Gay equality!

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 01, 2007 2:07 PM GMT
    I was watching a homosexual broadcast the other day and i listened to a half hour of homosexuals complaining about gay rights and how we don't have any. Gays should have every right because we are the new Jewish people from the holocaust or the new African Americans from slavery because just like them we have no rights. When i heard this my mouth dropped because i was shocked we would ever have a comparison to tragedy. Forcing gay to be an issue isn't helping an issue,with shows like queer as folk and events like gay days the and the summer long pride events i would think we would tend to be happy.Than i thought,once upon a time i went to these events and all i saw was arguing and drinking and promiscuity and gay men acting out for no purpose.


    Why should homosexuals ask for gay rights? Especially when we can't respect ourselves at our own events!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 01, 2007 2:12 PM GMT
    It is wrong to categorize all gay men. Not every gay man is a gogo dancer on a float at a gay pride parade, not everyone is promiscuous or even drinks. The gay community has those elements, from the escorts, and drug dealers to the doctors and lawyers. Regardless of what you do in your life you should be treated equally.

  • HndsmKansan

    Posts: 16305

    Dec 01, 2007 3:06 PM GMT
    Well I tend to agree with Hippie. I think there also is a distinction between "equal rights" and "special rights". The issue comes up with things like civil unions and gay marriage. Some consider this an "equal right" and right wingers would construe this as "special rights" afforded gays.

    Things like partner benefits (provided at a workplace)
    are less of an issue (partially because it isn't front and center) and are viewed more as "equal rights" in my view.

    So.. the question goes back to.. are "gay rights" "special" or "equal"? Interesting question.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 01, 2007 4:04 PM GMT
    if your problem can't get enough attention, try to relate it to a bigger issue. one day we might even hear gay rights and 911 together. lol

    I wonder does acceptance nullified discernment?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 01, 2007 4:07 PM GMT
    There is no difference between a homo, jew, or John Doe from Texas. We all are americans and as such we have the natural right to demand equal treatment under law and society.

    Our struggle is just making everyone see it that way. Christian right included icon_wink.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 01, 2007 4:11 PM GMT
    Trance23 you so PC
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 01, 2007 11:15 PM GMT
    because it is not an issue of us deserving those rights- i agree, most of the gay population is degenerate and skanky- but quite simply: the constitution says that all men are created equal, and that we are all entitled to the same rights and liberties, i.e. the pursuit of happiness. what this abstract phraseology translates into is this- that it is unconstitutional, undemocratic, and un-American to set any group of people aside for their differences (especially genetic differences!) and say to them, "no, you can't have what they do, you're different." that's it in a nutshell. we're entitled to the same rights, marital and otherwise, that the rest of the population enjoys. the rights we're lacking and seeking aren't privileges one has to earn or deserve, they're basic, and what's more, this country can't claim to be a nation under god with liberty and justice FOR ALL, until those rights are given to us.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 01, 2007 11:20 PM GMT
    You agree that "most of the gay population is degenerate and worthless"??

    Do you maybe have some issues there of your own?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 02, 2007 12:06 AM GMT
    in response to that post:

    lol i haven't met very many gay men who aren't promiscuous and dishonest, though maybe that's more of a universal male condition than a gay one, i admit. most are mentally or at least emotionally unbalanced, being insecure (which shows itself as cattiness, superficiality, immaturity, and the tendency to never outgrow the 'token gay' stereotype persona many adopt invariably when first coming out)- most likely due to the psychological stress put on them by society and religion, manifest in the state of 'being closeted,' which i think many underestimate in sheer psychological trauma. i'm not saying ALL gays are this way, just saying that the ones worth talking to, let alone dating lol, are in my experience far and few between, in statistical relation to the population on the whole. i know my boyfriend is an amazing guy with quite a lot of intelligence and heart, with a good head on his shoulders- he's a rarity, to be sure, and i treasure him. i have gay friends (though not many) who are worth my time to talk to. but soooo many of the gay men i've been exposed to thus far, through what few clubs/bars i've wasted my time in, school, gyms, work, the internet, and every-day life, have been disappointments at best. can any argue otherwise? to do so is perhaps to be dishonest with oneself concerning the state of our population, and to indulge in an optimism and idealism which is rather unrealistic.

    i think, perhaps, that the 'anything goes' mentality most of us are afflicted with- the bizarre 'open relationships,' and the promiscuity, is a result of religion's condemnation of us (for those of us who were raised to care what religion has to say)- 'if we're gonna burn in hell anyways just for being ourselves, why not have fun along the way?' or perhaps it has more to do with the suffocating disapproval felt from society at large, subliminally reminding us in every advertisement, every movie, every book, by depicting and marketing to straight couples only, of how different and unnatural we're seen to be. Yet again, it could be the disapproval most of us receive from our parents- so many kicked out of our homes for coming out! its frightening how many homeless gay youth there are. one can hardly blame most of us for being so messed up.

    some of us are lucky- to have been raised in a more liberal and open-minded locality, to have unconditionally loving parents/family, to have supportive friends and to have been brought up with good values... but too few of us. the situation's getting better, socially, i think... but we're not there yet. while i won't say, in reference to your remark, that i don't have any 'problems,' (i think there isn't a single man alive who doesn't have demons to wrestle with) i can, however, say that i was fortunately blessed with an accepting/loving family, a more traditional/conservative upbringing (good values), in an area that was pretty liberal and open minded. i have not yet had a negative reaction from anyone for being openly gay (though perhaps that has a lot to do with not hitting on straight men, making those around me uncomfortable with flamboyance, exhibiting anti-social behavior, or flouting 'gay pride') since having come out completely during my sophomore year of high school, and am even embraced and supported by my fraternity for being as such. so i'd say my insecurities have more to do with having been overweight in middle school lol, and in thinking my neck is too scrawny, to answer your implied question. :p

    however, as i said, i don't think any of this factors into the issue at hand in this forum- gay rights are rights, and we are entitled to them whether one has an optimistic or a pessimistic view of the population.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 02, 2007 1:28 AM GMT
    I can't believe how judgmental you all are! "Bizarre 'open relationships,' and the promiscuity" and "degenerate and worthless!"

    What is bizarre to you might work perfectly well for someone else.

    Don't be fooled into thinking that a great many don't see you as equally bizarre and worthless; even though you don't "argue and drink and act out and be promiscuous." Just the fact that you are attracted to your own sex is enough. Now, get down of off your pedestal, Mary!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 02, 2007 2:11 AM GMT

    Haha, Czarodziej, maybe what you are attempting to purport is true to your own egocentric philosophy, but the fact that you admit your own fallacy (via hasty generalization) in the first sentence of your last post gives no credence to your overall argument.

    And what of your own self? One could say your own profile perpetuates negative gay stereotypes... if you have to ask why then take a shallower look.

    icon_biggrin.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 02, 2007 2:37 AM GMT
    czarodziej wrote: "...most of the gay population is degenerate and skanky..."

    Youth is SO WASTED on the young.

    BTW - catagorizing Ohio as 'Liberal may be an oxymoron.

    Aside from the obviously skewed perceptions of our young visitor: a product of mainstream media in a homophobic culture; the original poster should be content with the dozens of other threads where this topic has been extensively discussed ad nauseum.

    Those young people that doubt the efficacy of gays standing up for their rights and the Pride movement in general should study their own history prior to Stonewall (Ever hear of Matachine?).

    Suffice it to say that the very litle acceptance and tolerance you experience today came from the hard sacrafices of the disenfranchised you so liberally spurn and despise.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 02, 2007 3:35 AM GMT
    im just in school here in ohio, i'm from maryland, between baltimore, annapolis, and DC. and i don't spurn or despise gay activists. its the thong-wearing, feather flouting, be-glittered, dildo waving guys in parades who serve only to separate us further from what we seek by pushing something obnoxiously MORE than base-difference in the face of already-uncomfortable straights, who i would say are hindering rather than helping the cause icon_razz.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 02, 2007 3:36 AM GMT
    Be nice guys,it's just a discussion!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 02, 2007 3:58 AM GMT
    People need to accept that people are people. There is no definition of how one should comport themselves aside from the arbitrary and self-serving demarcations set forth by political and social institutions.

    As long as they don't wave the dildo in my face, obstructing my view of the gorgeous men, by all means - have at it.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 02, 2007 4:11 AM GMT
    I would like to make a little comment in regards to mentioning of Stonewall. Do you know that at the beginning of Stonewall, gay men were extremely sexist and kicked lesbians out of the movement? Hmm a nice way to fight discrimination is to create it. Then in the 1970's, the whole fight for rights turned into gay men forming bath houses and "gay" disco WHILE lesbians worked hard at creating underground newspapers and spreading the knowledge via concerts across the nation. So then came the whole big outbreak of AIDS leaving the gay men helpless because a vast majority of the gay population was partying it up and fucking around in the bathhouses. SO guess who saved the gay men from all the doom and despair of healthcare discrimination and funding? None other than the lesbos. The lesbians actually had been working on healthcare issues for quite some time and actually saw that helping gay men was a progressive cause and movement towards equality. The point that I'm trying to make is that people need to quit fucking COMPLAINING and COMPARING themselves to much harsher realities and do something about the injustice! A lot people never realize how much power they really have. I mean at least gay people can openly say something about being discriminated when thousands in Darfur are being murdered because of their race and can't voice it as much!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 02, 2007 4:17 AM GMT
    The squeeky wheel gets the grease.

    No minority subculture has ever acheived parity in Society by appeassement of the mainstream.

    The attitude that prevails among that segment of the gay population that is assimilationist is dangerous simply because it is devisive. It is an attempt to devide and seperate - an attempt to seperate one group from the rest of the minority as being somehow 'superior' or acceptable.

    Those devisions are what THEY use, to divide and control US. (No, I am not a conspiracy theorist, I am speaking from a socio-political group view).

    The more THEY can convince a minority of the subjugated minority to disassociate itself from the rest of the minority, the easier it is to deal with the remainder. Don't believe me? Look at what the Republicans have done with the Log Cabin Republicans.

    The social pressure by the mainstream to force conformity is simply not adventageous to a social minority agenda.

    "its the thong-wearing, feather flouting, be-glittered, dildo waving guys in parades who serve only to separate us further from what we seek by pushing something obnoxiously MORE than base differentness ..."

    It is only those people who get the attention for their OUTRAGEOUS behaviour that get noticed.

    Go to any PRIDE DAY celebration you wish, look around you, I think if you are honest that you will quickly note that the 'virtually normal' mainstream communitty groups dominate everywhere by a 10:1 margin. The Swim groups, the western and Country dance groups, the communitty center groups, the chorus's, the bands, the softball teams, etc.

    Yes, the outrageous do get the 10 second spot on the nightly news; but if it were not for them, the mainstream media would try to pass off the entire celebration as if it had never taken place.

    "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Those who do not remember their past are condemned to repeat their mistakes." - George Santayana



  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 02, 2007 4:26 AM GMT

    A wonderful insight, ITJock, thank you.



  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 02, 2007 4:42 AM GMT
    hmmmmm I find it very strange that you would speak of people standing up and fighting against social pressures when you can't even show your face on a gay website.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 02, 2007 5:46 AM GMT
    stlonghorn, "hmmmmm I find it very strange that you would speak of people standing up and fighting against social pressures when you can't even show your face on a gay website."

    Don't assume you know the reason why ITJock is not showing his photo. Besides, whether he has a photo here has no bearing on his ability to speak to the need to embrace ALL aspects of our community, not just the sides that you agree with. You are just committing the fallacy of tu quoque.

    Besides, this whole "they give us a bad name" argument is more then fifty years old, and getting mighty tiresome. Just remember, it was drag queens who fought back first at Stonewall.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 02, 2007 6:28 AM GMT
    stlonghorn wrote : "hmmmmm I find it very strange that you would speak of people standing up and fighting against social pressures when you can't even show your face on a gay website."

    Tu Quoque reasoning aside (as a diversionary tactic, Tu Quoque can be very effective in removing the spotlight from the essential truth of the original argument) several people here have made the assumptions you have elsewhere on the board with regard to others. So maybe the third time I explain will be the charm.

    Actually, as I have explained to some others here that have asked (on at least two other threads over a period of time), there are several reasons why I choose not to post a picture. None of them have to do with a perception of danger in ‘showing my face on a gay website’.

    I made the mistake several years ago of posting several pictures of myself online. While I don’t think I am above average in any way, quite a few people decided to appropriate my photo’s to misrepresent themselves.

    It took two+ years to track down all the hijacked images and have them removed. In a couple cases I had to threaten legal action. In one case the police were involved because of fraud on the part of one of the people who stole my images.

    Now, I am extremely careful what I do.

    I am not here to engage in looking for dating or personal hookups. I originally came here because an acquaintance wrote some columns for this website. I joined the bulletin board for social and interest reasons, but see no reason to put an image of myself on here. I am happily partnered and have never contacted anyone on this website looking to introduce myself for dating, personal hookups, etc.

    A secondary consideration is that any decent photos I have of myself are about a decade old, and I do not wish to misrepresent myself.

    Sometime in the coming year, I may have some new photos taken. (I admit to being extremely camera shy, for a wide variety of reasons: barring some family slides of me as a child, there are only a couple dozen photos of me in existence. I think I know where all of them are. ) When I do have new photos taken, I will look for the most secure way I can find of posting them so that they do not get hijacked again.

    Whether you believe me or not is immaterial to me – again – since I am not looking to build a personal relationship here.

    The half dozen website BB’s I frequent (Sports, Fitness, Health, etc) for recreational reasons are simply a time killer for me between doing other things.

    I don’t post my image on professional websites, so why should I find it important to do so here?

    If after reading what I wrote, you dismiss my reasoned thoughts and opinions as garbage, would it make a difference if I represented myself with a photo of Billy Beane or one of Lyle Lovett ? If it would make a difference to you, then I suggest you are not paying attention to what I write so much as you are responding to that image.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 02, 2007 6:50 AM GMT
    This is the message that people need to hear and learn from. Also, have you heard of practice what you preach?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 02, 2007 6:55 AM GMT
    Yet another magnificent piece of inspirational close-reasoning by Professor Crocker.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 02, 2007 7:04 AM GMT
    I do see your points but when you made that asinine remark that "youth is so wasted on the young," you obviously exhibited that you are guilty of making generalized, judgmental statements as well! Have you seen your generation lately?!? It isn't comprised completely of activists and kind hearted Samaritans! Also, I was correlating how you support a cause of showing the world your true self to fight back when you don't embody that on this website. Every single person on this site is at risk of having their identity stolen. Just like every person that roams the street as a crossdresser takes the risk of being assaulted!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 02, 2007 8:27 AM GMT
    stlonghorn wrote :

    I do see your point but I find it to be a tad hypocritical to support a cause that you obviously can't embody yourself. The obvious reasons for not showing your identity are because you have fear of people finding out that you're gay or it's a threat to career prospectives. Well doesn't that sound like "conforming" to the majority or to what seems "normal".

    Wow – Even after what I have just written, you seem bound and determined to try to discredit my arguments by diverting the subject away from the topic, and into a personal attack on me. I have already answered both of your erroneous assertions.

    Let's take the African American struggle for racial equality. What would you think that if a person publicly outspoke [sic (spoke out?)] against black oppression, following discriminating orders of the white people, other black people that wouldn't speak out for more rights, and supported the bus boycotts continued to not only ride the bus, but would give up their seat on bus for a white passenger? Wouldn't that be seen as being hypocritical and catering to values of racial discrimination?

    If you want me to actually respond to that you will have to clean up the grammar and logic, because I certainly can’t follow it. IF I understand you correctly, then you are asking if a spokesperson publicly stated one thing, and then obeyed the prevailing mores of society and the law by following mainstream custom and law, would that person be hypocritical and catering to values of racial discrimination?

    Perhaps if you agree with Mohandas Gandhi that evil should never be accommodated, and should be resisted at all costs with Satyagraha (passive mass civil disobedience).

    I would posit that there are few people in this world who can live up to the ideals of a Gandhi or a Dr King. Even those two recognized political expediency and objective realism in their dealings with an imperfect world.

    In either case I don’t believe that either applies to me since I gave you the reasons for my reluctance to post photos, despite disregard for my actual arguments, and your assumptions that I am personally dishonest and living in fear.


    I'm not saying that all gay people "give us a bad name." The point I was trying to make was that people always complain about not having rights but do just that. They expect to reap all of the benefits without doing the work.

    So because someone disagrees with you what is the best way to fight for civil rights then you posit that they are ‘complaining’ and ‘unwilling’ to work for those rights? Because you find someone else’s behaviour personally embarrassing – or you believe that it creates a poor public image – you believe that they should change who they essentially are in order to conform to the mores of a larger social minority? Doesn’t that strike you as hypocritical? As smacking of just the kind of judgmental attitudes (and thought process) we are trying to overturn?

    Let me ask a question in turn. Do you think the African-American civil rights movement would have succeeded if its leaders had refused the assistance of anyone who was mulatto, or of a different race altogether? What about those who simply aren’t ‘black enough’?

    Many advertising executives would tell you “There's no such thing as bad publicity. As long as they spell the name right. As long as your face and name is out there.”


    Do you actually think that people being promiscuous and acting "outrageously" at inappropriate times is actually making a political statement against discrimination?

    “There is no such thing as bad publicity except your own obituary.” - Brendan Behan

    They call attention to the problem. I think it may be better than being totally ignored. I don’t believe that the people who hate gays would hate us any less if they did not exist. I believe with everything in my core that it makes not one single iota of difference to the misguided evangelical religionist extremists whether I am a flaming transvestite transexual drag queen on parade, or a buttoned down HSM suit wearing wall street lawyer in a boardroom. They would hate just as much, they would still seek to descriminate based on a false sense of entitlement.


    Do you think supporting popular culture that exhibits homosexuals as mindless sluts that only care about drinking is truly grabbing the right kind of attention?

    It is attention. When people would seek to deny your very existence, it is one way of stating to the world that you will not go quietly into the night.

    And how dare someone compare the fight for gay rights is on the same level as the Holocaust. Not only is that asinine, but that is extremely disrespectful and self-indulged.

    How many gays have been killed, murdered, in the last hundred years – all over the world – simply because they were gay? I feel confident in stating that the number is probably in the tens of thousands. When we are talking about the mass murder of innocents does the actual number of people affected by the genocide make a difference?

    There was a great little ‘gay’ movie that came out a couple years ago –it was called ‘Poster boy’ – one of the main characters does a short monologue to a reporter…

    “Don't you get it? Issues are what they use to divide us. Sexual orientation, race, gender... All issues that don't actually pertain to anyone except those being cut out and thrown away by the issue. Does it really matter to some farmer in Kansas whether or not two men get married in Vermont? But see, they need us to choose sides. They create these issues for us to cling to, to grasp at. You know they separate us into these divisions: Black, White, Gay, Straight, Rich, Poor. Blame it Christian, Liberal, Democrat, Conservative. Split. Different. Opposed. How can a cause be just if it puts people against each other?”


    I do see your points but when you made that asinine remark that "youth is so wasted on the young," you obviously exhibited that you are guilty of making generalized, judgmental statements as well! Have you seen your generation lately?!? It isn't comprised completely of activists and kind hearted Samaritans!

    I think I will have general agreement form most people here that the assimilationist arguments, and the embarrassment expressed, generally come from younger men such as yourself who are relatively new to the community, have not been OUT for very long, and are generally uneducated about the issues of gay civil rights and its attendant history. Such arguments are self evident proof that mainstream social pressure and socialization by the dominant social order are incredibly powerfull.



    Thank you,

    Rob