A quote you should help spread

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    Aug 11, 2009 8:34 PM GMT
    "Heterosexuality isn't normal, it is normalized." Eric Fassin


    This new wave that started with Boswell of digging into the past to justify the literal invention of a straight culture gets my blood flowing.


    The idea of a constant straight culture existing since the dawn of the first man and woman is the greatest lie ever told.
  • danisnotstr8

    Posts: 2579

    Aug 12, 2009 1:00 AM GMT
    Pinny said"Heterosexuality isn't normal, it is normalized." Eric Fassin

    This new wave that started with Boswell of digging into the past to justify the literal invention of a straight culture gets my blood flowing.


    How big does it get? icon_eek.gif


    icon_lol.gif
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    Aug 12, 2009 1:03 AM GMT
    who am I going to say this too?

    My friends love and accept me for all I am.
    My family love and accept me for all I am.

    Everyone else isn't important enough for me to fight with about my sexuality, if they don't like it, I don't care, if the don't, I don't care (unless he's hot, then I do)
  • danisnotstr8

    Posts: 2579

    Aug 12, 2009 1:07 AM GMT
    lilTanker saidwho am I going to say this too?

    My friends love and accept me for all I am.
    My family love and accept me for all I am.

    Everyone else isn't important enough for me to fight with about my sexuality, if they don't like it, I don't care, if the don't, I don't care (unless he's hot, then I do)


    Oh, come on lilTanker. Go fight the fight. You don't have to go around saying it to everyone, but you don't have to be all contrary just because you're not an advocate for your own freakin' rights. Someday, you'll see the value in maintaining a lexicon that includes "fighting words" like these. It's a great quote, and you just pooped on it. I don't get it. Bad hair day?
  • styrgan

    Posts: 2017

    Aug 12, 2009 1:14 AM GMT
    danisnotstr8 said
    lilTanker saidwho am I going to say this too?

    My friends love and accept me for all I am.
    My family love and accept me for all I am.

    Everyone else isn't important enough for me to fight with about my sexuality, if they don't like it, I don't care, if the don't, I don't care (unless he's hot, then I do)


    Oh, come on lilTanker. Go fight the fight. You don't have to go around saying it to everyone, but you don't have to be all contrary just because you're not an advocate for your own freakin' rights. Someday, you'll see the value in maintaining a lexicon that includes "fighting words" like these. It's a great quote, and you just pooped on it. I don't get it. Bad hair day?


    Everyone has the right to get as involved in the fight to the extent they feel comfortable. Many of us are post-gay, and putting large amounts of energy into the defense of our lifestyle conflicts with that. I just don't think that those who are sitting back (and not talking about tanker here really) should trash those who are taking the front lines in defending themselves.

    I thought it was a very nice quote, personally...

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    Aug 12, 2009 1:14 AM GMT
    no.. although yes, every day has turned into a bad hair day now that I'm "growing my hair out" icon_sad.gif

    I have fighting words, I've argued about my rights, but I've come to realise they aren't worth the effort, those same people go home still with the same thoughts, still with the same ideas, still with the same hate.

    I have changed more minds by just being me, then by fighting someone, I have had more people come up to me after they have found out I'm gay and told me that I "apparently" opened there eyes to the idea that "gay" isn't bad.

    These people who have minds that are willing to change will change not in an intense argument where they feel attacked and vulnerable, they will close off, clamp up and be less willing to see reason.

    A person who is calm and unbeaten is more likely to think for them self.

    Conversely those who are entirely closed off to the idea of change will remain that way, no matter how good my argument, no matter how fool proof.
  • danisnotstr8

    Posts: 2579

    Aug 12, 2009 1:21 AM GMT
    lilTanker saidno.. although yes, every day has turned into a bad hair day now that I'm "growing my hair out" icon_sad.gif

    I have fighting words, I've argued about my rights, but I've come to realise they aren't worth the effort, those same people go home still with the same thoughts, still with the same ideas, still with the same hate.

    I have changed more minds by just being me, then by fighting someone, I have had more people come up to me after they have found out I'm gay and told me that I "apparently" opened there eyes to the idea that "gay" isn't bad.

    These people who have minds that are willing to change will change not in an intense argument where they feel attacked and vulnerable, they will close off, clamp up and be less willing to see reason.

    A person who is calm and unbeaten is more likely to think for them self.

    Conversely those who are entirely closed off to the idea of change will remain that way, no matter how good my argument, no matter how fool proof.




    Suppose it's just gonna rain anyway. icon_sad.gif

    eeyore.jpeg


    There is always an exception, my friend. Be persistent. Don't give up. Different words for different turds. Save'em up and keep'em in your hat full of magic.
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    Aug 12, 2009 1:24 AM GMT
    why is it giving up? what am I giving up? how is what I say some how sad that it requires a picture of Eeyore?
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    Aug 12, 2009 1:29 AM GMT
    styrgan saidI thought it was a very nice quote, personally...

    It's a nice quote but I don't believe it to be entirely accurate nor will it be a very effective argument to use in a situation where you are having to argue your rights as an individual, a homosexual or as a community.
  • danisnotstr8

    Posts: 2579

    Aug 12, 2009 1:32 AM GMT
    lilTanker saidno.. although yes, every day has turned into a bad hair day now that I'm "growing my hair out" icon_sad.gif

    I have fighting words, I've argued about my rights, but I've come to realise they aren't worth the effort, those same people go home still with the same thoughts, still with the same ideas, still with the same hate.

    [...]

    Conversely those who are entirely closed off to the idea of change will remain that way, no matter how good my argument, no matter how fool proof.


    I'm really not criticizing you. But this stuff above sounds pretty defeated. What you say is not the same experience I've had. I've even seen it happen on this website.

    Pinny was just throwing the quote out there. I had pictured the thread going in another direction-- like, perhaps we should be posting some pertinent quotes.

    Like:

    "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."
    Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)
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    Aug 12, 2009 1:39 AM GMT
    danisnotstr8 saidI'm really not criticizing you. But this stuff above sounds pretty defeated. What you say is not the same experience I've had. I've even seen it happen on this website.

    Pinny was just throwing the quote out there. I had pictured the thread going in another direction-- like, perhaps we should be posting some pertinent quotes.

    Why would you think I was defeated? I don't care if your criticising me, I'm a big boy and can handle that, I want to know why.

    Your experience is your own? I can not experience what you experience, I can only experience what I experience and since we are two different people, with our own lives, our own views, our own ideas, why would my experience be the same as yours?

    Pinny titled the thread "A quote you should help spread" why? I don't think it'll be a useful quote beyond a mere few moments of contemplation on it.
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    Aug 12, 2009 1:39 AM GMT
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.

    Margaret Mead
  • danisnotstr8

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    Aug 12, 2009 1:42 AM GMT
    jackofhearts46 saidNever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.

    Margaret Mead


    I guess that's what I'm getting at, lilTanker.

    Nice quote, jackofhearts46.
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    Aug 12, 2009 1:44 AM GMT
    That quote is antagonistic, try this one instead.

    "Heterosexuality is as normal as bisexuality which is as normal as homosexuality." Ryan O.

    Since sexuality lies on a continuum between the two endpoints, the lie is that everyone is either at one end point or the other.
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    Aug 12, 2009 1:45 AM GMT

    It will all be ok in the end. If it's not ok, it's not the end.
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    Aug 12, 2009 1:46 AM GMT
    danisnotstr8 said
    jackofhearts46 saidNever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.

    Margaret Mead


    I guess that's what I'm getting at, lilTanker.

    Nice quote, jackofhearts46.

    Yes I agree with that quote fully AND would happily commit that to memory if it wasn't already (it's also posted on my fridge I never knew who said it though) but you still haven't answered anything.
  • danisnotstr8

    Posts: 2579

    Aug 12, 2009 1:49 AM GMT
    RyanReBoRn saidThat quote is antagonistic, try this one instead.

    "Heterosexuality is as normal as bisexuality which is as normal as homosexuality." Ryan O.

    Since sexuality lies on a continuum between the two endpoints, the lie is that everyone is either at one end point or the other.


    I think the original quote certainly could be interpreted as antagonistic.... but I think that the use of the word "normal" here means "correct" rather than "equally distributed."

    Your quote is nice.
  • styrgan

    Posts: 2017

    Aug 12, 2009 1:54 AM GMT
    lilTanker said
    styrgan saidI thought it was a very nice quote, personally...

    It's a nice quote but I don't believe it to be entirely accurate nor will it be a very effective argument to use in a situation where you are having to argue your rights as an individual, a homosexual or as a community.


    I don't exactly disagree with you. You cannot deny, however, that there have been many great and noble civilizations where homosexuality was in many ways favored. The quote is an excellent zinger to that argument.
  • danisnotstr8

    Posts: 2579

    Aug 12, 2009 1:58 AM GMT
    lilTanker saidno.. although yes, every day has turned into a bad hair day now that I'm "growing my hair out" icon_sad.gif

    I have fighting words, I've argued about my rights, but I've come to realise they aren't worth the effort, those same people go home still with the same thoughts, still with the same ideas, still with the same hate.

    I have changed more minds by just being me, then by fighting someone, I have had more people come up to me after they have found out I'm gay and told me that I "apparently" opened there eyes to the idea that "gay" isn't bad.

    These people who have minds that are willing to change will change not in an intense argument where they feel attacked and vulnerable, they will close off, clamp up and be less willing to see reason.

    A person who is calm and unbeaten is more likely to think for them self.

    Conversely those who are entirely closed off to the idea of change will remain that way, no matter how good my argument, no matter how fool proof.


    OK, lilTanker, I'm going to explain what I mean in more detail:

    When you say that you've "come to realise" that your words aren't worth the effort, you're missing one detail. When you "fight" with powerful words, many times, those people will go home seemingly unaffected. However, they're thinking about it. To deny others the opportunity to hear your argument based on your estimation of an experience with someone else is to deny them the opportunity to learn. Not everyone changes his or her mind within the parameters of the actual debate. As a teacher, I have seen so many students change their minds about things over many days, or months, or even years. I have had students contact me and say that they had considered my talks about women's and gay people's rights within a different context-- i.e. in college-- and they have thanked me for saying some things that they never forgot. No single man will change the world, but as Margaret Mead suggested (posted by jackofhearts), a group of people CAN.

    You might not feel as though you changed someone, but perhaps you were another chip off the old block. Ya know? Persistence is key. Whittle it down.
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    Aug 12, 2009 2:20 AM GMT
    danisnotstr8 saidOK, lilTanker, I'm going to explain what I mean in more detail:

    When you say that you've "come to realise" that your words aren't worth the effort, you're missing one detail. When you "fight" with powerful words, many times, those people will go home seemingly unaffected. However, they're thinking about it. To deny others the opportunity to hear your argument based on your estimation of an experience with someone else is to deny them the opportunity to learn. Not everyone changes his or her mind within the parameters of the actual debate. As a teacher, I have seen so many students change their minds about things over many days, or months, or even years. I have had students contact me and say that they had considered my talks about women's and gay people's rights within a different context-- i.e. in college-- and they have thanked me for saying some things that they never forgot. No single man will change the world, but as Margaret Mead suggested (posted by jackofhearts), a group of people CAN.

    You might not feel as though you changed someone, but perhaps you were another chip off the old block. Ya know? Persistence is key. Whittle it down.

    off hand, I can think of about 43 different clients who where shocked and uncomfortable to find out I was gay, 39 of those clients become great clients who all said the same thing that I had changed there ideas.

    At no point did I ever talk about my self, my rights, I did not fight verbally with them, I maintained my self, my ideas and my views and never once did I let there opinion sway me or knock me down, if they ever attempted (and some did) to push me out of the way, they where put back in there place, never did any of them get to treat me as less of a person and a few of them where picked up on that.

    Friends, some similar, told them I was gay, some didn't care, some did, most who did are still friends and now don't care, same thing, I never fought them, they asked me questions, I answered, questions included things like "why should gays me allowed to be married" "why should gays be given the right to adopt" and the questions went on and on and on and at no point did I fight them, I simply answer there questions, if they disagreed, then I did not mind.

    I've watched arguments going on around here, I've read through replies to threads 300+ posts long, the arguments that seem to take place here (and out in the real world) are the same tired arguments that people have been fighting for decades and they are still going. What have we gotten from these arguments? after so many decades if argument works why are we still arguing about the same things?

    YES, I agree, minds have been changed with argument, but I've also changed mines without argument.. these minds I don't believe changed because of the argument it's self but because the person will change anyway when exposed to new ideas and new views.. we have just both gone about it differently.

    I think you might misunderstand me when I say I don't waste my time, I will never let another person take away my rights, just as I will never let another person take away there rights, I will never lay down and allow my self to be walked on, I will quite literally die before my ideals are destroyed by another person again. they may not cross this line and this line never moves.
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    Aug 12, 2009 4:36 AM GMT
    danisnotstr8 said
    lilTanker said


    Interesting discussion and it seems to me you're both right - yes, change happens and is effected through many different means.

    But change, especially social change, tends to happen incrementally, almost unnoticeable over long periods of time. It seldom happens in tsunamis of sudden obvious change.
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    Aug 12, 2009 4:47 AM GMT
    tommyclement said
    danisnotstr8 said
    lilTanker said


    Interesting discussion and it seems to me you're both right - yes, change happens and is effected through many different means.

    But change, especially social change, tends to happen incrementally, almost unnoticeable over long periods of time. It seldom happens in tsunamis of sudden obvious change.

    actually it does happen, but it's usually an equally large catalysis, on a scale that most people like to think about.
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    Aug 12, 2009 4:55 AM GMT
    In the immortal words of Bruce LaBruce

    Heterosexuality is the opiate of the masses.
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    Aug 12, 2009 5:10 AM GMT
    Pinny said"Heterosexuality isn't normal, it is normalized." Eric Fassin


    This new wave that started with Boswell of digging into the past to justify the literal invention of a straight culture gets my blood flowing.


    The idea of a constant straight culture existing since the dawn of the first man and woman is the greatest lie ever told.


    no thanks.. don't really agree with it
  • cbrett

    Posts: 609

    Aug 12, 2009 12:20 PM GMT
    the happiness of life is made up of minute fractions - the little, soon forgotten charities of a kiss or smile, a kind look, heart-felt compliment and the countless infinitesimals of pleasurable and genial feelings



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