And what if there is no hell?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 08, 2009 10:50 PM GMT
    And what if there is no hell?
  • Mepark

    Posts: 806

    Aug 08, 2009 11:07 PM GMT
    Praise the lord.
  • DCEric

    Posts: 3713

    Aug 09, 2009 3:34 AM GMT
    Then all of my work will be for naught. I was so hoping to get in.
  • Timbales

    Posts: 13993

    Aug 09, 2009 3:38 AM GMT
    what if there is?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 09, 2009 4:04 AM GMT
    I highly doubt there is a hell.

    at least not a christian version of hell.




    but then again, I might be playing backgammon with Ghandi and Buddha before my daily beating, so I don't know.
  • FlashDrive

    Posts: 53

    Aug 09, 2009 4:07 AM GMT
    what the hell is no hell?icon_eek.gif
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    Aug 09, 2009 4:15 AM GMT
    just posted this elsewhere and though it fit in this thread too:

    i've been re-reading a copy of Dante's Divine Comedy in a local cafe this week, and i'm almost through Purgatorio.... yeah, Catholicism is just kind of inadequate for my purposes.

    Theologically, they've set up this god, who has made man with instincts and with natural tendencies for seeking indulgence, pleasure, and the chasing our own individual ways despite the opinions of others- then he tells man that everything but the ascetic denial of all earthly pleasures, and the perpetual glorification of Him, is essentially a sin punishable by (at worst) the eternal tortures of the pit, and (at best) by unknown centuries spent being 'purged' by pain and suffering in purgatory, before being admitted into a childishly conceived resort- to further sing his praises, of course, and to no other apparent end. he sets us up in this infinitely small blip of a lifetime on this ant farm of a planet, to be voyeuristically watched while we crawl about in the mire of our own filthy human lives- consuming life and expelling fecal matter at a feverish and constant rate, suffering the agony of disease and the graceless shame of rot through aging, all the while burning with the race to 'get ahead' on this pointless treadmill he's set us on, chasing the various empty lures and meaningless distractions he's hung just in front of us, punctuated with the euphoria of sex when we can get it- god's greatest joke of all- and of course something to be highly distrusted within the canon, being highly treacherous for the soul. in addition to this ordered madness, he throws in an 'adversary' to plague, torment, and further tempt us to 'err.' despite all of this impersonality and cruelty and self-service, we're to hold this deity as all-good and perfectly loving. lol

    this whole thing's set up, according to the church, as little more than a purposeless play put on for His amusement, at our expense. those who would seek more from existence than to deny it all and join in the eternal choir of god's glorification, are damned, and everything pleasurable is a trap, set so that we may be tempted, fall, suffer, and come crawling back to Him for His boundless mercy. i find extreme fault with the whole Theology; a Paternal Voyeur "Santa God" with his naughty/nice list, a childishly conceived eternal punishment or reward for our insignificant lives on this remote planet, guilt and shame put upon us for indulging in what this world can offer, and the ultimately dissatisfying REASON given for the whole mess of a world-view.


    i prefer to conceive of deity as being much loftier than all of that- above and beyond human cares, worries, laws, ambitions, shames and insecurities; above the capacity to be angry, wrathful, incensed, insulted, or even bothered by something like sodomy- outside of our petty daily caprices and desires and prayers for their fulfillment, and certainly above any desire to be lauded, applauded, groveled at, or sacrificed to.
    this planet, in my book, is heaven and hell in fullest extent, and our lives are each mysteriously the story of a wandering god, exploring itself within itself, meeting only itself in its brightest beauty and darkest hideousness, both of which are contained within itself as Everything. it is a comedy and a tragedy, life, and neither- because ultimately its an illusion, and realizing THAT is the goal- that we've created it all for our own amusement, as god, and that we're not really who and what we thought we were; that nothing can really phase or harm us because we are not this body or this perspective roaming time and space as Experience..... we're the sum total of everything incarnated in a Perspective for amusement and insight.
    this may not jive with all of you, but it gives me strength, peace, enjoyment of life, and a goal that makes sense- awakening to a perfect identification and union with God- that's MY paradise, and it has no golden gates to bribe my way through with flatteries. that's the most anyone can hope to gain from their own unique spirituality- that it makes rational sense, strikes a true chord, and gives us the strength to live with dignity.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 09, 2009 4:22 AM GMT
    I was a victim of forced Catholicism. Although I have not practiced for 21 years, the fear of hell still lingers.

  • Delivis

    Posts: 2332

    Aug 09, 2009 4:42 AM GMT
    Relax, there isnt any Hell.
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    Aug 09, 2009 4:47 AM GMT
    Shouldn't that be 666 emails?icon_wink.gif
  • Anto

    Posts: 2035

    Aug 09, 2009 4:53 AM GMT
    I don't see how someone can be rational and believe in whatever spiritual terms or standards they justify for themselves or use as a coping mechanism in life.

    For example, Czarodziej, how can you say what you can't believe God or whatever to be for the reason you stated and then believe in other things because of how it makes you feel? Your rationalizing of the first part just as equally applies to how you feel it is for you. It's the same problem, either way, and given why the first part is wrong, then so should the second part be wrong as well. The only difference is how it makes you feel, but what real reason is that? It isn't, it's just another perspective on life, one you happen to like, but it's just as 'illogical'. See what I mean?

    For me, spirituality that brings happiness and peace should be just as suspect as spirituality which does not, actually even more so in my opinion because in a way it's catering to what we want as opposed to being just something that is, regardless of how we might feel about it, good or bad.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 09, 2009 4:54 AM GMT
    Dante's Divine Comedy helped to establish our current take on Hell. i.e. eternal fire, etc.

    Actually, according to the original Greek interpretation, Hell is separation from God. Essentially, Hell is a nothingness.

    Therefore, when you die, there is nothing. No connection to the Divine. However, if you don't believe in God then you are already there.
  • Anto

    Posts: 2035

    Aug 09, 2009 4:57 AM GMT
    I thought Hell in Dante was being frozen and suffering cold for all eternity?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 09, 2009 5:18 AM GMT
    Hell is reading the last two books of the Divine Comedy.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 09, 2009 5:18 AM GMT
    then heaven is going to be really crowded
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 09, 2009 6:20 AM GMT
    SD_92101> If you believe God exists then by default you believe that Satan exists therefore hell.

    Don't see the connection. Why can't a God exist absent Satan or Hell?

    The concept of Satan as independent of God (rather than his agent) was introduced into monotheism relatively late (post Babylonian exile, perhaps a Zoroastrian influence) and Hell as a place of torment develops even later (in the Christian era).


    Czarodziej> they've set up this god, who has made man with instincts and with natural tendencies for seeking indulgence, pleasure, and the chasing our own individual ways despite the opinions of others- then he tells man that everything but the ascetic denial of all earthly pleasures, and the perpetual glorification of Him, is essentially a sin punishable by (at worst) the eternal tortures of the pit, and (at best) by unknown centuries spent being 'purged' by pain and suffering in purgatory, before being admitted into a childishly conceived resort- to further sing his praises, of course, and to no other apparent end. he sets us up in this infinitely small blip of a lifetime on this ant farm of a planet, to be voyeuristically watched while we crawl about in the mire of our own filthy human lives- consuming life and expelling fecal matter at a feverish and constant rate, suffering the agony of disease and the graceless shame of rot through aging, all the while burning with the race to 'get ahead' on this pointless treadmill he's set us on, chasing the various empty lures and meaningless distractions he's hung just in front of us, punctuated with the euphoria of sex when we can get it- god's greatest joke of all- and of course something to be highly distrusted within the canon, being highly treacherous for the soul. in addition to this ordered madness, he throws in an 'adversary' to plague, torment, and further tempt us to 'err.' despite all of this impersonality and cruelty and self-service, we're to hold this deity as all-good and perfectly loving.

    Brilliant summary. I'd just substitute "rat maze" for "treadmill". (:
  • SirEllingtonB...

    Posts: 497

    Aug 09, 2009 6:29 AM GMT
    but... I already made the down payment on my apartment icon_confused.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 09, 2009 8:28 AM GMT
    People are entitled to believe whatever they want.


    For me, I don't think there is a hell, it sounds too much like an invention of mans imagination.
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    Aug 09, 2009 8:32 AM GMT
    MunchingZombie saidHell is reading the last two books of the Divine Comedy.


    He really named it wrong huh.

    Inferno:

    432px-Philipp_Veit_004.jpg
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 09, 2009 8:50 AM GMT
    SD_92101 saidIf you believe God exists then by default you believe that Satan exists therefore hell.


    Not really. It depends on what particular version of god you believe in.
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    Aug 09, 2009 9:28 AM GMT
    SD_92101 said

    God believes in the existence of Lucifer. Lucifer was the first angel (ranked first above all angels) who grew jealous of humans who had the love of God when Lucifer regarded humans as inferior to him. When Lucifer rose up against God, the Archangel Michael lead the loyal angels against Lucifer and his followers in a war in Heaven. When it was over Lucifer and his followers were cast out of Heaven and removed from the Word of God. And that is why Lucifer is indeed separate of God and not an agent of God.

    The torment of Hell is not some horrific experience but rather the torture of being removed from the Father's Word and Kingdom and therefore not being able to rest.

    I don't understand how you can't see the connection unless you are an atheist.

    As Christian, this what most Christians believe.


    Er, if you believe that then you're a victim of Christian media. It doesn't need a religious scholar to know that Lucifer was a later invention, so were the pits of fire. Specifically 12th century popular literature.

    Because actually he doesn't. The name 'Lucifer' is a transcription of the original Hebrew phrase "son of the dawn/morning star" by Latin scribes. He was never named, ever. Except perhaps descriptive titles, like Satan/Shaitan, which simply means 'The Enemy', Baal-ze-bub - 'Lord of flies', 'Red Dragon, 'Belial' - 'Worthless', Iblis - 'He who causes despair', 'Devil' - from Greek Diabolos, 'He who throws slanderous accusations' etc. This was from earlier mythology (Babylonian ones) which actually regard stars as beings, not the flaming suns we know them now as. (in fact several 'lesser' demon names were borrowed from other mythologies, like Ashmedai/Asmodeus or Abaddon/Apollyon).

    Most of the mythology surrounding the war of the angels in heaven is NOT from the Bible. They are from works of fiction made after the Bible. the most prominent of which is John Milton's Paradise Lost and Dante's Divina Commedia. This also applies to the image of hell as a burning place of eternal torment, this was partly because the writers of the new testament were influenced by the Greek version of hell. It is also NOT the original depiction of Sheol nor of Afterlife which more closely resembles the modern Catholic version of Purgatory (the image of which incidentally is also derived from Dante's Divina Commedia) than anything else, not the lakes of fire and brimstone, demons with whips, souls screaming in pain for eternity that preachers seem to be fondest of now.

    In fact, demons and satan were not originally hurled down to hell at all. The traditional version was they were simply thrown down to Earth. Nor were souls supposed to go to heaven or hell immediately after death. Nor were there probably really souls at all. Resurrection is just that - resurrection, the second life as immortal flesh and blood, not souls with angel wings gallivanting among clouds. Nor were they supposed to heaven at all, the 'immortal life' was all to happen ON EARTH after the second coming and the resurrection of the dead. It's all lore. Superstition accumulated from years of parachristian literature.

    As for the question of Satan being separate from God itself... that's another matter. Funny how an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God is always depicted with weaknesses. Yet it never seems to make Christians realize how paradoxical that was that Satan rebelled (for reasons in which God himself seems to be guilty of), or that he even had to put it down through a heavenly war, nor that God didn't seem to have foreseen this, nor that he did nothing to stop him from 'corrupting' his newest creations "made of clay". It makes it seem awfully like he doesn't give a shit.

    Christianity/Islam/Judaism don't realize it but they're not monotheistic. Satan is also a god to them. Albeit a minor, evil one. But still treated as a god. Not to mention, Mary, the saints, the prophets, etc... ho-hum.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 09, 2009 11:40 AM GMT
    I can categorically assure you there is a hell, and it's on this earth, and we have to die to be truly free of it. There have been times in my life I have been in hell.

    My advice to anyone going though hell is: don't stop.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 09, 2009 11:45 AM GMT
    OH SHIT THERES NO HELL?????????????

    *puts pants back on*













    *whistles casually*
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Aug 09, 2009 11:59 AM GMT
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  • Abe13

    Posts: 155

    Aug 09, 2009 12:17 PM GMT
    I don't know about Hell, but from the way I see the Christian religion has some flaws in logic(haha I know there are several icon_eek.gif )
    For instance, there are branches of Christianity that now state that there is no Satan-or ultimate evil-yet still believe in Heaven and Hell. Now explain that to me. Satan is supposedly the ruler of Hell and all that is evil, so without Him, how can there be a Hell or evil at all?
    Almost every major spiritual path that I have researched, or simply read a little bit about, point to a dualistic point of view. For light to exist, there has to be darkness. For good to be understood there must be evil to prove that it exists. So for someone to believe in Heaven and God, there must be Hell and Satan. imho
    I personally believe that there is a dark realm-hell, hades, underworld, etc. Just as I believe there is Heaven, upper realm, summerland, etc. But I think it is where the people who follow those paths go as a completion to this incarnation. Christians go to their idea of heaven, Satanists go to there Idea of "heaven" which would be classified by christians to be hell. Certain branches of paganism believe in a Summerland of rest between incarnations. I think it is all perspective.
    And since we are all of the living, what happens after death is one of the greatest mysteries of our current existanceicon_wink.gif