another caveat: each mind is isolated. A solipsistic viewpoint I know, but true nonetheless. I would not know what you're thinking, how you think, how you view the world, how you experience the world. You may view time at a slower pace than I do but measure it the same, you may see different colors than I do and call it the same names, you may be for all I know simply part of an extremely detailed dream. I know I am conscious, but how do I know you are? Maybe the rabbit is conscious in short bursts, maybe the whale is conscious but think so differently it doesn't even bother to communicate with us, maybe the rocks are conscious but measure thoughts in millions of years, maybe the earth itself is a consciousness, maybe the whole universe is one massive brain. Thinking doesn't exactly make us special. We only think it's special because all we ever know are ourselves. We have nothing to compare it with.
Your god may not be mine, or we may all be gods; or I may be the only real consciousness and all of you my mental creations and thus I am god; maybe the only 'real' reality is when we dream (as the Australian aborigines believe); maybe we are all part of one mind; or maybe we really are simply what we are - sentient animals, nothing at all - parasites in the quarks of one of the electrons orbiting the neutron of an atom of the molecule we know as the Universe. You see the problems? Heh Even I am confusing myself.
But yeah, you cleanly illustrate the difference between an atheist and an agnostic. An agnostic is optimistic on the existence of a supreme being, the atheist isn't, both reject human religions. However, note that they may still be optimistic or pessimistic about life in general. Believing or not believing in a god does not necessarily affect the way you lead your life at all. They can still be good or evil (in the most accepted definitions of those words).
And yes, I certainly admire Jesus as I admire Buddha (also assuming accounts of both are historically accurate of course) or Gandhi, etc. All of them were more humanists than prophets. They saw the person first rather than the religion of the person, something most religious people still don't seem to get. Organized religion discards the individual. All that matters is the whole 'organism'. A fact underlined on why they can easily burn a gay saint but forgive a mass murderer who converts to their religion. Conform or die.
Sedative saidAnd yes, I certainly admire Jesus as I admire Buddha (also assuming accounts of both are historically accurate of course) or Gandhi, etc. All of them were more humanists than prophets. They saw the person first rather than the religion of the person, something most religious people still don't seem to get. Organized religion discards the individual. All that matters is the whole 'organism'. A fact underlined on why they can easily burn a gay saint but forgive a mass murderer who converts to their religion. Conform or die.
Good point, they were social revolutionaries that were actually hated by their religious contemporaries because they threatened the existing religious power structure. And yet here the Roman Church and it's progeny built themselves up on that very religious structure Jesus condemned. Likewise Gautama Buddha was hated for his condemnation of the caste system, and his enemies attempted to frame and kill and him.
Ah yeah. The origin of consciousness. Heh. That in itself is another mystery. The act of being an observer itself seem to affect quantum physics LOL. So it does seem to be significant. Why we even experience linear time for example, or why we perceive the things we perceive, why we can only grasp 4 dimensions and not more, etc. However, you still wouldn't know if it was divine, just your own mind, or alien signals from outer space. LOL.
Sedative, I very much like the direction you've been going in your last two posts. Lots of good stuff to read there.
Just to interject a bit of science, though: most physicists working with quantum mechanics these days are of the opinion that consciousness is not privileged. Misuse of the phrase "observer", I think, has led to confusion on this fact. When systems decohere, it does not look like they actually "collapse" so much as diffuse their uncertainty into the environment at large. A box constraining a molecule of air counts as an "observation" if you want to use that metaphor, but it probably makes more sense to say that the box is so big and complicated that the uncertainty in the air molecule's state is undetectable when absorbed into the walls of the box.
SedativeYour god may not be mine, or we may all be gods; or I may be the only real consciousness and all of you my mental creations and thus I am god; maybe the only 'real' reality is when we dream (as the Australian aborigines believe); maybe we are all part of one mind; or maybe we really are simply what we are - sentient animals, nothing at all - parasites in the quarks of one of the electrons orbiting the neutron of an atom of the molecule we know as the Universe. You see the problems? Heh Even I am confusing myself.
I've come round to thinking that you *do* actually have an answer to all these questions.. and that's to trust your senses. Real is what feels right.
It really, really doesn't feel like I'm stuck next to Keanu Reeves in the Matrix, so I'm not.
Sedative I certainly admire Jesus as I admire Buddha (also assuming accounts of both are historically accurate of course) or Gandhi, etc. All of them were more humanists than prophets. They saw the person first rather than the religion of the person, something most religious people still don't seem to get. Organized religion discards the individual.
Totally agree. Except you left out Princess Diana.
(I'm joking about Princess Di)
Jesus said lots of interesting and radical things, that everyone just kinda ignored for millennia. I particularly like, 'It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.'
SedativeMaybe the rabbit is conscious in short bursts, maybe the whale is conscious but think so differently it doesn't even bother to communicate with us,
Actually I'm 100% that most animals do have consciousness and reason just like us, but I don't wanna dwell on it too much, or I'll end up vegetarian. My mother had enough to cope with me being homosexual (j/k).
SedativeRemember, that a person can only think of what he already knows. He can only use what he already has. Prayer or meditation, to whomever it may be directed, can't give you new knowledge, it can only rearrange them into something that makes sense.
My second point is even if we think the Bible is entirely man-made and 'untrue' (which I do)... we shouldn't reject its importance. I particularly like Jesus's (presumably historically accurate) pacifist message and the 'love thy neighbour' message.
If the bible is untrue- wouldn't this also make Jesus and his pacifist message therefore untrue?
Yup, 'untrue' in scare-quotes isn't particularly clear.
I think the Bible is partly a historical record and partly the creation of its authors.
A parallel would be a film like Gangs of New York, which partly historically accurate and is partly the creation of Martin Scorcese.
So I accept the word of the biblical authors on Jesus's existence and his political teaching, but I do not accept the word of the biblical authors concerning the resurrection, the virgin birth, or Christ's miracles.
Lost_And_Found saidYup, 'untrue' in scare-quotes isn't particularly clear.
I think the Bible is partly a historical record and partly the creation of its authors.
A parallel would be a film like Gangs of New York, which partly historically accurate and is partly the creation of Martin Scorcese.
So I accept the word of the biblical authors on Jesus's existence and his political teaching, but I do not accept the word of the biblical authors concerning the resurrection, the virgin birth, or Christ's miracles.
I'm flummoxed - totally trully flummoxed. I don't understand how it is possible for you to do that.
But hmmmmmmm perhaps this is the start to you becoming a TB
To answer the original question: I’m an atheist. I was raised in a family where organized religion was not an important issue. My father served in World War II and, so he told me, became an atheist when he witnessed the bombing of Coventry. My mother was less interested in religion than teaching people with what are called disabilities such as Down’s syndrome. Like many people, I disagreed with my parents vehemently when I was a teenager, but now find myself adopting convictions which are rather close to theirs. Of course, along the way I studied literature, philosophy, science and found many ways of looking at life. Influential things in my teenage life: “The Ambassadors”, “The tomb at Akr Car”, “V”, Alfred Wallis, “Blade Runner”, “Knowledge of Angels”. When I studied religion at school, the textbook carefully balanced each “Christian viewpoint” with a “humanist viewpoint”. I agreed almost universally with the humanists, but when I went to a meeting I didn’t really care for them. I became a professional physicist having read my degree and taken my PhD–I lived with a theologian incidentally–and I learnt what I needed to understand what the many thousands of people have taught us about the nature of the universe. When asked to give an opinion on a moral scenario, I find no general principles that could allow me to give one without carefully examining the many interests and rights at stake. I paint because science is a creative endeavor that is an integral part of who I am.
More generally: It is fascinating to me that this argument has become a question of religion/science as if this was a clear dichotomy. What do we mean by “religion” and “science” anyway? There are to be sure common themes to be found above–ritual, scripture, canon for religion; falsifiability, experiment, theory, axiom for science. These are themes only: the former do not apply to all religions while the meaning of the latter has changed dramatically over time.These are being bandied about as if we all knew what they meant; the discussion above suggests we do not.
Is Science a religion? For Newton, certainly. For me, no. I have a beautiful example: last semester a speaker showed me that one of the central axioms of Quantum Mechanics (that the Hamiltonian has to be a Hermitian operator) was not incorrect but overly restrictive (you can read the paper freely on the ArXiv). Religions seem to have no question for settling questions of canon because they have no methodology to do so other than power. I on the other hand, changed my mind because I was convinced by his mathematical argument.
It is hilarious that someone quoted John Donne as the voice of “Christianity”. This man was a Catholic whose family was either murdered or exiled for heresy against the Church of England. The extract reads as a beautiful expression of Humanism and it is risible to suggest that there has ever been a coherent “Christianity”. I doubt that there has ever been a coherent version of any religion.
I find a surprising number of atheists in churches, and I find a surprising number of people who identify as “religious” in science. I do not understand how either group rationalizes their beliefs; rather I believe like Orwell that people are quite capable of holding incompatible beliefs. It need not make them bad scientists and it need not make them sinners. It need not make them bad people.
There is a disturbing trend in our society to make everything a Versus (I learnt this when I was 15 from Tony Harrison’s poem V): black v. white, old v. young, science v. religion, gay v. straight. Defining the world this way is a political statement. In the past, people used natural philosophy to discredit received dogma; now, certain religious groups use the same technique to discredit science. And so I think that there is certainly a sense in which contemporary Atheism has become a politics. It says: governments have no right to base policy on dogma, rather policies are specific to the place and time and must therefore be justified with reference to the rights and liberties of all those it affects. Strangely, I have heard this argument from many people who call themselves religious.
Tiger TimReligions seem to have no question for settling questions of canon because they have no methodology to do so other than power. I on the other hand, changed my mind because I was convinced by his mathematical argument.
The law can only be changed through a 'political' process - that's the same for religious doctrine. I don't think it's a problem.
Tiger TimIt is hilarious that someone quoted John Donne as the voice of “Christianity”. This man was a Catholic whose family was either murdered or exiled for heresy against the Church of England. The extract reads as a beautiful expression of Humanism and it is risible to suggest that there has ever been a coherent “Christianity”
I think that 'No Man is an Island' draws its strength from Christ's message 'Love thy neighbour as thyself'... (which is, of course, an echo of the Old Testament.)
It is important here to distinguish between the teachings of various churches and the teaching of Christ. I suspect that in your terms, Christ was a humanist... cf Margaret Thatcher's classical liberalism, 'there's no such thing as society.'
My point here is that Christ's teachings are morally superior to classical liberalism's message of toleration and distance.
Just to interject a bit of science, though: most physicists working with quantum mechanics these days are of the opinion that consciousness is not privileged. Misuse of the phrase "observer", I think, has led to confusion on this fact. When systems decohere, it does not look like they actually "collapse" so much as diffuse their uncertainty into the environment at large. A box constraining a molecule of air counts as an "observation" if you want to use that metaphor, but it probably makes more sense to say that the box is so big and complicated that the uncertainty in the air molecule's state is undetectable when absorbed into the walls of the box.
Thanks for the explanation, heh. I only know 'popular' physics, LOL. TigerTim is the other resident physicist here.
Blackguy4you said I'm flummoxed - totally trully flummoxed. I don't understand how it is possible for you to do that.
But hmmmmmmm perhaps this is the start to you becoming a TB
Of course you will be. You view the world in black and white. The heaven-goers and the hell-goers. You vs. them. You have no room for grays.
The Bible is highly embellished, distorted by translations and time, and borrows heavily from local mythology and calling them facts (the creation myth being one of those), I wouldn't call it true. For those who read nothing but the Bible of course it would seem true. Are you one of those?
Some parts have more merit than the rest. The accounts of Jesus for example are reported from several viewpoints of his disciples and is relatively recent, thus a little bit more reliable than the rest. And furthermore, his existence has been noted by non-Christian archeological and historical sources.
It doesn't mean that the apostles' account of Jesus is faultless, however. Have you read your Bible?
Please read Matthew 1:1-17 and Luke 3:23-28. Both are accounts of Jesus' ancestors. Both differ wildly. Who is telling the truth and who is lying? And if one of them is lying, would you still consider the entire Bible to be unquestionably factual?
You modern Christians are so far from the original notion of Christianity, even Jesus would disown you.
Jesus hated the clergy, he condemned the Pharisees for being too caught up in religious laws that they forgot common humanity. And what did Christians do? They founded the Catholic Church. Made a Pope, elected Cardinals, Archbishops, Bishops, all with the power to excommunicate anyone who didn't agree with them in ways eerily similar to what the Pharisees did.
Jesus taught the gospel of the Good Samaritan. And what did Christians do? They staged the crusades, massacred protestants, burned witches.
Jesus hated empty ritual, the only other time he ever got angry (aside from that with the Pharisees) was when he went crazy at the temple moneychangers and the people selling livestock for sacrifice. And what did Christians do? Establish whole new rituals in his name and demanded tithes. Morbid ones nonetheless - the last supper and the crucifixion to name a few. And created a disgustingly wealthy religious elite.
Oh who am I kidding here. That probably will sail right over your head too.
Anyway since you avoided my last question. I'll ask you another: If the Bible is ALL TRUE, shouldn't you be stoned to death? Choose carefully what pedestals you stand on. Because not all of them are sound.
Lost_And_Found saidI think that 'No Man is an Island' draws its strength from Christ's message 'Love thy neighbour as thyself'... (which is, of course, an echo of the Old Testament.)
It is important here to distinguish between the teachings of various churches and the teaching of Christ. I suspect that in your terms, Christ was a humanist... cf Margaret Thatcher's classical liberalism, 'there's no such thing as society.'
My point here is that Christ's teachings are morally superior to classical liberalism's message of toleration and distance.
Actually I wouldn't call "Love thy neighbor as thyself" a Christian message either. Jesus certainly said it, but Christians took it to mean "Love thy Christian neighbor as thyself". True, the message of acceptance is a nice sentiment, but it wasn't unconditional. You had to be a functioning Christian yourself, or else you'd just be the 'enemy'. Case to point: I have very rarely seen the rabidly religious here defend anyone not of their faith. They rarely lift a finger for a Muslim unless it benefits them or they have plans to convert them, nor for a homosexual, nor for a pagan, etc. They're more likely to condemn them for being unbelievers than help them. Even most missionaries here only help with the intent of baptizing new members. There are those that do however, but few and far in between. They recognize the larger common humanity, than mere common religion, and thus are actually humanists.
The ethic of reciprocity, or what we more commonly know as the 'golden rule': "Do not do unto others what you do not want others to do unto you" or its reverse "Do unto others what you want others to do unto you" (simply another version of "Love thy neighbor as thyself") is actually quite common in religions, philosophies, and non-religious thought. You do not need to believe in a God to believe in that.
Even then, that rule itself is flawed. Because it's a 'rule', and as such doesn't take into consideration situational and contextual differences in the way that humanism which focuses on the individual does. For example, Muslims, Jews, and Catholics will circumcise their men in order to make them cleaner in the eyes of God. But should they circumcise their children too simply because it is what they want for themselves? It is a fallacy to think that what you want is also what others want. There will always be differences, which is why it's also important to stress tolerance in addition to acceptance rather than simply conditional acceptance.
And as TigerTim pointed out, Donne's "no man is an island" poem is actually a humanist viewpoint. Note that Liberalism is NOT Humanism.
Tiger TimReligions seem to have no question for settling questions of canon because they have no methodology to do so other than power. I on the other hand, changed my mind because I was convinced by his mathematical argument.
The law can only be changed through a 'political' process - that's the same for religious doctrine. I don't think it's a problem.
Also, no actually. There are some core tenets in Religion which can not ever be challenged or changed, unlike in scientific methodology. Sure minor laws like eating shellfish can be overturned, but only through introspection. It seldom if ever accepts input from the real world, all the reasons have to be based on existing scriptures, existing laws.
Think of it as a constitution. Scientific disciplines routinely revise their constitution (dissent against the accepted scientific theories are even encouraged as long as there is proof to back it up). Religious disciplines may change their statutes, their laws, may add new ones, but they'll never change their constitution.
-- I was raised in a very conservative Southern Baptist family. One of my sisters is a missionary. I became an agnostic, though not knowingly, around the age of 10 or 11. I was a state champion at Bible Drill when I was 13 (they called it Sword Drill back then -- how gay!) . . .
-- "Every good cause becomes a business, then a racket." -- Eric Hoffer
-- most of this mess is really about the group versus the individual; so many people cannot exist on their own and they will believe anything so that they do not have to stand alone . . . In high school, I actually gave a speech against the recent formation of the Pep Club because I was horrified that the club already had 100 members in one day (in a school of about 700 kids) . . . yep, i was real popular . . .
-- a lot of this is about birth order . . . i think my missionary sister, the eldest child in our family (and the child with the lowest IQ), is really defending something like family honor or tradition rather than a belief system . . .
-- beliefs might not even exist . . . has anyone taken a course on Philosophy of Action?
-- and the verse "ye shall know them by their fruits" now has a new meaning for me . . .
SedativeThe ethic of reciprocity, or what we more commonly know as the 'golden rule': "Do not do unto others what you do not want others to do unto you" or its reverse "Do unto others what you want others to do unto you" (simply another version of "Love thy neighbor as thyself") is actually quite common in religions, philosophies, and non-religious thought. You do not need to believe in a God to believe in that.
First, it's nice debating with you as always.
While various churches may have effectively taught 'love thy christian neighbour' - they have been morally wrong and biblically inaccurate to do so.
I think the 'love thy neighbour' message is central to Christ's political message. I've done some looking up...
Jesus says - 'You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbour and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. (Matthew 5:43)
So Christ has a very, very, radical message that goes beyond liberal tolerance. I find it extremely morally attractive.
SedativeAnd as TigerTim pointed out, Donne's "no man is an island" poem is actually a humanist viewpoint
In view of Matthew 5.43, I think that 'No Man is an Island' reflects Christ's teachings well. I was trying to set it up against classical liberalism ('no such thing as society just groups of individuals') - but it would have been much clearer just to use Matthew 5.43. I was lazy with the googling. ;)
I don't think 'No Man is an Island' can be described as humanist, because it is a religious sermon.
SedativeReligious disciplines may change their statutes, their laws, may add new ones, but they'll never change their constitution.
I'm not sure - Imagine a scenario in which a Pope accepted a 'Third Testament'. Why not?
I think that Tiger Tim was arguing that while science applies the scienific method logic and to change its doctrine, religion only uses political processes (i.e. the vote of the Anglican Synod). I agree, but I don't think it's a problem
Lost_And_Found said While various churches may have effectively taught 'love thy christian neighbour' - they have been morally wrong and biblically inaccurate to do so.
I think the 'love thy neighbour' message is central to Christ's political message. I've done some looking up...
Jesus says - 'You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbour and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. (Matthew 5:43)
So Christ has a very, very, radical message that goes beyond liberal tolerance. I find it extremely morally attractive.
Of course they were. It still doesn't stop them though:
Also note that this message is not solely Christian, it can be found in almost all world religions and secular philosophies. In fact, eastern religions practically base everything on this line of thought that has easily been twisted and forgotten in Christianity, Islam, and Judaism.
They call it Ahimsa. And it is the single most important tenet in Hinduism and Buddhism, but ESPECIALLY in Jainism. Where even the killing of plants is done with guilt at the harming of a living creature.
But just to illustrate it's widespread use, I'll quote some religious scriptures found by Google of course.
He was angry with me, he attacked me, he defeated me, he robbed me”—those who dwell on such thoughts will never be free from hatred. He was angry with me, he attacked me, he defeated me, he robbed me”—those who do not dwell on such thoughts will surely be free from hatred. For hatred can never put an end to hatred. Love alone can. This is an unalterable law. - Dhammapada 1:3-5, Buddhism
Just as a mother would protect her only child at the risk of her own life, even so, cultivate a boundless heart towards all beings. Let your thoughts of boundless love pervade the whole world with peace. - Nipata Sutta 149-15, Buddhism
My Lord! Others have fallen back in showing compassion to their benefactors as you have shown compassion even to your malefactors. All this is unparalleled.- Vitaragastava 14:5, Jainism
The sage has no fixed ideas. He regards the people's ideas as his own. I treat those who are good with goodness, And I also treat those who are not good with goodness. Thus goodness is attained.
I am honest with those who are honest, And I am also honest with those who are dishonest. Thus honesty is attained. & Do good to him who has done you an injury. - Tao Te Ching 49 & 63, Taoism
It may be that God will ordain love between you and those whom you hold as enemies. For God has power over all things; and God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. - Koran 60.7, Islam
A superior being does not render evil for evil; this is a maxim one should observe; the ornament of virtuous persons is their conduct. One should never harm the wicked or the good or even criminals meriting death. A noble soul will ever exercise compassion even towards those who enjoy injuring others or those of cruel deeds when they are actually committing them--for who is without fault? - Ramayana, Yuddha Kanda 115, Hinduism
What kind of love is this that to another can shift? Says Nanak, True lovers are those who are forever absorbed in the Beloved. Whoever discriminates between treatment held good or bad, Is not a true lover--he rather is caught in calculations. Adi Granth, Asa-ki-Var, M.2, p. 474, Sikhism Etc.
But again, like all so called moral 'laws', it has a problem with interpretation and when to use it. Because it is rigid. Should you not defend yourself if you are attacked then? Should you not kill someone who will go on to kill a hundred more innocent people? When does pacifism become inaction, when does universal love become complaisance to hatred, when does forgiveness become injustice?
Lost_And_Found said I don't think 'No Man is an Island' can be described as humanist, because it is a religious sermon.
Er... no. Humanism transcends religion. Although humanism is generally compatible with atheists and agnostics, not all atheists/agnostics are humanists, and not all humanists are atheists/agnostics. You can be religious and humanist at the same time. In fact some of the most peaceful and most accepting religions are humanists: Unitarians & Quakers for instance. Unitarians most of all. And most if not all major eastern religions were primarily humanist. Which is why you very rarely see Buddhists at odds with modern science for instance. The roots of modern humanism actually go back to the Renaissance. And the 'father of humanism' was a priest: Petrarch.
Lost_And_Found saidI'm not sure - Imagine a scenario in which a Pope accepted a 'Third Testament'. Why not?
I think that Tiger Tim was arguing that while science uses logic and reason to change its doctrine, religion only uses political processes (i.e. the vote of the Anglican Synod). I agree, but I don't think it's a problem
Er... I'll reserve judgment until the churches finally stop trying to find ridiculous ways of refuting scientific evidence all in the name of defending their laws.
SedativeAlso note that this message is not solely Christian, it can be found in almost all world religions and secular philosophies. In fact, eastern religions practically base everything on this line of thought that has easily been twisted and forgotten in Christianity, Islam, and Judaism.
Cool. I liked the quotations. I could deny it, but I have been a little christian-o-centric. I blame my parents ;)
I've got a good anecdote actually, when I was at school in the 80s, we did a class on 'religions in the UK' - and we wrote up on the board 'Methodism, Anglicanism, Catholicism, Presbytarianism...' So, that's *all* the religions covered then ;)
SedativeEr... no. Humanism transcends religion.
Well sorta. Isn't it a bit like me telling you that I'm a democratic maoist.... or a gay republican (!)
SedativeBut again, like all so called moral 'laws', it has a problem with interpretation and when to use it. Because it is rigid. Should you not defend yourself if you are attacked then? Should you not kill someone who will go on to kill a hundred more innocent people? When does pacifism become inaction, when does universal love become complaisance to hatred, when does forgiveness become injustice?
I agree - but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. Just because 'moral law' is difficult, doesn't mean we should just give up and do the full Henry Kissinger.
SedativeI'll reserve judgment until the churches finally stop trying to find ridiculous ways of refuting scientific evidence all in the name of defending their laws.
Not all Christian Churches as anti-science as the Bible Belt loony toons - The Church of England buried Darwin in Westminster Abbey for example. Although they weren't so keen on him when he was alive... lol.
Where you brought up Catholic Sedative? I hope you realise that Catholics burn in hell as well as atheists. Just worried for your soul. (j/k)
SO INCREDIBLY OFFENSIVE AND INCORRECT! SIMPLY NOT TRUE!
I AM A GAY MAN & A CHRISTIAN & I HAVE STUDIED MICRO BIOLOGY, ORGANIC & INORGANIC CHEMISTRY, PHYSICS & CALCULUS ON CANADIAN UNIVERSITY LEVELS!
STOP PIGEON-HOLING EVERY CHRISTIAN CAUSE YOU SAW SOME HICK ON TV SAY SOMETHING INCREDIBLY STUPID! I BET YOU BELIEVE EVERY MUSLIM IS A TERRORIST!
I SPEAK TO SO MANY PEOPLE WHO KNOW ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT SCIENCE OR MATH AND CLAIM EVOLUTION/SCIENCE AND ANYTHING SPIRITUAL IS SHEER STUPIDITY! THE IRONY....UGH.
TAKE A CLASS-READ A TEXTBOOK- YOU WILL LEARN THAT ONCE YOU UNDERSTAND THE BUILDING BLOCKS OF MATH AND CHEMICALS (& NOT A HIGH SCHOOL UNDERSTANDING) - IT IS SO FAR BEYOND ANYTHING EVEN THE WORLD'S BRIGHTEST MINDS WILL EVER COMPREHEND IN YOUR LIFETIME! HOW MANY TIMES DID I SIT IN CLASS ASKING PROFESSORS "WHY?" DOES THIS SINGLE CHEMICAL REACTION BROKEN DOWN TO ITS VERY ELECTRON MOVEMENT GO AGAINST EVERYTHING CLAIMED AS FACT TO ONLY HEAR "WE HAVE NO IDEA SO WE ARE JUST ASSUMING DUE TO THE OUTCOME, WE DON'T KNOW THE MID-PROCESS, IT'S A HUGE GUESS"
SCIENCE IS FILLED WITH MORE EXCEPTIONS TO THE ORGANIC CHEMICAL RULES THAN FRENCH IS TO CONJUGATION OF ITS VERBS!
SOMETIMES I'M AMAZED BY THE IGNORANCE AND LACK OF RESPECT IN THESE THREADS. AS GAY MEN WE SHOULD TEACH TOLERANCE.
IvesCardinSOMETIMES I'M AMAZED BY THE IGNORANCE AND LACK OF RESPECT IN THESE THREADS. AS GAY MEN WE SHOULD TEACH TOLERANCE.
Tolerance is overrated ;) Lets go the whole hog...
Jesus says - 'You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbour and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. (Matthew 5:43)
SO INCREDIBLY OFFENSIVE AND INCORRECT! SIMPLY NOT TRUE!
I AM A GAY MAN & A CHRISTIAN & I HAVE STUDIED MICRO BIOLOGY, ORGANIC & INORGANIC CHEMISTRY, PHYSICS & CALCULUS ON CANADIAN UNIVERSITY LEVELS!
STOP PIGEON-HOLING EVERY CHRISTIAN CAUSE YOU SAW SOME HICK ON TV SAY SOMETHING INCREDIBLY STUPID! I BET YOU BELIEVE EVERY MUSLIM IS A TERRORIST!
I SPEAK TO SO MANY PEOPLE WHO KNOW ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT SCIENCE OR MATH AND CLAIM EVOLUTION/SCIENCE AND ANYTHING SPIRITUAL IS SHEER STUPIDITY! THE IRONY....UGH.
TAKE A CLASS-READ A TEXTBOOK- YOU WILL LEARN THAT ONCE YOU UNDERSTAND THE BUILDING BLOCKS OF MATH AND CHEMICALS (& NOT A HIGH SCHOOL UNDERSTANDING) - IT IS SO FAR BEYOND ANYTHING EVEN THE WORLD'S BRIGHTEST MINDS WILL EVER COMPREHEND IN YOUR LIFETIME! HOW MANY TIMES DID I SIT IN CLASS ASKING PROFESSORS "WHY?" DOES THIS SINGLE CHEMICAL REACTION BROKEN DOWN TO ITS VERY ELECTRON MOVEMENT GO AGAINST EVERYTHING CLAIMED AS FACT TO ONLY HEAR "WE HAVE NO IDEA SO WE ARE JUST ASSUMING DUE TO THE OUTCOME, WE DON'T KNOW THE MID-PROCESS, IT'S A HUGE GUESS"
SCIENCE IS FILLED WITH MORE EXCEPTIONS TO THE ORGANIC CHEMICAL RULES THAN FRENCH IS TO CONJUGATION OF ITS VERBS!
SOMETIMES I'M AMAZED BY THE IGNORANCE AND LACK OF RESPECT IN THESE THREADS. AS GAY MEN WE SHOULD TEACH TOLERANCE.[/quote]
Honestly, I found nothing offensive about this at all. BLOODY HYSTERICAL! An absolute true representation of the moronacy of the religious. EVERY SINGLE predjudice we face today stems from religion and the worship of the nonsensicle (spelling?) thing people call god. It bloody amazes me that in that in this modern day and age, people are still daft enough to believe in such superstition/rubbish! -Keith
IvesCardin08 saidSCIENCE AND ANYTHING SPIRITUAL IS SHEER STUPIDITY! THE IRONY....UGH.
TAKE A CLASS-READ A TEXTBOOK- YOU WILL LEARN THAT ONCE YOU UNDERSTAND THE BUILDING BLOCKS OF MATH AND CHEMICALS (& NOT A HIGH SCHOOL UNDERSTANDING) - IT IS SO FAR BEYOND ANYTHING EVEN THE WORLD'S BRIGHTEST MINDS WILL EVER COMPREHEND IN YOUR LIFETIME! HOW MANY TIMES DID I SIT IN CLASS ASKING PROFESSORS "WHY?" DOES THIS SINGLE CHEMICAL REACTION BROKEN DOWN TO ITS VERY ELECTRON MOVEMENT GO AGAINST EVERYTHING CLAIMED AS FACT TO ONLY HEAR "WE HAVE NO IDEA SO WE ARE JUST ASSUMING DUE TO THE OUTCOME, WE DON'T KNOW THE MID-PROCESS, IT'S A HUGE GUESS"
SCIENCE IS FILLED WITH MORE EXCEPTIONS TO THE ORGANIC CHEMICAL RULES THAN FRENCH IS TO CONJUGATION OF ITS VERBS!
SOMETIMES I'M AMAZED BY THE IGNORANCE AND LACK OF RESPECT IN THESE THREADS. AS GAY MEN WE SHOULD TEACH TOLERANCE.
Honestly, I found nothing offensive about this at all. BLOODY HYSTERICAL! An absolute true representation of the moronacy of the religious. EVERY SINGLE predjudice we face today stems from religion and the worship of the nonsensicle (spelling?) thing people call god. It bloody amazes me that in that in this modern day and age, people are still daft enough to believe in such superstition/rubbish! -Keith [/quote]
And once again you have managed to flummoxed me. I'm trully flummoxed, Absofreakinlutely floored.
You are prejuidice - well heck let's be honest you are a bigot.
You don't belive God exists and religion is for morons and you are too smart for that ...
So where da heck did you get your prejuidice from?
Sedative said You can be religious and humanist at the same time. In fact some of the most peaceful and most accepting religions are humanists: Unitarians & Quakers for instance. Unitarians most of all. And most if not all major eastern religions were primarily humanist. Which is why you very rarely see Buddhists at odds with modern science for instance. The roots of modern humanism actually go back to the Renaissance. And the 'father of humanism' was a priest: Petrarch.
I am glad you brought up Quakers and Unitarians. you know John Adams was one of the earlier versions of Unitarians and a Deist -- We can thank him (and a few others) that the constitution is free from religious doctrine.
Both Unitarians and Quakers welcome Atheists and Humanists into their congregation.
Although all Quakers in previous centuries, and most today, recognize Quakerism as a Christian movement, a few Friends (principally in some Liberal Meetings in the United States and the United Kingdom) now consider themselves universalist, agnostic, atheist, secular humanist, postchristian, or Nontheist Friend, or do not accept any religious label. Calls for Quakerism to include non-Christians go back at least as far as 1870, but this phenomenon has become increasingly evident during the latter half of the 20th century and the opening years of the 21st century, and is still controversial among Friends. An especially notable example of this is that of Friends who actively identify as members of a faith other than Christianity, such as Islam or Buddhism.
IvesCardin08 saidSCIENCE AND ANYTHING SPIRITUAL IS SHEER STUPIDITY! THE IRONY....UGH.
TAKE A CLASS-READ A TEXTBOOK- YOU WILL LEARN THAT ONCE YOU UNDERSTAND THE BUILDING BLOCKS OF MATH AND CHEMICALS (& NOT A HIGH SCHOOL UNDERSTANDING) - IT IS SO FAR BEYOND ANYTHING EVEN THE WORLD'S BRIGHTEST MINDS WILL EVER COMPREHEND IN YOUR LIFETIME! HOW MANY TIMES DID I SIT IN CLASS ASKING PROFESSORS "WHY?" DOES THIS SINGLE CHEMICAL REACTION BROKEN DOWN TO ITS VERY ELECTRON MOVEMENT GO AGAINST EVERYTHING CLAIMED AS FACT TO ONLY HEAR "WE HAVE NO IDEA SO WE ARE JUST ASSUMING DUE TO THE OUTCOME, WE DON'T KNOW THE MID-PROCESS, IT'S A HUGE GUESS"
SCIENCE IS FILLED WITH MORE EXCEPTIONS TO THE ORGANIC CHEMICAL RULES THAN FRENCH IS TO CONJUGATION OF ITS VERBS!
SOMETIMES I'M AMAZED BY THE IGNORANCE AND LACK OF RESPECT IN THESE THREADS. AS GAY MEN WE SHOULD TEACH TOLERANCE.
Honestly, I found nothing offensive about this at all. BLOODY HYSTERICAL! An absolute true representation of the moronacy of the religious. EVERY SINGLE predjudice we face today stems from religion and the worship of the nonsensicle (spelling?) thing people call god. It bloody amazes me that in that in this modern day and age, people are still daft enough to believe in such superstition/rubbish! -Keith
And once again you have managed to flummoxed me. I'm trully flummoxed, Absofreakinlutely floored.
You are prejuidice - well heck let's be honest you are a bigot.
You don't belive God exists and religion is for morons and you are too smart for that ...
So where da heck did you get your prejuidice from?
[/quote]
You say I'm a bigot because of the thread where I said I don't find black men attractive? Get over it. That doesn't make me a bigot.
But I ABSOLUTELY DO believe that religion is for morons. You people waste so much of your short time on this planet sitting in a bloody church praying to some crap in the "heavens" It's comical yet very sad.
My only predjudices are with religious idiots, homophobes and repuGlicans. I read all of your posts on religion. You are a religious fanatic that loves to hear himself like most religious dullards.
(Although many, MANY of your posts are so not christian like at all. Imagine that...a hypocritical christian. Bloody shocking!)
interesting to read how some people say that the religious fanatics will be the end of us all. I agree, FANATICISM in ALL forms will be the end of us all.
besides, what is the answer to the ultimate question: what should we call ourselves?
personally i think the allied atheist alliance is the best option. death to the united atheist alliance
SO INCREDIBLY OFFENSIVE AND INCORRECT! SIMPLY NOT TRUE!
I AM A GAY MAN & A CHRISTIAN & I HAVE STUDIED MICRO BIOLOGY, ORGANIC & INORGANIC CHEMISTRY, PHYSICS & CALCULUS ON CANADIAN UNIVERSITY LEVELS!
STOP PIGEON-HOLING EVERY CHRISTIAN CAUSE YOU SAW SOME HICK ON TV SAY SOMETHING INCREDIBLY STUPID! I BET YOU BELIEVE EVERY MUSLIM IS A TERRORIST!
I SPEAK TO SO MANY PEOPLE WHO KNOW ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT SCIENCE OR MATH AND CLAIM EVOLUTION/SCIENCE AND ANYTHING SPIRITUAL IS SHEER STUPIDITY! THE IRONY....UGH.
TAKE A CLASS-READ A TEXTBOOK- YOU WILL LEARN THAT ONCE YOU UNDERSTAND THE BUILDING BLOCKS OF MATH AND CHEMICALS (& NOT A HIGH SCHOOL UNDERSTANDING) - IT IS SO FAR BEYOND ANYTHING EVEN THE WORLD'S BRIGHTEST MINDS WILL EVER COMPREHEND IN YOUR LIFETIME! HOW MANY TIMES DID I SIT IN CLASS ASKING PROFESSORS "WHY?" DOES THIS SINGLE CHEMICAL REACTION BROKEN DOWN TO ITS VERY ELECTRON MOVEMENT GO AGAINST EVERYTHING CLAIMED AS FACT TO ONLY HEAR "WE HAVE NO IDEA SO WE ARE JUST ASSUMING DUE TO THE OUTCOME, WE DON'T KNOW THE MID-PROCESS, IT'S A HUGE GUESS"
SCIENCE IS FILLED WITH MORE EXCEPTIONS TO THE ORGANIC CHEMICAL RULES THAN FRENCH IS TO CONJUGATION OF ITS VERBS!
SOMETIMES I'M AMAZED BY THE IGNORANCE AND LACK OF RESPECT IN THESE THREADS. AS GAY MEN WE SHOULD TEACH TOLERANCE.
PLEASE DO NOT TAKE PARTS OF MY POST OUT OF CONTEXT
Sheesh. And writing all in uppercase was supposed to make you heard?
And no, read my post again. I actually included EVERY BLOODY RELIGION IN IT in praise not in ridicule. In fact my entire post was about reconciling spiritual belief with science. You somehow managed to bypass that and just saw my colorful pictures.
I was not poking fun at all Christians. I was poking fun at the Catholic clergy and their 'laws', and the way they have made no move whatsoever to admonish their followers who rabidly claim that the Earth is flat, that anyone not of their faith is bound for hell. Why would you be insulted by that? Unless you are a young earth creationist yourself, you aren't even included in that subset.
Tell me, is the Earth flat? No. Is that a hole in science then? No. Did dinosaurs exist? Yes. Is that a hole in science? No. Did human beings coexist with dinosaurs? No. Is that a hole in science? No. Is the Earth really only 6000 years old? No. Is that a hole in science? No. So why in the blazes is it still not accepted by creationist? Much less the leaders of the religions of these people?
You are a microbiologist, a chemist, a physicist. Really? At 27? No, you studied it. That doesn't make you a scientist. I'm college educated too, y'know. So help me jeebus, here's to a pissing contest then:
I studied Physics, Statistics, Algebra, Logic, Trigonometry (not Calculus though, my course not being a 'hard' science, although we did have Calculus in high school), Inorganic Chemistry, Organic Chemistry, General Psychology, General Biology, Microbiology, Histology, Comparative Anatomy, General Zoology, Invertebrate Zoology, Vertebrate Zoology, General Botany, Plant Morphology, Principles of Genetics, Evolutionary Science, General Ecology, World Literature, not mentioning the basic subjects.
And later on when I shifted courses (for practical reasons - namely making sure I would get a job after graduation) Computer Programming, Multimedia Design and Development, Accounting, Computer Networking, Business Information Management, Structured Cabling, oh etc. etc. etc. you get the point. (In case you're wondering about my courses: BS Biology + Computer Systems Design & Programming)
Does that make me a physicist? A statistician? A mathematician? A chemist? No. We are more or less on the same levels. So don't try the argument of being superior in learning on me. I may not be a biologist per se. But I know my biology.
None of those disciplines you enumerated are directly affected by this (except perhaps... Physics, but it rarely comes under attack by fundamentalists because almost all of it are beyond laymen's understanding anyway). None of those contradict the Bible as obviously as does other sciences: Paleontology, Geology, Astronomy, Biology, Radiology, Genetics, etc.
If religions and scientists were debating on the merit of why a certain molecule is levorotatory or dextrorotatory then perhaps I may have misgivings in both and understand your point. But they aren't. They aren't arguing about arcane stuff nobody knows the answer to, they are arguing about things ANYBODY can see the answers to, and yet organized religion will NOT give way.
Science has holes, but at least it acknowledges those gaps. Never have I heard it claim it was omniscient, a fact mirrored by your professors. Religion has gaping maws. But when does it even mention that? I have yet to meet a religious saint, prophet, or member of clergy say four simple words that would have added so much credibility: "I DO NOT KNOW"
Read my post again. IN CONTEXT. And tell me why you were so insulted by it. You have education, please don't tell me you're a creationist. Because those pictures were aimed at creationists. Not Christians in general.
Again, I was trying to reconcile faith with science. I was actually preaching tolerance even. So yes.
READ MY POST AGAIN. THIS TIME, INCLUDING THE WORDS.
Thank you.
And I'm off this thread too. I'll take my discussion with Lost_And_Found in private email.
Sedative said: PLEASE DO NOT TAKE PARTS OF MY POST OUT OF CONTEXT Sheesh. And writing all in uppercase was supposed to make you heard
Before I even begin, I just want to say what a condescending response you have written here and right after your first 2 sentences we find the first 2 contractions. Negativity towards the use of uppercase which you then use yourself even going so far as to make it red. Let me quote your own words back at you "Sheesh". All while you then insinuate that the use of them would not enable my voice to be heard...which clearly it was loud and clear. What a VERY LONG reply you've written (directed entirely at me btw) because you felt my post was an attack entirely directed at yourself which it wasn't. Strange. Notice how my original post does not, nor ever did, include your name. Did you draw those drawings? No. Did I suggest you drew them? No. Was I speaking directly to you? No. Did I add your name to the top of my post? No. But since you'd like this to be direct....Let's find the rest of the contradiction shall we?
And no, read my post again. I actually included EVERY BLOODY RELIGION IN IT in praise not in ridicule. In fact my entire post was about reconciling spiritual belief with science. You somehow managed to bypass that and just saw my colorful pictures.
More angry, condescending statements and were only in the second paragraph. Praise? Calling any religion EVERY BLOODY RELIGION doesn't resemble praise. Funny, I don't see the pictures you posted mocking anyone of all religions, or just mocking someone of a religion outside of Christianity. Nope, just 2 full pictures mocking the stereotype of what non-believers or atheists think Christians are. A joke you have taken the liking to and perpetuate. You would think if you spoke of Christianity the way you claim to praise it, then you'd leave out comments other RealJock'ers who are Christians would find offensive. I must have mistaken you for another poster on this site who has written about Christianity this way in other threads. After all, these are your words:
"LOL indeed. If I died and found out that there really was a God, and that he was exactly like the God in the Bible, even if I somehow find entrance to heaven I'd rebel and move to hell."
Let's be real here...the only 1 god of the "Bible" is the Christian god, the bible being the only source of Christian faith. Therefore, Christianity as a faith, is what you are referring to as that God is the god you are speaking of. You proclaim "that if he was the only God then you would rather be in eternal torment than with him" suggesting that the Christian god is worse than eternal torment....and that is what you call praise?.....again your words...Sheesh. That sounds nothing like praise. That sounds like disdain and well thought-out hatred. How is this any different than saying something like: If there really is a president and he is like former President Bush I'd move to Iran where the government is tormenting its own people. Sorry but CLEARLY you've yet again contradicted yourself. Bottom line: Either you do not understand the meaning of "praise" or your posted pictures were offensive and you'll belittle anyone who disagrees with you (instead of just disagreeing). Yet clearly they depict a Christian kneeling before the cross of Jesus (which means so much to a Christian) with the joke referring to his intelligence. Spin it however you want but if you cannot see those pics display feelings of contempt towards Christians to make them feel inferior and stupid...then why did you even respond to my opinion/post? You knew what you were posting and you now feel you have to defend it anyway you can.
I was not poking fun at all Christians. I was poking fun at the Catholic clergy and their 'laws', and the way they have made no move whatsoever to admonish their followers who rabidly claim that the Earth is flat, that anyone not of their faith is bound for hell. Why would you be insulted by that? Unless you are a young earth creationist yourself, you aren't even included in that subset. Tell me, is the Earth flat? No. Is that a hole in science then? No. Did dinosaurs exist? Yes. Is that a hole in science? No. Did human beings coexist with dinosaurs? No. Is that a hole in science? No. Is the Earth really only 6000 years old? No. Is that a hole in science? No. So why in the blazes is it still not accepted by creationist? Much less the leaders of the religions of these people?
Christianity does not teach the earth is flat. (I do not know of a single Catholic who has been taught the world is flat. You are stretching the truth to prove a point you fail to prove) The Bible does not teach that dinosaurs did not exist. They are even described in the bible-just read it. It does not teach that human beings coexisted with dinosaurs. It does not teach that the Earth is only 6000 years old. I don't think you know what you're talking about. I think you have read way too much "online wiki-pedia" information without actually talking to many Christians. I'm right here, get a new perspective on what it means to be a Christian. It's also called showing RESPECT which is different from mocking their Lord Jesus by calling him Jeebus in the paragraph below.
You are a microbiologist, a chemist, a physicist. Really? At 27? No, you studied it. That doesn't make you a scientist. I'm college educated too, y'know. So help me jeebus, here's to a pissing contest then: I studied Physics, Statistics, Algebra, Logic, Trigonometry (not Calculus though, my course not being a 'hard' science, although we did have Calculus in high school), Inorganic Chemistry, Organic Chemistry, General Psychology, General Biology, Microbiology, Histology, Comparative Anatomy, General Zoology, Invertebrate Zoology, Vertebrate Zoology, General Botany, Plant Morphology, Principles of Genetics, Evolutionary Science, General Ecology, World Literature, not mentioning the basic subjects.
Yes we get it, you like to make others feel inferior by being condescending towards them with your words. Congratulations, it's how you desperately try to get your point across. ugh. Your comment about my age is enough to warrant that statement. Where to start? Where did I claim I was a microbiologist, a chemist and a physicist? Still waiting for when I claimed that? Can't find it? That's because it's not there. That's really great that you studied those classes as education is extremely important. You listing those classes, extremely irrelevant. What pissing contest are you talking of?...wow, you cannot see how rude you are sometimes. I wrote of studying such classes so that I would not post as someone without a scientific background when suggesting that as a Christian I'm insulted when others mock my faith when it's very clear that science has MANY holes in it's theories.
And later on when I shifted courses (for practical reasons - namely making sure I would get a job after graduation) Computer Programming, Multimedia Design and Development, Accounting, Computer Networking, Business Information Management, Structured Cabling, oh etc. etc. etc. you get the point. (In case you're wondering about my courses: BS Biology + Computer Systems Design & Programming)
Irrelevant.
Does that make me a physicist? A statistician? A mathematician? A chemist? No. We are more or less on the same levels. So don't try the argument of being superior in learning on me. I may not be a biologist per se. But I know my biology.
What are you even talking about? Fly off the handle much? When did I argue I was superior? Don't put words in my mouth. Take your own advice and reread what I originally wrote and please spare me from your spin on my own words.
None of those disciplines you enumerated are directly affected by this (except perhaps... Physics, but it rarely comes under attack by fundamentalists because almost all of it are beyond laymen's understanding anyway). None of those contradict the Bible as obviously as does other sciences: Paleontology, Geology, Astronomy, Biology, Radiology, Genetics, etc.
Completely disagree 1000%. Are you sure you know what you're talking about? CHEMISTRY is ONLY the ENTIRE BASIS of everything and without going back to it you have no idea of what you are talking about. Biology is a bi-product of Organic Chemistry for example and the rest of the others you have listed follow suite. Physics is the rate in which the chemicals react whether in molecular form or something as large as a planet. Everything you listed would NOT exist without chemicals in their sub-atomic forms to make it up. Break everything down to sub-atomic particles and you will know why everything DOES ANYTHING it does. The fact that you say the discipline of (Inorganic, Organic or Physical) Chemistry is not directly affected by this.....maybe we aren't on the same educational level after all.....yikes. No sciences you describe contradict the bible. Again, the bible doesn't teach the earth is 6000 years old, the bible doesn't teach that dinosaurs didn't exist. That's your opinion shared by other atheists to disprove God. In my opinion and from what I've studied, science and faith pretty much go hand in hand and those that say otherwise really haven't studied each enough to see that. If you believe in Evolution, more power to you...Do not INSULT someone who logically believes it is not correct. There are many non-christian Scientists who believe Evolution is hokey at best. I have met several of them over the years. They do not believe in creation either. They simply say "there isn't enough evidence to support either."
If religions and scientists were debating on the merit of why a certain molecule is levorotatory or dextrorotatory then perhaps I may have misgivings in both and understand your point. But they aren't. They aren't arguing about arcane stuff nobody knows the answer to, they are arguing about things ANYBODY can see the answers to, and yet organized religion will NOT give way.
Again, your opinion, not fact. Irrelevant. That's like me saying "If religion and science were debating on the merit of why Jesus died for our sins then perhaps I may have misgivings in both and understand your point." It makes no sense for religion to focus on chemicals no more than for science to focus on religion simply because religion is not the study of chemicals and vice versa. What is it exactly that EVERYONE can see? You again assume that everyone thinks like you and there is no God because you yourself do not have physical proof you can look at with your eyes. You think only because you can physically see things that they exist? So can you physically see thoughts? No. Can you physically see time? No. Can you physically see the other side of the Earth from where you are? No. But you can see the outcomes of each, as you can see the outcomes of the belief in god. Who is to say one is not real? My father thinks being gay is not real because he cannot see it and cannot experience it. Yet you would say different. I have experienced God. Who are you to tell me I am wrong? With your theory I guess there is a lot of things that do not exist. How are you then any different than the claims of the flat earth? Why would religion and science debate when a lot of what they say is the same but it's all said differently. Do they need to debate on the spinning rotation of a molecule? No. As a man who has studied both Christianity and Science I know that there missing parts in both stories but that does not mean either is false. I would never insult any form of intelligence because I do not understand it, you should try that. Faith is needed to understand the bible. Positive Experiments are needed to believe science. Yet Science is only of it's time and in the moment as it is always changing. What you believe today is not what you will believe tomorrow. Here's an easy example: Don't tell me you're no different than a doctor of the 1950's who believes smoking was not harmful to a pregnant woman only because at the time it was scientifically believed to be true.
Science has holes, but at least it acknowledges those gaps. Never have I heard it claim it was omniscient, a fact mirrored by your professors. Religion has gaping maws. But when does it even mention that? I have yet to meet a religious saint, prophet, or member of clergy say four simple words that would have added so much credibility: "I DO NOT KNOW".
Science has HUGE holes not just holes so don't write such bias statements. Day in and day out I constantly hear Evolutionists, Atheists and Scientists claim that science has ZERO HOLES and that it is flawless. If they really felt this way they would not feel the need to attack faith. They would just let its perfection speak for itself. Your paragraph here shows you have not had much contact with many biblical based Christians. I'll be the first to say there are missing pieces to the puzzle in the bible but that doesn't disprove it either. IF you think like that, you have to throw all science out the window because it's the same reason you throw faith out. Here Sed, "I DO NOT KNOW! NEITHER DO YOU!" Did it make you change your thought? No, so don't claim it will. Why do you look for a "religious saint, prophet or member of clergy" to say this to you? They are nothing but mere men with flaws no different than yourself. What makes their opinion on scripture more relevant than yours? You do not need to hear them say anything, and even if you did, you've already made up your mind anyway.
Read my post again. IN CONTEXT. And tell me why you were so insulted by it. You have education, please don't tell me you're a creationist. Because those pictures were aimed at creationists. Not Christians in general.
You fail to see that a Christian believes in god that created life. Therefore all Christians are creationists. God created us in his image. But the way you write "you have education, please don't tell me you're a creationist" already insults my point of view, my faith, my intellect, my beliefs, my family, and ultimately me. I completely believe God created Earth and life and everything we know. Therefore he created Science and the way we came to be.
Again, I was trying to reconcile faith with science. I was actually preaching tolerance even. So yes.
You weren't reconciling faith with science, you were contrasting them and making it clear which you felt was right and which you clearly felt was for the less intelligent. You were insulting my faith and making fun of a belief system you can't comprehend. You have freewill to insult it. I have freewill to defend it. But don't insult my intelligence by back peddling out of your joke and using my age and education to belittle me.
READ MY POST AGAIN. THIS TIME, INCLUDING THE WORDS
Well I read it again, and it just sounds worse now that you have displayed new contradictions and irrelevant arguments. I suggest you do the same.
Thank you.
Thank You.
And I'm off this thread too. I'll take my discussion with Lost_And_Found in private email.
Blackguy4you />SCIENCE AND ANYTHING SPIRITUAL IS SHEER STUPIDITY! THE IRONY....UGH.
TAKE A CLASS-READ A TEXTBOOK- YOU WILL LEARN THAT ONCE YOU UNDERSTAND THE BUILDING BLOCKS OF MATH AND CHEMICALS (& NOT A HIGH SCHOOL UNDERSTANDING) - IT IS SO FAR BEYOND ANYTHING EVEN THE WORLD'S BRIGHTEST MINDS WILL EVER COMPREHEND IN YOUR LIFETIME! HOW MANY TIMES DID I SIT IN CLASS ASKING PROFESSORS "WHY?" DOES THIS SINGLE CHEMICAL REACTION BROKEN DOWN TO ITS VERY ELECTRON MOVEMENT GO AGAINST EVERYTHING CLAIMED AS FACT TO ONLY HEAR "WE HAVE NO IDEA SO WE ARE JUST ASSUMING DUE TO THE OUTCOME, WE DON'T KNOW THE MID-PROCESS, IT'S A HUGE GUESS"
SCIENCE IS FILLED WITH MORE EXCEPTIONS TO THE ORGANIC CHEMICAL RULES THAN FRENCH IS TO CONJUGATION OF ITS VERBS!
SOMETIMES I'M AMAZED BY THE IGNORANCE AND LACK OF RESPECT IN THESE THREADS. AS GAY MEN WE SHOULD TEACH TOLERANCE.
Honestly, I found nothing offensive about this at all. BLOODY HYSTERICAL! An absolute true representation of the moronacy of the religious. EVERY SINGLE predjudice we face today stems from religion and the worship of the nonsensicle (spelling?) thing people call god. It bloody amazes me that in that in this modern day and age, people are still daft enough to believe in such superstition/rubbish! -Keith
And once again you have managed to flummoxed me. I'm trully flummoxed, Absofreakinlutely floored.
You are prejuidice - well heck let's be honest you are a bigot.
You don't belive God exists and religion is for morons and you are too smart for that ...
So where da heck did you get your prejuidice from?
You say I'm a bigot because of the thread where I said I don't find black men attractive? Get over it. That doesn't make me a bigot.
But I ABSOLUTELY DO believe that religion is for morons. You people waste so much of your short time on this planet sitting in a bloody church praying to some crap in the "heavens" It's comical yet very sad.
My only predjudices are with religious idiots, homophobes and repuGlicans. I read all of your posts on religion. You are a religious fanatic that loves to hear himself like most religious dullards.
(Although many, MANY of your posts are so not christian like at all. Imagine that...a hypocritical christian. Bloody shocking!)
Cheers, Keith [/quote]
Fanatic about Christ? oh absofreakinglutely- He's all that and a bag o chips!!
You are a bigot of the highest degree - as a matter of fact you and that other guy from somewhere in texas - you know ...the one who constantly calls people fat asses - can practically be twins.
So once again, if you don't believe in God- because after all as you state "it's just crap in the sky"; and if anything religious is for morons and you are not a moron as you tell us ad nauseam -yet you are one of the most prejuidiced persons I have had the misfortune of noticing - where da heck did your prejuidice come from?
Quite a conundrum dear holmes, quite a conundrum ...
@IvesCardin: I praise what can be praised about religion. I ridicule what deserves to be ridiculed. Don't expect anything else.
You expect me to praise the Biblical God for the trials of Job all so he can prove his faith? For the commandments to sell your disobedient daughters? To stone disobedient children? For the commandments to kill adulterers, unmarried women who lost their virginity, people who do work on a sunday, men who sleep with men? The commandments to slaughter every man and woman in nearby villages just so the men of israel can take wives? The blatant misogyny in which it actually says that men are worth more than women and that they exist only to service men? The detailed instructions on what you do with a captive wife taken by war which encourages you to RAPE her? The commandment to burn alive prostitutes? That a man who kills a servant if undiscovered for two days must receive no punishment? The antisemitism after Jesus' death that actually became part of the reason for why the Nazis did what they did (and yes it's written in the Bible)? That's only a few of those.
I could go a whole day enumerating why I would rebel against an old testament god if he in fact exists. That wasn't part of my original post, but hey, you quoted me from another thread, so fair game.
Oh and please, it was aimed at me. You quoted me. That's the way it works in the internet y'know. You even accused me of thinking every muslim was a terrorist. So it was supposed to be aimed in the general wind's direction? Don't think so. I'm pretty sure the 'YOU' was singular. Not to mention this: "(& NOT A HIGH SCHOOL UNDERSTANDING)" again after some "You's"; what's that about? That because I'm in a third world country, I obviously have no access to higher education and have never read college level textbooks? And I'm not supposed to be insulted? Not to mention accusing me of reading too much 'online wiki-pedia information' just now. The internet here is only a few years old, bud. I actually read books... including the Bible. Shocking, huh?
Yes, the Bible does logically make a timeline of 6000 years, and yes the Bible does mention that the Earth has four corners, and yes the Bible does imply that the sun revolves around the earth when god supposedly made it 'stand still'. Where else would young earthists take their ideas from? The news?
It was you who flaunted your knowledge on Chemistry and Physics first and then used that as a basis to pronounce that science is just as sketchy as religion. It is sketchy. But not in the ways you are implying.
Chemistry and Physics may be the basis for everything in Biology and the Physical world, but knowing the building blocks doesn't exactly make you an expert on everything else. Much less knowing them because you happen to take them in college.
Can you see the pattern on the cloth if you only know how one thread looks like? I professed ignorance in Physics earlier, and now you claim to know Biology because you happen to take Chemistry? And then you accuse me of being condescending? Whoa.
Yes, you may have experienced God, but it doesn't make any of those passages I enumerated above any more palatable. I have no quarrel with people who have spiritual beliefs because as Lost_And_Found and Active_And_Fit pointed out there truly are some admirable things religion have contributed to the human thought, but I can't deny that people who believe everything the Bible says literally make me angry. Because if I don't get angry, that's tantamount to agreeing with the passages I quoted above.
No I am not backpedaling out of my joke. I truly think young earthists are crazy. And please don't insult my intelligence either. Would I have said those things if I also did not study the Bible? I do not make groundless accusations. It's not only you who has seen both sides of the fence and then some (I noticed you only defended Christianity, I wonder what you think the Shinto creation myth, the Hindu one, etc.). As for not having had much contact with biblically based christians... LOL. I'm in the Philippines. I only know one other atheist and two agnostics in my entire circle of friends, family, and acquaintances. I grew up living, breathing, eating Christianity.
If that makes me a bigot then so it will be. If they can easily tear down whole fields of study simply so that their scriptures can fit in with new discoveries then I have no problem tearing down their arguments. Every time I see a creationist museum showing an exhibit of cavemen shopping for some Tyrannosaurus steak, it is an insult. Everytime I see creationist 'scientists' who happen to believe in 'hexagonal water' and hold several bogus PhD's find some alleged fossilized tracks of humans and dinosaurs together and then refuse to let real scientists see it, it is an insult (and yes I'm talking about a real person, one of the worst offenders out there, responsible for vandalizing a lot of legitimate paleontological sites simply so he can prove that the earth is only 6000 years old).
And yes, Christians are all 'creationists' in a sense. But not to the point of the sheer stupidity and mockery of the young earthists and hardline garden of eve believers. If you are equating your everyday christian with young earthists, then you are insulting them, not me.
IvesCardin08WHY?
You really have to ask? You aren't gonna convince me and I'm not going to convince you either. Who are we kidding here? Instead of accusing me of intolerance because I posted some cartoons based on reality, why not simply defend it with your own arguments of why certain scientific stuff are ridiculous? Since when is religion off-limits to challenges?
I have one last favor to ask: Please enumerate what these 'HUGE holes' are in Science. So huge that I must acknowledge that flat earthists and young earthists also have merit and that I must not try and debunk them even as they brainwash a whole new generation of children. At least that will be constructive, rather than just getting angry at me for daring to point out certain irrational stuff in religions and trying to invoke the protection of tolerance.
Oh and P.S. I think I have to make this clear one more time: I have never claimed that I know for sure that a God does not exist. Never. There is neither proof that he does or proof that he doesn't. He may or he may not, he does not factor into my life.
Anywho, all I'm trying to say is that you can't easily summarize it into: Science has flaws, Religions have flaws, therefore they must be equal.
That is a gross oversimplification. For example stars billions of light years away shine down on us and that light can only travel at a certain distance for a certain amount of time. How could the Earth only be 6000 years old if I can see the Andromeda Galaxy at 2.5 million light years away? That is only one example of things you can measure on your own if you had the will to do it. Tell me of a similar proof from Creationist 'science' and I'll concede that they are equal.
P.P.S. 'EVERY BLOODY RELIGION' is an insult? Jeez. You really are thin skinned huh. Quick English lesson: 'Bloody' is British slang used as an intensive to emphasize the following word. It does not mean smeared with blood, full of blood, or anything pertaining to blood.
If religion wants to survive, it better learn to accept things like this. None of us are living in a vacuum anymore. It's not only dealing with secular concepts, it's also dealing with other religions. If you have the balls to claim every other religion is a lie, at least have the balls to not cry foul every time someone else tells you the same thing.
I've heard that joke also 
We only think it's special because all we ever know are ourselves. We have nothing to compare it with. 
