I have been working out 4-5x a week with very little progress. I am considering supplementing my workouts with steriods, as I have some friends that have good results. I am trying to find out some pro's and con's of the drug, and also if it is a good thing to use them for one cycle, get muscle mass built up, and then stop taking them? Any suggestions? Thanks
Steroids do a lot of damage to your internal organs, and make you have bulgey abs. There are a lot of supplements that pack on the muscle and don't damage the body you're trying to worship.
syd_hockey_79 saidMy suggestion would be to maybe look at other factors of your training first. What exercises are you doing? Sets, reps? How's your diet going?
What Syd said - I would really look at type of training you're doing and diet/nutrition and look at supplements. Also, might have to reevaluate goals and expected time frame - sometimes its not that you're not progressing but rather you are not progressing in the time frame you expected. Also, I suffer from "Im not making any progress" I hope you took some pics when you started. If so , perhaps you can take some current shots and see how they measure up.
barriehomeboy saidIt's not craigslist. The dude isn't looking to share photos of himself.
I fail to see how suggesting someone review their progress through photos that might reveal change when daily changes could easily missed equates to craigslist.
Sometimes it is difficult to see changes in yourself when you see yourself daily - a pictoral record can provide "proof" to oneself that change actually IS happening. It might be an issue of self perception over reality. Why have someone take a possible dangerous course of action without fully evaluating the "little or no progress" statement.
Steroids can cause numerous health issues in men. Depending on age, latent prostate cancer can become virulently activated. I believe the statistics are 1 in 6 men over 50 have latent prostate cancer which will most likely not amount to anything but exposure to male hormone in tehse men could "ignite" it. As for younger men that of course is less of an issue but there are other negative health impacts nonetheless. Advising someone who asks the question "what about steroids?" to be careful and consider all possible venues first seems like responsible advice.
mjn1982 saidI have been working out 4-5x a week with very little progress. I am considering supplementing my workouts with steriods, as I have some friends that have good results. I am trying to find out some pro's and con's of the drug, and also if it is a good thing to use them for one cycle, get muscle mass built up, and then stop taking them? Any suggestions? Thanks
You're nowhere near a natural limit. Bad idea to use. Your question suggests limited independent research on steroids. Very bad idea to use.
mjn1982 saidI have been working out 4-5x a week with very little progress. I am considering supplementing my workouts with steriods, as I have some friends that have good results. I am trying to find out some pro's and con's of the drug, and also if it is a good thing to use them for one cycle, get muscle mass built up, and then stop taking them? Any suggestions? Thanks
Understand that like many things there are trade offs. Testosterone is made by your body, and nothing could be more natural. I could make points about all the studies showing the benefits of testosterone supplementation, and the fact that there is zero creditable evidence againgst AAS (In fact, NO agency recommended they be controlled and HRT is a BOOMING business. Additonally, endos have asked that testosterone be removed from schedule III because it's good medicine, and has been studied and used with great success.) You're at the age that HRT could be just the treatment you need to preserve your health, vim and vigor well into middle age. Testosterone will protect your heart, improve your sense of well being, aid in your performance and recovery, and prevent diseases of aging like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's. It's no coincidence that AAS remain the treatment of choice for wasting diseases, and aging disorders.
I personally spent hours talking to my own doctors and geriatric physicians who know the truth. I encourage you to explore that for yourself.
I encourage you view these.
ABC's 20/20
Bigger, Stronger, Faster
HBO's Real Sports Episode #99
Also there are many, many, many studies showing the benefits of AAS. There is little to no evidence of long term adverse affects. Read the studies, such as UNT's 1999 mortality study showing that pro and nationally ranked bodybuilders not only enjoy a higher standard of fitness, and quality of life, but, also LIVE LONGER.
I'd tune your training first, but, also see the doctor and get on HRT, too.
Also there are many, many, many studies showing the benefits of AAS. There is little to no evidence of long term adverse affects. Read the studies, such as UNT's 1999 mortality study showing that pro and nationally ranked bodybuilders not only enjoy a higher standard of fitness, and quality of life, but, also LIVE LONGER.
1. There are few studies looking at the long term adverse effects from AAS use for several reasons. These can include the fact that those who use AAS probably wouldnt come forward to be in such a project (because that would admit that you are using AAS or have used); that AAS users use much higher doses than 'therapeutic' levels the medical profession would prescribe for many conditions that require AAS; and that AAS use has been such a stigmatised activity that we're only now really getting good information about peoples' patterns of use. Furthermore, from an epidemiological viewpoint, it's difficult to tease out the effects that AAS may have on adverse health consequences across a person's lifespan.
Just because there is a small amount of literature on a phenomenon doesn't mean that the phenomenon doesn't exist. There is little to no research looking at the long term effects of MDMA use in humans, but that doesn't mean there are no effects.
2. Yes, there are studies showing the benefits of AAS. Many of these are self-reported.
3. Bodybuilders live a longer life compared to who?
Many of you talk about there not being proof of any negative effects of steroids.
Yet none of you have mentioned 'roid rage... which can be a HUGE problem for people.
For those of you who dont believe in roid rage, see below:
http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofacts/steroids.html
"Preclinical, clinical, and anecdotal reports suggest that steroids may contribute to psychiatric dysfunction. Research shows that abuse of anabolic steroids may lead to aggression and other adverse effects.1 For example, although many users report feeling good about themselves while on anabolic steroids, extreme mood swings can also occur, including manic-like symptoms that could lead to violence.2 Researchers have also observed that users may suffer from paranoid jealousy, extreme irritability, delusions, and impaired judgment stemming from feelings of invincibility."
.... I dont know if any of you have seen what a person looks like who is in the middle of a manic episode... but it isn't pretty.
The denial in this forum is insane.
Its well known that steroid use is high among the gay population. Thus all the older men who have these muscular, ripped bodies....
In any event, the need to use steroids would be, in my eyes, related to a body image disorder..... the need for a certain body type is so great that it drives people to engage in illegal activities... injecting substances into their bodies...
To the poster: you can gain muscle mass, you just have to try to change up your routine, eat a TON of protein, and possibly weight gainer shakes... all of which are legal options...
ZbmwM5 saidMany of you talk about there not being proof of any negative effects of steroids.
The denial in this forum is insane.
I think if you read the posts a little more slowly and carefully, you might see that the majority of people have not denied the negative effects of AAS, and in fact are urging the OP to seek other avenues to get the best out of his workout.
I think the fact that not all of the posts denounce the use of roids is indicative of some denial.... and might we take a look at those who seem to be 'steroid apologists'....
ZbmwM5 saidI think the fact that not all of the posts denounce the use of roids is indicative of some denial.... and might we take a look at those who seem to be 'steroid apologists'....
Because people should be allowed to make their own choices. Whether we agree with those choices or not is different.
Bah; I think people have a basic right to do as they chose with their own bodies. However, I don't think anyone should do things because they feel bad about themselves (i.e. someone who takes steroids to fulfill a dysmorphia-inspired goal to "be larger"-- just like an anorexic girl will never be thin enough, these people will never be big enough, no matter what they do), and I especially don't think people should do stupid things (hence my initial reply posting).
There's no good, solid, totally sound long-term human research on the effects of AAS use, good or bad. There is decent evidence that long-term use can cause problems, most notably atherosclerosis and cardiomyopathy. But, in particular, studies on outcomes of AAS use typically do not differentiate between controlled and monitored use (the sort you might see international-level bodybuilders doing with a doctor, a nutritionist, an endocrinologist, and pharmacist) and the sort of use Joe Shmo does (maybe more problems, if there are issues with getting real gear, with keeping sterile, etc.)
The prostate cancer link is nothing more than urban myth, to my knowledge. If a poster can find a study that links AAS use in humans or in animals at human-typical doses to prostate cancer I'll gladly read it, but I don't think it exists.
As for roid rage, I'm unaware of any work that teases apart AAS effects from existing psychopathology, inclinations to psychopathology, or social/cultural factors.
mjn1982 saidI have been working out 4-5x a week with very little progress. I am considering supplementing my workouts with steriods, as I have some friends that have good results. I am trying to find out some pro's and con's of the drug, and also if it is a good thing to use them for one cycle, get muscle mass built up, and then stop taking them? Any suggestions? Thanks
Like any drug (or food for that matter), anabolics can be used in healthy moderation with minimal side effects, or they can be abused. What are your goals? How much muscle are you hoping to add?
The best way to make sure you're using anabolics from a pure source while dosing for optimal health is to talk to your doctor. Unfortunately a lot of doctors prescribe to the same negative stereotypes about steroids that most of the public adhere to, so it might take research to find a doc who's had some experience in hormone replacement therapy.
There are some great, non-injectable products like Andro-gel or Testim which will help boost your natural levels of testosterone, and will definitely give you a boost in muscle building, along with a host of other potential pluses including increased sex drive, better sleeping, more steady appetite, more steady moods. Regular blood work with your doctor makes sure everything is in check. A lot safer than buying something in the alley behind the gym.
Of course your doctor isn't going to give you something that'll make you explode into the incredible Hulk. Again, depends on your goals.
..if it is a good thing to use them for one cycle, get muscle mass built up, and then stop taking them?..
Once you stop taking the steroids, you lose all the mass you gained while you were on your cycle. And you're back where you started.
Steroids are a personal choice. I don't care either way. But I think too many guys are quick to turn to steroids as a substitute for proper training and nutrition. The OP is only 26.. So much natural potential there.
If he was 46, it would be a different story. At that age, your body produces less testosterone and a little chemical enhancement with doctor supervision is totally understandable.
Also, he didn't indicate how long he's been training. One month? One year?
Do you have a personal trainer? If not I highly recommend you obtain one. Steroids are a cheat, and you can not take them your whole life. Cheating never has a happy ending.
Would you rather have a body that you achieved mostly through chemical alteration, or a body that you worked hard for and can take pride in. What are you hoping to accomplish by bulking up? Attracting a certain type of guy? What?
Another questions is how long have you been working out and are you switching up your routines? Most people want what they want immediately after the impulse hits them. It doesn't work like that, your body has to make adaptations to what you're doing and those adaptations can be slow. Especially if you're doing the same thing over and over again.
xrichx said..if it is a good thing to use them for one cycle, get muscle mass built up, and then stop taking them?..
Once you stop taking the steroids, you lose all the mass you gained while you were on your cycle. And you're back where you started.
I seem to remember reading recently that this is not true....couldn't find it, but I believe I read something that people can actually keep a lot of their gains even after quitting, which came up as an issue in the Olympics and if they should ban people who did them EVER, since they still were benefitting from them
Once tissue is exposed to androgen, it is forever changed. However, in order to maintain pre-exposure levels the androgen levels, calories, and stimulus, have to be maintained. E.g. a man's voice and bone structure and structure of his muscles at the molecular level. There have been a number of studies done on folks with only very brief exposure that have had visible changes years later. Just as a transvestite can get rid of some masculinity, they can never get rid of all of it.
Bouncing your endocrine levels around is not good. It's better to stay consistent. Unless you're dealing with hepatoxic items (e.g. Tylenol), hepatoxicity is not an issue.
For testosterone to be hepatoxic, you need to take upwards of 5000mg weekly. Those doses are well beyond endogenous or super-physiological, and would be considered extreme in almost any venue.
If you're 26 or older, or have a test level of below 600, you can benefit from supplementation. It's in no way cheating. Testosterone, unlike some meds, is 100% natural and is produced by your body. The difference is that it works at the cellular level and is very effective as opposed to other "snake oils" designed to line the pockets of the promoter.
You really don't want to bounce yourself around. Get on, and stay on, and it's best to do it with a progressive doctor who has a background in sports medicine and who knows the truth, and steps around the misinformation.
Because of the misinformation campaign, it's o.k. for a women to take estrogen / birth control, but, not for a man to take testosterone. We have a double standard where men can't as readily enjoy the health benefits that are provided by the proper adjustment of the endocrine system. You see those guys on statins, and a slew of drugs, that could be easily provided if they were given testosterone as andropause commenced.
I've met more than a few medical folks who know the truth, and imbibe themselves.
The biggest pro of supplementation of androgen? Good health. The biggest con of supplementation of androgen? Stigma and legal problems.
ZbmwM5 saidMany of you talk about there not being proof of any negative effects of steroids.
Yet none of you have mentioned 'roid rage... which can be a HUGE problem for people.
For those of you who dont believe in roid rage, see below:
http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofacts/steroids.html
"Preclinical, clinical, and anecdotal reports suggest that steroids may contribute to psychiatric dysfunction. Research shows that abuse of anabolic steroids may lead to aggression and other adverse effects.1 For example, although many users report feeling good about themselves while on anabolic steroids, extreme mood swings can also occur, including manic-like symptoms that could lead to violence.2 Researchers have also observed that users may suffer from paranoid jealousy, extreme irritability, delusions, and impaired judgment stemming from feelings of invincibility."
.... I dont know if any of you have seen what a person looks like who is in the middle of a manic episode... but it isn't pretty.
The denial in this forum is insane.
Its well known that steroid use is high among the gay population. Thus all the older men who have these muscular, ripped bodies....
In any event, the need to use steroids would be, in my eyes, related to a body image disorder..... the need for a certain body type is so great that it drives people to engage in illegal activities... injecting substances into their bodies...
To the poster: you can gain muscle mass, you just have to try to change up your routine, eat a TON of protein, and possibly weight gainer shakes... all of which are legal options...
Note the word "suggests." There's never been, and the AMA, AHA, and ALA, and well as the US ARMY, have never documented a case of "roid rage." That's an excuse invented because juice was moved from over the counter status in 1988, and later to a controlled status in 1991. Faced with dire consequences, folks will claim about anything. Again, there has never been a documented case of "roid rage" in nearly 60 years of study. That's urban myth. In fact, testosterone is well known for promoting a sense of well-being, and self-confidence, as well as promoting a strong immune system (that's why it's used for the sickest of the sick, like HIV, cancer, burns, dire infections, and post op).
Ironically, the misinformation campaign has met with some success in the lay public. A 2007 GAO study showed that users are above average intelligence, health, and very risk adverse, live longer, and have better jobs, and education, than the general public. The study noted that it's hard to fool intelligent people with bogus scare tactics (a paraphrase).
I spent 11 years in broadcast news. I've spent 35 years in weight gyms across the country. I've spent hours talking with doctors.
Most of the folks I've ever met that "juice" are very centered. They like the way their high performance feels, as opposed to some sense of insecurity. I've met very few folks who I'd say are insecure, or have a warped body image. In fact, just the opposite. They're focused, driven, brilliant, and disciplined almost without exception.
OP, there is no easy way to get you to where you want to go. Half the fun is the journey, itself. It takes years of learning what routines work best for you, including diet and exercise. It is an incredible journey or self-awareness that only fools try to expedite. Steroids are not the answer.
syd_hockey_79 saidMy suggestion would be to maybe look at other factors of your training first. What exercises are you doing? Sets, reps? How's your diet going?
What Syd said - I would really look at type of training you're doing and diet/nutrition and look at supplements. Also, might have to reevaluate goals and expected time frame - sometimes its not that you're not progressing but rather you are not progressing in the time frame you expected. Also, I suffer from "Im not making any progress" I hope you took some pics when you started. If so , perhaps you can take some current shots and see how they measure up.
I agree that finding a picture of yourself before you started working out and putting it next to a current photo...can be really, really helpful in demonstrating to yourself that you, indeed, have made more changes than you may have realized...I recently did this: I found a picture that was taken in 2006 right before I started working out and juxtaposed it to a picture of me taken exactly 3 years later...while I was aware that I had put on some weight...I was really surprised to see how MUCH my body had changed in those intervening years....I was always "the skinny" kid growing up...and in many ways still see myself that way, regardless of evidence to the contrary (perhaps a bit of body dysmorphia?) ...seeing the pictures side by side has really helped me come to terms with the changes I've made...hell, I even posted it on my profile...
So, to stay a bit on track: keep at and exhaust every other available avenue before checking out the steroids...and then think more than twice about it...maybe talk to your doctor and have your free testosterone levels checked...maybe it's low...
arielanatole saidDo you have a personal trainer? If not I highly recommend you obtain one. Steroids are a cheat, and you can not take them your whole life. Cheating never has a happy ending.
Tapper saidOP, there is no easy way to get you to where you want to go. Half the fun is the journey, itself. It takes years of learning what routines work best for you, including diet and exercise. It is an incredible journey or self-awareness that only fools try to expedite. Steroids are not the answer.
This is misinformed and just plain wrong, and mostly a product of unfair stigma generated by the media (from what I can tell). Hormone replacement therapy is no more cheating than taking an aspirin for a headache, taking a multi-vitamin to replace what's lacking in one's diet, using Lipitor to lower cholesterol, wearing glasses to see correctly, treating allergies with a prescription, filling a cavity... the list of ways in which we alter our bodies to live longer, happier and healthier could go on and on.
Women are routinely prescribed a long list of hormones and hormone altering drugs without stigma. But when a man seeks similar therapy he's labeled as vanity driven, insecure, and a cheater. Can someone justify the double standard?
Like any drug, there's potential for abuse, and a risk of side effects. Aspirin increases the risk of gastrointestinal bleeding, ringing sound in the ear, ulcers, anaphylactic shock. But dosed correctly, it provides a benefit millions of people employ.
With a doctor's supervision, steroids can contribute a huge deal to the overall health, longevity and well being of men. Look past the stereotypes and stigma (as gay men you should be used to this!) and do even a small amount of research for yourself, and know what you're talking about before posting inflammatory misinformation.
vince_in_chicago said Look past the stereotypes and stigma (as gay men you should be used to this!) and do even a small amount of research for yourself, and know what you're talking about before posting inflammatory misinformation.
I'd suggest you do the same thing. Comparing male steroid use (that being men taking it for no other health benefit than to gain mass) to taking an aspirin for a headache or a multi-vitamin as a dietary supplement, or Lipitor to lower cholesterol or wearing eye glasses to correct one's vision is the pinnacle of stupidity.
Tapper said I'd suggest you do the same thing. Comparing male steroid use (that being men taking it for no other health benefit than to gain mass) to taking an aspirin for a headache or a multi-vitamin as a dietary supplement, or Lipitor to lower cholesterol or wearing eye glasses to correct one's vision is the pinnacle of stupidity.
You obviously know little on the subject.
"Pinnacle of stupidity"? Hehe. Good god. The point was, we do a number of things to alter our bodies. We live in an age of modern pharmaceuticals and health care, and routinely alter our bodies to live longer, healthier, happier. Many men don't produce enough testosterone, and the benefits oh steroids for these men include a long list of life improving functions in addition to increasing lean body mass.
Quoting my doctor, "nothing is harder on your liver, and nothing makes you lose muscle mass faster that statins. You don't need them." Statins are drugs like Crestcor and Lipitor. Note the above came straight from my M.D. FYI, my cholesterol, after 34 years of training, is 130.
OTC drugs and statins are, indeed, very much more dangerous than testosterone.
xrichx said..if it is a good thing to use them for one cycle, get muscle mass built up, and then stop taking them?..
Once you stop taking the steroids, you lose all the mass you gained while you were on your cycle. And you're back where you started.
Steroids are a personal choice. I don't care either way. But I think too many guys are quick to turn to steroids as a substitute for proper training and nutrition. The OP is only 26.. So much natural potential there.
If he was 46, it would be a different story. At that age, your body produces less testosterone and a little chemical enhancement with doctor supervision is totally understandable.
Also, he didn't indicate how long he's been training. One month? One year?
This is also misinformation. In most folks, testosterone peaks and starts dropping in the late 20's to early 30's. I know a number of 30 year olds and even mid 20 year olds on HRT, or that have their test adjusted upwards of 1200. That's not 40 years old but LATE 20's. It's more prudent to start using earlier, in the late 20 to mid 30's than waiting until you face the diseases of low androgen. Prevention is a MUCH better option. In some cases, young men have test levels from 200 to 600. While they can function at those levels, they feel much better at levels from 1000 to 1200. Studies have been done on this with folks who are sick with HIV. Keeping levels above 1000 had very positive effects on their long term outcome. Again, your test typically starts dropped in your late 20s to early 30s and some folks are low from the get go. Sooner is better than later. There's no need to wait until middle age. You get on, and you stay on. Just like anything else.
xrichx said..if it is a good thing to use them for one cycle, get muscle mass built up, and then stop taking them?..
Once you stop taking the steroids, you lose all the mass you gained while you were on your cycle. And you're back where you started.
Steroids are a personal choice. I don't care either way. But I think too many guys are quick to turn to steroids as a substitute for proper training and nutrition. The OP is only 26.. So much natural potential there.
If he was 46, it would be a different story. At that age, your body produces less testosterone and a little chemical enhancement with doctor supervision is totally understandable.
Also, he didn't indicate how long he's been training. One month? One year?
This is also misinformation. In most folks, testosterone peaks and starts dropping in the late 20's to early 30's. I know a number of 30 year olds and even mid 20 year olds on HRT, or that have their test adjusted upwards of 1200. That's not 40 years old but LATE 20's. It's more prudent to start using earlier, in the late 20 to mid 30's than waiting until you face the diseases of low androgen. Prevention is a MUCH better option. In some cases, young men have test levels from 200 to 600. While they can function at those levels, they feel much better at levels from 1000 to 1200. Studies have been done on this with folks who are sick with HIV. Keeping levels above 1000 had very positive effects on their long term outcome. Again, your test typically starts dropped in your late 20s to early 30s and some folks are low from the get go. Sooner is better than later. There's no need to wait until middle age. You get on, and you stay on. Just like anything else.
But... you lose the ability to naturally produce a normal amount of testosterone on your own...
mjn1982 saidI have been working out 4-5x a week with very little progress. I am considering supplementing my workouts with steriods, as I have some friends that have good results. I am trying to find out some pro's and con's of the drug, and also if it is a good thing to use them for one cycle, get muscle mass built up, and then stop taking them? Any suggestions? Thanks
I was exactly where you are about five weeks ago. I hadn't come to the point of considering steroids, but I was disenchanted (to say the least) with the lack of gains I was making versus the time I was spending in the gym.
Have you tried Real Jock's 12-week muscle building program? I'm in week four of it and dude, let me tell you - this is the real deal. I'll be posting my pics when I'm done with the entire program, but believe me when I say I'm seeing big gains already.
Before leaping to the extreme of steroids, I would highly suggest altering your workout routine with something proven to work. Take a really good look at your diet too. Are you really fueling yourself with the best possible nutrients? The workout plan I'm in is intensely demanding, difficult, arduous, but ultimately rewarding.
I think before you start looking at steroids (I'm not here to tell you not too) you need to learn more about what your doing and how your doing it.
From photos you don't look like you have an impressive body at least with what I can make out, infact, you look about average, you take care of your self but aren't super big or super cut..
If you are wanting to continue gaining mass you need to learn how, injecting your self this early in the game wont do shit for you. Go read, EVERYTHING you can about body building/strength training, what to eat, when to eat, how much to eat, how to workout, when to work out, everything you possibly can to achieve your goals before turning to an artificial stimulus, that yes, will help you see gains, but you wont keep them if you keep doing what your doing.
You need to learn how and when to change things up, learn about the ideas and techniques that will help you along the path to gains beyond what you've achieved so far.
I'm not telling you this to stop you from using steroids, at some point you might want too, what i am trying to say though, is learn to push your self as hard as you humanly can, to achieve all that you can both mentally and physically before you turn to other means.
xrichx said..if it is a good thing to use them for one cycle, get muscle mass built up, and then stop taking them?..
Once you stop taking the steroids, you lose all the mass you gained while you were on your cycle. And you're back where you started.
Steroids are a personal choice. I don't care either way. But I think too many guys are quick to turn to steroids as a substitute for proper training and nutrition. The OP is only 26.. So much natural potential there.
If he was 46, it would be a different story. At that age, your body produces less testosterone and a little chemical enhancement with doctor supervision is totally understandable.
Also, he didn't indicate how long he's been training. One month? One year?
This is also misinformation. In most folks, testosterone peaks and starts dropping in the late 20's to early 30's. I know a number of 30 year olds and even mid 20 year olds on HRT, or that have their test adjusted upwards of 1200. That's not 40 years old but LATE 20's. It's more prudent to start using earlier, in the late 20 to mid 30's than waiting until you face the diseases of low androgen. Prevention is a MUCH better option. In some cases, young men have test levels from 200 to 600. While they can function at those levels, they feel much better at levels from 1000 to 1200. Studies have been done on this with folks who are sick with HIV. Keeping levels above 1000 had very positive effects on their long term outcome. Again, your test typically starts dropped in your late 20s to early 30s and some folks are low from the get go. Sooner is better than later. There's no need to wait until middle age. You get on, and you stay on. Just like anything else.
But... you lose the ability to naturally produce a normal amount of testosterone on your own...
Again, more misinformation. In fact, receptor sites up regulate and your ability to process androgenic increases.
For HRT, normal can be a broad range.
And, study after study has shown that even if you take T3, T4 (not AAS, but thryroid complex), or androgens (testosterone), even for YEARS, you pick up right where you left off in the case of T3/T4, in just a few days, in the case of androgens, in just a few weeks. Shutdown is not permanent, even if you use these things for 3 decades, and this has been well studied. I'm afraid you're ill informed.
Testosterone is what makes you a guy, and nothing could be more natural. It's not a drug, in the truest sense of the word. It's an endogenous hormone required for good health.
There is a considerable difference in taking testosterone for aging and anabolic steroids for appearance and athletic performance. Testosterone replacement is legal and has shown to have medical benefits. It can slow muscle wasting associated with aging (sarcopenia), treat osteoporosis, improve mentation by reducing the risk for dementia and improves affect. Longevity is also increased. Anabolic steroids are illegal to use for athletic performance. Anabolic steroids have medical indications to treat muscle wasting disorders like AIDS. Neither testosterone or anabolic steroids have been proven to cause prostate cancer. What is known is that prostate cancer is more common in men with higher testosterone levels, but this is not proof for cause and effect. Black males have 15% higher levels of testosterone than whites and have a much higher incidence of prostate cancer..Castrated males do not get prostate cancer. While cycling with anabolics, serum testosterone levels are elevated..when off the cycle the levels of testosterone will drop low (like the castrated male) and theoretically could offer protection. If you have prostate cancer, testosterone will feed the cancer and result in a earlier demise: just like estrogen does for women with breast cancer. Prostate cancer is treated by reducing testosterone levels either by surgical castration or chemical castration through manipulation of hormones. There is a a weak link between anabolics and liver cancer. But anabolics steroids are known to cause tumors that form in your liver. Called hepatic adenomas, these tumors are not cancerous. However, they are dangerous because they can rupture and cause serious bleeding in the liver. There have been several reported deaths caused by bleeding from ruptured hepatic adenomas. The link between hepatic adenomas and anabolic steroid use in athletes is increasing. Recently, a case of a hepatic adenoma turning into liver cancer was reported. There are of course other problems which may be associated with long term steroid use such as gynecosmastia, erectile dysfunction, decreased sperm production, insulin resistance, polycythemia, cholesterol abnormlities and more.
You need to determine if the risk is worth the benefit.. For me, I would never use anabolic steroids. The risk outweighs the benefits. I would would certainly use testosterone for replacement therapy in aging with close monitoring of the PSA which could indicate prostate cancer. If you chose to take anabolic steroids make sure you are well versed. Anabolic steroids are very complicated. There are different classes. The 17-alpha-alkyl group is associated with the hepatic adenomas; other classes are not.
MsclDrew saidAs far as I can see the only con seems to be jabbing yourself in the ass with needles
The preferred method is injection into the thigh and not the ass. You can damage the sciatic nerve with an injection into the buttocks
Since you do not believe that anabolic steroids have cons, you can take the oral form, especially the 17 alkyl group with impunity rather than the more painful and inconvenient injectable form deemed safer by physicians and pharmacologists.
xrichx said..if it is a good thing to use them for one cycle, get muscle mass built up, and then stop taking them?..
Once you stop taking the steroids, you lose all the mass you gained while you were on your cycle. And you're back where you started.
That is not true!! If you maintain your workouts and proper nutrition you do not lose your gains, just the added water weight!
Woah dude, your eyes look like they're Mako infused! Pretty neat.
As for the debunking of information about steroids, I'll just wait to see if that's really the case or not. It's not like I really have to worry about a drop in my testosterone or anything just yet. If you feel like you need them and they're won't be any negative side affects, go for it.
Excuse me for pointing out the obvious, but if you are actually working out 5 days a week for 60 minutes at a time, and not seeing gains, you are quite likely over trained. Take 10 days off, no you won't lose everything you gained, it's called strategic deconditoning, and more simply it's rest the body needs to recover. Then start back on a 3 day a week plan with a good nutritional plan with plenty of protein, some sensible supplements like whey protein and creatine, and last but not least sleep at least 8.5 hours per day. Thy this for 3 months and see if you don't make impressive gains.
You owe it to yourself to try everything else before you start playing with felonies. The previous posters have argued out the medical aspects so I won't chime in on that. The number one con to steroids: the potential for PRISON.
The best thing to do is research!! There are plenty of resources out there, besides this forum, with good information! Be careful with what you put into your body and know the possible side effects! Make an informed decision!
MsclDrew saidAs far as I can see the only con seems to be jabbing yourself in the ass with needles
The preferred method is injection into the thigh and not the ass. You can damage the sciatic nerve with an injection into the buttocks
Since you do not believe that anabolic steroids have cons, you can take the oral form, especially the 17 alkyl group with impunity rather than the more painful and inconvenient injectable form deemed safer by physicians and pharmacologists.
Yup, you can, and destroy your liver in the process!!
find the pros and cons yourself. literature, provided you get it from a valid scientific source (and thats pretty much excludes any and all people in this chatroom) will be your best bet. and do your own homework. its true that dosed steroid usage is not as bad as proclaimed by the media and society in general (see: anal sex between gay men) but you also have to realize there are in fact, severe consequences as well. some people feel the benefit outweighs and some feel the consequence outweighs. however, you should deduce your own research. but above all remember. its fucking illegal for a reason
MsclDrew saidAs far as I can see the only con seems to be jabbing yourself in the ass with needles
The preferred method is injection into the thigh and not the ass. You can damage the sciatic nerve with an injection into the buttocks
Since you do not believe that anabolic steroids have cons, you can take the oral form, especially the 17 alkyl group with impunity rather than the more painful and inconvenient injectable form deemed safer by physicians and pharmacologists.
Huh interesting....
The sciatic nerve is beneath the glutes between the pelvis....I'd like to anyone penetrate the epidermis, subcutaneous fat and the largest muscle in the body entirely and inject into the nerve with a 21 gauge needle
caspervann saidfind the pros and cons yourself. literature, provided you get it from a valid scientific source (and thats pretty much excludes any and all people in this chatroom) will be your best bet. and do your own homework. its true that dosed steroid usage is not as bad as proclaimed by the media and society in general (see: anal sex between gay men) but you also have to realize there are in fact, severe consequences as well. some people feel the benefit outweighs and some feel the consequence outweighs. however, you should deduce your own research. but above all remember. its fucking illegal for a reason
Actually, testosterone is not hepatoxic. Tylenol is very hepatoxic, but, it's over the counter. C17 modded AAS can be hepatoxic, over long periods, but, don't compare to over the counter NSAIDS, and, in particular Tylenol.
They're illegal because Congress IGNORED the advice of every agency making a recommendation, and made them so. They aren't illegal because of health concerns. Tylenol, and statins, are far more dangerous from a hepatoxic stand point. If fact, every agency recommended they NOT be controlled. Trenbolone, used in livestock production, and present in almost all domestic beef, remains over the counter. Trenbolone is 500 times more anabolic than testosterone. As with pot, regulation has only moved the black market to the stronger versions, with less supervision, and burying the study and discussion into the underground. DUMB, as usual.
Understand, folks like the US Army have studied this stuff for YEARS.
And, also, understand that the endos have requested that testosterone not be controlled.
Being overweight is VERY MUCH more dangerous than AAS. Watch the movie "Supersize Me" to become more knowledgeable. Being fat isn't illegal, even though it's responsible for 2 MILLION deaths per year. There has NEVER been a death attributed to AAS in any form...ever.
And, so it goes: California is on the verge of legalizing pot, in defiance of federal law. Laws often don't have much to do with right, or wrong, nor the public good, but, are often about greed, suppression, capitalism. Just about 3 years ago, Texas finally allowed sodomy. Go figure. The argument that something is illegal because government knows best is rubbish.
FirstKnight saidThere is a considerable difference in taking testosterone for aging and anabolic steroids for appearance and athletic performance. Testosterone replacement is legal and has shown to have medical benefits. It can slow muscle wasting associated with aging (sarcopenia), treat osteoporosis, improve mentation by reducing the risk for dementia and improves affect. Longevity is also increased. Anabolic steroids are illegal to use for athletic performance. Anabolic steroids have medical indications to treat muscle wasting disorders like AIDS. Neither testosterone or anabolic steroids have been proven to cause prostate cancer. What is known is that prostate cancer is more common in men with higher testosterone levels, but this is not proof for cause and effect. Black males have 15% higher levels of testosterone than whites and have a much higher incidence of prostate cancer..Castrated males do not get prostate cancer. While cycling with anabolics, serum testosterone levels are elevated..when off the cycle the levels of testosterone will drop low (like the castrated male) and theoretically could offer protection. If you have prostate cancer, testosterone will feed the cancer and result in a earlier demise: just like estrogen does for women with breast cancer. Prostate cancer is treated by reducing testosterone levels either by surgical castration or chemical castration through manipulation of hormones. There is a a weak link between anabolics and liver cancer. But anabolics steroids are known to cause tumors that form in your liver. Called hepatic adenomas, these tumors are not cancerous. However, they are dangerous because they can rupture and cause serious bleeding in the liver. There have been several reported deaths caused by bleeding from ruptured hepatic adenomas. The link between hepatic adenomas and anabolic steroid use in athletes is increasing. Recently, a case of a hepatic adenoma turning into liver cancer was reported. There are of course other problems which may be associated with long term steroid use such as gynecosmastia, erectile dysfunction, decreased sperm production, insulin resistance, polycythemia, cholesterol abnormlities and more.
You need to determine if the risk is worth the benefit.. For me, I would never use anabolic steroids. The risk outweighs the benefits. I would would certainly use testosterone for replacement therapy in aging with close monitoring of the PSA which could indicate prostate cancer. If you chose to take anabolic steroids make sure you are well versed. Anabolic steroids are very complicated. There are different classes. The 17-alpha-alkyl group is associated with the hepatic adenomas; other classes are not.
Yep, only C17 stuff causes any real issues.
We have a double standard. Women can get breast implants, botox, etc., but, men...well that's a different story. Folks can smoke, eat, and drink themselves to death, and we don't jail them, but, guys that take AAS, and are the pinnacle of health..well that's a different story.
I know folks who have taken AAS for 30 years and have a PSA of .4. My own dad, who never took AAS or HRT, HAD a PSA of 4, and is on a LHRH antagonists, which have caused his PSA to drop, but, he feels horrible and has lots about 80 pounds. The shots bill to Medicare at $6,000.00 each and he's had 6 of them.
There's some scientific discussion that prostate cancer isn't triggered by testosterone as much as the ratios. Time will tell.
You misspoke. at the top, but corrected it at the bottom, C17 at high doses can cause hepatoxic problems, but, testosterone doesn't, even at very high dose levels, as you know. As you said, they're not cancer, they go away once you stop, and the biggest hazard is bleeding.
Ironically, folks are going to use the stuff, like it or not. Best they use the good stuff, with real science, than not. Nowadays, you see folks using the stronger stuff, because it's been driven underground, and there's lots of misinformation. Remember: the stuff was over the counter until 1988, so, guys my age and older, grew up around it, and have a pretty good grasp of what's real, and what isn't.
And, so it goes: California is on the verge of legalizing pot, in defiance of federal law. Laws often don't have much to do with right, or wrong, nor the public good, but, are often about greed, suppression, capitalism. Just about 3 years ago, Texas finally allowed sodomy. Go figure. The argument that something is illegal because government knows best is rubbish.
Laws are frequently about using fear to propel otherwise incompetent people into political and leadership positions and to keep them there.
Generally every proposition involving protecting children, drugs, animals or the environment can be used to propel yourself into office
Completely off topic...The story of Ted Haggard. A classic example... This dude is fucked up. We watched the HBO documentary last night.
Biden would say "save the children" and in fact did in 1991, but, very, very, few high school kids are at risk from A.A.S. Their biggest dangers are depression and obesity. Laws don't make sense many times. If we wanted to save lives, in earnest, we'd outlaw fat asses.
In a system where we now have "privatized"; "for profit", prisons, we'll likely see more of this.
I think it's interesting how California was ordered by federal court last week to release 1/3 of their prison population. The "War on Drugs" is a legacy of failed policy.
MsclDrew saidAs far as I can see the only con seems to be jabbing yourself in the ass with needles
The preferred method is injection into the thigh and not the ass. You can damage the sciatic nerve with an injection into the buttocks
Since you do not believe that anabolic steroids have cons, you can take the oral form, especially the 17 alkyl group with impunity rather than the more painful and inconvenient injectable form deemed safer by physicians and pharmacologists.
Huh interesting....
The sciatic nerve is beneath the glutes between the pelvis....I'd like to anyone penetrate the epidermis, subcutaneous fat and the largest muscle in the body entirely and inject into the nerve with a 21 gauge needle
A 21 gauge needle is a larger diameter than what is necessary for an anabolic like Deca-durabolin. Length of the needle is also relevant. A 1.5 inch long, 23 gauge needle is usually used to inject Deca-durabolin deep into the gluteus maximus muscle. It should only be done by trained medical personnel to ensure that the large nerves in the buttocks area are avoided. Actually if you don't know what your doing you can injure the sciatic nerve. This is a well known complication of a misdirected intramuscular injection in the buttocks (check a nursing or medical textbook if you want more info). The problem is more common in children but certainly can occur in adults. The proper place to give an IM injection in the buttocks is the upper outer quadrant. For the novice, the thigh is recommended to prevent nerve injury. Check with any nurse, they are well aware of the problem that can occur from an improper IM injection in the buttocks. There are malpractice cases against nurses and physicans that have damaged the sciatic nerve with IM injections.
I've been reading about sodomy law the sex offender registry in the US, relative to that in Europe and how various politicians have lobbied continuously to add various acts of 'sodomy', indecent exposure, underage sex to it to the point that the result is they have defeated it's intended purpose and ruined the lives of people for misdemeanors
Estrogen is a hormone that is primarily responsible for the development of female sexual characteristics. When taken in high doses by men, DHEA may be converted to estrogen, increasing levels of this hormone to abnormal levels. The overproduction of estrogen has a feminizing effect on the male body, including breast enlargement and testicular shrinkage. It may also cause prostrate disorders.
For about $30.00 a month, you can get the real thing from your doctor, and not the snake oil experts.
Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) is a multi-functional steroid that has been implicated in a broad range of biological effects in humans and other mammals. Together with its sulfate ester (DHEA-S), it is the most abundant steroid in humans. DHEA is produced by adrenal glands, but also synthesized de novo in the brain. It acts on the androgen receptor both directly and through its metabolites, which include androstenediol and androstendione, which can undergo further conversion to produce the androgen testosterone and the estrogens estrone and estradiol.[1] DHEA is also a potent sigma-1 agonist.[2] It is considered a neurosteroid.[1]
I.e., do DHEA ( a neurosteroid ) if you like girl things.
A few years ago, DHEA replacement was touted as the fountain of youth. DHEA is produced in the adrenal gland and levels fall as we age. This is similar to what happens with testosterone and growth hormone. Some individuals believed that normalizing the levels, like we do with testosterone replacement, would have beneficial effects. There is a lack of available studies on the long-term effects of DHEA. However, DHEA may cause higher than normal levels of androgens and estrogens in the body, and theoretically may increase the risk of prostate, breast, ovarian, and other hormone-sensitive cancers. There is sufficient evidence supporting the use of DHEA in the treatment of adrenal insufficiency, depression, induction of labor, and systemic lupus erythematosus. DHEA is available over the counter. DHEA is not as popular today as it was several years ago.
Another product that was readily available over the counter was androstenedione. This was made popular by Mark McGwire and is more anabolic than DHEA. I don't believe it is still available in the USA. In 2004 the FDA began a crusade against the availability of the drug.
You should probably just talk with your friends man...While there is a lot of good (and some bullshit) information here, they know you and will understand what your true goals are. Plus if they have used, I am sure they can let you know proper techniques, dosing (and timing), etc considerably better than someone that doesn't know you.
The majority of information you are getting here you could find on any major bodybuilding site. ANY of them. Google the topic and trust me the same info you are getting here you will get here, just from straight and gay people...male and female.
Also keep in mind that roids can change you - for better AND worse. They have this interesting quality of making you "more" of whatever it is you are already. If you are an inshape asshole, they will turn you into a really inshape asshole. If you are psychologically imbalanced to begin with, they can make you more prone to fits of rage (but maybe they won't - there is no true scientific testing that shows roid rage as a fact of taking them). They can also make you sublimely happy when you get to your goals...and down in the dumps when you cycle off of them and lose half of your strength (depending again on what is used and the quality). But basically steroids just make you "more" of whatever you currently are. Not much else.
Just popping a pill or shooting a needle loaded with oil into your asscheek/thigh will not all of a sudden make you lean and ripped. At all - and you would be surprised to think how many people believe just that. Without a ton of hard work, change in diet, and completely revamping your lifting routine to one that resembles the most intense training that you have ever gone through...there is no point to doing them. The steroids are not a crutch to help you along, they should be used as a tool to push you to the next level if you are going to use them.
Do your research, go to your physician and get a full checkup with blood work to check your cholesteral (sp?), and talk with your friends and the people around you that you know as they will be able to help you best.
Lastly, I am not advocating the use of steroids by anyone nor have I personally used steroids. The information I present here is of a purely hypothetical nature.
Tapper said I'd suggest you do the same thing. Comparing male steroid use (that being men taking it for no other health benefit than to gain mass) to taking an aspirin for a headache or a multi-vitamin as a dietary supplement, or Lipitor to lower cholesterol or wearing eye glasses to correct one's vision is the pinnacle of stupidity.
You obviously know little on the subject.
"Pinnacle of stupidity"? Hehe. Good god. The point was, we do a number of things to alter our bodies. We live in an age of modern pharmaceuticals and health care, and routinely alter our bodies to live longer, healthier, happier. Many men don't produce enough testosterone, and the benefits oh steroids for these men include a long list of life improving functions in addition to increasing lean body mass.
The above of the both of clear thinking, common sense, and reason. Nicely said.
