Steriods and strength training

  • MikemikeMike

    Posts: 6932

    Aug 21, 2009 6:57 PM GMT
    I wish Jim the best but it's a well known fact that steroids increase muscle and also your internal organs.icon_idea.gif JUST SAY NO!icon_cool.gif


    Aug. 20) -- Jim Murphy, 29, might not even be alive right now. But thanks to a 2007 heart transplant, he has bounced back from a dangerous health crisis and plans to compete Saturday in the Massachusetts State Strongman Championship, a contest he won three times before heart disease set in.
    The Boston Globe chronicles how Murphy has triumphed over a condition that almost ended his days as an athlete.
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    Suzanne Kreiter, Boston Globe / Landov
    Jim Murphy works out at a gym in Everett, Mass. Two years after receiving a heart transplant, he hopes to win the Massachusetts State Strongman Championship, a contest he won three times before his 2005 diagnosis with congestive heart failure.

    In 2005, Murphy was preparing for a strongman competition in Las Vegas when he got winded doing a simple chore for a friend. Later that year, he began feeling dizzy and out of breath. When he went for tests, doctors told him he may have had at least one heart attack. His heart was enlarged, had a huge blood clot and was failing.
    So they put him on medication and installed a pacemaker. But in 2007, Murphy's pacemaker quit, and his kidneys and lungs began to fail. Doctors put him on a list to receive a heart transplant. Days later, he got the news that he would receive the heart of a young man who had been killed in a car accident.
    Murphy was back lifting weights within three months after the surgery. "It's like nothing ever happened to me," Murphy said. But he can't drink alcohol or eat salt, and he must take anti-rejection drugs for the rest of this life.
    His doctors say he's now in perfect health. But it's unclear how long that will last because scientists don't have much data on how long transplanted hearts last.
    Murphy plans to marry in August 2010, and he hopes to win his strongman title back. He is preparing to compete in the state strongman championship Saturday, but if he loses, defeat probably won't sting like it once did.
    "It's a miracle, really," he said. "I shouldn't even be here.’"
  • UFJocknerd

    Posts: 392

    Aug 21, 2009 9:47 PM GMT
    Use vs. abuse.

    Not saying roids have no consequences (my bro's friend recently died at 35 from his second heart attack after over a decade of steroid abuse). but the idea that any use will cause severe cardiomyopathy is not supported by research, and is a bit akin to the anti-pot folks who say that one joint will make you eat your baby while burning a flag and hating America.
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    Aug 22, 2009 9:47 AM GMT
    You do drugs and you pay the price. Coke, extasy, roids. You play the game and you win or lose. I hate to see someone I know lose due to their choice, but you play the game. It is the choice of the individual. Sorry. I hate to lose a friend. But people make choices. Maybe it will teach younger guys not to play with drugs that will kill you. Kids today think they can play with drugs, because they are not heroin or crack. But you die the same. Dead is dead. One heartbeat away from dying. And no one will remember you. The friends that you did drugs with will go on to whatever liife holds for them. And 10-15 years from now, they will say, oh yeah, I remember him. He was a really fun guy. He overdosed. That was so sad. And then they will go shopping for a TV at WalMart. Life goes on. Without you.
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    Aug 22, 2009 10:07 AM GMT
    UF- Everything has consequences. Speed anything up, and the body will respond. Maybe in the short term it will respond in the way you want, but in the long run? You not only speed up muscle you speed up any cancer cells in the body. Everything gets a boost. Everything gets pushed to hyper drive. Roids are an equal opportunity drug. If you have cancer cells, they get a boost, just like the muscle cells get a boost.

    I have watched so many friends that did roids die, at 30 and 28 and 40 from Cancer, and so many other diseases. It still amazes me that guys do them. Look good for 5 years, then suffer the effects.

    But I do not care. I can't control the world. People do what they will do.
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    Aug 22, 2009 10:21 AM GMT
    Not saying roids have no consequences (my bro's friend recently died at 35 from his second heart attack after over a decade of steroid abuse). but the idea that any use will cause severe cardiomyopathy is not supported by research, and is a bit akin to the anti-pot folks who say that one joint will make you eat your baby while burning a flag and hating America..


    I guess he did died from being 35yo. That makes sense. Healthy guys just die. Not supported by research. Why, then, if he was an otherwise healthy guy, did he die? At 35? History of heart disease in his family?
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    Aug 22, 2009 12:04 PM GMT
    UFJocknerd saidUse vs. abuse.

    Not saying roids have no consequences (my bro's friend recently died at 35 from his second heart attack after over a decade of steroid abuse). but the idea that any use will cause severe cardiomyopathy is not supported by research, and is a bit akin to the anti-pot folks who say that one joint will make you eat your baby while burning a flag and hating America.



    There are no long term studies on the effects of anabolic steroids and the heart.
    To give someone anabolic steroids for the purpose of a study is considered unethical. There is no research that proves anabolic steroids cause myocardial infarctions or cardiomyopathy. These are two different problems and both can result in death.
    There are multiple anecdotal case reports of severe cardiac events occurring in healthy individuals using anabolic-androgenic steroids (AAS). The case reports include sudden death, dilated cardiomyopathy, and myocardial infarctions. The treating physicians or pathologists were unable to identify any cause for the cardiac events. The only common factor in the young athletes were AAS. This does not prove that AAS caused the problem. The medical literature is now advising cardiologists to consider anabolic steroid use in any young person with unexplained cardiac problems. We will have to wait for a definitive answer.
  • UFJocknerd

    Posts: 392

    Aug 22, 2009 12:18 PM GMT
    SFSurfer said
    I guess he did died from being 35yo. That makes sense. Healthy guys just die. Not supported by research. Why, then, if he was an otherwise healthy guy, did he die? At 35? History of heart disease in his family?


    You clearly failed to understand my post.
  • UFJocknerd

    Posts: 392

    Aug 22, 2009 12:25 PM GMT
    FirstKnight said
    There are no long term studies on the effects of anabolic steroids and the heart.


    Kanayama, G., Hudson, J. I., & Pope, H. G. (2008 ). Long-term psychiatric and medical consequences of anabolic-androgenic steroid abuse: A looming public health concern? Drug and Alcohol Dependence, 98, 1-12.

    Abstract:
    Background: The problem of anabolic–androgenic steroid (AAS) abuse has recently generated widespread public and media attention. Most AAS abusers, however, are not elite athletes like those portrayed in the media, and many are not competitive athletes at all. This larger but less visible population of ordinary AAS users began to emerge in about 1980. The senior members of this population are now entering middle age; they represent the leading wave of a new type of aging former substance abusers, with specific medical and psychiatric risks.
    Methods: We reviewed the evolving literature on long-term psychiatric and medical consequences of AAS abuse.
    Results: Long-term use of supraphysiologic doses of AAS may cause irreversible cardiovascular toxicity, especially atherosclerotic effects and cardiomyopathy. In other organ systems, evidence of persistent toxicity is more modest, and interestingly, there is little evidence for an increased risk of prostate cancer. High concentrations of AAS, comparable to those likely sustained by many AAS abusers, produce apoptotic effects on various cell types, including neuronal cells—raising the specter of possibly irreversible neuropsychiatric toxicity. Finally, AAS abuse appears to be associated with a range of potentially prolonged psychiatric effects, including dependence syndromes, mood syndromes, and progression to other
    forms of substance abuse. However, the prevalence and severity of these various effects remains poorly understood.
    Conclusions: As the first large wave of former AAS users now moves into middle age, it will be important to obtain more systematic data on the long-term psychiatric and medical consequences of this form of substance abuse.

    Here's a review supporting my position. I have a dozen more. Where are yours?

    Once again, we have the cute division of person 1: "AAS will kill you if you look at them!" and person 2: "AAS are wonderful and nothing bad will happen from use!" Both extreme positions are incorrect.
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    Aug 22, 2009 12:52 PM GMT
    UFJockNerd-

    Your study is very impressive and not impressive at the same time.

    From just a small questioning of my friends in the bodybuilding community-

    They laugh at you studies and assumptions.

    People in the bodybuilding cummunity, take way more roids and HGH and other things than any study could take account for.

    Maybe it is not roids that kill them. Even they do not know. Maybe it is the combination. But, they all know that the combination of roids, HGH, and testosterone eventually fuck them up. I talk to old guys and young guys alike.

    We have all seen friends die young, way more than the population in general. Liver failure, liver cancer, heart failure in 20 somethings, ect.

    Maybe it is coincidence.. I am a science guy. Give me proof, not hearsay.

    But I have seen enough hot young guys die from weird maladies to figure it out.

    But maybe I am wrong.
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    Aug 22, 2009 1:00 PM GMT
    Maybe we should ask why anyone would feel the need to use roids or anything artificial to feel good about themselves? Maybe that is a bigger question that we should all ask ourselves?
  • UFJocknerd

    Posts: 392

    Aug 22, 2009 1:01 PM GMT
    SFSurfer said
    Maybe it is coincidence.. I am a science guy. Give me proof, not hearsay.


    That would be the study and its references list. icon_rolleyes.gif Maybe before deciding its merit you should, ah, read it. Just a thought.

    I've found AAS users to be very receptive to well-done research. I'm also unaware of any actual "science guys" who would place their own anecdotal experiences ahead of actual research.
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    Aug 22, 2009 1:10 PM GMT
    I read it. But it is a study. It does not reflect real world use, which actuallly means more to me. I prefer to talk about real world applications than limited studies. You can live in the world of academia, I appreciate that. But I trust the real world more than I do limited studies of limited individuals. People in the real world do not really fit perfectly in your academic studies. But thanks.
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    Aug 22, 2009 1:25 PM GMT
    When it comes to illegal drug use, like steriods, I doubt that they tell you the truth anymore than they tell me. Illegal being the key word. But, being that I am a member of that world and you are not, being a researcher and scientist and all, and I have been with them much longer, I have been around them day in and day out....I think they are more honest with me than they are with you.

    So, maybe, I am wrong. But I am much closer to the truth than you are. You can base your studies on what you think. And your studies are based on your assumptions?
  • UFJocknerd

    Posts: 392

    Aug 22, 2009 1:26 PM GMT
    You read it in the 20 minutes between my posting it and your reply?

    I'm sorry, you've been downgraded to too cognitively impaired for me to continue discussions with, It's like arguing with a 4-year old. If you'd like to actually do research on the topic and continue at a later date, that would be acceptable.
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    Aug 22, 2009 1:37 PM GMT
    Buddy, no offense but I can debate your silly arguments in less than 5 minutes. You obviously have no original thoughts. You want to send me to things that you did not come up with on your own. No surprise. You have no original thoughts of your own. Who am I debating? You or the authors of more well thought out thesis?
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    Aug 22, 2009 1:42 PM GMT
    Do you actually have an original idea or must you send me to read authors that agree with your ideas?

    I can read other guys on my own. I actually wanted your opinion.
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    Aug 22, 2009 2:00 PM GMT
    At no time did I say anabolic steroids are without hazards. AAS steroids have not been definitely proven to cause heart disease. As I mentioned, there are many case reports in the medical literature of severe cardiac disease in users of AAS. The medical literature points out that this is not proof that the AAS caused the problem. We can only assume that AAS caused the problem since no other etiologies could be found. More research is necessary. The article you mentioned seems to agree with me. They mentioned the following: "Long-term use of supraphysiologic doses of AAS may cause irreversible cardiovascular toxicity, especially atherosclerotic effects and cardiomyopathy" The medical journals I read suggest that physicians consider anabolic steroids as a cause of cardiac dysfunction in young individuals when no other pathology can be found. Off the topic.: When I worked in the ER, I saw a user of AAS exsanguinating from a hemorrhagic hepatic adenoma. We were able to save his life. I have also referred a AAS user to a urologist for ED. He also had problems with spermatogenesis and infertility. So I agree there are risks.
  • UFJocknerd

    Posts: 392

    Aug 22, 2009 2:07 PM GMT
    FirstKnight saidAt no time did I say anabolic steroids are without hazards. AAS steroids have not been definitely proven to cause heart disease. As I mentioned, there are many case reports in the medical literature of severe cardiac disease in users of AAS. The medical literature points out that this is not proof that the AAS caused the problem. We can only assume that they caused the problem since no other etiologies could be found. More research is necessary. The article you mentioned seems to agree with me. They mentioned the following: "Long-term use of supraphysiologic doses of AAS may cause irreversible cardiovascular toxicity, especially atherosclerotic effects and cardiomyopathy" The medical journals I read suggest that physicians consider anabolic steroids as a cause of cardiac dysfunction in young individuals when no other pathology can be found. Off the topic, when I worked in the ER I saw a user of AAS exsanguinating from a hemorrhagic hepatic adenoma . I have also referred a AAS user to a urologist for ED. He also had problems with spermatogenesis and infertility. So I agree there are risks.


    Where did you pick up that I was contending anything different from the above? You're right that there are no good, strongly controlled, longitudinal, human studies, because it's impossible. It's not unreasonable, in the absence of that work, to make precautionary, preliminary judgments based on correlational designs or animal analogue work. These judgments would speak strongly against the abuse, but not necessarily the use, of AAS. Witness, for example, the very title of the article I cited: Long-term psychiatric and medical consequences of anabolic-androgenic steroid abuse: A looming public health concern?
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    Aug 22, 2009 2:14 PM GMT
    I thought you meant that I was person 2: "AAS are wonderful and nothing bad will happen from use!" icon_redface.gif
  • UFJocknerd

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    Aug 22, 2009 2:21 PM GMT
    FirstKnight saidI thought you meant that I was person 2: "AAS are wonderful and nothing bad will happen from use!" icon_redface.gif


    Ah, well, partially, you and the OP, when you wrote among other things, "There is no research that proves anabolic steroids cause myocardial infarctions or cardiomyopathy." My interpretation of that was that you were averring that because no work on that exists, then it's not a problem, which is actually a (pretty foolish) position some people take on the topic. After your subsequent post I grok that that's not what you were saying; I think we have the same position.
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    Aug 22, 2009 3:01 PM GMT
    Actually, research indicates that testosterone PROTECTS the heart. Study after study shows that to be true. It's a given that some folks are genetically disposed to heart disease. Testosterone also protects against Parkinson's and Alzheimer's. Good medicine is showing that if testosterone levels are kept UP there's much less chance of heart disease. The links below are from VERY REPUTABLE sources. I've read countless articles on this topic.

    http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=testosterone+protects+heart&btnG=Google+Search&fp=6bcd3cb60193f5b2

    From The New York Times:

    A SURPRISING new finding by researchers in New York City challenges the long-held belief that the male sex hormone, testosterone, is important in causing heart attacks in men. Rather, the researchers conclude, testosterone may help protect men against heart attacks, which are the leading cause of death in the United States and many other countries. The study found a very strong correlation between low amounts of testosterone and the degree of coronary artery disease, which underlies most heart attacks. When coronary arteries become clogged with fatty material, less blood can flow through .

    http://www.nytimes.com/1994/05/10/science/testosterone-may-avert-heart-attack.html

    My own, PERSONAL, experience has been that I feel much better, and my blood pressure goes DOWN, when I take my HRT script. In addition, my lipid profile is improved when I do so.

    http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=testosterone+protects+heart&btnG=Google+Search&fp=6bcd3cb60193f5b2

    http://men.webmd.com/news/20030527/low-testosterone-linked-to-heart-disease

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18157169

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=7&url=http%3A%2F%2Fchealth.canoe.ca%2Fchannel_health_news_details.asp%3Fnews_id%3D8682%26channel_id%3D151&ei=LgeQSvn-A56ntge6maDPBA&rct=j&q=testosterone+protects+heart&usg=AFQjCNENZRwQkiQq8lDzwtlNfl2kFwSxbw

    http://howtopreventheartdisease.blogspot.com/2009/03/is-males-testosterone-level-linked-to.html

    http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/150436/research_links_low_testosterone_higher_heart_risk_in_men_but/

    http://www.hammerinstitute.com/hormones/testosterone.php

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    Aug 22, 2009 3:11 PM GMT
    A physiologic dose of testosterone is cardioprotective for the deficient male.
    There may be cardiotoxicity with supraphysiologic doses of AAS. As mentioned in the other posts, this has not been proven but is a possibility.
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    Aug 22, 2009 3:17 PM GMT
    I think some of these guys get into trouble because they get to heavy for their own good and don't do cardio, and some even eat junk. The problem is more often obesity.

    There have been guys who won the New York Marathon several times that dropped dead from heart disease.

    Lots of times, folks are taking beta agonists, and are on crappy diets, and don't do cardio. I think the cardio part is critical.

    When I was 41 (I'm 49 now), my bp and heart rate started coming up. Doctor said "Welcome to the over 40 club." He put me on HRT, and both my heart rate and bp improved, along with my lean muscle mass and a general sense of well being. That's my personal experience, which also agrees with the many studies done on this. I'm a big believer in prevention. I've almost always done cardio, in addition to eating real lean, and lifting. I rarely eat much saturated fat. My current doctor is more conservative than the last one, and it's pissing me off. I'm actually firing him today after a meeting with him.

    LVH is a given in any weightlifter (it's an adaptive response), whether they use AAS, or not. That's also been heavily studied.

    Mostly a guy needs to do cardio. It's critical to good health. In particular, HIIT, which targets cardiac THRESHOLD, is best.
  • UFJocknerd

    Posts: 392

    Aug 22, 2009 3:20 PM GMT
    In the context of the original post, I'm pretty sure we're talking about years of using AAS at supraphysiological doses here, not a 50-year-old using androgel. :-). Again, use vs. abuse.
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    Aug 22, 2009 3:22 PM GMT
    FirstKnight saidA physiologic dose of testosterone is cardioprotective for the deficient male.
    There may be cardiotoxicity with supraphysiologic doses of AAS. As mentioned in the other posts, this has not been proven but is a possibility.


    Where have you ever read that?

    That's like Reefer Madness... Pure specualtion.

    In 60 years of study... not once has that shown up.

    In fact, the endos are asking test not be controlled.

    "Deficient" is a HUGE range.

    E.g. one "doctor" would say 200 is enough, and another says, 600, and another 1000.

    Study after study with folks sick with HIV has shown levels ABOVE 1000 markedly improve long term outcomes.

    Now, if you're bloated from taking to much test, with no ancillaries, and you don't get the water off, you could well have some hypertension. That's why it's so important it not be criminalized. So it can be treated, studied, and improved.