yeah um, that poster took the notion of positive thinking a wee bit too far. I guess he doesn't fully understand the implications to unprotected sex even while positive.
At this point, though, there's nothing to be gained by trying to convince the guy that he ought to be miserable. It's very likely that his joy will be short-lived (for lots of reasons), so let it last as long as it can last. I just hope the poster and his partner are both seeking medical treatment!
IMO, the poz.com posters who essentially said "welcome to the forums... we'll be here when you need us" had the right idea.
I thought initially it was being positive in his outlook, but the 'trying to catch it for a year' thing is absolutely stupid (and the rationale, since his partner could catch a separate strain and pass that on too, right?)
Basically, it was an adolescent thing he did. Unfortunately, he will regret his actions as he mature into adulthood.
Pretty sad and tragic, there has obviously been a lacking of a positive adult role model in his life. That bit of hope which seeds those long term hopes and dreams of a happy healthy life with that one special spouse/partner. He seems to think that the now is the only thing he has.
Speechless here. Does this nitwit understand that he may never, and I mean NEVER, be able to find a LTR because of this? Those of us poz guys that have found a partner are the lucky ones...
USArmyMutt saidI'm sure he'll be real happy 'living his life' when he cant get medical coverage or pay for his bills.
Tough getting medical coverage when you have HIV as a preexisting medical condition. Even Social Security is reluctant to grant Medicare disability status to HIV now, and what would he have paid into SSI at 19?
Yet an opportunistic disease could take him at any time. Yes, persons with HIV are living longer now, but as an average. You can catch something like PML (a brain virus) at any time, and it's 100% fatal and fairly quick. That's what took my late partner from me without warning, though he'd been doing great with his HIV until those last few months.
Yeah, tell me how wonderful HIV is. And why I spend all my spare time and money fighting it, as my current partner does. I can only hope this is some sick joke.
Its the reality out there men....It a way to get everything for free....Best of health care, housing, disability check....ect...ect....I know guys that did it to live of the government!!
I eat right, exercise and take care of myself because I want to have abundant energy and peace of mind to pursue the things i want to do.
I know guys who are unfortunately HIV poz. The medicines take a toll on their moods and energy levels. They need to constantly have blood tests and doctor visits to keep themselves healthy.
The current HIV meds are relatively new. Nobody knows yet the damage to the body from these meds. .....on your liver, heart etc. Plus, they have to take more medicine to counteract the side affects of the HIV meds.......
All that stuff going into your system is probably like driving a car with the emergency break on.......not exactly what a "real jock" wants.
But intentionally getting HIV is a concept I simply cannot fathom.
Yes, I've heard even around here there are parties where HIV+ guys will meet HIV- guys at clubs who want to get infected, and has an orgy in attempt to get it. It's really disgusting and terrifying.
HndsmKansan saidIts a pretty odd discussion there... the only comparison I have, and I know it sounds pathetic, is a woman trying to get pregnant...
"he's been trying to get it for over a year now......".
How very sad indeed. I wonder how he will feel at 30?
My god... what an idiot. This guy's got the right idea, sounds like a desperate attempt to hold on to his bf. When his bf realizes what a nut job he is and leaves him he will definitely regret it. Being poz doesn't mean you can have all the unprotected sex you want with no other consequences. HIV is not the only STD. I didn't know that "chasers" actually existed.
It isn't anything new sadly. There is a LARGE community of bug chasers both gay and straight; both male and female. These people take perversion to a sadistic level that allows all ends (pleasure only) to be justified by the means and it is a very, VERY large insult to every person involved in any way to helping those with HIV/AIDS.
Well the damn thing for me is that my partner & I exert a great deal of our effort, and quite frankly money, to PREVENT the spread of HIV. We are both AIDS widowers, and this story, if true, is a big slap in the face for us.
It defies what we are trying to do: to keep anyone from contracting HIV, and to help extend the lives, and the quality of life, of those who have HIV, along with their families. We both do this every day, and I can't express here my disgust that anyone would ever do this, or even suggest it.
When you have your partner literally die in your arms of AIDS, as mine did, then you will understand my revulsion at this concept. I'm sorry, but I'm very disturbed by this.
Pinny saidIt isn't anything new sadly. There is a LARGE community of bug chasers both gay and straight; both male and female. These people take perversion to a sadistic level that allows all ends (pleasure only) to be justified by the means and it is a very, VERY large insult to every person involved in any way to helping those with HIV/AIDS.
I don't think the motivation for bug chasing is sadism. It seems to be more about reaching a new level of sexual freedom - where there is no longer any anxiety about the consequences of sexual decisions.
What bothers me about it is that he thinks he can now have sex with others ( i am assuming are HIV+) without worries of being safe. Even if the other half is poz, one has to be careful not to inflect oneself or others with a different strain, raise your viral count, become resistant to medication options, or have your strain mutate into what the news calls the 'supervirus".
Pinny saidIt isn't anything new sadly. There is a LARGE community of bug chasers both gay and straight; both male and female. These people take perversion to a sadistic level that allows all ends (pleasure only) to be justified by the means and it is a very, VERY large insult to every person involved in any way to helping those with HIV/AIDS.
I don't think the motivation for bug chasing is sadism. It seems to be more about reaching a new level of sexual freedom - where there is no longer any anxiety about the consequences of sexual decisions.
For this kid(a name I hate to be called, but he seems to fit it nicely) it seems like a combination of those factors plus the attraction of having a "little bit of hector" living in him. I call that a delusion.
We had another topic on this about young men going to "bug parties" for the sole purpose of getting infected. I some starnge way they think this way they can forget about condoms and have sex with strangers. How truly sad!! This gives the rest of society reasons NOT to donate toward HIV and AIDS research and also makes the prop8 folks feel with this menality in the gay community they should never be given the same rights as hetero couples. Talk about setting things back 20 yrs!!
Not to mention it is a virus and super strains will develop that we will have no meds for!! Again this is so truly sad. Should we begin quilting again!!???
well, so maybe the guy is joking or a joke, just putting that up in a forum of poz. is silly. Now let's say it is true, and for those whom like to play unsafe or are poz. and play unsafe. Most never think of these other factors....here...
If you become Poz. and if you have to take meds. leads to possible stroke risks, heart attacks, and or high blood pressure along with risking factors of HPV virus incurable in men's butt holes.
AND...hep C and warts, on the face, the butt. Skin rashes that are incurable...almost wants you to be not sleeping around.
Then you have med costs not one med but 8 meds, each could range without insurance $1250. for a 3 month supply of one med, times that by 8.
Then you need testosterone to keep yourself being balanced as a man.
Then doctor visits 4 times a year, to keep records. Then eye doctors, then your teeth go soft and need lots of work and money. Then in the end, you have spent thousands of dollars and where do you actually end up?
6 feet down. You happy now that you are poz.???????? LOL
This is really very disturbing. After reading some of the follow-up comments it seems like the two boys have little to no clue what HIV and AIDS is really about. They didn't know that millions of people have died from the disease or what CD4 or VL means, and mistakenly thought it was similar to cancer. I'm appalled that whomever helped them diagnose the disease didn't explain any of this to them. It's unsettling that despite extensive educational efforts about the disease in the past few decades, there are people who are still ignorant about it. It makes me wonder if we are doing enough to prevent the spreading of HIV. My heart really goes out to these two 19 year olds, who not only had to go through being kicked out by their families, but probably because of ignorance will likely unnecessarily suffer through the tribulations of many who have come before them for many years to come.
The mind is funny this way. It can react in strange ways if it is ill informed or confused. Some gay men think exactly what this young pos seemed to think: that contracting HIV is inevitable so why wait? It's more sad than disturbing because as he grows, information will present itself, some that may reveal the gravity of his mistake. IT WILL BE A HARD HIT, but he will find peace in the end.
styrgan saidI don't think the motivation for bug chasing is sadism. It seems to be more about reaching a new level of sexual freedom - where there is no longer any anxiety about the consequences of sexual decisions.
Sadism, at the root, is a search for pleasure at all costs, even the partners. Bug chasing has become a sadistic sexual practice. They get a "thrill" and pleasure out of being "infected" or the scare of possibly being "poisoned by the needle".
The person in question is delusional. I don't see the corollary between sexual freedom and contracting the virus; however elaborating more on it (aside from the banal comment the actual poster made about not having to worry or having a piece of his BF in him) could clarify my critique. People with spouses in the military don't join the military to be sexually freer, nor do people with lovers in jail commit a crime to join them in jail. Would you try to get cancer if your bf/husband had it so that you two were on a different level together?
I am not trying to say that "sexual freedom" is some ignoratio elenchi; however we must be careful before excuses things on the basis of sexual freedom which takes us down a slippery slope of human naturalistic fallacies.
After studying and learning so much after my diagnosis in may I have learned that the younger generation such as this is being mislead somewhat.
Most of us remember back in the 80's and the thousands and millions of people dying and what aids "looked like". Due to alot of hardwork and technology we have superior drugs compared to then. In those days you were given months to live and they told you that upon diagnosis.
Upon being diagnosed now you are told that its ok, its not a death sentence and with atripla, you only have to take 1 pill a day!! I was told that its even easier than having diabetes!!
I think we are seeing the repercussions from this attitude now in our younger generation. Aids to them is no longer a death sentence, its not even explained to them to be as severe as diabetes...just take one pill a day and thats all you have to do...so why would they care if they get it? Because they are not being told the whole story.
This is a double edged sword...we have come so far and have saved so many lives with these medications but because of this no one is taking this disease as serious as it needs to be...why? cuz people arent dying like they were.
I dont know what the answer is, better information, and etc I guess, especially to the younger generation. It breaks my heart that young guys like this have such a long life ahead of them and they will have to spend it dealing with something that could and should've been prevented.
A lot of you are probing the bug chaser trying to dig deeper, but I think his initial reason is the truthful answer. He simply wants MORE SEXUAL FREEDOM. Since when is optimal health and sexual freedom interchangeable? It's gotta be the tube, magazine covers, and billboards make sex look like the end, but it isn't, just part of a happy life.
I've seen attitudes like that for almost 20 years with a lot of gay men, regardless of age. I think it's an excuse to commit suicide.
There are so many gay men who come out thinking that if they move to this city or this community they are going to find unconditional acceptance and love among other gay men. They go to gay groups, clubs, etc., and while they might find this amazing feeling of closeness at first, the minute you aren't the new guy anymore, even though the gay community (big picture here) makes up next to nothing in terms of the percentages of the population, we throw each other out so fast that we don't even think about it. So then it happens - you figure it out - you've been lied to by all these (well meaning) people who convinced you to come out - now you go to groups or events or pride and nobody gives a shit, nobody looks at you or will even carry on a conversation unless you're someone they've never met before or unless you have something they want. It becomes very clear that this is going to be a very long life with nobody in it. And I ask you - would YOU want this?
I'm not saying that this is an okay thing to do (go out and try to get HIV) but I can certainly see how this thought process works. Being gay is more depressing right now than ever - we have this illusion that we are all going to be able to get married someday (but hardly anyone is even meeting anyone that has the ability to sustain a relationship or even find anyone to begin with); we have this illusion that there are so many gay men out there to choose from but after logging off we realize that this is nationwide (if not worldwide) and locally, no matter how big or small a town you are in, whatcha got around you is pretty much what you're stuck with, and if you don't like it, you're looking at moving to new cities every 2 years or so - what kind of life is that? Also fewer and fewer guys are coming out. They simply hide online now without saying a word to anyone, then watch the back and forth in the comments and say to themselves 'there is no way in hell I am going to become part of this in real life' and guess what? Our already tiny selection base became that much smaller. Now we have a whole new generation of gay men who are gay as long as they're online, and then say nothing and do nothing outside of that. As we know from history, one can only live so long like this - but the internet has given many the power to do this for as long as he can stand, usually until addiction or suicide occurs. Both cases usually happen when the person is completely isolated, has no real life friends who know the truth, and at some point, 3 a.m. comes around and there is nobody to run to for help. We've all become so consumed with our own individual problems that we don't notice there are so many other gay men who are in big trouble, but if they don't say anything and we don't listen, there's nothing we can do.
HIV positive guys still need to be careful about having unprotected sex, so they don't catch a drug-restistant strain of the virus or other STDs. So, very little sexual freedom gained by contracting the virus.
Meds aren't the only reason people are living much longer these days. First of all, early diagnosis has become the norm. Even untreated, HIV usually takes 7-10 years from infection to AIDS. What we remember from the 80s and 90s were people that discovered they were sick only once they had already developed AIDS. Furthermore, the drugs that were given at the time were highly toxic.
It is a more manageable disease today, but the meds still have a lot of dangerous side effects and can cause heart attacks, strokes, changes in fat distribution, etc., so it's not as easy as people make it seem.
One of the mistakes I do feel the older generation is making is assuming HIV will remain a lifelong disease. It still is today, but hopefully in the upcoming decade or so a cure will be found. There's a lot of new research pointing to ways of curing HIV. Hopefully some of it will pan out.
REDBULL, that YouTube link you posted on the site got me choked up. So deep, creepy, sad, and moving all at once. Those guys in the forum infuriated me so much, I wanted to curse them the hell out.
The gentleman interviewed in the article states, "It's about freedom... What else can happen to us after this? You can fuck whoever you want, fuck as much as you want, and nothing worse can happen to you. Nothing bad can happen after you get HIV." He admits that for him chasing is mostly about doing something counter-cultural.
The article continues:
"For some, the chase is a pragmatic move. They see HIV infection as inevitable because of their unsafe sex or needle sharing, so they decide to take control of the situation and infect themselves. It's empowering. They're no longer victims waiting to be infected; rather they are in charge of their own fates."
Some of these guys view being positive as the only way to really be a part of a "community."
....
Dr. Bob Cabaj, director of behavioral-health services for San Francisco County and past president of both the Gay and Lesbian Medical Association and the Association of Gay and Lesbian Psychiatrists. Cabaj (pronounced suh-bye) calls bug chasing "a real phenomenon." Some bug chasers are more likely to have a defeatist attitude, to think they'll eventually get HIV anyway, whereas others are more likely to add the element of eroticizing HIV, Cabaj says: "For kids who have had a really hard time fitting in or being accepted, this becomes like a fraternity."
....
"There is virtually no research on people who intentionally seek HIV," he says, but he notes that several studies have shown a growing complacency among gay men and the population in general about the risk of HIV and a misconception that HIV infection is completely manageable.
styrgan saidI don't think the motivation for bug chasing is sadism. It seems to be more about reaching a new level of sexual freedom - where there is no longer any anxiety about the consequences of sexual decisions.
Sadism, at the root, is a search for pleasure at all costs, even the partners. Bug chasing has become a sadistic sexual practice. They get a "thrill" and pleasure out of being "infected" or the scare of possibly being "poisoned by the needle".
The person in question is delusional. I don't see the corollary between sexual freedom and contracting the virus; however elaborating more on it (aside from the banal comment the actual poster made about not having to worry or having a piece of his BF in him) could clarify my critique. People with spouses in the military don't join the military to be sexually freer, nor do people with lovers in jail commit a crime to join them in jail. Would you try to get cancer if your bf/husband had it so that you two were on a different level together?
I am not trying to say that "sexual freedom" is some ignoratio elenchi; however we must be careful before excuses things on the basis of sexual freedom which takes us down a slippery slope of human naturalistic fallacies.
For starters, I disagree with your definition of sadism. Sadism is specifically about obtaining pleasure or enjoyment from the infliction of or experiencing of pain. If two people are consenting to that pleasure, there is not an "expense" - except in this case, where there is a cost to society.
However, I disagree that bugchasing is a sadistic practice in general - because these men are not intentionally seeking pain. Rather, the majority are convincing themselves that contracting HIV is not an enormous deal. The thrill that they obtain, I would argue is not about the actual infection, but about the perception that the practice of not being safe is rebellious and non-conventional.
I want to be clear. I am not attempting to justify these positions or experiences. I happen to agree with you that many of these guys have deluded themselves into believing that HIV is not a big deal. However, deluding yourself does not automatically make you delusional. Anyone who has read a good forum debate on here thinks that many of our friends here have "deluded" themselves into thinking one thing or another. Deluding yourself on issues of certain importance is a matter of basic social psychology. It's called "belief perseverance" and it's way more common than you think.
I also understand the examples you have quoted, but none of them deal with an actual component of sex - particularly one that gay men have been relentlessly told that they will obtain by their government, the media, and their peers. It's not hard to understand why some lost souls have taken that message to its logical conclusion.
I hope the article I quoted above helps you get the "sexual freedom" component of the argument. I think it's a poor argument because in addition to an STD like AIDS, there are various other sexually transmitted infections that are making a comeback. I don't think that being converted buys you any sort of freedom from those. Nor does it mean that you cannot become infected with a different strain of HIV and intensely complicate your life even more. However, the initial change in status has already occurred, and I understand why that is considered liberating.
I have very mixed feelings on the issue, and I usually do argue for sexual freedom without condition. However, when I consider the financial implications for our health care system and the ultimate social effect on the community, I have trouble supporting such an unconditional position.
GuiltyGear said What about the empowerment of staying neg and belonging to that "community"?
..........................................
I imagine that if you felt you belonged as a part of the gay community, you would not be taking drastic and borderline insane actions like seeking out potentially life-threatening conditions.
My initial question was more of a statement in question form, like "What's wrong with being negative and being empowered BY THAT?" I asked it, but implied that there is zilch wrong with it, since we both fit in that category and I consider negatives who fight to stay negative as part of a community that is not necessarily the whole gay community. The gay community is made up of many communities like bugchasers, big black guys, and guys who wear huge sunglasses.
GuiltyGear saidWell then don't talk to me then! grrrrr.
My initial question was more of a statement in question form, like "What's wrong with being negative and being empowered BY THAT?" I asked it, but implied that there is zilch wrong with it, since we both fit in that category and I consider negatives who fight to stay negative as part of a community that is not necessarily the whole gay community. The gay community is made up of many communities like bugchasers, big black guys, and guys who wear huge sunglasses.
There is obviously nothing wrong with being "empowered" by being negative - except of course if you actually somehow manage down the road to become converted.
As my response indicates though, I don't think it is possible to separate out a "negative" community from the gay community because of the amount of discrimination positive men encounter. A community can rarely survive by defining itself as an absence of something; rather, we seek out community for a sense of belonging or familiarity in the face of social inequities. I can see no reason for us to require such a community. I mean, maybe things are different in Oklahoma, or wherever you're from GG, but here in New York, we don't have any support groups for negative guys.
Nor would I argue that "guys with big sunglasses" would constitute a community.
dantoujours saidThere's something about those two that seems... fishy. Very fishy.
Fishey or not. There are "bug parties"- they do exist, and alot of young men purposefully go out to these parties to get infected!!!??!! The asshole giving to them is called the "gift giver." I don't think too many sane poz men would do this to uninformed young men!!
tylerchadwick saidYes, I've heard even around here there are parties where HIV+ guys will meet HIV- guys at clubs who want to get infected, and has an orgy in attempt to get it. It's really disgusting and terrifying.
That's really fucked up. I've heard about so-called "chasers" and "gift-giving", but damn...the fact that anyone would want to become infected/infect others is a very frightening thought indeed.
Fine. If that is the attitude, I will stop right now raising money for AIDS research. I will stop doing what I have been doing for 20+ years. I will stop giving time and money. If that is the attitude of the young, fuck em. More likely them than me. I will most likely will not turn positive, after 20+ plus years of safe sex. If that is how the kids feel, fuck em. Let them re-live the the horror of 1982-90. When a friend died every week. Fuck em. Have fun, kid.
This is why I hate so-called intellectuals and eggheads. They can see a guy that wants to fuck enough guys until he turns positive, and they call that "empowerment". Empowerment?
Empowerment? How does that empower him? So that he does not have to be responsible anymore? That his irresponsiblity can endanger others? That he is free to give a death sentence to someone else? Is that what empowerment means?
I thought empowerment meant you had the opportunity to create the life you wanted. That you had the opportunity to make a life that you wanted free of social bonds and social status and your place in life. I thought it meant if you were born poor you could rise above your social situation and rise to where ever your skills and smarts could take you. A poor kid, through smarts and schooling and wits, could rise above his given situation and better himself.
Is it now, infect yourself, and you are empowered? Is that now the definition of empowerment?
If that is true.....count me out. 20 something years of fighting AIDS. Count me out. Let this next generation fight it's own battles. I fought the good fight in time and money. I will never give another cent to an AIDS cause nor will I give an hour of my time. Let the kids see what it is like back in the day. If they now see AIDS as being like herpes, fine. Have at it, kids.
SFSurfer saidThis is why I hate so-called intellectuals and eggheads. They can see a guy that wants to fuck enough guys until he turns positive, and they call that "empowerment". Empowerment?
You'd be hard press to find "intellectual"/academic people ever speaking about empowerment through contraction or conversion. While Styrgan's RollingStones article is enlightening on his view point, it isn't at all the consensus of the "egghead" community.
dantoujours saidThere's something about those two that seems... fishy. Very fishy.
Fishey or not. There are "bug parties"- they do exist, and alot of young men purposefully go out to these parties to get infected!!!??!! The asshole giving to them is called the "gift giver." I don't think too many sane poz men would do this to uninformed young men!!
Your last statement came up several weeks ago in a similar post. I took the line that the HIV poz should bear some responsibility. Practically everyone else opined that such a person bears no responsibility. I wish I could find the link. And the fact that there are bug chasing parties I think give lie to your opinion that there are not too many sane poz guys who would do this.
Seems to me that we have reached such a permissiveness in our community once again- that anything goes for the momentary pleasure
You know whats even more fucked up? There are people who take the idea of "gift giving" one step further. There are guys that will identify as neg but really are poz and know it.
They purposely target bb parties that are advertising for neg guys only and will purposely give their "gift" to these guys who are assuming everyone who knows their current status is being truthful about it.
These "givers" actually get off on the idea of what they are doing...
I think you can go to bareback.com and read these fantasy stories of that scenario being played out. But there are people who actually do this... at least you have to assume it.
SFSurfer saidThis is why I hate so-called intellectuals and eggheads. They can see a guy that wants to fuck enough guys until he turns positive, and they call that "empowerment". Empowerment?
You'd be hard press to find "intellectual"/academic people ever speaking about empowerment through contraction or conversion. While Styrgan's RollingStones article is enlightening on his view point, it isn't at all the consensus of the "egghead" community.
...again, not my viewpoint.
I have already pointed out precisely where I disagree with the bugchaser in the article.
And to answer sfsurfer, if he had read the article, he would realize that these men view contracting HIV as empowering because they feel they are taking the inevitable into their own hands.
Yeah... that post might seem fishy but as others said..... their are people like this out there. Anyone watch(ed) QAF?
This stuff is just frighting. It really puts me off from having sex. You can never truly trust anyone these days because some folks get off at infecting others...
How will a 19 year old be able to pay around $14k a year to buy medication?
For those of you that donate money please don't stop because of this. There are people out there that got infected unintentionally.
Probably logical in the tiny little tunnels of his mind. After all, health care reform is coming and Uncle Sucker will pay his bills. At least that's what I'm told. Lol.
Has anyone figured out what psychological condition bug chasers have? Whatever it is, these guys need some major evaluation and mental help. Noone my age that gets it that i have met wants it. wtf is wrong with these guys?
............................................. They seem to have confused caution and responsibility with fear. So rather than to exercise safety, they actively seek infection, well not really, they just live a risky life in spite of the threat. I think it's their way of revolting against being controlled by any entity, which is stupid. A happy life is incomplete without some element of control.The obsession to live without boundaries has ended many a life. I guess these Bug Chasers wouldn't agree with that premise. Especially considering that HIV/AIDS isn't the only STD that is lethal, I don't understand these guys.
You have got to be kidding with this forum. Well if he's thrilled hopefully he plays with other positive guys and doesn't lie and knowing spread it around like a sprinkler.
I'm also nineteen and I can't imagine how he came up with the decision to contract the virus...I would never want to purposely destroy my life like that.
styrgan saidI have already pointed out precisely where I disagree with the bugchaser in the article.
Agreed; however the quoted portion of your previous post was angled at just giving you credit for posting the article not insinuating nor claiming that you agreed which is easily refuted by scrolling up by other readers.
KyleAD saidHas anyone figured out what psychological condition bug chasers have? Whatever it is, these guys need some major evaluation and mental help.
styrgan saidI have already pointed out precisely where I disagree with the bugchaser in the article.
Agreed; however the quoted portion of your previous post was angled at just giving you credit for posting the article not insinuating nor claiming that you agreed which is easily refuted by scrolling up by other readers.
My initial question was more of a statement in question form, like "What's wrong with being negative and being empowered BY THAT?" I asked it, but implied that there is zilch wrong with it, since we both fit in that category and I consider negatives who fight to stay negative as part of a community that is not necessarily the whole gay community. The gay community is made up of many communities like bugchasers, big black guys, and guys who wear huge sunglasses.
