Straight Men are from Mars, Straight Women from Venus. Are Gay Men from.......

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    Dec 01, 2007 8:03 PM GMT
    Pluto? Is Pluto where there are two stereotypical factions fighting a war for control of the planet; one the radical fairies, the other, the “straight acting” queers?

    I wanted to start a new thread on a discussion from a recent thread called “Gayisms”, because some of the remarks being made seemed to need further thought but did not seem to fit into the original question asked. I am referring to the remarks made by ObsceneWish, a sample of which is below:

    “Ever wonder why every time this subject comes up, it becomes a way of informing everyone else how un-gay you seem?
    I'm sorry to break this to you, but straight people have learned to say this shit in the way they learn any other cliche. They've learned that many gay men take great pride in not being ‘clockable.’
    I'm not talking about hitting on you before they know you, Liftordie. I'm talking about the language that follows it, the usual ‘what a waste’ or ‘you don't act gay,’ etc. It's predictable. Everyone here has heard basically the same reaction at one time or another.
    Those are cliches that many gay men enjoy hearing because they think it signifies their not being stereotypical. But it's really naive not to realize that those comments are a kind of conditioned stereotypical response themselves.”

    “…most gay men who think they aren't gender-deviant to some degree are delusional. And I think a veritable language has evolved to negotiate this situation. It both flatters the gay man and preserves negative stereotypes.

    “That was very much the attitude of the gay liberation movement, Tim -- the belief that there were many advantages to being an outlaw. It was the job of gay people to lead the culture, rather than attempt assimilation by it. It began morphing back to the assimilationist perspective soon after AIDS erupted. ‘Normality’ is the new closet.”

    By acting “normal” (read straight) are gay men creating a newer (but very nicely decorated) closet? If your not “clockable” are you avoiding your “gender deviancy” and therefore expressing a delusion?

    What are your opinions and/or thoughts about this please?icon_question.gif|

    Here are mine:
    First, of all I am not trying to counter what ObsceneWish has written. I do not know if any scientific studies, either sociological or psychological, have been done to verify any of the above comments.

    Why is there a whole spectrum of gay behaviour out there (from very girlie men to kick-ass rugby dudes)? I think this has more to do with nature than nurture, but certainly nurture must play an important part in how we see ourselves. It has been my observation (not a scientific fact here) that the more oppressed or ridiculed a population of gay men is, the more effeminate-leaning men there are. Since there has been a decrease in oppression over the years and gay men are beginning to feel accepted, or at least tolerated, in some societies around the world, might that be a possible reason for the increase in masculine gay men? Here in Spain, over 80% of people polled thought that gay men should be treated equally under the law and should be able to get married. This poll was taken around the time two years ago when the parliament passed the law giving full equal rights to gays. It is my observation that the overwhelming majority of gay men here are “masculine acting”. Is that perhaps because of the acceptance or are there other causalities at play here?

    As for myself, I think that I am perfectly queer and I like it that way. I have heard the same unbelievable comments from people about my masculinity as the above but then I have heard and seen recordings of myself. Trying to be subjective about myself is difficult but my gaydar screams "gay man".


  • Timbales

    Posts: 13993

    Dec 01, 2007 9:48 PM GMT

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    Dec 01, 2007 11:12 PM GMT
    That's it! Timberoo answered it right off. Next thread... icon_lol.gif
  • liftordie

    Posts: 823

    Dec 01, 2007 11:30 PM GMT
    OMG i have not read that much text since my senior year in high school!!
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    Dec 01, 2007 11:42 PM GMT

    lmao, "Uranus". Love it! icon_lol.gif

    Going off on a's old news but Pluto's no longer classified as a planet! We have 8 official planets in our solar system at this time! icon_eek.gif

    Still can't get over it...icon_neutral.gif
  • UVaRob9

    Posts: 282

    Dec 01, 2007 11:48 PM GMT
    Not to sound like too much of a nerd, but Pluto never made sense as a planet anyway. How is it that you go from 4 solid planets to 4 gas giants and then have one last *tiny* solid planet? But then again, I try to avoid planetariums anyway (odd phobia, long story).
  • mv03

    Posts: 201

    Dec 02, 2007 12:05 AM GMT
    Pluto will always be a planet. If there's an issue with it being a planet, they need to figure that out up front...Don't teach me for 20 years that there are nine planets, then all of a sudden start with that, "It's an asteroid' shit. I agree with my friend who was drunk in the bar and went off about it (he's an astronomy major):

    Drunken DominicThey're acting like a sociopathic cunts on a power trip. Don't lie and say you're going to make it a f*cking planet, and then turn and and start denouncing it as an asteroid, and when we start calling it a planet, you try to pull the "this isn't a planet" bullshit. F*ck you, you classified it as a planet. Admit you classified this as planet, and face the consequences of the classification. You f*cking cunts.

    Welcome to my world, LOL.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 02, 2007 12:13 AM GMT
    "By acting “normal” (read straight) are gay men creating a newer (but very nicely decorated) closet? If your not “clockable” are you avoiding your “gender deviancy” and therefore expressing a delusion?"

    Well, that's not exactly what I said, or meant to say.

    I think the number of gay men who aren't "clockable" after an hour around them is very small. Where they aren't identifiable, I don't presume that it's anything but their natural persona.

    Everyone's heard the story of someone coming out and everyone around him saying the same thing: "Well, duh! We thought you'd never say so." I've mentioned before that I've worked with a lot of married gay men. I've never worked with a single one whose wife didn't know or deeply suspect he was gay when he finally came out.

    So my thinking is that many straight people conspire to protect gay people's identity by not mentioning it even when it's obvious. This in turn reinforces the gay man's belief that he's not "obvious" -- that he's conventionally masculine -- and it allows the straight person to avoid the discomfort of dealing with the issue generally. And both end up preserving a stereotype that practically nobody actually represents.

    I do think the fetishizing of the "normal" and the hypermasculine, along with the desire to assimilate completely, is a new kind of closet. But that's because I believe gay people are different in ways other than their sexual orientation.

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    Dec 02, 2007 12:30 AM GMT
    Oh, I would pick Saturn over Pluto, which is named after the ruler of the underworld. Although Saturn was autocratic and is associated with depression, he also lends his name to the festival of Saturnalia (which is held this month).

    During the week-long Roman festival, everything was inverted -- slaves assumed the role of their masters and vice-versa, for example. That's kinda what gay people have done in the culture: We turn things upside down, whether it's through our sex lives, our humor or our sabotage of gender stereotypes.
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    Dec 02, 2007 12:35 AM GMT
    jupiter! bigger is better
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 02, 2007 12:37 AM GMT
    Earth. Let's get some balls and go for the best one!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 02, 2007 2:01 AM GMT
    Yeah, I'm down with Earth too.

    I'm sorry to say that I had to skim your blurb Alex but I think what you're trying to say is that gender, sex, sexuality, and sexual orientation are different things and too often the lines blur and people mistake what it all means (for example: "He's pretty gay." "gay" meaning effeminate, when gender expression has nothing to do with sexual orientation.) Yes?

    Speaking of Uranus...

    Wikipedia Uranian is a nineteenth century term that referred to a person of a third sex — originally, someone with "a female psyche in a male body" who is sexually attracted to men, and later extended to cover what today are known as transgender women, and a number of other sexual types. It is believed to be an English adaptation of the German word Urning, which was first published by activist Karl Heinrich Ulrichs in 1864 and 1865 in a series of five booklets which were collected under the title Forschungen über das Räthsel der mannmännlichen Liebe ("The Riddle of Man-Manly Love"). Ulrich developed his terminology before the first public use of the term "homosexual", which appeared in 1869 in a pamphlet published anomymously by Karl-Maria Kertbeny.
  • iHavok

    Posts: 1477

    Dec 02, 2007 3:00 AM GMT
    Yeah Uranus came to mind first, but who says we have to rely on the puns?

    And I agree, Pluto will always be a planet in my heart! lol
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    Dec 02, 2007 3:20 AM GMT
    I'm down with Earth too... we've had enough of these silly metaphors.
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    Dec 02, 2007 5:29 AM GMT
    I thought Tops were from Mars, Bottoms from Venus and Uranus is just a great vacation spot.icon_wink.gif

    What about versatile? What can I say, dual citizenship has its advantages!

    When I came out to my Mom recently, she said "I wouldn't have thought that." It was precisely what OW was talking about. It sounded awkward to me, but the moment was awkward. Like she's use to dealing with that kind of pronouncement, not! I get OW's point but I'm not sure what she's suppose to say:
    "About time you faced up to it!"
    "Glad you decided to stop kidding yourself!"
    "Well thanks for playing the straight game as long as you did, I got two grandkids out of ya - you weren't a total waste!"
    "Thank God your out, I couldn't stand that b^&ch of a wife. Dump her and get yourself a real MAN, preferably some who'll go fishing with your Dad while we gossip!! Oh goody, now I'll have someone to go to the theatre with me! OH OH, next weekend is my Pampered Chef party, tell me you can come."

    I think if you want to get something other than cliche from people when you 'out' to them, don't do it casually. Do it in private where if they say something like that, you can just use there comment as a stepping stone to have a real conversation about it. Find out if they suspected. Ask why they never approached you about it. Or complain that they never approached you about it - if your good friends.

  • art_smass

    Posts: 960

    Dec 02, 2007 5:45 AM GMT
    In astrology, Mercury is hermaphroditic. So that means trannies are from Mercury.
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    Dec 02, 2007 5:59 AM GMT
    Actually, Jupiter is Bisexual. The moons are named after his known tricks. (There are 63 of them!) Some are female, some are male.

    And of course, most of the "gay jewelry" I see advertised uses the Mars symbol. I think that a Marvin-style helmet would be kinda cool. Um... didn't Marvin wear a kilt? Leather?
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    Dec 02, 2007 6:36 AM GMT
    Gay men are from Earth. Because we can't afford to roam around in space like the rest of them. We gotta have both feet on the ground, gotta be careful, be perfect (fierce) in an attempt to guard ourselves from discrimination that is very much alive. Best thing about gay men is that on a basic level you get no pretense, first and foremost we are all men.
    This explains why most of the time you get a masculine overtone with a little something underneath that is different. Personally, I think that gay men who are mostly masculine are totally natural and increasing in number.
    Think of it as a sort of evolution because since early in our history fems, queens, and limp-wristers have been denigrated. As far as this term clockable, i've never heard of it. I don't like it because unless your gaydar is seriously broken these butch numbers will not get anything past you.
    Besides, anyone who takes the time to know them could see something is different. The rest are judging by face value alone. Lol, sounds about right of society. It's not just gays who go through this. Try being black. How many times do you think I hear people say "Gosh, you don't act black at all."? What exactly is "acting black" anyway? What, because I speak English well or because I have a job, i'm not black acting? Screw that shit...and this clockable nonsense. All they are doing is implying that GAY is a bad thing. It's not. Fucke em, what should we care what a buncha Martians and Venusians think anyway?
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11648

    Dec 02, 2007 9:50 AM GMT
    Men are from Mars women are from Venus and gay men are from a Galaxy all their own

    Uranus is way too obvious and it sounds like it should be accompanied by a Catskills rimshot (no pun intended)
    as far as our spectrum of behavior goes
    I'm afraid that there's still quite a bit of internalized homophobia in us
    don't get me wrong there's nothing wrong about liking the hypermasculine man.... I'd be the first one tossed into jail if it were
    but the shunning of the feminine male all the time worries me
    it's ok not to be attracted to any type of male
    but guys go out of their way to say I don't like to be around them ... and/or I don't like "the scene"
    that's the same half brained realm of thought that's got us gay republicans
    you're gay boys....and we've all had the dirty grass stains on our knees to prove it
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    Dec 02, 2007 9:54 AM GMT
    I put this thread on last night before watching the news and going to bed. Then, I wake up this morning and sign on to find out all the enlightening comments that will be made about gay male masculinity only to find out that it has turned into a discussion about what the hell planet we’re from. How funny!!!!!icon_lol.gificon_lol.gif Of course this is my fault. I got the idea for the lead from a book written by a womens libber a million years ago called Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. It was about how different men and women are and why. But hey, I have learned a lot about Pluto, Uranus and Saturn.

    Yes, lift or die, I will try to be less of a rambler in future. Also, ObsceneWish, I definitely, get your point.

    This whole discussion reminds me of a time when I was living in Mexico. This lady from west Texas (heavy southern drawl) was telling a group of friends how the planet earth was going to suffer a series of earthquakes and possibly turn on it’s axis in a few weeks when four planets lined up with the sun and the earth. She proceeded by telling us the planets (I don’t remember which) and the last one she said was Ur-aaaay-nus. Then, I said if something that big was going to line up with my anus it was going to be cataclysmic. Everyone unfortunately laughed at her expense.
  • HndsmKansan

    Posts: 16308

    Dec 02, 2007 12:51 PM GMT
    Well Alexander, what I've found (and I'm sure many have)... you use something like a planet as an aside from the general discussion (or general point) and the whole focus goes off in a way that really wasn't what was meant originally... but it really is kind of funny in then end.

    With the discussion of the planets (how can I not resist, being an Astronomy buff), Pluto could be considered, since it is "way out there", but we would have to take into account, Charon, its "other half".

    "Uranus", "Neptune" (the underworld?) or any of the giants turn me off, because they are gas giants.
    I think I like Ariel (moon of Uranus) since it was named for a fairie...LOL and maybe Titan (moon of Saturn) since it has an atmosphere and is alot more than it seems with the naked (yeah) eye.........

    Back to Alexander's original question (and the real focus).. It could be. I would assume that the more accepting and tolerant a "society" (such as the population of Spain) is, the more comfortable gay men would be in coming out of the closet and accepting who they are.... The idea of a bigoted culture producing "girlie" or effinent men seems kind of odd to me. It would be interesting to see a study. We will someday I'm sure.
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    Dec 02, 2007 1:05 PM GMT
    I like Pluto the dog (from Disney)icon_biggrin.gif...wait...he is from disney...right?

    Figured i'd add to the randomness of this thread. If u have the time...try scrolling up and read how this thread had prgressed...realy made me laughicon_lol.gif
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    Dec 02, 2007 4:48 PM GMT
    I pick Uranus, if not for the sake of pun, then consider it's the only planet that spin differently then all other planets out there.

    As for the topic, the purpose of acting anyway is just facade. to fool everyone as straight acting is a closet. To over emphasis the gayness is also a closet (though most would call it out, i consider it a roomy closet). I have no question that just about any cultures in any time period, that the easy way to monitor a gay men is to observe he's femininity. I will digress from talking about why it's so common, but it is none the less. But my point is that it's a tool for those who observe. For the one who "IS", any action add or subtract would be solely for building up a front, a facade to carry out his agenda.
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    Dec 02, 2007 5:02 PM GMT
    i'm down with Earth too! let heteros vacate to venus and mars ......and LET'S RULE THE EARTH!!! icon_twisted.gif
  • gymingit

    Posts: 156

    Dec 02, 2007 5:15 PM GMT
    I will have to go with OBEWAN(lol) with this one. My brother told me I act different when I get to know someone. I'm like "??OK??" But, he tends to think when I meet people for the first time I act more "butch" if you will and then once I get to know them, I "loosen up." Go Figure.