Apparently security does not apply to gays...

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 06, 2007 8:30 PM GMT
    http://365gay.com/Newscon07/12/120607hate.htm

    To appease right-wing bigots, The Matthew Shepard Hate Crimes Bill has been dropped from the defense bill.

    The republicans are concerned with protecting Americans from danger abroad, but not comfortable protecting Queer Americans from danger domestically.
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    Dec 06, 2007 11:44 PM GMT
    Actually, hippie, according to news reports the bill was shot down by 40 or so liberal Democrats who refused to approve any bill that escalated the funding for the Iraq war. It was stupid of the leadership to attach it to a bill that was going to cause so much trouble. And, according to what I read, a fair number of Republicans bolted their party to vote FOR the bill, precisely because it would have raised the funding for the war.

    Politics in a funhouse mirror.
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    Dec 07, 2007 1:55 PM GMT
    The republicans are concerned with protecting Americans from danger abroad !!

    Thats right protecting America comes first. DUHHHHHHHH. God Why does it always have to be with GAY rights with you dems.
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    Dec 07, 2007 2:06 PM GMT
    We should protect Americans from danger abroad. So let us bring home the troops from this stupid war where they are dying.

    Also, why shouldn't the hate crimes bill be on the DoD, defense and security is not only international, gay people need the federal government to intervene and defend them against hate crimes.

    tylerjock unless you were being sarcastic, and its too early in the morning for me to tell, you sound like a right-wing homophobe, if you were sarcastic i apologize.
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    Dec 07, 2007 2:30 PM GMT
    No I would never be a part of the left side. Just a bunch of pussys who are afraid of war. Lets bring the troops home and show the rest of the world we are running home scared.
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    Dec 07, 2007 2:37 PM GMT
    Actually I think I disagree with the premise behind most 'Hate Crimes' Legislation.

    In a sense much of crime is 'Hate Crimes'. Why create a special class of criminal based solely on that?

    If someone is assaulted or murdered, they are just as injured or dead no matter what the reasons behind it. I don't think we need longer sentencing for those crimes.

    They are criminals just the same, and should face the same penalty as every other criminal.

    What I do support - and think we need desperately - is easier prosecution, and better court guidelines about getting hate criminals into the system. We need to be able to make it easier and more 'rewarding' for prosecutors to take on these cases rather than brush them under the carpet by refusing to prosecute, plea bargaining, etc.

    We need stricter rules for judges so that they have firmer guidelines regarding sentencing, and do not release these people so easily back to the communitty on bail, probation, etc. And finally we need a prison system that does not grant so many early paroles to criminals.

    A lot of people will disagree vehemently. Just my two cents.

    Hate crimes legislation is one of those things that looks good politically, but doesn't really resolve an issue, nor go to the root of it. Its political fodder - not dealing with 'objective reality'.
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    Dec 07, 2007 2:37 PM GMT



    Vote for American leadership and innovation in the world

    Vote for Human Rights for male relationships

    Vote Democrat or Republican or other


  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 07, 2007 2:55 PM GMT
    Tylerjock: "No I would never be a part of the left side. Just a bunch of pussys who are afraid of war"

    I see you are 18, have you enlisted in the military yet?
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    Dec 07, 2007 3:11 PM GMT
    Hippie I doubt he's even 18 or the kid in the pics.

    I'll be honest, I asked him to verify his "size claim" and he sent me a mass message to 30ish people with pics that don't look like him. Unverified icon_wink.gif
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    Dec 07, 2007 3:13 PM GMT
    ITJockActually I think I disagree with the premise behind most 'Hate Crimes' Legislation.


    Yeah. The justifications for considering "hate crimes" don't hold up so well. The best I've found is that, for example, beating up a leather dyke because she's a leather dyke is actually a crime committed against all leather dykes as a community, of which the one beaten was only a symbolic representation. And even that justification only sounds good from certain angles.

    Tack it onto a troubling Defense Reauthorization bill, and I'd have reservations about voting it through, too.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 07, 2007 3:45 PM GMT
    honestly guys dont worry about it. There are alot of bills that they need to pass before the sesson is over with and I wouldnt doubt it if they do it like the always do, toss it in a spending bill again and then pass it in to law. Thats usually how it works. =) It happened last time like that with the Min. wage increase it will happen like that again. if you here the word or phrase "Omnibus" check it. It will more than likely be in there. icon_wink.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 07, 2007 3:46 PM GMT
    I have no problem with "hate crimes". We distinguish all the time between types of killings, and one of the key bases for the difference is intent. Second degree murder = unpremeditated, first degree = premeditated. What are these distinctions but states of mind, acknowledging prior intent? And if we can and do distinguish for premeditation, why can we not distinguish between murders for money (in the course of a robbery, or professional hits) and murders for ideological reasons (hates homos)?
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    Dec 07, 2007 3:49 PM GMT
    Perhaps because it is a very short and slippery slope from that to punishing someone based on what they think or believe.

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    Dec 07, 2007 4:06 PM GMT
    Rob--
    I understand your point, but I believe the law already does that. This is not a new principle. And as to slippery slopes, no one is suggesting it be made illegal to dislike anyone. The law offers a lot of precedent for distinguishing between states of mind already, however.

    In fact, the law--and I don't personally like this a bit--distinguishes between OUTCOMES. Victim impact statements, a bad idea if there ever was one, can and do sway actual sentences. So now we get a situation where two men both commit murders in the course of a robbery, say, and one of the victims is a crackhead and the other is a good man with a wife and four kids. Guess who's going to get the stiffer sentence? AND THE CRIMES WERE THE SAME.
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    Dec 07, 2007 4:16 PM GMT
    Well, considering how ridiculously politically correct this country is I'm sure plenty will disagree with you ITJock but I couldn't agree with you more. A crime is a crime is a crime. To label something a "hate" murder or "hate" assault and to punish those offenders with harsher guidelines than the rest of the offenders just seems unfair to victims involved in cases where it's not a "hate" crime. Also, it seems like you're getting in to a dangerous grey area where you're punishing people for their thoughts. We already have a system that punishes people for their actions against others...not sure we can reasonably and consistently punish based on someone's perceived prejudices nor do I think we should. I also have another issue with the "hate" crime notion. It's the idea that only white people can act out of "hate" and prejudice. The law is supposed to provide equal protection to all but have you ever heard of a black on white "hate" crime. If it can't be applied to all evenly, it shouldn't be in place at all.

    jprichva, I'm not at all surprised by that report. I've always thought this notion by a lot of gays that most Democrats would go to the mat for our "rights" is silly. Unless they're actually gay Democrats, I believe most all of them have no problem sacrificing "gay rights" of any kind when it gets in the way of a bigger agenda. Democrats have most of the gay voting block by the balls because they know most will never vote Republican no matter what. If you don't think they're counting on that, you better think again.
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    Dec 12, 2007 1:30 PM GMT
    "Just a bunch of pussys who are afraid of war."

    You have to be a complete and utter moron not to be afraid of war. I've never bought into this idea that people who don't want to be killed or mamed are cowardly.
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    Dec 12, 2007 3:21 PM GMT
    You tell'em McGay! One of my cousin's fought in NAM and an ex-lover of mine fought in the Gulf War.

    The stories they told me Whew!

    Hey Tylerjock- When do you plan to enlist and serve in Iraq?

    GOOOOO JOE!icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Dec 12, 2007 4:15 PM GMT
    Oh, good point to call him on his enlistment. I wait to see his response.
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    Dec 12, 2007 4:29 PM GMT
    I'm pretty sure TylerJock's positions and assertions don't come from any substantial, credible place. They merely seem to come from a teenage mind latching onto the paranoid, war-mongering, imperialist pop culture of four years ago.

    Go to your room TylerJock...and no Toby Keith music for a week.
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    Dec 12, 2007 4:40 PM GMT
    RuggerATX-

    I totally agree with you...That's why I cut him some slack..."from the mouths of babes"

    Tylerjock-

    I support our troops 100%.... Do I support the current chain of events that has unfolded with our current presidential adminstration...hmmmmmm let me ponder that for a moment....NO!

    Becarful kid with the name calling because the guys on this site will call you out and they take no prisoners!icon_mad.gif

    opps! corrected a typo--my bad!
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    Dec 12, 2007 4:54 PM GMT
    To those who believe a "crime is a crime": do you feel this way about drug sentencing laws as well or would you have universal guidelines there as well?

    To those who say "I support our troops 100%" (HERE I WILL OFFEND MANY SURELY): your troops are occupying a country that did not attach you and just so happened to be sitting on major oil reserves. Not saying you should demonize people who join the army out of desperation or the like, BUT, please keep in mind that your present-day "support" helps justify the genocide in Iraq which has to date killed close to 1,000,000 human beings in 4 years. Nuance boys, it's all about nuance.
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    Dec 12, 2007 5:12 PM GMT
    It's simple. Support the troops, reject the commander.

    Tough to twist that one into neocon propaganda.
  • jarhead5536

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    Dec 12, 2007 5:32 PM GMT
    A hate crime is act of terrorism, in my opinion. By its nature the victim is specifically targeted due to his/her identity or race or ethnicity or religion or whatever. The act of violence is one against all others in that same class, and therefore instills fear in the entire group. This is distinctly different from a random act of violence or violence done during the commission of another crime.

    This is why we need need hate crimes legislation, because it is a different type of act.
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    Dec 12, 2007 5:48 PM GMT
    I agree with ITJock. Crime is crime. If we start making special laws concerning "Hate Crimes", aren't we prosecuting thought, not just action? That's pretty scary because we still, supposedly, enjoy the freedom to think and say what we please. "Hate Crimes" legislation is very Orwelian and definitely takes us down the wrong path.
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    Dec 12, 2007 5:51 PM GMT
    "To those who believe a "crime is a crime": do you feel this way about drug sentencing laws as well or would you have universal guidelines there as well?"

    Completely different topic, in my mind. First, I think most drugs should be legal. But that's a topic for another thread... :-) Of course the law must account for state of mind, etc. when sentencing. However, I don't think we should have special laws that, in essence, punish thought. That's what "Hate Crimes" legislation does and I think that's very scary!!!