Real Jock, White Separatists, and Our Nation

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 04, 2009 3:21 PM GMT
    [The title was meant to grab your attention, calm down]
    Note: I'm tired of many of RJ's inane threads (despite my participation, yes). I think this is a great site, but I'm hoping to see this forum take on a more serious/engaging tone. Mazel tov people.

    ALSO, please don't turn this into an "us against them" scenario. I am not trying to enflame, but I'm SURE there will be posters who will attempt to contort my question into a racial bias/argument. Not all whites are racists. There, I said it. ZzzZzzZ predictability is out of fashion people, move on.



    This post comes in response to both relevant political undertakings and RealJock’s obsession with race-based issues.

    The Pew Center is reporting that among whites with an annual income of less than $65k, there has been a sharp decrease in their approval [rating] of President Obama. More substantially, Obama’s numbers have dropped by 16% points since January, yet increased by 5% among blacks and remained stagnant with Hispanics.

    What’s more, it seems as though the GOP is steadfast in opposing the election of so-called “minorities” to high positions in office. Examples include Sotomayor and Steven Chu—in short order. Regarding legislation, I challenge readers to find a Republican who supports—whether vehemently or casually—a system that would work to provide access to U.S. citizenship among “illegal” residents. The GOP is further segregating themselves from the landscape of the 21st century, which strays further from the Anglo-mainstream.

    Would it be safe to conclude that the Republican Party is now a white-separatist coalition?

    (Kidding.)

    Better said, do you feel that the Republican Party is now the home to a growing swath of Americans who fear the [inevitable] change of the American demographic?

    More-so, why the disproportionate disapproval rating for Obama among voting rural, southern, white Republicans (their base)?

    Statistics: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/03/for-the-modern-gop-its-a_n_250560.html
  • Timbales

    Posts: 13993

    Aug 04, 2009 4:05 PM GMT
    So if you're white and aren't thrilled with Obama's performance, you're a racist?
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    Aug 04, 2009 4:06 PM GMT
    Timberoo saidSo if you're white and aren't thrilled with Obama's performance, you're a racist?


    You either (1) didn't read or (2) can't.

    I'm asking why the disproportionate disapproval rating?

    Sorry, I have a short fuse for ignorance (eeek)

  • Timbales

    Posts: 13993

    Aug 04, 2009 4:16 PM GMT
    ucla_matta said
    Timberoo saidSo if you're white and aren't thrilled with Obama's performance, you're a racist?


    You either (1) didn't read or (2) can't.

    I'm asking why the disproportionate disapproval rating?

    Sorry, I have a short fuse for ignorance (eeek)



    I did read and can. Your reference to The Pew Center report cites the approval rating among races.

    It does not, however, cite the approval ratings among among individuals citing both race, political party affiliation and geographic location - unless you chose not include that?.

    What does the study have to do with the GOP and the alleged blocking minorities on the basis of race?

    Perhaps I'd be able to reply to your question if everything above it was clear and relevant.


  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 04, 2009 4:23 PM GMT
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/03/for-the-modern-gop-its-a_n_250560.html

    All the required statistics and in-depth study included in the above.

    Now ...

    Feel free to reply, rather than make blanket statements which in no way pertain to my original post.

    :-) yay
  • Timbales

    Posts: 13993

    Aug 04, 2009 4:29 PM GMT
    I didn't make a statement, I asked a question.

    I read the reference article and don't feel it's findings are based in stable facts.
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    Aug 04, 2009 5:50 PM GMT
    Fantastic, thanks.
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    Aug 04, 2009 6:22 PM GMT
    ucla_matta said...

    Would it be safe to conclude that the Republican Party is now a white-separatist coalition?

    (Kidding.)

    Better said, do you feel that the Republican Party is now the home to a growing swath of Americans who fear the [inevitable] change of the American demographic?

    More-so, why the disproportionate disapproval rating for Obama among voting rural, southern, white Republicans (their base)?

    Statistics: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/03/for-the-modern-gop-its-a_n_250560.html

    ^Loaded questions.

    Is this a homework assignment?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 04, 2009 7:03 PM GMT
    Seems you're a bit too hung up on the race stuff, maybe.

    Obama's points are dropping, because many Americans are feeling they aren't getting what they voted for, and don't like the direction he's taking the country. His race has nothing to do with his points dropping.

    I know a lot of blacks, and Hispanics who never voted for him, didn't like what they were hearing from him, and still even more so do not like him. Race wasn't the issues, it was his policies, and philosophies that turned them off. Sure they think its beautiful, he is where he is, but they got past that, and again don't like the policies, and philosophies.

    Yes there are a lot of people out there who voted for him, because of his race, and didn't vote for him because of his race, and yes he is still quite popular among minority groups, as many of them feel it is a huge accomplishment, him being in the position he is, which is it, and a beautiful thing, but unfortunately most of these people, white black whatever, are too hung up on the race crap, and so will pretty much always support him, mostly because of that.

    As far as considering the GOP, as a racist party, that's a bit much (and yes I know you were kidding). There are/is racist/racism on both sides, its just presented differently though. A lot of people forget the Republican party actually started the NAACP, it was a few hardcore conservatives that ruined crap as far as race and stuff go, but conservatism, is not the same as Republican, just like Liberal, and Democrat are different, as there are/were hardcore Liberals, who messed stuff up within the Democratic party. Does this mean the entire two parties are racist, or whatever? Nope, gotta weed out the baddies, to see the good, some people unfortunately cannot do that.
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    Aug 04, 2009 7:28 PM GMT
    Rad_d81 saidSeems you're a bit too hung up on the race stuff, maybe.


    I am in-light of the last big forum topic--"Blacks the least desirable..." etc...

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 04, 2009 7:44 PM GMT
    With regard to the "GOP"

    They are just opposing "the chosen by the democrats" not some ones race or the inevitable...
    Just as much as the demcorats fight republican leaders and choices when the roles are reversed.
    Race is not a factor.


    Some would say, republicans too often make an ass of themselves, some would say democrats spend too much time kissing it.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 04, 2009 7:50 PM GMT
    Hey Metta,

    You know regarding President Obama's numbers dipping a bit eh it is what it is. I firmly believe that a vast majority of people were and are expecting that President Obama has supernatural powers and poof all the ills would be cured. Eh! Dream on.

    You know a lot people forgot that our president did say that our economy would get a lot worse before it gets better and there are smalls signs that economy is improving just look at the stock market and the sale of new homes were up not by much but they were up.

    That 16% drop in the approval rating well that is to be expected but the number also illustrate that there are a vast number of Americans who still approve of how President Obama is running the country.

    The thing that gets my goat is that we as Americans we leap on the anything that neg. That becomes the badge of courage. That is very short sight of us to do that.

    Regarding that study done in San Francisco. COME ON! Any one who would give that study any serious thought is beyond STUPID. They only had a 1,000 men that were a part of the study and that is the measuring stick for the entire non- GAY African American culture? icon_rolleyes.gif

    After I saw the number of men who were a part of the study, I did not even click on the article why? I could find a thousand men here in Atlanta who would find me more than attractive.icon_wink.gif

    If even someone does not like me because of my skin color BIG DEAL!
    I don't care that is giving someone that I don't know WAYYYYYY too much power and I never do that.

    We have no COME A LONG WAY BABY!icon_mad.gif

    Peace

    Kristoffer
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19138

    Aug 04, 2009 7:52 PM GMT
    [quote][cite]ucla_matta said[/cite]
    Timberoo saidSo if you're white and aren't thrilled with Obama's performance, you're a racist?


    You either (1) didn't read or (2) can't.

    I'm asking why the disproportionate disapproval rating?

    Sorry, I have a short fuse for ignorance (eeek)

    [/quote

    If you want ignorance, maybe you should just have a gander in the mirror :-)

    Obama's disapproval rating is largely because those people disapprove of the job he is doing, not that he is black. As for minorities in the Republican party, one only need look at the Bush administrations ethnic diversity (latinos, African Americans, Asians, etc.) to see that your suggestion simply doesn't hold water. Nice try though.
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    Aug 04, 2009 7:54 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said[quote][cite]ucla_matta said[/cite]
    Timberoo saidSo if you're white and aren't thrilled with Obama's performance, you're a racist?


    You either (1) didn't read or (2) can't.

    I'm asking why the disproportionate disapproval rating?

    Sorry, I have a short fuse for ignorance (eeek)

    [/quote

    If you want ignorance, maybe you should just have a gander in the mirror :-)

    Obama's disapproval rating is largely because those people disapprove of the job he is doing, not that he is black. As for minorities in the Republican party, one only need look at the Bush administrations ethnic diversity (latinos, African Americans, Asians, etc.) to see that your suggestion simply doesn't hold water. Nice try though.


    As always, you come through with a vapid statement that misses the point entirely :-)

    Ahhhh, and I'm the young one? icon_rolleyes.gif
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19138

    Aug 04, 2009 7:58 PM GMT
    ucla_matta said
    Better said, do you feel that the Republican Party is now the home to a growing swath of Americans who fear the [inevitable] change of the American demographic?

    More-so, why the disproportionate disapproval rating for Obama among voting rural, southern, white Republicans (their base)?





    Okay, I guess your point was the above. So, in a word...

    NO

    This disproportionate approval rating -- if you really want to put so much weight in such ridiculous polls -- is because they're not happy with his policies. I'm sure there are some who have a problem with his race, but there are just as many on the other side who voted for him BECAUSE of his race, so it's probably a wash. I think America has come a great deal farther in race relations than you may be giving it credit for.
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    Aug 04, 2009 8:10 PM GMT
    ucla_matta said

    More-so, why the disproportionate disapproval rating for Obama among voting rural, southern, white Republicans (their base)?

    Statistics: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/03/for-the-modern-gop-its-a_n_250560.html


    Did you just ask why republicans are dissproportionatly aggainst the current democratic president.....
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    Aug 04, 2009 8:20 PM GMT
    UCLA Matta says, "I am not trying to enflame, but I'm SURE there will be posters who will attempt to contort my question into a racial bias/argument. Not all whites are racists. There, I said it. ZzzZzzZ predictability is out of fashion people, move on."

    Actually, the whole tone of your post is inflammatory. Would it were that predictability had gone out of fashion. Alas, it has not.

    That said, perhaps there will be future generations of people who are race blind. Certainly that group does not include anyone born in our nation in the 20th century. The climate of racial politics has been pervasive for so long one would have had to grow up in a hyperbaric chamber wearing headphones to have escaped it.

    Honest people admit that they lapse into racial views of issues from time to time. We are not defined by what we think, and especially not by the thoughts that we experience, but don't really invite. We are defined by our actions.

    People who act upon the background radiation of pervasive racism are rather a different proposition than those who do not. The same, by the way, can be said for all group distinctions including those that led to the passage of proposition 8 in California. The initiative passed because many people, in the privacy of the voting booth, acted on feelings they wouldn't necessarily confess in polite company.

    I am one of those white people whose approval of President Obama has plummeted. While I was always a supporter of Hillary I was thrilled at the President's election. My expectation was that he would govern from the center. What I did not expect was that he would so readily ignore our constituency in his rush to be judged as centrist.

    The penny dropped for me when the attempt to oust the Rev. Eric Lee, head of the So. Cal. chapter of the SCLC, came to light. Here was a man who stood for the principles of men like Bayard Rustin and Martin Luther King, put on the spit to roast because he acted consistently with those principles.

    It seems to me that our President can't really do anything for us, even if he wanted to, without seriously upending his core constituency (riling the opposition even further in the process).

    To me anyway, it appears that governance from the center (Clinton style as defined by Karl Rove Emanuel) implies the abrogation of responsibility to those in need of civil protection.

    If men of good conscience don't extend civil liberties then I cannot support them, I don't support them, and I never will. If President Johnson could extend civil liberty then, by G-d, President Obama can too.

    Yes, there is an element of race in my opinion. It just so happens that race really does play a part in the disappearance of the President's LGBT agenda. Inasmuch as that is the cause of his apparent cowardice, then race is part of the reason the President lost me as a supporter.

    Of course, I am in a small minority (and hence the difficulty). I suspect that the President's loss of popularity amongst white voters in the Pew study has rather more to do with two factors:

    1.) People have been terrorized over the bogeyman of single-payer health care and the President is unable to discipline his party to pass relevant legislation in a timely fashion.

    2.) The President's popularity has fallen in the white demographic hardest hit by the "Great Recession".

    The President remains extremely popular. Surely it isn't racism for a Presidents approval ratings to fall off in the first year. It is just normal.
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    Aug 04, 2009 8:37 PM GMT
    It is not that we miss your point; it is perhaps that we dislike your race as you demonstrate it.
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    Aug 04, 2009 8:53 PM GMT
    Ya, I am with URSA on much of this. I worked for Obama to get elected at phonebanks and canvasses and donated money I couldn't really afford to give. When he was elected (or rather, when McCain's campaign fell into the same black hole of campaign incompetence Hillary's did) I was the happiest little boy in all the land.

    Shortly after we had too much compromise on the Stimulus, almost nothing done on human rights, cabinet members I disliked, and now health care reform is veering into ClintonCare territory. I think he is pretty meh now.
  • coolarmydude

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    Aug 04, 2009 9:34 PM GMT
    My short answer is that when it comes to Southerners, and the histories of the South, eveything does come down to us vs. them viewpoints. I'm from south Louisiana. Race isn't elevated to being an issue to contend with. Rather, it's still a stereotype that older generations still engender. The demographics are changing and older white folks know it. That's why they think it's the end of the world. At least it's the end of the white-privilege, good-ole-boy-club world.


    A few years ago, I was assigned to Ohio University and while there, I met a girl from Baton Rouge. She started hanging out with my cadets, but it didn't last long because she always started conversations about race. One of her rants was about welfare and she repeatedly implied that welfare recipients were black and made everything sound like an us versus them argument. I cut her off and told her that welfare isn't a race issue. She couldn't utter a word as she was confused at this newsflash.
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    Aug 04, 2009 9:56 PM GMT
    I try to steer clear of race threads because as a white male a thoughtful argument is so easily construed as racist, but here goes:

    Some whites are racist. Some blacks are racist. Most people really aren't racist.

    The topics that irk me most on here are those black men who constantly ask why white guys don't respond or want to get with them. This usually leads to the same tired responses of "Well don't blame ME, I don't see race, I find all races equally attractive" and/or "You don't want those guys anyway, they are just ignorant and stupid." However, nine times out of ten the black man who started the post either hints or blatantly admits that he himself is interested primarily or exclusively in white guys. To me there are two problems here, 1. the blatant hypocrisy and racism of the poster, and 2. the seeming acceptability of his racism as a minority and the perception that any white guy who has similar preferences is by default a racist.

    This double standard is a cornerstone of race relations in America. Whites have to tiptoe around the race minefield all the time where any comment, even an innocent one simply acknowledging races as different, has the potential to brand you as a racist. At the same time, it is seen as fine or even honorable if a black person flaunts their race and restricts their partners to only other blacks. On the same token, blacks who only want to get with whites are rarely scorned as at least they are being interracial, same with whites who only want blacks. It is only racism when your preferences are exclusively your own race, not when your preferences are exclusively other races.

    Race equality doesn't mean we don't see color anymore, it means we treat everyone with the same level of respect and grant them the same rights as humans. In my opinion, most racial issues and attempts to stop racism in fact only deepen the perception of color in this country. I know I am not a racist, I have the same respect for everyone as a person, but as a white male I must think about race CONSTANTLY to avoid anything that may brand me as a racist (pretty much a capital social crime). I'm told that if I don't date enough people of other races I am "seeing color" too much and am walking the racist line. However, this makes me see color even MORE, as now I have to worry about seeming racist by just dating who I find attractive.

    The best way to fix real racism is to stop harping on every little race relations hiccup. It diminishes talk about real racism. Here's a newsflash: RACES ARE DIFFERENT! They look different, often have different backgrounds and cultures, and even have genetic and physiological differences. That doesn't make them less or more human, but trying to ignore these differences is a pipe dream and damaging to race relations.

    This all applies to Obama. Seriously, not every white person who disagrees with Obama does so because he is (part) black. I personally hate his policies, but that has nothing to do with his race. Using race is too easy of a tactic to dismiss the often valid concerns/arguments of whites and Republicans. Just because Obama is black doesn't make him right, and it doesn't make him immune from criticism from whites and Republicans. The reason that "rural, southern, white Republicans" are displeased with Obama is that last word there. They have ideological differences. The reason his polls are dropping so fast is that people from BOTH PARTIES see the major clusterfuck that is this healthcare bill. His popularity is dropping among gays because of his lack of attention to DOMA and DADT. None of this has anything to do with his race. Although I'm sure there is a racist component to a few of his dissenters, they are not in the majority. To call attention to his rising unpopularity as a race issue not only diminishes race relations, it hurts freedom of speech and thought in this country and drives attention to petty race bickering instead of leaving it on the issues and policies where it should be.
  • coolarmydude

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    Aug 04, 2009 10:04 PM GMT
    People shouldn't offer opinions on Southern attitudes unless they've actually spent time beyond a vacation or business trip there or lived there. Honestly. Yes, many Republicans oppose Obama's policies because it pits conservatism against liberalism, but what about this nagging and growing birther movement? How many racist pictures, jokes or comments are passing around casually? I can tell you it's not because of the healthcare debate. And racial attitudes don't have to mutter a word to verify racism. That's why I state that people from the South really know how to detect racist demeanor.
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    Aug 04, 2009 10:05 PM GMT
    Obama's drop in approval has nothing to do with race. Those whites under $65k per year are worried about the increasing taxes that will likely be needed to sustain the reckless programs of Obama and Congress. The 5% increase in black support is barely more than statistically irrelevant for most surveys.

    I'm confused about your statement regarding "elections" of minorities to office. Judge Sonia Sotomayor and Steven Chu are appointments, not elections and what's more (as another poster pointed out) the number of minorities in President Bush's cabinet (first black male as Secretary of State, first black female as Secretary of State and first Hispanic Attorney General) utterly destroys your argument. Not to mention, Ronald Reagan named the first female to the Supreme Court (Justice Sandra Day O'Connor) and the first President Bush named who was only the second black man to sit on the Court (Justice Clarence Thomas).

    As far as Republicans who support a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants, you need not look farther than Senator John McCain who jeopardized his 2008 run by backing legislation that would have done just that.
  • coolarmydude

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    Aug 04, 2009 10:07 PM GMT
    ^ I agree with your statements. The drop in support is definitely not coming from racists, nor necessarily from conservatives. I think it's coming from independents.
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    Aug 04, 2009 10:22 PM GMT
    Even if some of you believe a lot of Obama's opposition comes from racism, and having never lived in the south I can't tell you exactly how much is race and how much is ideology, to explain his current drop in approval with race would mean that in the months since his election this country has gotten SUBSTANTIALLY more racist, like 10-15% moreso. That I do not believe, and I don't think that the racists are more vocal now than they were before.