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  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jul 17, 2009 11:09 AM GMT
    what the fuck? Being that i was never around when this was on the air.....can someone explain what the purpose was.. and wasn't this offensive? at the time?--and if indeed they were trying to portray the black image...couldn't they find actors....im sure there were black musical actors? ....If you used to watched this program whether you were young or it was apart of your weekend viewing..how did you feel watching it?

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    Jul 17, 2009 11:13 AM GMT
    it's a show from 1978 and they are being.. I believe the term is golliwog.. which was a rag doll from the 19th century..
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    Jul 17, 2009 11:21 AM GMT
    well thats interesting, I just did some searching

    Apparently Golliwog is now considered a racial term used towards black people..

    I grew up with that term being used for a biscuit my dad used to eat and give to me when I was a good kid.. we used to eat them standing at the kitchen sink.

    I don't get why you've posted the videos though, they are very old when racial equality wasn't a big topic and PC hadn't yet gatecrashed any media.
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    Jul 17, 2009 11:22 AM GMT
    sorry i just edited the top..to ask my question.
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    Jul 17, 2009 11:33 AM GMT
    I'm sure someone who knows racial history better then I do will chime in.. but from what I remember, in 1978, the fight for equality was still kinda just really getting going and it wasn't too long after Martin Luther King gave his famous "I had a dream speech" (maybe half dozen years) so many things where still acceptable especially in more.. hmm not sure how to put it, but, more closed outta parts of the country.

    But then, it was a golliwog, I'm not entirely sure if it was viewed then as it is now, back then it really was a doll and sold to kids (black and white) and featured in a story of some sort I believe, so then, they might have actually just viewed it as a doll..

    These days things like that wouldn't make it in society, people would be in an uproar over stuff like that.. but then, you don't see many black dolls anymore.. or at least I don't in Australia but we are mostly comprised of white anglo saxon and asian people, so the sight of a african american inspired doll would be a lot more rare here then in teh US

    unfortunately the specifics of african american history alludes me to a great deal, I know bits and pieces but not enough to talk of any confidence about it, it just never featured as heavily in school, we focused mainly on the british suppression of the aboriginal population and so on more
  • MikePhilPerez

    Posts: 4357

    Jul 17, 2009 11:34 AM GMT
    lilTanker said
    Apparently Golliwog is now considered a racial term used towards black people..


    golliwog

    golliwog [gólli wog]
    (plural golliwogs) or golliwogg [gólli wog] (plural golliwoggs)
    n
    offensive term: an offensively grotesque cloth doll with a black face and hair and brightly coloured clothes. Now rarely made, the dolls are offensive to black people, as is the term itself. (offensive)


    [Late 19th century. After a character in books by US writer Bertha Upton (d. 1912)]


    I also grew up with Golliwog dolls. I don't think it was considered offensive back then. Was it?
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    Jul 17, 2009 11:37 AM GMT
    MikePhilPerez saidI also grew up with Golliwog dolls. I don't think it was considered offensive back then. Was it?

    neither of us grew up in the US either where this was taking place..

    Its like the word coon, I was shocked to find out what it meant else where.. here, its a brand of bloody cheese, tasty cheese at that..
  • MikePhilPerez

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    Jul 17, 2009 11:38 AM GMT
    There are more black dolls here in Ireland now than when I was a kid.
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    Jul 17, 2009 11:41 AM GMT

    This reminds me of this Brit comedy TV series "Mind Your Language"...



    I still find it funny but from the present young Brit audience, they find it quite racy and guilty-ing to laugh at.
  • MikePhilPerez

    Posts: 4357

    Jul 17, 2009 11:42 AM GMT
    lilTanker said
    MikePhilPerez saidI also grew up with Golliwog dolls. I don't think it was considered offensive back then. Was it?

    neither of us grew up in the US either where this was taking place..

    Its like the word coon, I was shocked to find out what it meant else where.. here, its a brand of bloody cheese, tasty cheese at that..


    You know the strange thing is, I believe my grandmother got those dolls in the US. I could be wrong though.
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    Jul 17, 2009 11:44 AM GMT
    MikePhilPerez saidThere are more black dolls here in Ireland now than when I was a kid.

    I honestly couldn't say, I remember playing with Barbie as a kid hahaha but I haven't really kept up with whats currantly in

    I do know they had this stupid doll fad couple of years ago, they had big massive heads and tiny bodies, my niece had them and there was an I assume, african american, asian and anglo saxon, all suffering from the same affliction of a massive head
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    Jul 17, 2009 11:51 AM GMT
    I remember Naomi Cambell was being a bitch on a BA plane a while back and one of the stewardesses called her a golliwog supermodel and it made the front page of all the papers here

    We went to a party with a cartoon and my friend went as a golliwog and there was a lot of strong reactions to it. A lot of irrational reactions to it too, people knew it was socially inappropriate but not many could express why

    n514222041_1423412_4737809.jpg

    PS. I went as DUFF-MAN!
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    Jul 17, 2009 11:54 AM GMT
    well I found on wikipedia (I know, I know..settle down)

    in australia, we've a term, wog, used for and by greeks, Lebanese and so on and so on, it can kinda be used insultingly, but, I've never been around anyone who has, my brother in law is considered a wog, he uses the term, I've used the term and have done others too.. I never connected the dots on it that wog might have been derived from golliwog and I qoute

    In Australia many young people of Greek, Lebanese and other Mediterranean descent have adopted the name "wog" as a humorous identifier. An example of this from popular Australian culture is the 2000 movie The Wog Boy starring the actor Nick Giannopoulos.

    interesting stuff and apparently it's been getting bandied about a far bit too without me noticing.. the term golliwog that is.. OOH there was even a golliwog on play school a tv show here..

    I still mostly knew it as a biscuit I had with my dad as a kid.. now thinking about it though, it sounds utterly terrible as I think of the things I said as a kid..

    MsclDrew, that photo was actually kinda funny, it's so wrong now.. I really need to stop being so naive
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jul 17, 2009 12:10 PM GMT
    MikePhilPerez saidThere are more black dolls here in Ireland now than when I was a kid.


    Yes. We had three dolls. All of them black women with brown to blond hair with very outsized heads. Used to think they were very funny. One was kneeling, eyes closed, lips pouting in a 'kiss me' expression; another was lying on her side smiling; and the last one was sitting and just smiling. I never knew where they were from, but Mom always treated them with some sort of affection so I gathered they are quite valuable. I got the impression that they were quite old. Probably 1940's or something.

    As for the OP, it's called Blackface. It's historical. They were a very big part of American entertainment and was only started to get actively abolished in the 1950's. Most were quite racist but some were instrumental in introducing the American Black culture to whites, especially their music. Some of the most loved singers in the early 1900's for instance performed in blackface. Note that the videos you embedded were meant to be historically accurate, it was not done to be racist. If anything else, it reminds Americans how ridiculous some parts of their cultures were. It was even a traditional part of the Mummer's parade. If you censor every depiction of blackface, you will only make them forget, as you yourself have. You seem to have never seen it before.

    It's not limited to blacks either. White Americans have also portrayed asians, east indians, mexicans, and native americans by painting their skin performing stereotypical stuff (yellowface, brownface, redface, etc). Although not to the same popularity as blackface achieved. I think it was in some way, a way to assuage the guilt of Americans about the slavery. Make them feel better about themselves by caricaturing what they fully know are fellow human beings so they can distance themselves to the fact that they are enslaving people.

    In the Philippines, we have a similar thing going on during festivals or fiestas. Some street dance performers would paint their bodies black to make them look like the aboriginal tribes here, the Aitas especially in the Ati-Atihan Festival, who were Melanesoid (superficially looks very much African, though the hair can sometimes be of lighter colors like in the Australian Aborigines). But this wasn't racist in any way (there was no performing of the stereotypes), more like pride in our origins. In our province it's a different tribe, the Manobo, who were Malay, and thus performers during the Kaamulan Festival would also dress up like Manobo people, etc etc.

    But yeah. Why are you surprised about it? It's very much a part of history. I thought all black people would've known about it.


  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jul 17, 2009 12:10 PM GMT
    Do you know or remember the '90s Mexican soap "Mari Mar" which was (ridiculously) dubbed and shown in at least 50 countries?
    marimar+1.jpg

    I played the black nanny 'Corazon' at some point in my horrorful gay life. Well, Filipinos loved it.icon_lol.gif
    6215_111078916244_669316244_2673817_1856

    Now that is an RJ exclusive that Facebook hasn't even seen ...yet. icon_wink.gificon_cool.gificon_lol.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jul 17, 2009 12:11 PM GMT
    LMAO zim. Marimar AW!
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    Jul 17, 2009 12:16 PM GMT
    SED - don't you get any ideas!! Will upload them soon. You know very well in my Facebook, timing is everything.
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    Jul 17, 2009 12:20 PM GMT
    I always wanted to slap Marimar senseless. All that "I'm so innocent, I don't even know what sex is, I'm also helpless and I faint all the time" kind of thing going on... LOL!

    Ah... spanish telenovelas....
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    Jul 17, 2009 2:14 PM GMT
    i just dont understand why seeing this wouldnt make the person wearing the getup feel ashamed.....i remember the first time i moved to ny there was a parade and on one of the floats.. a group of nypd officers dressed up in in afros painted there faces black with red lip paint.....they were fined i believed for being racially inconsiderate....So if people can frown upon this act in todays society..im sure people back in the 50s and 70s didnt really like seeing it either...
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    Jul 17, 2009 2:29 PM GMT
    Actually, the American musical theater grew out of the minstrel show which had its basis in the music of the African-american culture. The original performers were black. That is why white performers who wanted to perform wore black make-up. In fact, some black performers had to wear black face so that there was a consistency in the skin color of the performing troupe.

    This course by The Teaching Company has a great deal of the history of African-americans in the American musical theater. It discusses many performers who were famous in their day.

    If you are interested in such history, I highly recommend the course. But wait until it goes on sale to get it at an affordable price. The lecturer is delightful to listen to.

    http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/CourseDescLong2.aspx?cid=7318

    broadway_musicals.jpg
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    Jul 17, 2009 2:43 PM GMT

    It's history, tereseus1, and without it, society repeats itself (shudders)


    Here :

    http://www.musicals101.com/minstrel.htm


    More importantly, it shows people we should be proud and happy at how far society has come. As awful as we can perceive the world to be, there have been amazing and absolutely wonderful changes that have made the world a better place.
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    Jul 17, 2009 2:53 PM GMT
    Sedative saidI always wanted to slap Marimar senseless. All that "I'm so innocent, I don't even know what sex is, I'm also helpless and I faint all the time" kind of thing going on... LOL!

    That's almost you quoting yourself! But I'd deffo help you slap yourself. Slapper. hahahahahha
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jul 17, 2009 3:02 PM GMT
    As Caslon says, blackface is a 19th-Century US theatrical tradition that extended into the first decades after 1900. It is almost universally considered offensive & racist today, but its historicity cannot be denied.

    Personally I strongly dislike it. Clearly it marginalized and mocked Black people, as White people sang Black gospel, ballads and minstrel numbers, the kind of entertainment presented on river showboats and music halls over 100 years ago.

    Since the opportunities for Blacks to perform their own music before White audiences was limited, Whites performed it in their place, in blackface, an exaggerated caricature of Africans, with coal black skin and broad white lips. I find it repulsive.

    The vaudeville performer Al Jolson, immortalized by introducing the first talking motion picture in 1927, was known for singing a Black-themed song called "Mammy" in classic blackface, which was incorporated in that movie. Any biographical film about Jolson must inevitably portray those blackface performances, which is what we see in the YouTube clip in the OP.

    Blackface is an historical fact and oddity. The less attention paid to it the better, and let it rest in peace, and never be seen again.
  • coolarmydude

    Posts: 9190

    Jul 17, 2009 4:43 PM GMT
    tereseus1 saidi just dont understand why seeing this wouldnt make the person wearing the getup feel ashamed.....i remember the first time i moved to ny there was a parade and on one of the floats.. a group of nypd officers dressed up in in afros painted there faces black with red lip paint.....they were fined i believed for being racially inconsiderate....So if people can frown upon this act in todays society..im sure people back in the 50s and 70s didnt really like seeing it either...



    Oh no. The PC didn't start until the mid-80s when Equal Opportunity became a front and center mindset in the American workplace. Remember that what was going on in theatre followed what happened in law.


    Look at the Tom and Jerry cartoons. On occasion, you will see that the owner is a black woman in stereotypical fashion.
  • MikemikeMike

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    Jul 17, 2009 4:51 PM GMT
    It was the times. I don't find it amusing, but if you look at old Americana alot of woman were mammy's and looked after rich people's kids, especially down south and the black american culture was far less educated. Looki at gone with the wind, imitation of life, so many black and white movies portrayed blacks this way. Now I still feel the same. It is backward and offensive. When I was a kid we dressed as hobos for Halloween and were told not to make our faces black. I NEVER did I burnt a wine cork and gave myself a beard, and used the cork as a cigar.