kind of having a hard time wording this question...
Just throwing it out there, but how many atheists are confident enough to say that they would not inherit the kingdom of god or accept if they were wrong.
I for one can gladly tell god to go fuck himself.
I am confident enough to say that heaven, god and any other fairy tale are ridiculous ideas created by humans.
back to the question to atheists,
are you confident enough to deny entrance into eternal happiness or i guess this is kind of unpalatable for gay people but can you say no to 72 virgins?
With confidence, I'm ripping up my ticket to heaven that was force-fed down my throat.
If the god is anything like the one protrayed in the bible, then if he were real, i would be his enemy. It would be the only moral position to oppose such a being.
LOL indeed. If I died and found out that there really was a God, and that he was exactly like the God in the Bible, even if I somehow find entrance to heaven I'd rebel and move to hell.
Regarding heavenly salvation: I'd take it, but I'd have to read the contract fully before I entered. There may be a hell of a neighborhood association contract. Maybe Satan's burg is rent-controlled or something.
I'm really trying to understand the psychology behind your beliefs but I can't. Being an atheist myself, It just doesn't make sense to deny God if he were to exist.
cruelsummer saidI'm really trying to understand the psychology behind your beliefs but I can't. Being an atheist myself, It just doesn't make sense to deny God if he were to exist.
This is all rather interesting. Sounds like an angry disappointed atheist who needs some deep down healing.
I can. People can't accept that when you're dead, you're dead. You have no consciousness, thus you are not cognizant, thus you do not exist.
It's the same as before you were born, there is nothing. To some people, that thought is scary, so they rely on the comfort of myths to help them deal with the fear.
If you're an atheist, you (depending on your formulation) either a) don't believe in God, or b) believe in a lack of a God. As far as I can tell, though, the thought experiment is that you find out that there is a God because you die and oh, look, there is an afterlife.
At that point, the only mature thing to do is admit that you were wrong. That doesn't mean you need to begin worshiping God; Delivis and Sedative both make reasonable points about finding the Old Testament God pretty immoral. But it doesn't take balls, as you put it, to refuse to admit that you're wrong when you have proof that you were wrong. It takes willful stupidity to do that.
Essentially, in your thought experiment you're saying that people should deny reality because it doesn't fit with their preconceived beliefs regarding religion. As an atheist, isn't that one of the major things you dislike about the devoutly theistic?
MunchingZombie saidBetter to reign in hell than to serve in heaven.
Ditto. If the Abraham god turns out to be real then it is an indecent injustice that he created us and the Universe. I would stand with anyone in opposition to his rule.
If I died and found out that the god and heaven and hell were exactly like described in the old testament I would fully Freak! I am not sure what I would do but worshipping such a nasty, warring. immoral thing would not be on the plate.
MSUBioNerd saidThis question fundamentally doesn't make sense.
If you're an atheist, you (depending on your formulation) either a) don't believe in God, or b) believe in a lack of a God. As far as I can tell, though, the thought experiment is that you find out that there is a God because you die and oh, look, there is an afterlife.
At that point, the only mature thing to do is admit that you were wrong. That doesn't mean you need to begin worshiping God; Delivis and Sedative both make reasonable points about finding the Old Testament God pretty immoral. But it doesn't take balls, as you put it, to refuse to admit that you're wrong when you have proof that you were wrong. It takes willful stupidity to do that.
Essentially, in your thought experiment you're saying that people should deny reality because it doesn't fit with their preconceived beliefs regarding religion. As an atheist, isn't that one of the major things you dislike about the devoutly theistic?
Not necessarily so.
Quoting Arthur C. Clarke:
" 1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong. 2. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible. 3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Given point Three, simply because it is demonstrated that primitive fantasties can be materialized in and of itself is not proof of the existence of an "afterlife".
MSUBioNerd saidThis question fundamentally doesn't make sense.
If you're an atheist, you (depending on your formulation) either a) don't believe in God, or b) believe in a lack of a God. As far as I can tell, though, the thought experiment is that you find out that there is a God because you die and oh, look, there is an afterlife.
At that point, the only mature thing to do is admit that you were wrong. That doesn't mean you need to begin worshiping God; Delivis and Sedative both make reasonable points about finding the Old Testament God pretty immoral. But it doesn't take balls, as you put it, to refuse to admit that you're wrong when you have proof that you were wrong. It takes willful stupidity to do that.
Essentially, in your thought experiment you're saying that people should deny reality because it doesn't fit with their preconceived beliefs regarding religion. As an atheist, isn't that one of the major things you dislike about the devoutly theistic?
TronicIt's the same as before you were born, there is nothing.
I think its clear the only RATIONAL perspective on the afterlife is agnosticism the rest is simply a bunch of people purporting to believe, to varying degrees, that they have some form of answer to that which, by definition they cannot know. Why can we just not simply be happy accepting that certain things are unknowable, and subsequently make the best of what it is we have.
More to the topic however, if I were to die and find out that the Abrahamic God was infact real, I wouldnt repent, as Rousseau taught morality is not determined by power, fight the good fight and all that.
Plus, riddle me this. Why do we think that Lucifer is so bad? I'm just throwing it out there, an angel who reputedly stands up to an immoral god, surely we have to wonder. And lets not forget, one gets all ones information on Lucifer from the Bible, written so one hears with the inspiration of his enemy, who is known to hold long and disproportionate grudges
Sedative saidLOL indeed. If I died and found out that there really was a God, and that he was exactly like the God in the Bible, even if I somehow find entrance to heaven I'd rebel and move to hell.
you wouldn't have to rebel- you would have done all the rebelling you could have ever done before you get to stand infront of Him. at that stage your fate is sealed.
MSUBioNerd saidThis question fundamentally doesn't make sense.
If you're an atheist, you (depending on your formulation) either a) don't believe in God, or b) believe in a lack of a God. As far as I can tell, though, the thought experiment is that you find out that there is a God because you die and oh, look, there is an afterlife.
At that point, the only mature thing to do is admit that you were wrong. That doesn't mean you need to begin worshiping God; Delivis and Sedative both make reasonable points about finding the Old Testament God pretty immoral. But it doesn't take balls, as you put it, to refuse to admit that you're wrong when you have proof that you were wrong. It takes willful stupidity to do that.
Essentially, in your thought experiment you're saying that people should deny reality because it doesn't fit with their preconceived beliefs regarding religion. As an atheist, isn't that one of the major things you dislike about the devoutly theistic?
Doesn't make sense to me either, but hey I'm a God believer so perhaps it's just not supposed to
Sedative saidLOL indeed. If I died and found out that there really was a God, and that he was exactly like the God in the Bible, even if I somehow find entrance to heaven I'd rebel and move to hell.
you wouldn't have to rebel- you would have done all the rebelling you could have ever done before you get to stand infront of Him. at that stage your fate is sealed.
Ummm...right... This is just your opinion, and no proof. Just so much fantasy talk.
Sedative saidLOL indeed. If I died and found out that there really was a God, and that he was exactly like the God in the Bible, even if I somehow find entrance to heaven I'd rebel and move to hell.
you wouldn't have to rebel- you would have done all the rebelling you could have ever done before you get to stand infront of Him. at that stage your fate is sealed.
Ummm...right... This is just your opinion, and no proof. Just so much fantasy talk.
Ah but there is proof- we will all die one day. Each of us will then discover the reality for ourselves. Can't ask for better proof than that!
This may sound contradictory, but I hope though that atheists and other non-believers in God are right
Well, I don't believe God is at all like the one the old testament makes god out to be, and I'm suspicious of the new testament as well.
Now here's a thought, perhaps god gives each of us the afterlife we prepare for. Believe it's all clouds and harps and that's what you want, and so it is.
Believe it's another level 'up' from here, and so it is.
Believe you will simply cease to exist and......
lol, I believe god is a little kinder than that.
As for the devil, I think that's another face of god for those that need and want abuse.
Hell? Whatever distresses you the most on a personal level.
Well, I don't believe God is at all like the one the old testament makes god out to be, and I'm suspicious of the new testament as well.
Now here's a thought, perhaps god gives each of us the afterlife we prepare for. Believe it's all clouds and harps and that's what you want, and so it is.
Believe it's another level 'up' from here, and so it is.
Believe you will simply cease to exist and......
lol, I believe god is a little kinder than that.
As for the devil, I think that's another face of god for those that need and want abuse.
Hell? Whatever distresses you the most on a personal level.
-Doug
Or believe that God is exactly who He says he is in the bible. You choose to reject Him and He gives you exactly what you choose.
Complete life without Him- which is exactly what hell is
Others have already made this point, and made it well, but it seems that the original question is flawed. If, after death, an atheist is confronted with a god, whether Abrahamic or other, that would seem to be fairly good proof of that god's existence. Thus, showing that the atheists beliefs were wrong. Rejecting that god in light of the new evidence would be foolishly dogmatic, and quite irrational.
Doing so would be no better than the many creationists who reject evolution or cosmology, even though both have a great deal of well-founded, scientific evidence that support them - unlike creationism.
I'm a rational person who very much prefers empirical evidence, but if one makes a compelling argument I'll consider it, and if one can show me that I'm wrong about something, I'll accept it. We'd all be better off if more people approached life that way, rather than being strictly dogmatic.
Sedative saidLOL indeed. If I died and found out that there really was a God, and that he was exactly like the God in the Bible, even if I somehow find entrance to heaven I'd rebel and move to hell.
you wouldn't have to rebel- you would have done all the rebelling you could have ever done before you get to stand infront of Him. at that stage your fate is sealed.
Ummm...right... This is just your opinion, and no proof. Just so much fantasy talk.
Ah but there is proof- we will all die one day. Each of us will then discover the reality for ourselves. Can't ask for better proof than that!
This may sound contradictory, but I hope though that atheists and other non-believers in God are right
Um... yes I would. Of course I'd believe, it's proof after all. BUT, as I said, if he was the same god as the one the people of the old testament worshiped, I'd rather rebel. Has anyone even asked why Lucifer rebelled? All you know is that it was pride. And that was enough to sentence him and his minions to an eternity of punishment apparently. A merciful god indeed.
Much better to be with the rebels in hell. Than stand with the god who condemned them, does not forgive and have the galls to demand we forgive each other, even as he prepares our fiery bath in hell.
But no matter. It's very Christian of you by the way to be of the 'You'll see! You will burn!' mentality. I bet it does your heart good to imagine us all roasting. Very Christian indeed.
My question barely made sense... like i said i'm having a hard time wording it
what i'm trying to say is, lets say god gave us all a ticket to heaven (like he says he does)
are you confident enough to tear it up while your still on earth/alive cuz you know u will never use it.
because lets be honest if u got up to the pearly gates i'm sure we'd all be like ok i was wrong serve me some philadelphia cream cheese from some angel named alfred like they did on the commercial.
im confident enough to say that there is no heaven and i would tear up my ticket
but if im wrong..... that i'd wanna go to heaven. but that wont happen
Okay, I understand now what you're asking. Since I require empirical evidence, and do not do any of the things that the Church(es) tell me I *should* do to gain entry into heaven (expcept live a good and "moral" life which i do without the belief in eternal reward for doing so), then I suspect I have already ipso facto torn up my ticket.
Sedative saidLOL indeed. If I died and found out that there really was a God, and that he was exactly like the God in the Bible, even if I somehow find entrance to heaven I'd rebel and move to hell.
you wouldn't have to rebel- you would have done all the rebelling you could have ever done before you get to stand infront of Him. at that stage your fate is sealed.
Ummm...right... This is just your opinion, and no proof. Just so much fantasy talk.
Ah but there is proof- we will all die one day. Each of us will then discover the reality for ourselves. Can't ask for better proof than that!
This may sound contradictory, but I hope though that atheists and other non-believers in God are right
Proof happens in the here and now, not at some point beyond death. There will be no 'reality' because you will be non-existent.
Sedative saidLOL indeed. If I died and found out that there really was a God, and that he was exactly like the God in the Bible, even if I somehow find entrance to heaven I'd rebel and move to hell.
you wouldn't have to rebel- you would have done all the rebelling you could have ever done before you get to stand infront of Him. at that stage your fate is sealed.
Ummm...right... This is just your opinion, and no proof. Just so much fantasy talk.
Ah but there is proof- we will all die one day. Each of us will then discover the reality for ourselves. Can't ask for better proof than that!
This may sound contradictory, but I hope though that atheists and other non-believers in God are right
Um... yes I would. Of course I'd believe, it's proof after all. BUT, as I said, if he was the same god as the one the people of the old testament worshiped, I'd rather rebel. Has anyone even asked why Lucifer rebelled? All you know is that it was pride. And that was enough to sentence him and his minions to an eternity of punishment apparently. A merciful god indeed.
Much better to be with the rebels in hell. Than stand with the god who condemned them, does not forgive and have the galls to demand we forgive each other, even as he prepares our fiery bath in hell.
But no matter. It's very Christian of you by the way to be of the 'You'll see! You will burn!' mentality. I bet it does your heart good to imagine us all roasting. Very Christian indeed.
i don't think you understand. when u die - the only thing you will be able to do is to wait for judgement from the creator. you can do nothing else. your fate is sealed when you close your eyes for the last time. believe or not it will not matter. there's no second chance.
we don't need to ask why lucifer rebelled. the bible already tells us. he rebelled because of pride. " I will exalt my throne above God and be God..." so he said. hmmmmmmmmm sounds rather like lots of humans doesn't it?
and you do realize there was a war in heaven? Of course He is a merciful God. Can you imagine one of his creation having the bloody nerve to attack Him to try to over throw Him??????? THE NERVE!!!!! If it were me I would have Lucifer and his minions in chains being tortured even now. But He didn't do that. Shows his mercy.
rebel in hell - you assume hell is going to be a fun place. you may want to read what the bible says hell will actually be like...
you keep saying God condemned.. . God condemns no one- he gives you a choice. you choose it - he gives you what you choose. How is that condemning you. You are the one who is condemning yourself!
Why would God go against your wishes. He wouldn't be much of a God if He were to do that!
It's all in what you believe in...if you cool with it and can live with it then so be it! Thus the reason religion is referred to as "beliefs".
"I had a dream I can buy my way to heaven When I awoke, I spent that on a necklace. I told God I'd be back in a second, Man it's so hard not to act reckless."
-Kanye West (he may think he is god...but I give him props on that line!)
Blackguy4you said your fate is sealed when you close your eyes for the last time. believe or not it will not matter. there's no second chance. ...
rebel in hell - you assume hell is going to be a fun place. you may want to read what the bible says hell will actually be like... ...
Why would God go against your wishes. He wouldn't be much of a God if He were to do that!
LOL. And you sound so sure of it too, have you been there? Yes I understand completely. And no the threat of judgment doesn't exactly make me more likely to convert. If anything else, it makes me wary of your religion.
Spare me the hell and brimstone stuff. Have you even asked how his own creation would even think of overthrowing him? He was supposed to be all powerful. Did he give free will to his angels? Why did the angels even have to go to war? So many questions, so little a book, and so silent a deity.
And forchrissakes, Christianity is supposed to be a monotheism. It sounds suspiciously like you do have at least two gods after all. And more besides.
God condemns no one... hm... really? I wonder how many savages died before Christianity even got off the Middle East. So many souls lost. They certainly weren't given a choice now, did they?
And come on! God would let me make the wrong choice so that I end up burning in eternity and he wouldn't even lift a finger? How nice of him. Especially since it was he who concocted the idea of eternal torment in the first place... or so YOU say.
It's kinda like being born gay now wouldn't it? I'm gay. I was born gay. I can't change the fact that I'm gay. But I'm supposed to be stoned to death for it as well as burn in hell for it. And of course, all I have to do to avoid that is to stop being gay and live a miserable life without even the certainty of knowing that there really was a heaven or that I was going to it. Easy huh?
I'd rather just live this life. Try being happy, try not to harm other people, try to make other people happy, be as good a person as I can be without relying on threats to make me good. Is that not good enough? Does your god demand me to throw all this life away so that I may prepare for a 'maybe' afterlife?
As for hell not being fun... have you REALLY read your bible? Or do you just listen to a priest spewing spittle over it?
The original version of hell in the old testament was actually NOT the fiery pits of eternal torment you so cherish in your mind. It was simply Sheol. The original Jewish hell. Simply limbo, much like the Greek Hades, and very much like the Catholic idea of the Purgatory. A place of conditional death. Where dead people go and well... stay dead. Unless they were the faithful and the righteous and then they will be resurrected. The concept of eternal punishment was a Christian invention. It started when christians, muslims, and some jews began to borrow the mythology of greece and neighboring tribes that it began to take on the appearance of a fiery place of torment. And then they began calling it by borrowed names and metaphorical names of real places - in this case Gehenna for both muslims and christians (after the garbage dumping site in Jerusalem - The Valley of Hinnom), and Tartaros and Hades which are both GREEK borrowed versions.
There is only ONE book in the Bible that calls Gehenna a lake of fire. All the other usages of Gehenna were metaphorical. Only in the Book of Revelations. A NEW TESTAMENT book. Written by men who have been influenced by the Greek ideas of hell. Even then this mention clearly delineates the difference between human souls who were thrown into it and the demon souls. When human souls were thrown in, Revelations always mentioned 'and this was second death'. Indicating a final annihilation with no hope of resurrection. NEVER did it say that human souls will be tortured forever and ever. This is mirrored in another mention of hell using a blatantly greek name this time: Tartaros. And this also only referred to demons. Never did it say that humans will be placed there when they die.
If you haven't figured it out by now, the modern Christian idea of hell actually has very little basis in the Bible, and has no basis whatsoever among Jews. Your idea of hell is based on Dante Alighieri's masterpiece, which is certainly NOT biblical.
Professor James Tabor,
The ancient Hebrews had no idea of an immortal soul living a full and vital life beyond death, nor of any resurrection or return from death. Human beings, like the beasts of the field, are made of "dust of the earth," and at death they return to that dust (Gen. 2:7; 3:19). The Hebrew word nephesh, traditionally translated "living soul" but more properly understood as "living creature," is the same word used for all breathing creatures and refers to nothing immortal...All the dead go down to Sheol, and there they lie in sleep together — whether good or evil, rich or poor, slave or free (Job 3:11-19). It is described as a region "dark and deep," "the Pit," and "the land of forgetfulness," cut off from both God and human life above (Pss. 6:5; 88:3-12). Though in some texts Yahweh's power can reach down to Sheol (Ps. 139:, the dominant idea is that the dead are abandoned forever. This idea of Sheol is negative in contrast to the world of life and light above, but there is no idea of judgment or of reward and punishment. If one faces extreme circumstances of suffering in the realm of the living above, as did Job, it can even be seen as a welcome relief from pain–see the third chapter of Job. But basically it is a kind of "nothingness," an existence that is barely existence at all, in which a "shadow" or "shade" of the former self survives (Ps. 88:10)
Stephen L. HarrisThe concept of eternal punishment does not occur in the Hebrew Bible, which uses the term Sheol to designate a bleak subterranean region where the dead, good and bad alike, subsist only as impotent shadows. When Hellenistic Jewish scribes rendered the Bible into Greek, they used the word Hades to translate Sheol, bringing a whole new mythological association to the idea of posthumous existence. In ancient Greek myth, Hades, named after the gloomy deity who ruled over it, was originally similar to the Hebrew Sheol, a dark underground realm in which all the dead, regardless of individual merit, were indiscriminately housed.
There was no punishment. There was only reward to those who are deemed 'righteous'. And that will only happen on the second coming (and not immediately after dying). The rest will remain dead forever. This is, and still is, how the Jews view afterlife.
And again I wonder why I know this, and you don't. Jesus, I'm actually trying to argue with your own weapons, and I know it still won't convince you to open the book yourself and actually READ IT. Please, if you want to believe in a god, at least know your own religion.
Anyway, that's enough fun for the night. If nothing else, you'll just quote this last sentence and mumble something or the other and this walloftext™ would be for nothing. Because it's all for nothing actually. And I wonder why I never seem to realize that! Go have fun imagining us all writhing in hell. Heck, while you're at it, start planning on the postcards that you'll send us of heaven when you get there.
track_boi saidkind of having a hard time wording this question...
Just throwing it out there, but how many atheists are confident enough to say that they would not inherit the kingdom of god or accept if they were wrong.
I for one can gladly tell god to go fuck himself.
I am confident enough to say that heaven, god and any other fairy tale are ridiculous ideas created by humans.
back to the question to atheists,
are you confident enough to deny entrance into eternal happiness or i guess this is kind of unpalatable for gay people but can you say no to 72 virgins?
With confidence, I'm ripping up my ticket to heaven that was force-fed down my throat.
So basically, you hate God because you've managed to let people convince you that He hated you first?
Seems like you let someone else make the choice for you.
LOL. And you sound so sure of it too, have you been there? nope I've never been - have no desire to be- from what i hear it ain't a picnic in da park.
Yes I understand completely. And no the threat of judgment doesn't exactly make me more likely to convert. If anything else, it makes me wary of your religion. acutally i have a belief in God and the saving power thru Jesus Christ. I don't really follow any organized religion. As a matter of fact the church I attend is non-denominational
Spare me the hell and brimstone stuff. Have you even asked how his own creation would even think of overthrowing him? He was supposed to be all powerful. Did he give free will to his angels? Why did the angels even have to go to war? So many questions, so little a book, and so silent a deity. I'm not the one to spare you- Only you can spare yourself. As to the rest already answered but since you seem to have missed it, once again: pride, arrogance and free will
And forchrissakes, Christianity is supposed to be a monotheism. It sounds suspiciously like you do have at least two gods after all. And more besides. pray tell- where have I espoused such a view?
God condemns no one... hm... really? I wonder how many savages died before Christianity even got off the Middle East. So many souls lost. They certainly weren't given a choice now, did they? Read the bible - you would see that no soul has ever been lost without being given a choice
And come on! God would let me make the wrong choice so that I end up burning in eternity and he wouldn't even lift a finger? How nice of him. Especially since it was he who concocted the idea of eternal torment in the first place... or so YOU say.
Of course God would allow you to make the wrong choice from His perspective. We do it everyday! What sort of God would He be to give us free will and take it away from us, when it comes to the tough choices. Nope, sounds to me like you are being quite childish. You want to have your cake and eat it too. You know, you guys are really unbelievable. God gives us a FREE GIFT - belive in Jesus Christ. He asks nothing more of us. He doesn't ask us to climb a mountain, run a marathon, flog ourselves silly. Just believe in Jesus Christ for taking care of your sins. You throw His gift back into His face - and expect Him to then do what? Surely you can see that your reaction is not logical
It's kinda like being born gay now wouldn't it? I'm gay. I was born gay. I can't change the fact that I'm gay. But I'm supposed to be stoned to death for it as well as burn in hell for it. And of course, all I have to do to avoid that is to stop being gay and live a miserable life without even the certainty of knowing that there really was a heaven or that I was going to it. Easy huh? Each person has to work out his or her own salvation with God. That's why it's called a personal relationship. I advise and encourage you to do the same
I'd rather just live this life. Try being happy, try not to harm other people, try to make other people happy, be as good a person as I can be without relying on threats to make me good. Is that not good enough? Does your god demand me to throw all this life away so that I may prepare for a 'maybe' afterlife? Why do you see it as throwing this life away? You only find true fulfillment in this life in Christ! And you also find true fulfillment in the next in him as well. Either way it's a win-win proposition And seeing that at most we only live 80 years here. If using this to prepare for the infinite time in the after life - well let's just say ... I'm into planning for the long term...
As for hell not being fun... have you REALLY read your bible? Or do you just listen to a priest spewing spittle over it?
Which bible do you read? here is what my bible says about hell: Matt 13:50 - A fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Revelations 20-10: Lake of fire Matt:25:41- Eternal fire that was prepared for Satan and his followers. Mark 9:48 - a place where the fire is never quenched And so on and so on. A picnic???? - In your dreams perhaps...
The original version of hell in the old testament was actually NOT the fiery pits of eternal torment you so cherish in your mind. It was simply Sheol. The original Jewish hell. Simply limbo, much like the Greek Hades, and very much like the Catholic idea of the Purgatory. A place of conditional death. Where dead people go and well... stay dead. Unless they were the faithful and the righteous and then they will be resurrected. The concept of eternal punishment was a Christian invention. It started when christians, muslims, and some jews began to borrow the mythology of greece and neighboring tribes that it began to take on the appearance of a fiery place of torment. And then they began calling it by borrowed names and metaphorical names of real places - in this case Gehenna for both muslims and christians (after the garbage dumping site in Jerusalem - The Valley of Hinnom), and Tartaros and Hades which are both GREEK borrowed versions.
Sheol - a Hebrew term simply describes “the grave” or “death” – It does not refer to “hell” specifically.
Hades - From the Greek does usually refer to hell – a place of torment. Read Luke 10:15; 16:23 - A place of torment and punishment
Gehenna - Another Greek term meaning burning dump – a place of torment Matthew 5:30; 23:33
Once again Hell ain't gonna be no picnic
There is only ONE book in the Bible that calls Gehenna a lake of fire. All the other usages of Gehenna were metaphorical. Only in the Book of Revelations. A NEW TESTAMENT book. Written by men who have been influenced by the Greek ideas of hell.
This is not true- as I've just indicated above
How could the bible view of hell be ascribed to Dante when Dante only arrived on the scene during the middle ages?Come on, surely you can do better than this
The fact remains - we have the free will to choose hell. If we do so we get what we choose. Seems pretty just and correct to me
Sedative saidLOL indeed. If I died and found out that there really was a God, and that he was exactly like the God in the Bible, even if I somehow find entrance to heaven I'd rebel and move to hell.
you wouldn't have to rebel- you would have done all the rebelling you could have ever done before you get to stand infront of Him. at that stage your fate is sealed.
Ummm...right... This is just your opinion, and no proof. Just so much fantasy talk.
Ah but there is proof- we will all die one day. Each of us will then discover the reality for ourselves. Can't ask for better proof than that!
This may sound contradictory, but I hope though that atheists and other non-believers in God are right
Proof happens in the here and now, not at some point beyond death. There will be no 'reality' because you will be non-existent.
Sedative saidLOL indeed. If I died and found out that there really was a God, and that he was exactly like the God in the Bible, even if I somehow find entrance to heaven I'd rebel and move to hell.
you wouldn't have to rebel- you would have done all the rebelling you could have ever done before you get to stand infront of Him. at that stage your fate is sealed.
Ummm...right... This is just your opinion, and no proof. Just so much fantasy talk.
Yes it is my opinion based upon the bible. But you don't have to take my word for it.
As I said, we all will discover the truth for ourselves one day
track_boi saidkind of having a hard time wording this question...
Just throwing it out there, but how many atheists are confident enough to say that they would not inherit the kingdom of god or accept if they were wrong.
I for one can gladly tell god to go fuck himself.
I am confident enough to say that heaven, god and any other fairy tale are ridiculous ideas created by humans.
back to the question to atheists,
are you confident enough to deny entrance into eternal happiness or i guess this is kind of unpalatable for gay people but can you say no to 72 virgins?
With confidence, I'm ripping up my ticket to heaven that was force-fed down my throat.
You actually wont have to turn it down. According to the bible, blaspheming God (telling him to f@ck off) is the one thing that is unforgivable so if there is a Heaven and Hell you just f@cked yourself.
Having read this thread, the posts that I found most interesting are between Blackguy4you and Sedative - on the discussion about Hell, Gehenna, Sheol, Hades and from where these terms originated. Sedative is right on the origins of these words, especially that of Gehenna, from the valley of Hinnom, an ancient dumping ground just south of Jerusalem. The valley is there, I have walked though it myself, although of course it is no longer a dumping ground. From the Greek concept of Hades, the Roman Catholic Church formed this concept of Hell as a literal lake of burning brimestone, or if you like, a volcanic lava lake with immortal worms swimming in the incandescent liquid. Personally, I believe this is a metaphor rather than an actual place. In the New Testament, Luke relates a teaching delivered by Jesus Christ himself (chapter 16). There he compares two men with different lifestyles who both die at the same time. One was Lazarus, a begger placed at the gates of a rich man who was meant to take care of him. The beggar dies, and his soul was carried by the angels to "Abraham's Bosom" a subterranian paradise where all the righteous souls went before the Resurrection of Christ. After the resurrection, these righteous souls were released from this paradise and went to Heaven where God's throne is. The rich man also died, and he went to "torments" a place for the wicked dead, and he is still there now. The text tells of this man pleading with Abraham to send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and with it, to cool his tongue. Not very significant if his whole being was immersed in fire! But why the tongue? Two reasons. First it is the organ of taste. This man, being rich, must have enjoyed the most sumptious delicacies without offering any to the beggar outside, let alone feeding him. Secondly, the tongue is the organ of speech. This guy must have said some cruel things to the hungry beggar. Hell is eternal separation from God. The fire is the mental and emotional torment experienced along with unsatisfied desires, and the crushing want for love, affection and recognition. All this is made worse with the thought that it will never end. It is worse than physical pain.
Nobody can claim to know the mind of God. Not even the pastor who claims God hates people who are same sex attracted nor the people who have it in their heads that God hates them for something they cannot change.
Divisive arguments about that which we cannot hope to ever fully understand is futile.
I for one can gladly tell god to go fuck himself. I am confident enough to say that heaven, god and any other fairy tale are ridiculous ideas created by humans.
I'm ripping up my ticket to heaven that was force-fed down my throat.
OH NO......talk about having to eat your words IF you are wrong. Balls? Foolishness?
You sound angry not happy. If you don't believe in God, at least be happy with your decision, no? Let others that believe be happy with their decision! Peace people, peace!
As far as the original post goes, there seems to be some (well) placed anger at a Christian God...not sure it was phrased well, but I got it. That being said, you have to understand that the issue of mortality or rather, death, is one of the big issues/problems of any human life and one that people have been grappling with for thousands of years. Understand then that for many people, it is easier to believe God gives them and their lives a meaning and reconciles them (though I have my doubts about how deep the reconciliation goes) to death rather than believe that this is it. It takes a strong person to believe that this is it or that you simply will never have certainty one way or the other...many aren't up to it, simply. I myself don't believe in a God but neither do I so aggressively dismiss others who do...perhaps it's the aging process.
IMHO, atheists and agnostics are much more tolerant than so-called believers.
Jackal69 saidAs far as the original post goes, there seems to be some (well) placed anger at a Christian God...not sure it was phrased well, but I got it. That being said, you have to understand that the issue of mortality or rather, death, is one of the big issues/problems of any human life and one that people have been grappling with for thousands of years. Understand then that for many people, it is easier to believe God gives them and their lives a meaning and reconciles them (though I have my doubts about how deep the reconciliation goes) to death rather than believe that this is it. It takes a strong person to believe that this is it or that you simply will never have certainty one way or the other...many aren't up to it, simply. I myself don't believe in a God but neither do I so aggressively dismiss others who do...perhaps it's the aging process.
IMHO, atheists and agnostics are much more tolerant than so-called believers.
On what do you base your opinion that A&A are more tolerant than believers?
The fact remains - we have the free will to choose hell. If we do so we get what we choose. Seems pretty just and correct to me
You do understand the difference between fact and conjecture don't you?
no not really is it something like
fact : God is real and it is His way or no way
Conjecture: Swimbikerun believes he can wish away God.
Is that it? Am I close?
Actually no, you are not close. There is no fact that god exists. Can you provide any meaningful evidence of the existence of your invisible friend?
I do not believe I can 'wish' away something that doesn't exist.
If you pray, and you believe your prayers are answered, then you are the one living in a 'wish'-based reality, not I.
"If wishes were horses, beggars would ride."
I don't see the difference between beggars and fervent true believers who pray.
Oh that's an easy one:
The fact that the Universe exists The fact that you exist
How does this 'prove' the existence of god? Mere existence does not require a creator of supernatural powers.
And my creation was due to the fertilization of a sperm and egg not a supernatural creature.
Of course it does - the universe exists and since it couldn't create itself an external agent had to have created it. I call that external agent -God.
Random chance could not have created something like you - ergo God did
What more proof do you need?
No one I know of claims 'random' chance.
EDIT: No one claims evolution to be random chance.
It is a series of progressive steps from less complicated forms to more complicated ones.
How do you know the universe couldn't create itself? One theory is that our universe was created by a disturbance between two parallel universes which came into contact with each other. Certainly this is more logical and palatable than an old man living in the sky throwing a lightning bolt?
You simply feel the emotional need for a conscious being to be invoked where the existence of such an activator need not be required to explain the existence of the known universe. So why invoke it? Just admit that you only do so because it makes you feel better and we'll have nothing more to discuss.
reedw saidActually no, you are not close. There is no fact that god exists. Can you provide any meaningful evidence of the existence of your invisible friend?
To us believers there is much proof that God exists. To nonbelievers there is virtually no proof at all. This is a ridiculous argument.
Why is it so ridiculous? Believers require it to be printed on our money, that churches get tax breaks, that all candidates for President profess the belief in invisible sky gods, on and on and on....
Why should it be ridiculous to ask: "Are you guys just putting us all on with this stuff? Where's your invisible friend you are always talking to? Hey, it's my fucking tax dollars!" lol
I am required to support all your belief systems, and you get upset when I ask why I should be doing so?
You realize we are living in the 21st Century right?
reedw saidActually no, you are not close. There is no fact that god exists. Can you provide any meaningful evidence of the existence of your invisible friend?
To us believers there is much proof that God exists. To nonbelievers there is virtually no proof at all. This is a ridiculous argument.
Why is it so ridiculous? Believers require it to be printed on our money, that churches get tax breaks, that all candidates for President profess the belief in invisible sky gods, on and on and on....
Why should it be ridiculous to ask: "Are you guys just putting us all on with this stuff? Where's your invisible friend you are always talking to? Hey, it's my fucking tax dollars!" lol
I just told you why it was ridiculous. Atheists will find any possible way to explain the unexplainable through science. Believers will find any possible way to explain the unexplainable through God or religion. Both sides can argue all day if they want, but it's no better than arguing with a brick wall.
reedw saidActually no, you are not close. There is no fact that god exists. Can you provide any meaningful evidence of the existence of your invisible friend?
To us believers there is much proof that God exists. To nonbelievers there is virtually no proof at all. This is a ridiculous argument.
Why is it so ridiculous? Believers require it to be printed on our money, that churches get tax breaks, that all candidates for President profess the belief in invisible sky gods, on and on and on....
Why should it be ridiculous to ask: "Are you guys just putting us all on with this stuff? Where's your invisible friend you are always talking to? Hey, it's my fucking tax dollars!" lol
I just told you why it was ridiculous. Atheists will find any possible way to explain the unexplainable through science. Believers will find any possible way to explain the unexplainable through God or religion. Both sides can argue all day if they want, but it's no better than arguing with a brick wall.
Oh, I beg to differ. I see no harm in discussing things (that's why this board is here). Once upon a time, religion had a hold on most of humanity. Believers attributed everything to god and to question it was to mean the death sentence. Then the Renaissance happened, modern science was born and mankind realized that we were literally not the center of the universe. Some people still don't agree with that view to this day. Personally, I blame evolution!
reedw saidActually no, you are not close. There is no fact that god exists. Can you provide any meaningful evidence of the existence of your invisible friend?
To us believers there is much proof that God exists. To nonbelievers there is virtually no proof at all. This is a ridiculous argument.
Why is it so ridiculous? Believers require it to be printed on our money, that churches get tax breaks, that all candidates for President profess the belief in invisible sky gods, on and on and on....
Why should it be ridiculous to ask: "Are you guys just putting us all on with this stuff? Where's your invisible friend you are always talking to? Hey, it's my fucking tax dollars!" lol
I just told you why it was ridiculous. Atheists will find any possible way to explain the unexplainable through science. Believers will find any possible way to explain the unexplainable through God or religion. Both sides can argue all day if they want, but it's no better than arguing with a brick wall.
Oh, I beg to differ. I see no harm in discussing things (that's why this board is here). Once upon a time, religion had a hold on most of humanity. Believers attributed everything to god and to question it was to mean the death sentence. Then the Renaissance happened, modern science was born and mankind realized that we were literally not the center of the universe. Some people still don't agree with that view to this day. Personally, I blame evolution!
If God is anything like the "God" described in the Bible -- that is, a complete psycho -- then no, I'll take a pass on spending eternity with him.
Particularly when he insists on sending tens of billions of innocent people to hell (many of them children) just because they had never heard of him, and hence, never worshipped him.
reedw saidActually no, you are not close. There is no fact that god exists. Can you provide any meaningful evidence of the existence of your invisible friend?
To us believers there is much proof that God exists. To nonbelievers there is virtually no proof at all. This is a ridiculous argument.
Why is it so ridiculous? Believers require it to be printed on our money, that churches get tax breaks, that all candidates for President profess the belief in invisible sky gods, on and on and on....
Why should it be ridiculous to ask: "Are you guys just putting us all on with this stuff? Where's your invisible friend you are always talking to? Hey, it's my fucking tax dollars!" lol
I just told you why it was ridiculous. Atheists will find any possible way to explain the unexplainable through science. Believers will find any possible way to explain the unexplainable through God or religion. Both sides can argue all day if they want, but it's no better than arguing with a brick wall.
Oh, I beg to differ. I see no harm in discussing things (that's why this board is here). Once upon a time, religion had a hold on most of humanity. Believers attributed everything to god and to question it was to mean the death sentence. Then the Renaissance happened, modern science was born and mankind realized that we were literally not the center of the universe. Some people still don't agree with that view to this day. Personally, I blame evolution!
Cool story bro. Your point?
My point is that you have said 'this is a ridiculous argument'. I believe I have demonstrated that I do not hold irrational belief systems to the same level as rational ones thus my argument is not ridiculous and is, in fact, well-reasoned and sound.
track_boi saidkind of having a hard time wording this question...
Just throwing it out there, but how many atheists are confident enough to say that they would not inherit the kingdom of god or accept if they were wrong.
I for one can gladly tell god to go fuck himself.
I am confident enough to say that heaven, god and any other fairy tale are ridiculous ideas created by humans.
back to the question to atheists,
are you confident enough to deny entrance into eternal happiness or i guess this is kind of unpalatable for gay people but can you say no to 72 virgins?
With confidence, I'm ripping up my ticket to heaven that was force-fed down my throat.
So basically, you hate God because you've managed to let people convince you that He hated you first?
Seems like you let someone else make the choice for you.
i dont hate god, because god doesnt exist,
dont get me wrong, i sure as hell dont like the idea of god but if i did believe in god i would say that he hates me just as much as he hates everybody that works on sundays...
Jackal69 said IMHO, atheists and agnostics are much more tolerant than so-called believers.
I know it's your opinion, but judging by some of the posts in this thread and the other related ones, I don't share that sentiment. I'd like to, but I think since people are people, the percentage of levels of tolerance and intolerance is about the same.
wow, popular thread and im way late to the game, but nonetheless, ive told god to strike me dead a number of times... so he either A) is a pussy or B) doesn't exist. either way, i think i should be alright
Jackal69 said IMHO, atheists and agnostics are much more tolerant than so-called believers.
I know it's your opinion, but judging by some of the posts in this thread and the other related ones, I don't share that sentiment. I'd like to, but I think since people are people, the percentage of levels of tolerance and intolerance is about the same.
Really? Let's take a look at India and Pakistan. Or perhaps Northern Ireland. Or let's go back to the Crusades. All believers killing one another. Now that's intolerance!
I'm talking about percentages, so the numbers are relative to the size of the population. But I should recant my statement about the levels of tolerance/intolerance because obviously the severity of violence based on religion is exponentially greater.
However, after reading some of the posts in the religious threads, I do see words like "stupid" thrown at those of us who are religious. There are a lot of negative sweeping generalizations about monotheists. Nothing much said about those who believe in multiple deities.
I'm glad people have their beliefs, whatever they may be. And you certainly have the right to criticize. Criticism should be encouraged. There needs to be a dialogue, but when you start mocking... particularly singling out specific religions constantly, I can't respect you anymore than those gay bashers who will use every opportunity to vilify gays.
creature saidI'm talking about percentages, so the numbers are relative to the size of the population. But I should recant my statement about the levels of tolerance/intolerance because obviously the severity of violence based on religion is exponentially greater.
I agree with your former statement .. I used to make a point in these threads saying that atheists and religious people are the same. Not two different species. Violence and anger is a trait shared by all humans. Some atheist seem to pose the notion that getting rid of religion will get rid of most of these problems.
In reality, in my research, societies that frowned on religion there is an enormous death toll and human rights abuse: Chinese and Russian Communist revolutions, Cambodia. Of course countries where religion and state are joined can also show proclivities for violence. ANY ideology religious or not can become a recipe for violence. Both can be steeped in untruthful rhetoric and ignorance that creates fertile ground for intolerance and violence.
So if you really embrace science and rationality, you will see the the common root is not religion but simple human biology and psychology. There is no superiority because we are all human animals.
The fact remains - we have the free will to choose hell. If we do so we get what we choose. Seems pretty just and correct to me
You do understand the difference between fact and conjecture don't you?
no not really is it something like
fact : God is real and it is His way or no way
Conjecture: Swimbikerun believes he can wish away God.
Is that it? Am I close?
Actually no, you are not close. There is no fact that god exists. Can you provide any meaningful evidence of the existence of your invisible friend?
I do not believe I can 'wish' away something that doesn't exist.
If you pray, and you believe your prayers are answered, then you are the one living in a 'wish'-based reality, not I.
"If wishes were horses, beggars would ride."
I don't see the difference between beggars and fervent true believers who pray.
Oh that's an easy one:
The fact that the Universe exists The fact that you exist
How does this 'prove' the existence of god? Mere existence does not require a creator of supernatural powers.
And my creation was due to the fertilization of a sperm and egg not a supernatural creature.
Of course it does - the universe exists and since it couldn't create itself an external agent had to have created it. I call that external agent -God.
Random chance could not have created something like you - ergo God did
What more proof do you need?
No one I know of claims 'random' chance.
EDIT: No one claims evolution to be random chance.
It is a series of progressive steps from less complicated forms to more complicated ones.
How do you know the universe couldn't create itself? One theory is that our universe was created by a disturbance between two parallel universes which came into contact with each other. Certainly this is more logical and palatable than an old man living in the sky throwing a lightning bolt?
You simply feel the emotional need for a conscious being to be invoked where the existence of such an activator need not be required to explain the existence of the known universe. So why invoke it? Just admit that you only do so because it makes you feel better and we'll have nothing more to discuss.
parallel universe theory ?????- Aw come on- stop that . next you are going to tell me that people still believe the world is flat.
are you really going to argue that the universe created itself well now i see why you raise the belief in the possibility of fairies, little green men and horses that can fly? I prefer pigs that can fly though coz I love my pork.
old man living in the sky? eh who would would that be? are you talking about the man in the moon?
i don't feel the emotional need except perhaps to have someone to cuddle with.
I however look at the beauty and the efficacy of the perfectly fine tuned systems on earth and the universe, and like 2+2 =4: logic indicates that only intelligence could have created them. you may call this intelligence whatever you like. I call it God.
Conjecture: Swimbikerun believes he can wish away God.
Is that it? Am I close?
Random chance could not have created something like you - ergo God did
What more proof do you need?No one I know of claims 'random' chance.
EDIT: No one claims evolution to be random chance.
It is a series of progressive steps from less complicated forms to more complicated ones.
LOL- "progressive steps from less complicated forms to more complicated ones.", indeed ... You really have to stop making these sort of staments if you intend to have even a semi-serious discussion. But you were not being serious, coz I would hope noone still argues this... Ah in that case I get it now You are funny. For a moment I thought you were being serious
Jackal69 said IMHO, atheists and agnostics are much more tolerant than so-called believers.
I know it's your opinion, but judging by some of the posts in this thread and the other related ones, I don't share that sentiment. I'd like to, but I think since people are people, the percentage of levels of tolerance and intolerance is about the same.
Really? Let's take a look at India and Pakistan. Or perhaps Northern Ireland. Or let's go back to the Crusades. All believers killing one another. Now that's intolerance!
How about stalin and Lenin and Pholpot and China and ghengis khan?
reedw saidActually no, you are not close. There is no fact that god exists. Can you provide any meaningful evidence of the existence of your invisible friend?
To us believers there is much proof that God exists. To nonbelievers there is virtually no proof at all. This is a ridiculous argument.
Why is it so ridiculous? Believers require it to be printed on our money, that churches get tax breaks, that all candidates for President profess the belief in invisible sky gods, on and on and on....
Why should it be ridiculous to ask: "Are you guys just putting us all on with this stuff? Where's your invisible friend you are always talking to? Hey, it's my fucking tax dollars!" lol
I am required to support all your belief systems, and you get upset when I ask why I should be doing so?
You realize we are living in the 21st Century right?
well here is why it's ridiculous for me:
you want me to belive that 13 billion years+ 1 second ago nothing decided to tell itself that it's going to come into existence and voila in a massive explosion we had the big bang and from nothing the universe came into being all by itself.
nah, sorry no can do - that goes beyond the point of being ridculous. Untill you can prove that out of nothing comes something my imagination doesn't stretch that far.
We had the big bang indeed - but it was created by intelligence. this fact alone should tell you that a supreme being exists. if it doesn't well I guess you'll just have to wait until you meet Him
dglater saidi hate the fact that in modern day USA it seems like there is this war/conflict
Atheist Vs Christians and its mostly the christian right fault for being they way they are, closed minded to anything against their beliefs.
i am agnostic, Judaism is my culture now, however i could never deny god lol no balls.
ok - I really shouldn't.... but I have to ask this before I go to bed. Is a Christian to entertain the thought the God doesn't exist or that he doesn't know if God exists?
Eh, wouldn't that mean that the person is no longer a Christian? And around and around it would go....
Frankly, I don't understand how you could be an agnostic and yet have Judaism as a culture. But hey anything is possible. My grand-mother would spank you though for saying that if she were to get her hands on you.
Hunter9 saidwow, popular thread and im way late to the game, but nonetheless, ive told god to strike me dead a number of times... so he either A) is a pussy or B) doesn't exist. either way, i think i should be alright
He has a sense of humour - He will strike when you least expect it. Hope you are prepared for when He does
No hell, no Lucifer, no salvation, nothing to be saved from, no cosmic moral dichotomy.
I do not know what exactly happens after "death", but I'm pretty sure consciousness continues mightily fine after it.
I'm not an atheist, thought some philosophical purist might tell I'm also not a theist. I believe God exists and He inspired certain parts of the Christian/Jewish Bible, but I have no problem calling some other parts to be flat out wrong, misleading or misinterpreted.
For the sake of the thought experiment: what if I am wrong? Then I guess a just God would take into account I did as best as I could to follow my moral conscience into not worshiping what I thought to be an idol, a human invention. If not... I'm fine with joining all others here who have already said will be forming the resistance.
On the other hand, PERSONALLY I can hardly consider seriously the possibility, but to each his own.
I fully contend that the notion of the Judeo-Christian god is purely absurd. This god is neither rational, nor kind, nor consistent in his rules, nor is he all-knowing -- the bible is full of inaccurate claims about the shape of Earth, solar system, the age of the Earth, and geographical errors.
I love when believers try to twist this information and claim that perhaps god's "years" are measured differently, so perhaps the 6,000 year-old Earth hypothesis is actually god's way of calculating 4.5 billion years.
Anyway, it just shows that most people have a very strong need to believe in something bigger than themselves. They will continue to believe, even after the most damaging of evidence severely damages the basis of their views. I've never understood it.
reedw saidActually no, you are not close. There is no fact that god exists. Can you provide any meaningful evidence of the existence of your invisible friend?
To us believers there is much proof that God exists. To nonbelievers there is virtually no proof at all. This is a ridiculous argument.
Why is it so ridiculous? Believers require it to be printed on our money, that churches get tax breaks, that all candidates for President profess the belief in invisible sky gods, on and on and on....
Why should it be ridiculous to ask: "Are you guys just putting us all on with this stuff? Where's your invisible friend you are always talking to? Hey, it's my fucking tax dollars!" lol
I am required to support all your belief systems, and you get upset when I ask why I should be doing so?
You realize we are living in the 21st Century right?
well here is why it's ridiculous for me:
you want me to belive that 13 billion years+ 1 second ago nothing decided to tell itself that it's going to come into existence and voila in a massive explosion we had the big bang and from nothing the universe came into being all by itself.
nah, sorry no can do - that goes beyond the point of being ridculous. Untill you can prove that out of nothing comes something my imagination doesn't stretch that far.
We had the big bang indeed - but it was created by intelligence. this fact alone should tell you that a supreme being exists. if it doesn't well I guess you'll just have to wait until you meet Him
The only point you seem never being tired of making is conjecturing about meeting some mystical creature when you are dead. You offer no proof, just conjecture.
You 2+2=4 and that only intelligence created it. Yes, it is called a human being.
if you are even thinking that there is this so-called "kingdom of god", are you really a true atheist? I for one, have never thought that there would be some judgement day because I truely believe there is no heaven, there is no hell, and there is no god. What's wrong with dying and going into nothingness? I enjoy my life on Earth as it is, and i don't need this fantasy of going somewhere after I die where everything is wonderful; you die, you die. Big f'ing deal.
This thread is interesting to read. It proves just how the great teachings of Jesus got so incredibly distorted over the last 2,000 years. Here are some observations from a Southern Baptist minister's son, graduate of a Southern Baptist univeristy, and having spent 3 years in a Southern Baptist seminary before dropping out. I've been a Roman Catholic for 15 years and now in the United Church of Christ (liberal Protestant). And all throughout, I have been a doubter and questioner (thank God!)
1. Being "Christian" and being "Christ-like" are absolutely two different concepts in the US. I don't call myself a Christian anymore because of the horrible definition applied to that label. I prefer "Christ-like" because Jesus didn't care about what a person believed. He only cared about how people treated each other and what kindness/compassion/love/justice was in their hearts.
2. Heaven is a fixation of the religious conservatives because they believe that the purpose of being Christian is to not go to Hell when they die. This is why they miss the point in #1 above. Jesus actually said that he came to give people life more abundantly (present tense). The life eternal comments were meant to be a reward for living in the present.
3. The Bible is humanity's attempt in understanding God from their own place in time. It is not God's dictated document to humanity. Once can see a change in God from Genesis to Revelation. Does God change? No. People's understanding of God changes. Case in point: Many churches today are now accepting of GLBT people in them. They wouldn't have been 50 years ago. Mine, for example, has many GLBT people in leadership and, no, we are not told we are screwed up and going to hell.
So much of American Christianity is a distorion of the Bible. I enjoy reading just what Jesus said, taught, and did. I find that refreshing and amazingly similiar to other great teachers of old. (Now that's a topic for another long thread!)
Tronik saidI fully contend that the notion of the Judeo-Christian god is purely absurd. This god is neither rational, nor kind, nor consistent in his rules, nor is he all-knowing -- the bible is full of inaccurate claims about the shape of Earth, solar system, the age of the Earth, and geographical errors.
I love when believers try to twist this information and claim that perhaps god's "years" are measured differently, so perhaps the 6,000 year-old Earth hypothesis is actually god's way of calculating 4.5 billion years.
Anyway, it just shows that most people have a very strong need to believe in something bigger than themselves. They will continue to believe, even after the most damaging of evidence severely damages the basis of their views. I've never understood it.
Where does the bible say the earth is 6000 years old? I've read the bible for a couple of years now and have never seen this. In which translation is it found. I use the KJV and the NIV.
From whose perspective are you commenting on when you talk about God's character?
Tronik saidI fully contend that the notion of the Judeo-Christian god is purely absurd. This god is neither rational, nor kind, nor consistent in his rules, nor is he all-knowing -- the bible is full of inaccurate claims about the shape of Earth, solar system, the age of the Earth, and geographical errors.
I love when believers try to twist this information and claim that perhaps god's "years" are measured differently, so perhaps the 6,000 year-old Earth hypothesis is actually god's way of calculating 4.5 billion years.
Anyway, it just shows that most people have a very strong need to believe in something bigger than themselves. They will continue to believe, even after the most damaging of evidence severely damages the basis of their views. I've never understood it.
Where does the bible say the earth is 6000 years old? I've read the bible for a couple of years now and have never seen this. In which translation is it found. I use the KJV and the NIV.
From whose perspective are you commenting on when you talk about God's character?
You need to read up on the batshit craziness of your imaginary friends:
reedw saidActually no, you are not close. There is no fact that god exists. Can you provide any meaningful evidence of the existence of your invisible friend?
To us believers there is much proof that God exists. To nonbelievers there is virtually no proof at all. This is a ridiculous argument.
Why is it so ridiculous? Believers require it to be printed on our money, that churches get tax breaks, that all candidates for President profess the belief in invisible sky gods, on and on and on....
Why should it be ridiculous to ask: "Are you guys just putting us all on with this stuff? Where's your invisible friend you are always talking to? Hey, it's my fucking tax dollars!" lol
I am required to support all your belief systems, and you get upset when I ask why I should be doing so?
You realize we are living in the 21st Century right?
well here is why it's ridiculous for me:
you want me to belive that 13 billion years+ 1 second ago nothing decided to tell itself that it's going to come into existence and voila in a massive explosion we had the big bang and from nothing the universe came into being all by itself.
nah, sorry no can do - that goes beyond the point of being ridculous. Untill you can prove that out of nothing comes something my imagination doesn't stretch that far.
We had the big bang indeed - but it was created by intelligence. this fact alone should tell you that a supreme being exists. if it doesn't well I guess you'll just have to wait until you meet Him
The only point you seem never being tired of making is conjecturing about meeting some mystical creature when you are dead. You offer no proof, just conjecture.
You 2+2=4 and that only intelligence created it. Yes, it is called a human being.
i do have to keep making the point, yes, because you don't seem to understand the seriousness of it.
but once again i will hope (false hope that it may be) that you and all atheists are right. coz if you are wrong you are in major trouble from which there is no coming back.
see and there you have it once again. by your very words you confirm that a supreme being exists... let me quote for you, "You 2+2=4 and that only intelligence created it. Yes, it is called a human being. Human intelligence I agree with you came up with 2+2 =4. And yet you refuse to face the reality, the obvious undeniable fact, that the the universe- an infinitely more complex equation has to have been created by intelligence as well!! Come on man!!!!!!!!!! i know it's not popular in gay circles to admit, but it's ok you can. i admit it and look the sky hasn't fallen.
i understand that you may have issues with religious organizations - heck I'm sure we all do except for those running them.i sure do. but God doesn't have grandchildren- when you stand before him - it's about you and him, not you the church and him.
Tronik saidI fully contend that the notion of the Judeo-Christian god is purely absurd. This god is neither rational, nor kind, nor consistent in his rules, nor is he all-knowing -- the bible is full of inaccurate claims about the shape of Earth, solar system, the age of the Earth, and geographical errors.
I love when believers try to twist this information and claim that perhaps god's "years" are measured differently, so perhaps the 6,000 year-old Earth hypothesis is actually god's way of calculating 4.5 billion years.
Anyway, it just shows that most people have a very strong need to believe in something bigger than themselves. They will continue to believe, even after the most damaging of evidence severely damages the basis of their views. I've never understood it.
Where does the bible say the earth is 6000 years old? I've read the bible for a couple of years now and have never seen this. In which translation is it found. I use the KJV and the NIV.
From whose perspective are you commenting on when you talk about God's character?
You need to read up on the batshit craziness of your imaginary friends:
I thought true atheists do not believe in god or the devil?
I also thought atheists thought once you are dead that is it?
Is there a new class of atheists that will believe in the Devil and hell but not God and heaven?
Yes the bible might not be perfect in the current form. Only because man wrote it. Man thought it wise to leave so much out of the Bible. But that is where the Catholic Church comes in. They now believe in ET but can't see that maybe 2 men can truly love each other. It's all a matter of perspective. It's also a matter of where the money is coming from. In the bible it says that owning so many slaves is ok. Again it's all about who has the money. The money at the time wanted slave to be ok by God, so they added it. Today we know better, but no one dare up date the book, we just ignore that passage. Same with marriage and divorce. What is says would not fly now a days with divorce so popular. So the church ignores that section. Or says it has another meaning.
In my heart I believe that god does exist. That we mankind have taken his word and used it to start wars or to denounce that which we do not like.
My self I believe that Jesus will forgive me and allow me in. I thank god everyday that he is wise enough to know all men sin we are only human.
reedw saidActually no, you are not close. There is no fact that god exists. Can you provide any meaningful evidence of the existence of your invisible friend?
To us believers there is much proof that God exists. To nonbelievers there is virtually no proof at all. This is a ridiculous argument.
Why is it so ridiculous? Believers require it to be printed on our money, that churches get tax breaks, that all candidates for President profess the belief in invisible sky gods, on and on and on....
Why should it be ridiculous to ask: "Are you guys just putting us all on with this stuff? Where's your invisible friend you are always talking to? Hey, it's my fucking tax dollars!" lol
I am required to support all your belief systems, and you get upset when I ask why I should be doing so?
You realize we are living in the 21st Century right?
well here is why it's ridiculous for me:
you want me to belive that 13 billion years+ 1 second ago nothing decided to tell itself that it's going to come into existence and voila in a massive explosion we had the big bang and from nothing the universe came into being all by itself.
nah, sorry no can do - that goes beyond the point of being ridculous. Untill you can prove that out of nothing comes something my imagination doesn't stretch that far.
We had the big bang indeed - but it was created by intelligence. this fact alone should tell you that a supreme being exists. if it doesn't well I guess you'll just have to wait until you meet Him
The only point you seem never being tired of making is conjecturing about meeting some mystical creature when you are dead. You offer no proof, just conjecture.
You 2+2=4 and that only intelligence created it. Yes, it is called a human being.
i do have to keep making the point, yes, because you don't seem to understand the seriousness of it.
but once again i will hope (false hope that it may be) that you and all atheists are right. coz if you are wrong you are in major trouble from which there is no coming back.
see and there you have it once again. by your very words you confirm that a supreme being exists... let me quote for you, "You 2+2=4 and that only intelligence created it. Yes, it is called a human being. Human intelligence I agree with you came up with 2+2 =4. And yet you refuse to face the reality, the obvious undeniable fact, that the the universe- an infinitely more complex equation has to have been created by intelligence as well!! Come on man!!!!!!!!!! i know it's not popular in gay circles to admit, but it's ok you can. i admit it and look the sky hasn't fallen.
i understand that you may have issues with religious organizations - heck I'm sure we all do except for those running them.i sure do. but God doesn't have grandchildren- when you stand before him - it's about you and him, not you the church and him.
All you are doing is simply reiterating your original point that simply because something exists that you define as complex, it must therefore imply a maker. Not so. You've not demonstrated any proof whatsoever. A crystal of ice is complex, no human or magic creature made it. It simply forms in nature.
You keep using the word fact, yet you present no evidence or instance of objective reality as required by the definition of what a fact is:
Tronik saidI fully contend that the notion of the Judeo-Christian god is purely absurd. This god is neither rational, nor kind, nor consistent in his rules, nor is he all-knowing -- the bible is full of inaccurate claims about the shape of Earth, solar system, the age of the Earth, and geographical errors.
I love when believers try to twist this information and claim that perhaps god's "years" are measured differently, so perhaps the 6,000 year-old Earth hypothesis is actually god's way of calculating 4.5 billion years.
Anyway, it just shows that most people have a very strong need to believe in something bigger than themselves. They will continue to believe, even after the most damaging of evidence severely damages the basis of their views. I've never understood it.
Where does the bible say the earth is 6000 years old? I've read the bible for a couple of years now and have never seen this. In which translation is it found. I use the KJV and the NIV.
From whose perspective are you commenting on when you talk about God's character?
You need to read up on the batshit craziness of your imaginary friends:
no no no, not good enough. ok perhaps i was not clear enough and for this I apologize
give me chapter and verse where the bible says that the world was created 6000 years ago.
Don't give me what some guy says that it says. That's not good enough
How the fuck should I know? This is what your crazy true believers believe. I just gave you a link to someone who is a true believer (like you) and you shoot it down. Your argument is with him, not me. What this demonstrates simply, is that yes, some true believers believe the earth is only 6,000 years old.
dglater saidi hate the fact that in modern day USA it seems like there is this war/conflict
Atheist Vs Christians and its mostly the christian right fault for being they way they are, closed minded to anything against their beliefs.
i am agnostic, Judaism is my culture now, however i could never deny god lol no balls.
ok - I really shouldn't.... but I have to ask this before I go to bed. Is a Christian to entertain the thought the God doesn't exist or that he doesn't know if God exists?
Eh, wouldn't that mean that the person is no longer a Christian? And around and around it would go....
Frankly, I don't understand how you could be an agnostic and yet have Judaism as a culture. But hey anything is possible. My grand-mother would spank you though for saying that if she were to get her hands on you.
i like the spanking idea but not sure from a grand mother
well lets see, i eat pork, don't keep kosher, and dont go to synagogue regularly... yet i light a Menorah on Chanouka, eat Matzah on passover, and i fest and attend synagogue on you kippur, those are the things ive been doing since a child growing up, and its part of the culture i was raised in, and in all those examples there is something extremely meaningful for me aside from the religious/cultural aspect.
and aside from that i do put up a xmas tree and celebrate thanksgiving july4 and other stuff... as i am an American now as well
All you are doing is simply reiterating your original point that simply because something exists that you define as complex, it must therefore imply a maker. Not so. You've not demonstrated any proof whatsoever. A crystal of ice is complex, no human or magic creature made it. It simply forms in nature.created by laws laid down by the Creator but take a gander at the A priori principle from philosophy (christians didn't make that one up either, so don't blame us).
If I remember it correctly, it states everything that exists has a cause. So extrapolating from this... Since the universe exists it has to have had a cause Since it could not have come into existence all by its lonesome self, it must have been caused to come into existence An external agent outside of time and space had to have caused it
Voila - back to the Big G again
You keep using the word fact, yet you present no evidence or instance of objective reality as required by the definition of what a fact is:
No one created God. He didn't spring into existence - He is the only self existant being in the universe. He did cause the universe to spring into existence though. And what an incredible artist is He!!
mathematics teaches us that infinite regression leads to self contradictory answers. So it begins and ends with God. That's why He's also known as the Alpha and the Omega. The Great I AM!
I keep using the word fact- because there's no other word to use.
I don't see how else to take all of these marvelous laws and rules and perfectly fined tuned systems that we see in nature, in the cosmos and could think they were randomly generated. No can do! It has to be fact of the Creator creating. The fact is there has to be intelligence behind it
i disagree with the notion that god created everything, or perfect everything. far from it, i think your argument does conclude to "if you cant explain it YET, then its god"
All you are doing is simply reiterating your original point that simply because something exists that you define as complex, it must therefore imply a maker. Not so. You've not demonstrated any proof whatsoever. A crystal of ice is complex, no human or magic creature made it. It simply forms in nature.created by laws laid down by the Creator but take a gander at the A priori principle from philosophy (christians didn't make that one up either, so don't blame us).
If I remember it correctly, it states everything that exists has a cause. So extrapolating from this... Since the universe exists it has to have had a cause Since it could not have come into existence all by its lonesome self, it must have been caused to come into existence An external agent outside of time and space had to have caused it
Voila - back to the Big G again
You keep using the word fact, yet you present no evidence or instance of objective reality as required by the definition of what a fact is:
No one created God. He didn't spring into existence - He is the only self existant being in the universe. He did cause the universe to spring into existence though. And what an incredible artist is He!!
mathematics teaches us that infinite regression leads to self contradictory answers. So it begins and ends with God. That's why He's also known as the Alpha and the Omega. The Great I AM!
I keep using the word fact- because there's no other word to use.
I don't see how else to take all of these marvelous laws and rules and perfectly fined tuned systems that we see in nature, in the cosmos and could think they were randomly generated. No can do! It has to be fact of the Creator creating. The fact is there has to be intelligence behind it
It is clear we are simply two different kinds of people. I see things and ask: "Why?"
You see things, throw up your hands and say: "I don't know, must be magic!"
That is what I find frustrating about true believers. Nothing is questioned, nothing is discovered, nothing is explored. You are satisfied with the explanation of reality defined by ancient tales from a book written by ignorant people. I am not.
You reject the clearly more outrageous claims made by factions of your true believers tribe. You are ashamed of their claims, and clear active self-induced ignorance cannot be defended. Yet, you still are in the camp of the non-rational and your claims of the existence of an invisible sky god are just as outrageous.
So basically, you hate God because you've managed to let people convince you that He hated you first?
Seems like you let someone else make the choice for you.
i dont hate god, because god doesnt exist,
dont get me wrong, i sure as hell dont like the idea of god but if i did believe in god i would say that he hates me just as much as he hates everybody that works on sundays...
Why Should He hate you and why should He hate people who work on Sundays?
Yeah, I'm perfectly aware of the fact that the Bible is chock full of stuff. A lot of which is hard to understand the importance/relevance of. But of all the guidelines and laws in the Bible, there are really only two commandments that God requires of us.
The primary, broad sweeping theme of New Testament Christianity is a command to:
1) Love God 2) Love People
See, an attitude of LOVE automatically self-governs the individual because you can't be acting in a spirit of love while you're stealing from somebody. You can't be acting in an attitude of love while you're encouraging the breaking of contracts or personal vows. You're not acting in an attitude of love while driving drunk. You're not acting in love if you're spreading disease. And you're not acting in an attitude of love when you despise the highest authority because you somehow think God is "unjust" or 'imaginary'.
Consider, if there is 'no God', then laws are meaningless as there is no ultimate source of accountability.The belief that there is no God is to admit that evil people who lived in luxury and slipped peacefully off into 'death' while asleep 'got away with it'! This may be too metaphysical for some to grasp, but extend your mind to the following notion: If LAW exists apart of the individual, then it's counterpart, JUSTICE must also exist apart of the individual. Therefore, if LAW and JUSTICE exist independently of man, then man will ultimately be subject to them, if indeed Law and Justice are what the models hold as truth. Therefore, if the present world seems to be somewhat devoid of "justice", but we know that it exists in perfection somewhere; Then it must be administered someplace beyond our perceptual acuity. Evil men get away with nothing. But, neither will you.
You said "God hates you". I'm assuming because you, like every guy here, is probably attracted to other guys. But I'd like you to consider this:
If God has said: Mala-Prohibita "Man and man"-"woman and woman" at what point does the act produce results that cause harm? At what point does the proverbial 'drunk' 'run over the child'? At what point does the innocent's blood get shed? Obviously, no double standards are allowed when answering this. One cannot reason: "They might spread disease!", IF it is also true that a "MAN and WOMAN" might spread disease. Some might argue "They can't reproduce!" Well then, perhaps all mixed-gender couples beyond childbearing years, or those who cannot bear children in their prime should be separated! Since when is fertility a prerequisite for pair-bonding? And so it will go: from premise, to a test with a mixed couple; -- and then tell us please: Where is the crime committed that is worthy of death as fundamentalists assert God has said?
The answer, there is no such crime. The only people guilty of the crime carried out here is the aforementioned fundamentalists who worship an idol they believe sees same sex attractions as worthy of death and refuse to follow the two commandments listed above.
Not you for being same sex attracted and certainly not people who work on Sundays.
All you are doing is simply reiterating your original point that simply because something exists that you define as complex, it must therefore imply a maker. Not so. You've not demonstrated any proof whatsoever. A crystal of ice is complex, no human or magic creature made it. It simply forms in nature.created by laws laid down by the Creator but take a gander at the A priori principle from philosophy (christians didn't make that one up either, so don't blame us).
If I remember it correctly, it states everything that exists has a cause. So extrapolating from this... Since the universe exists it has to have had a cause Since it could not have come into existence all by its lonesome self, it must have been caused to come into existence An external agent outside of time and space had to have caused it
Voila - back to the Big G again
You keep using the word fact, yet you present no evidence or instance of objective reality as required by the definition of what a fact is:
No one created God. He didn't spring into existence - He is the only self existant being in the universe. He did cause the universe to spring into existence though. And what an incredible artist is He!!
mathematics teaches us that infinite regression leads to self contradictory answers. So it begins and ends with God. That's why He's also known as the Alpha and the Omega. The Great I AM!
I keep using the word fact- because there's no other word to use.
I don't see how else to take all of these marvelous laws and rules and perfectly fined tuned systems that we see in nature, in the cosmos and could think they were randomly generated. No can do! It has to be fact of the Creator creating. The fact is there has to be intelligence behind it
It is clear we are simply two different kinds of people. I see things and ask: "Why?"
You see things, throw up your hands and say: "I don't know, must be magic!"
Yep we are two different people indeed:
I see a thing ask why- and the answer comes back that it is G- I accept it and move on.
You see the same thing, get the same answer G, but decides that G absolutely cannot be the answer so you will keep on looking until you find an answer that suits you. In spite of the fact that all answers still say G.
All you are doing is simply reiterating your original point that simply because something exists that you define as complex, it must therefore imply a maker. Not so. You've not demonstrated any proof whatsoever. A crystal of ice is complex, no human or magic creature made it. It simply forms in nature.created by laws laid down by the Creator but take a gander at the A priori principle from philosophy (christians didn't make that one up either, so don't blame us).
If I remember it correctly, it states everything that exists has a cause. So extrapolating from this... Since the universe exists it has to have had a cause Since it could not have come into existence all by its lonesome self, it must have been caused to come into existence An external agent outside of time and space had to have caused it
Voila - back to the Big G again
You keep using the word fact, yet you present no evidence or instance of objective reality as required by the definition of what a fact is:
No one created God. He didn't spring into existence - He is the only self existant being in the universe. He did cause the universe to spring into existence though. And what an incredible artist is He!!
mathematics teaches us that infinite regression leads to self contradictory answers. So it begins and ends with God. That's why He's also known as the Alpha and the Omega. The Great I AM!
I keep using the word fact- because there's no other word to use.
I don't see how else to take all of these marvelous laws and rules and perfectly fined tuned systems that we see in nature, in the cosmos and could think they were randomly generated. No can do! It has to be fact of the Creator creating. The fact is there has to be intelligence behind it
It is clear we are simply two different kinds of people. I see things and ask: "Why?"
You see things, throw up your hands and say: "I don't know, must be magic!"
Yep we are two different people indeed:
I see a thing ask why- and the answer comes back that it is G- I accept it and move on.
You see the same thing, get the same answer G, but decides that G absolutely cannot be the answer so you will keep on looking until you find an answer that suits you. In spite of the fact that all answers still say G.
Really? Rain falls from the sky and your answer is god? Not the accumulation of water on small particles that then become heavy enough to be affected by gravity and thusly fall to earth?
You're fine with simply saying it was your magic friend? Oh well?
I hope you have not chosen science as your profession!
You reap many, many benefits given to you by those before who have never stopped questioning. These are your fellow human beings, your and my forefathers (and mothers). These are who you owe alligence to, not some magic sky creature.
You're correct: I do decide that god cannot be the answer. I have no evidence that such a thing exists and we simply don't live in the type of universe that would support the existence of a certain model of god(s).
It is clear we are simply two different kinds of people. I see things and ask: "Why?"
You see things, throw up your hands and say: "I don't know, must be magic!"
Yep we are two different people indeed:
I see a thing ask why- and the answer comes back that it is G- I accept it and move on.
You see the same thing, get the same answer G, but decides that G absolutely cannot be the answer so you will keep on looking until you find an answer that suits you. In spite of the fact that all answers still say G.
Really? Rain falls from the sky and your answer is god? Not the accumulation of water on small particles that then become heavy enough to be affected by gravity and thusly fall to earth? Already asked and answered – see my comment to your snowflake earlier.
You're fine with simply saying it was your magic friend? Oh well?
I hope you have not chosen science as your profession!
You reap many, many benefits given to you by those before who have never stopped questioning. These are your fellow human beings, your and my forefathers (and mothers). These are who you owe alligence to, not some magic sky creature. Of course I reap benefits from fore fathers questioning . And I’m thankful that they did and I’m thankful that others continue to do so, but I don’t intend to make science my god. Science is simply a method, nothing more, nothing less. And to think that it gives a complete description of the objective reality of the universe is the flawed premise. Science can only say so much. It can say almost nothing about the origin of the universe. Hawking eloquently asked "why is there something rather than nothing?" My allegiance is reserved for one being only – God. As Jeremiah 1:5 says God says “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you
You're correct: I do decide that god cannot be the answer. I have no evidence that such a thing exists and we simply don't live in the type of universe that would support the existence of a certain model of god(s).[/quote]See there we go with you not accepting the answer you’ve found, again.
Science: The universe is meaningless and it came from nothing, lets find out how it works Religion: The universe is very meaningful and came from a Great Creator, lets find out how The Creator made it.
Blackguy4you said Science: The universe is meaningless and it came from nothing, lets find out how it works Religion: The universe is very meaningful and came from a Great Creator, lets find out how The Creator made it.
Or, more accurately, science doesn't have the answer yet, and may not in my lifetime, but it will eventually, and I'm fine with that.
I don't fall into the trap of needing preposterous answers to questions simply because the logically correct answer hasn't been discovered yet.
Blackguy4you said Science: The universe is meaningless and it came from nothing, lets find out how it works Religion: The universe is very meaningful and came from a Great Creator, lets find out how The Creator made it.
Or, more accurately, science doesn't have the answer yet, and may not in my lifetime, but it will eventually, and I'm fine with that.
I don't fall into the trap of needing preposterous answers to questions simply because the logically correct answer hasn't been discovered yet.
Blackguy4you said Science: The universe is meaningless and it came from nothing, lets find out how it works Religion: The universe is very meaningful and came from a Great Creator, lets find out how The Creator made it.
Or, more accurately, science doesn't have the answer yet, and may not in my lifetime, but it will eventually, and I'm fine with that.
I don't fall into the trap of needing preposterous answers to questions simply because the logically correct answer hasn't been discovered yet.
Well spoken.
I'm sorry this is the view you have of science, Blackguy4you. I certainly do not think the universe is meaningless. How could I? I exist in it!
I find that that the framework of magic or an invisible super-being bolted on top of an explanation of reality a superfluous device and it inhibits meaningful discovery.
To willfully and persistently reject facts and choose to live in a self-induced state of ignorance seems to be the product of an insane mind.
the rest is simply a bunch of people purporting to believe, to varying degrees, that they have some form of answer to that which, by definition they cannot know. Why can we just not simply be happy accepting that certain things are unknowable, and subsequently make the best of what it is we have.
Heck, while you're at it, start planning on the postcards that you'll send us of heaven when you get there..jpg)
, the dominant idea is that the dead are abandoned forever. This idea of Sheol is negative in contrast to the world of life and light above, but there is no idea of judgment or of reward and punishment. If one faces extreme circumstances of suffering in the realm of the living above, as did Job, it can even be seen as a welcome relief from pain–see the third chapter of Job. But basically it is a kind of "nothingness," an existence that is barely existence at all, in which a "shadow" or "shade" of the former self survives (Ps. 88:10)