Homophobic?

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    Aug 16, 2009 3:44 AM GMT
    Ok so I was talking with a friend the other day and we got into the topic of gay pride. I told him that's not my scene and I generally don't like the idea of overly flamboyant guys and drag queens (I don't know why...but I sort of get wierded out by that) make me uncomfortable. He told me that I was "one of those gay guys that have internalized homophobia". I couldn't understand why. I'm all for gay equality and gender identity (and I'm not a republican lol) but I just think that those "overtly" gay events aren't for me. I'd honestly rather go to a concerts or hit some pool with friends. When I told my mom this (we have an awesome relationship and we can talk about anything...anything) she told me "well...it sounds to me like he's partially right. It doesn't mean you should totally embrace it, but you should be a little more tolerant to the idea". So I'm wondering, is not being too much into the gay scene, not feeling like you are meant to be in the whole gay scene (not community..there's a difference) and just feeling as if you don't HAVE to like EVERYTHING gay makes you homophobic..or at least internalized homophobic?
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    Aug 16, 2009 3:50 AM GMT
    Gay pride really doesn't appeal to me either.

    Some say it's bad PR for us gays. It's digusting etc..

    Others say that things like Marti Gras exist.. it's the same thing. Why can't gays have it too?

    I think it should be called something else. Just a crazy festival. Nothing to be proud of IMO. The only way I could see being proud of it would be because it's sort of sticking it to close minded biggots. Perhaps gay pride could be more noble and less epic.


    That being said, I am young and relatively ignorant so there will probably be somone here to refute everything I say. I'm cool with that.icon_cool.gif
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    Aug 16, 2009 4:02 AM GMT
    Inmate.......all that flamboyant stuff is there. But there is a whole lot more to Pride.

    First, even though you can't stand all that flamboyant crap (like me), it really is liberating to let go of that feeling at least for a few hours in your life and and let your hair down and "accept......"them".

    Second, there are hundreds of different groups that march. Grandparents, parents, sisters, brothers of gays, doctors, lawyers, policemen, religious groups, sports organizations and teams, people who belong to different trade/business clubs.............the list is endless.

    And its a thrilling to stand united with all of them. Thousands of people.

    And when there is the two minutes of silence to remember those who have died from AIDS, you can hear a pin drop. Many people are in tears.
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    Aug 16, 2009 1:51 PM GMT
    Yes, society has trained you well oh Padawan. Your words are proof of what you say.

    "I'm all for gay equality and gender identity"

    But you also say...

    "I generally don't like the idea of overly flamboyant guys and drag queens"

    Oh yes, Padawan. Society has carefully taught you well.
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    Aug 16, 2009 1:57 PM GMT
    You have to realize that being gay doesn't automatically free you from all of the expectations and tastes that you've developed over your life so far. For example, I've never been attracted to a woman in my life, and yet I was still uncomfortable the first time I saw two men kiss.

    Expose yourself to these things for a while and then you'll know if you really don't care for them, or if you're just uncomfortable because you're not used to them.
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    Aug 16, 2009 2:00 PM GMT
    I'm one of those people who have spent a lot of time over the past couple years truly trying to figure myself outand I've found that I display so many forms of self hate that its not even funny.My initial response to other african americans, My ideas and beliefs foreas gay people.

    I think I may actually have some minor homophobic tendencies which stem from the fact that I don't want to be identified as gay. Something about it still do this day, with boyfriend and all, bothers me. I worry about getting too close to my boyfriend in public. Won't even cuddle at a movie theatre until the lights go off. When I assume that someone thinks i'm gay without telling them sometimes it makes me very uncomfortable.

    Its very debilitating and I truly am trying to get past it. I thought that by being more open about it and telling people would change things, but I've found that the person you really need to convince to be ok with it first is yourself.

    I guess these very things that made me feel low for so long, I could never look at them as being anything but. I'll never be proud to be black and I'll never be proud to be gay.

    And though I defy some of the stereotypes and teach people to accept the ones I am guilty of, I think that part of me will take a long time to fade away. I wish I could be more outgoing like a lot of other gay people are.
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    Aug 16, 2009 2:17 PM GMT
    Halfstep said

    And though I defy some of the stereotypes and teach people to accept the ones I am guilty of, I think that part of me will take a long time to fade away. I wish I could be more outgoing like a lot of other gay people are.


    Ya, same here. I'm consciously trying to change that, and still in the process of doing so. A few years ago I was still in deep depression at being gay because I could not reconcile myself with the drag queens and thought that in order to be gay I had to be one. I know I know. I was a stupid teen with rampant hormones. icon_lol.gif

    Even today, I still have a tendency to distance myself from fellow asians who do the whole 'love you long time' shiz and the incredibly flamboyant gay guys. But the more I get to know people who are like that, it makes me realize being flamboyant or an empty-headed mail-order boi isn't really a bad thing. At all. LOL. They have their reasons. I may not be comfortable with what they do myself but I don't have the right to be sanctimonious about it either.

    I think it's a sort of defense mechanism from trying to destroy the stereotype myths. You know they aren't true, but every time you see someone who matches that to a T you find it somewhat disconcerting that there ARE people who match the stereotypes.

    I've come to realize the stereotyped behavior isn't always bad in itself. It's other people's perception of the stereotypes that makes it bad. I've been literally sucking up to the wrong crowd - the haters.
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    Aug 16, 2009 2:22 PM GMT
    inmate_6655321 saidOk so I was talking with a friend the other day and we got into the topic of gay pride. I told him that's not my scene and I generally don't like the idea of overly flamboyant guys and drag queens (I don't know why...but I sort of get wierded out by that) make me uncomfortable. He told me that I was "one of those gay guys that have internalized homophobia". I couldn't understand why. I'm all for gay equality and gender identity (and I'm not a republican lol) but I just think that those "overtly" gay events aren't for me. I'd honestly rather go to a concerts or hit some pool with friends. When I told my mom this (we have an awesome relationship and we can talk about anything...anything) she told me "well...it sounds to me like he's partially right. It doesn't mean you should totally embrace it, but you should be a little more tolerant to the idea". So I'm wondering, is not being too much into the gay scene, not feeling like you are meant to be in the whole gay scene (not community..there's a difference) and just feeling as if you don't HAVE to like EVERYTHING gay makes you homophobic..or at least internalized homophobic?


    ...remember, it was the "flamboyant guys" and the drag queens that fought back against the police at Stonewall in 1969, not the "tough muscle guys" or "straight-acting" guys....Every one of us owes these guys big time for finally saying, "enough's enough" and tearing down the closet door, once and for all (to paraphrase Harvey Milk)
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    Aug 16, 2009 2:26 PM GMT
    The fact is that most straight people would like nothing better than for gay people to go back into the closet and to be as jprichva wrote, essentially non-people.

    Halfstep wrote that even his own out existence makes him uncomfortable at times; subsequently he internalizes the homophobia that pervades society. We probably all do in some ways. I do it too, for example, in a careful check of the surroundings before I'll hold my spouse's hand. Straight people of the same race do not do this and probably don't even think about taking their mate's hand.

    Gay people have to work to overcome this pervasive, institutionalized homophobia in many areas (politics, personal life, etc) and Gay Pride, despite its campy silliness, helps to achieve this...if for no other reason than to collectively express, "We're here, we're queer, get used to it."



  • danisnotstr8

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    Aug 16, 2009 2:51 PM GMT
    TrowelMonger saidGay pride really doesn't appeal to me either.

    Some say it's bad PR for us gays. It's digusting etc..

    Others say that things like Marti Gras exist.. it's the same thing. Why can't gays have it too?

    I think it should be called something else. Just a crazy festival. Nothing to be proud of IMO. The only way I could see being proud of it would be because it's sort of sticking it to close minded biggots. Perhaps gay pride could be more noble and less epic.


    That being said, I am young and relatively ignorant so there will probably be somone here to refute everything I say. I'm cool with that.icon_cool.gif


    TrowelMonger, you are ANYTHING but ignorant. You are one of the most intelligent guys on this site.

    inmate, re: your OP:

    I used to think just like you. But then, in the past few years, I have realized that I actually did have "internalized homophobia." It's something I could only recognize in retrospect.

    Basically, I feared that people would judge me as a person if I was less "masculine." Part of my self-imposed "identity," then, included *NOT* associating with flamboyant/feminine guys...

    Then I realized that being "masculine" is being a gentleman, and being a gentleman is including.

    So, what about overtly "straight" events? Are you ok with them?
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    Aug 16, 2009 2:54 PM GMT
    dfrw saidThe fact is that most straight people would like nothing better than for gay people to go back into the closet and to be as jprichva wrote, essentially non-people.

    Halfstep wrote that even his own out existence makes him uncomfortable at times; subsequently he internalizes the homophobia that pervades society. We probably all do in some ways. I do it too, for example, in a careful check of the surroundings before I'll hold my spouse's hand. Straight people of the same race do not do this and probably don't even think about taking their mate's hand.

    Gay people have to work to overcome this pervasive, institutionalized homophobia in many areas (politics, personal life, etc) and Gay Pride, despite its campy silliness, helps to achieve this...if for no other reason than to collectively express, "We're here, we're queer, get used to it."





    I disagree that 'most' straight people would like us to go back into the closet.

    I think Pride, really, is more - now - about getting gay people to accept each other than it is about sending a message to the straight world. This site alone has ample evidence of the significant amounts of intolerance and prejudice that is wholly self-contained within the gay community. If it were about sending a message to straight people, we wouldn't have Pride celebrations in the gayest of the gay neighborhoods, we'd have it on main street.

    There are significant lines between acknowledgement, tolerance and acceptance. There is at least as much work, if not more, to do WITHIN the gay community to promote and spread tolerance and acceptance as there is with the straight world, we're just more accepting of treating each other like shit than we are with the same shit being perpetrated by straight people.
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    Aug 16, 2009 2:57 PM GMT
    i'm in the same exact boat as the OP. flamboyance and in-your-face-screaming-gayness in others just strikes me as obnoxious, attention starved, and uncomfortable to be around. gay pride, in my mind, undermines everything we're trying to do in civil rights battles, which requires we move away from being this scary unknown for most people, and mainstream into the commonly seen and unquestioned; people hate what they fear and they fear the unknown and different.... i've always thought that parades wherein we don plumes, thongs, and glitter, while waving dildos, will do nothing but enforce everyone else's negative feelings and sense of separateness. also, the very notion of 'gay pride' rings ridiculously in my ears, like 'black power.' i mean, we're all just people, and being born gay is like being born black, or blond, or tall, or short... there's nothing there to be necessarily prideful or, conversely, ashamed of. the more we deliberately set ourselves aside and apart and make a big counter-culture fuss over our differentness, the longer we're gonna have to wait for the hundreds of rights we're demanding at the same time, and the longer people will be legally allowed to fire us for being gay, or even brutally beat us up outside of the hate crime laws. i boycott the whole flaming mess.
  • danisnotstr8

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    Aug 16, 2009 3:01 PM GMT
    czarodziej saidi'm in the same exact boat as the OP. flamboyance and in-your-face-screaming-gayness in others just strikes me as obnoxious, attention starved, and uncomfortable to be around. gay pride, in my mind, undermines everything we're trying to do in civil rights battles, which requires we move away from being this scary unknown for most people, and mainstream into the commonly seen and unquestioned; people hate what they fear and they fear the unknown and different.... i've always thought that parades wherein we don plumes, thongs, and glitter, while waving dildos, will do nothing but enforce everyone else's negative feelings and sense of separateness. also, the very notion of 'gay pride' rings ridiculously in my ears, like 'black power.' i mean, we're all just people, and being born gay is like being born black, or blond, or tall, or short... there's nothing there to be necessarily prideful or, conversely, ashamed of. the more we deliberately set ourselves aside and apart and make a big counter-culture fuss over our differentness, the longer we're gonna have to wait for the hundreds of rights we're demanding at the same time, and the longer people will be legally allowed to fire us for being gay, or even brutally beat us up outside of the hate crime laws. i boycott the whole flaming mess.


    The role of the government is to enforce our civil rights.

    You think everyone should just conform to your own preconceived idea of masculinity? I think you judge people as poorly as those who vote against our rights. That's just unforgivable. Check your logic and get back to me.
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    Aug 16, 2009 3:04 PM GMT
    danisnotstr8 wrote, "then I realized that being 'masculine' is being a gentleman."

    Spot on. I think that some guys think that acting like a 'dude' makes them masculine and that their craigslist.org ad for sex is just a thing, but that dude act doesn't make them masculine, it just makes their own idea that there is something wrong with being homosexual, obvious.

    I think, "just be yourself and act like a gentleman (even in your interactions with individuals in which you have no interest) and you'll be all the more masculine for precisely that."
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    Aug 16, 2009 3:05 PM GMT
    czarodziej saidi'm in the same exact boat as the OP. flamboyance and in-your-face-screaming-gayness in others just strikes me as obnoxious, attention starved, and uncomfortable to be around. gay pride, in my mind, undermines everything we're trying to do in civil rights battles, which requires we move away from being this scary unknown for most people, and mainstream into the commonly seen and unquestioned; people hate what they fear and they fear the unknown and different.... i've always thought that parades wherein we don plumes, thongs, and glitter, while waving dildos, will do nothing but enforce everyone else's negative feelings and sense of separateness. also, the very notion of 'gay pride' rings ridiculously in my ears, like 'black power.' i mean, we're all just people, and being born gay is like being born black, or blond, or tall, or short... there's nothing there to be necessarily prideful or, conversely, ashamed of. the more we deliberately set ourselves aside and apart and make a big counter-culture fuss over our differentness, the longer we're gonna have to wait for the hundreds of rights we're demanding at the same time, and the longer people will be legally allowed to fire us for being gay, or even brutally beat us up outside of the hate crime laws. i boycott the whole flaming mess.


    Czar, this is a perfect example of gay homophobia. And I'm not trying to insult you. But the fight for gay rights has nothing to do with how flamboyant or slutty or dildo-waving we are. And as someone previously mentioned - have you ever been to Mardi Gras, where straight chicks flash their tits in exchange for beads?

    Rights are things that are SUPPOSED to be guaranteed because we are HUMAN BEINGS, not because the 'majority' looks at us and says "well, only if we're comfortable with who you are, who you sleep with, and how you dress in a parade."

    Gay Pride isn't about highlighting our differences, it's about celebrating our uniqueness and our individuality, just like everyone else on the planet is unique. To say that we are somehow supposed to act in a certain way in exchange for basic human rights is appalling.
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    Aug 16, 2009 3:06 PM GMT
    badmikeyt, we're going to have to agree to disagree on how straight people view homosexuals (the view is certainly changing, with more people, over time, but I wrote 'most', not 'all'), and I stand by it.

    However, I agree with what you say about the work that needs to be done in the gay community. There's plenty to go around on that front.
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    Aug 16, 2009 3:11 PM GMT
    badmikey, i agree totally- if our civil rights were as they should be, they wouldn't be up for majority vote.

    but because people, including government officials, are blinded by homophobia, that obvious truth isn't being seen by enough people, and our rights keep being brought up for votes, then shot down by expensive counter votes and petitions.... as long as the government bases these ongoings on popular and majority vote, whether in government chambers or in states' populations, "gay pride" will hold us back. argue it as idealistically as you will, but i'm a realist.

    and i'm not saying that effeminateness is something to suppress or hide, any more than is having dwarfism or down syndrome. people are who they are and we can't all be one way or another, and shouldn't have to be, just to fit society's norms. all i'm saying is that FLAMBOYANCE- that is, the flapping of it all in people faces just to make them uncomfortable and then power trip on their predictable reactions, is obnoxious and is holding us back.

    and as for the uniqueness-celebration thing, its BS, like the government saying its only ever engages in war to "spread democracy and free other peoples" lol. so, in a gay pride parade, those thousands of people are all being unique.... together? its separatist and the world isn't ready for our sexuality to be celebrated QUITE that way yet. as for women flashing their tits in public, that's different because 90% of the population LIKES that, and its not a celebration of the fact that they are unique in liking that, they just do it cause they can. we need to get to where we can enjoy our sexuality openly without shame or need to 'water down,' and without the desperate need to bedazzle and 'celebrate it' in order to somehow justify it to ourselves.
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    Aug 16, 2009 3:11 PM GMT
    It really does help to make society so much more aware of and hopefully more accepting of gays in the community. I was walking around in a local shopping area this weekend with a date and, for some reason, was keenly aware of the number of heterosexuals couples that were walking holding hands or embraced and thinking, why would I/we feel uncomfortable doing the same. Why shouldn't I hold the hand of someone I enjoy being with? In an area that is accepting of gays but probably as uncomfortable with two same sex persons showing appropriate affection. Pride, in my opinion, has moved us ahead in many ways but also re-enforces the stereotypes that remain. Both sides can certainly be argued, but I think only time can change perceptions and the comfort level both sides have with any issue. I think the hope is that the in your face, over the top, flamboyant celebration raises the awareness and makes the everyday affection by same sex couples much more accepting and less uncomfortable for society as a whole.
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    Aug 16, 2009 3:12 PM GMT


    hmmm...gay is pretty pandemographic - men and women in all walks of life, races and cultures.

    It's fine to not relate to each others' 'group'. LOL, we can easily see gay anarchists not being particularly fond of gay politicians. We've also seen flamboyant gays and conservative ones (read as fem and butch if you prefer) openly criticizing each other.

    The trick is to accept each others' groups. This happens at Pride. Gays that normally don't usually overly associate with each other come together and demonstrate a solidarity and. like the rainbow symbol indicates, show that many different kinds of people with this one thing in common can assemble together to celebrate it all its forms.


    -us guys
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    Aug 16, 2009 3:13 PM GMT
    czarodziej saidbadmikey, i agree totally- if our civil rights were as they should be, they wouldn't be up for majority vote.

    but because people, including government officials, are blinded by homophobia, that obvious truth isn't being seen by enough people, and our rights keep being brought up for votes, then shot down by expensive counter votes and petitions.... as long as the government bases these ongoings on popular and majority vote, whether in government chambers or in states' populations, "gay pride" will hold us back. argue it as idealistically as you will, but i'm a realist.

    and i'm not saying that effeminateness is something to suppress or hide, any more than is having dwarfism or down syndrome. people are who they are and we can't all be one way or another, and shouldn't have to be, just to fit society's norms. all i'm saying is that FLAMBOYANCE- that is, the flapping of it all in people faces just to make them uncomfortable and then power trip on their predictable reactions, is obnoxious and is holding us back.



    Understood. But that's how some people are. And I will be the last person to tell them to suppress who they are for the sake of fake tolerance. Being accepted for who you aren't, in my book, is far worse than being hated for who you actually are.
  • HndsmKansan

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    Aug 16, 2009 3:19 PM GMT
    I go about my business... and participate and socialize where comfortable and don't where I'm not.

    If you don't want to mess with "gay pride" events, don't. If I'm a member of a college fraternity (and I was) does that mean that I want to booze it up and get bombed (since my frat bros do?) Absolutely not. I didn't do much of that anyway.. was I somehow "fraternity phobic"? Get a grip! I do my own thing.

    Now having said that, if our fraternity had an event that showed solidarity in a positive vein, I would feel I should participate... I guess this discussion goes goes ways.

    As far as "gay pride". I'd want to go and see whats up if I were in a larger city.... but I doubt if it would be an annual event. I have other things to do.
    Embrace it? I doubt it.. Avoid it? Not at all.
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    Aug 16, 2009 3:20 PM GMT
    eb925guy saidIt really does help to make society so much more aware of and hopefully more accepting of gays in the community. I was walking around in a local shopping area this weekend with a date and, for some reason, was keenly aware of the number of heterosexuals couples that were walking holding hands or embraced and thinking, why would I/we feel uncomfortable doing the same. Why shouldn't I hold the hand of someone I enjoy being with? In an area that is accepting of gays but probably as uncomfortable with two same sex persons showing appropriate affection. Pride, in my opinion, has moved us ahead in many ways but also re-enforces the stereotypes that remain. Both sides can certainly be argued, but I think only time can change perceptions and the comfort level both sides have with any issue. I think the hope is that the in your face, over the top, flamboyant celebration raises the awareness and makes the everyday affection by same sex couples much more accepting and less uncomfortable for society as a whole.


    Little gestures like holding your mate's hand are also what's needed. It is another refusal to go back into a closet or be a non-person.
  • HndsmKansan

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    Aug 16, 2009 3:23 PM GMT
    meninlove said

    hmmm...gay is pretty pandemographic - men and women in all walks of life, races and cultures.

    The trick is to accept each others' groups. This happens at Pride. Gays that normally don't usually overly associate with each other come together and demonstrate a solidarity and. like the rainbow symbol indicates, show that many different kinds of people with this one thing in common can assemble together to celebrate it all its forms.


    -us guys


    I would agree with Doug and Bill's assessment. I do think Pride is all about "acceptance"..... but it doesn't mean if you don't participate, one isn't accepting... it may also have to do with a guys personality. "Inmate" here, may not be comfortable around alot of people.
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    Aug 16, 2009 3:23 PM GMT
    being gay is not a lifestyle or the the need to strut in a sequined thong with a dildo tied to your forehead down mainstreet- its simply the attraction to ones own sex. nothing more than that, save what WE artificially make it. maybe this is why so many rednecks, living everywhere in this country that we're not (outside of the cities), think its a 'lifestyle choice,' something i've always railed against. i'm starting to see that in a sense, it is; being gay isn't a choice, and its nothing to make a fuss over one way or another. seeing that is a bit of enlightenment i think, like when kids really don't notice skin color, and adults are astounded that its such a non-issue for them. however, being Gay with the capital G that everyone gives it, is. its a culture we've created for ourselves like a big security blanket to wrap ourselves in- it all boils down to insecurities being hidden with bravado and flamboyance. when we no longer think we need the cultural security blanket, is the day we'll have the power to demand and get our rights.

    and eb925guy, it may help for the few metropolitan people you've talked to, who probably have gay best friends, but i've NEVER heard a normal person say "oh yeah, that gay pride thing last weekend was FABULOUS- so colorful and shiney- so BRAVE... i think we should totally let them all marry. i've seen the light"
    i agree utterly with dfrw: "Little gestures like holding your mate's hand are also what's needed. It is another refusal to go back into a closet or be a non-person."
    its mainstreaming that we need, by taking away the scarily exotic, artificial differentness of it all, and show people that love is love, regardless of what sex its directed at. its by showing that COMMONALITY, and that alone, that we'll get our rights.

    lol
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    Aug 16, 2009 3:25 PM GMT
    They haven't said it in areas that don't have gay pride either. ;-)