AMERICAN HEALTH CARE VS.SOCIALIZED MEDICINE? Should we go into "Social Medicine" in the Healthcare system or should we "stay the same" paying fees for services?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 27, 2009 3:13 PM GMT
    AMERICAN HEALTH CARE VS.SOCIALIZED MEDICINE?

    Should we go into "Social Medicine" in the Healthcare system or should we "stay the same" paying fees for services?
  • tokugawa

    Posts: 945

    Aug 27, 2009 4:03 PM GMT
    The U.S. has had socialized medicine since 1798, when the predecessor to the U.S. Public Health Service was established to provide medical care to merchant seamen. By the way, George Washington was president in 1798.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Health_Service#History

    Today, the major U.S. government health insurance programs are Medicare and Medicaid. Medicare provides health coverage to Americans over 65, Medicaid provides health coverage to the extreme poor.

    People with AIDS can only become eligible for Medicaid after "spending down" their wealth to about $200. This would not be necessary under a Canadian "single payer" system, where all Canadians are covered by a single government run insurance program which pays for doctor and hospital services.

    In the U.S., private insurance companies will spend whatever it takes to prevent a Canadian-type single payer system here. In fact, the U.S. insurance industry will spend whatever it takes to prevent any law which limits or reduces its profits. This is evident when comparing the administrative costs of the Canadian system (3% of their health care dollar) to the American system (14% of our health care dollar.)
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 27, 2009 4:20 PM GMT

    my two cents worth...

    1. There is absolutely NO incentive to stay well in our current system...to take care of yourself... to avoid chronic preventable conditions like obesity, diabetes, etc. Most people only seek out "health care" when something is already wrong... My insurance plan gives like $150 per year toward a gym membership... um, gee thanks... that buys like 3months worth...and there's nothing saying I actually have to use the membership...just buy one! There's no incentive to get an annual check up...etc etc.

    2. We're already paying for those without insurance... hello? Why do you think premiums are going up and up... hospitals and service providers have to jack up their prices since those with no insurance typically end up going to the ER (the highest cost form of care)... someone has to pay... guess what, if you have insurance, YOU are!

    Let's remember that the whole concept of insurance is a bit of a shell game... everyone puts X dollars into a pool... the insurance company is betting that a small number of people will actually make any claims... so a healthy person gets much less in return than a person that requires steady medical attention. Again, doesn't seem like much incentive to stay healthy does it? Unless that healthy person gets all kinds of unnecessary tests done...which also happens more often than you'd think...

    If we require everyone to have some sort of insurance, even if some people can only contribute a little bit, AND start providing real incentives to live a more healthy lifestyle, then we have a shot at keeping costs down... otherwise it's just going to spiral out of control.



  • cowboyathlete

    Posts: 1346

    Aug 27, 2009 4:23 PM GMT
    matador95 said
    my two cents worth...

    1. There is absolutely NO incentive to stay well in our current system...to take care of yourself... to avoid chronic preventable conditions like obesity, diabetes, etc. Most people only seek out "health care" when something is already wrong... My insurance plan gives like $150 per year toward a gym membership... um, gee thanks... that buys like 3months worth...and there's nothing saying I actually have to use the membership...just buy one! There's no incentive to get an annual check up...etc etc.

    2. We're already paying for those without insurance... hello? Why do you think premiums are going up and up... hospitals and service providers have to jack up their prices since those with no insurance typically end up going to the ER (the highest cost form of care)... someone has to pay... guess what, if you have insurance, YOU are!

    Let's remember that the whole concept of insurance is a bit of a shell game... everyone puts X dollars into a pool... the insurance company is betting that a small number of people will actually make any claims... so a healthy person gets much less in return than a person that requires steady medical attention. Again, doesn't seem like much incentive to stay healthy does it? Unless that healthy person gets all kinds of unnecessary tests done...which also happens more often than you'd think...

    If we require everyone to have some sort of insurance, even if some people can only contribute a little bit, AND start providing real incentives to live a more healthy lifestyle, then we have a shot at keeping costs down... otherwise it's just going to spiral out of control.



    You are absolutely right on the money, and your second point is doubly so. Furthermore, I hate false dilemmas like the one posted by the OP.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 27, 2009 4:27 PM GMT
    I have thought about this and come to the conclusion that maybe 5-10% of the population of the United States actually knows what the word socialist means icon_rolleyes.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 27, 2009 4:32 PM GMT
    For the last 40 years I have used US "socialized" medicine. For 25 years in the Army, as did my wife & kids, and then with the Veterans Administration (VA) for the last 14.

    But I admit the VA system is very variable by location. And it greatly deteriorated under Bush, when the per-veteran expenditure plummeted as the wounded from Iraq & Afghanistan hit the system. Republicans will tout slight overall increases in the VA budget under Bush, but the actually amount spent per veteran being served dropped dramatically. So much for Republican claims for being champions of our wounded heroes.

    I finally moved over to civilian medicine under Medicare a little over a year ago, though now I have co-pays I never paid before. It's a cost I accept to get adequate care, until the VA gets its act back in order. But it's still socialized medicine, and it works for me.

    Plus what Obama proposes is not the government-owned & run hospitals that I used for nearly 40 years. It is merely the funding that would become a function of the government.

    If a system that is at least as good as what we soldiers had, and that the VA provides, is not good enough for all US citizens, then I do wonder what these "patriots" are protesting about. Are they saying that they should get better care than heroic military & veterans? Are they saying that what we veterans are provided is inferior?

    If so, then we have another problem. don't we? Let them wave their American flags about THAT. Somehow I doubt they'll want to go there.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 27, 2009 4:36 PM GMT
    matador95 hit the nail on the head! Our healthcare system is all about prescribing drugs, then more drugs to counteract the side-effects of the first round, etc., more tests, more procedures, and ridiculous prices all around. I had an abdominal CT scan. $5000!!!! INSANE!!!! I was literally in the machine for 60 seconds. Even after my insurance picked up part of the tab, I had to pay $1200.

    As my current doctor (an MD with extensive training in eastern medicine) says, disease is 75% lifestyle choice and the remaining 25% is what worries everyone. People make bad choices over and over, then wonder why they are sick. They eat garbage day in and day out and park the wide load in front of the TV for hours - and wonder why they are obese.

    The current system does nothing to encourage a healthy lifestyle. I've been through a lot of stuff with my stomach issues and the *only* thing western doctors have *ever* done for me is prescribe more drugs and order more tests. It was only when I took control of my life and health that things started to improve - dramatically. But, guess what, I had to change my lifestyle, more specifically my diet. I had to give up things I love. It's become harder to eat out. I have to cook more. But I'm healthier and happier. And I haven't popped a pharmaceutical drug in years.

    We're conditioned to want a pill to fix the problem and it just doesn't work that way. The current healthcare debate is a joke. It's not about making people healthier, ultimately. Yes, the uninsured need coverage, but what we *all* really need is a new perspective on what it means - and takes - to be healthy. And if we, as a society, need to make some changes, then so be it.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 27, 2009 4:36 PM GMT
    right on Vespa!


    I mean the whole Medicare system isn't perfect...but ya know, it works reasonably well...

    and you're right about the "socialist/socialism" label... it's just thrown around to scare people.... few know what it really means...

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 27, 2009 4:38 PM GMT
    tokugawa saidThe U.S. has had socialized medicine since 1798, when the predecessor to the U.S. Public Health Service was established to provide medical care to merchant seamen. By the way, George Washington was president in 1798.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Health_Service#History

    Today, the major U.S. government health insurance programs are Medicare and Medicaid. Medicare provides health coverage to Americans over 65, Medicaid provides health coverage to the extreme poor.

    People with AIDS can only become eligible for Medicaid after "spending down" their wealth to about $200. This would not be necessary under a Canadian "single payer" system, where all Canadians are covered by a single government run insurance program which pays for doctor and hospital services.

    In the U.S., private insurance companies will spend whatever it takes to prevent a Canadian-type single payer system here. In fact, the U.S. insurance industry will spend whatever it takes to prevent any law which limits or reduces its profits. This is evident when comparing the administrative costs of the Canadian system (3% of their health care dollar) to the American system (14% of our health care dollar.)


    Actually, Medicare is a federally funded program and is part of The Social Security Administration. Medicaid is a state funded program, and is for folks who a minor children, and, almost always, under age of majority, which is 18, in most states, but, lower in a few, and higher in others. Medicaid is NOT, as some think, a program for the poor or indigent. Those programs are almost always funded at the county level such as JPS for Fort Worth (Tarrant County), and Parkland Cares for Dallas (Dallas County). In Denton County (Denton, TX), and in many counties across the country there are funds for indigent / payer of last resort. Finally, in some areas there a NO funds for someone who gets sick, or hurt, and can't pay. Those folks only receive through the very, very, very expensive emergency room, where, in most states, and by federal guidelines, they can't be refused service.

    In Dallas County, Dallas's Parkland Hospital has the highest illegal birth rate in the world of 83%. That is 83% of all births at Parkland Hospital are to folks who are in this country illegally. Most of that activity is funded by the public. Parkland, despite that, is one of the highest rated, level 1, trauma centers, in The World.

    In Texas, we have The Texas Risk Pool, which provides insurance for those with pre-existing conditions, but, is not all-accepting, and in true American style, only if they can pay for it. E.g., HIV, diabetes, mental illness, etc. That fund, by law, CANNOT be competitive with private insurance and must be higher than 78% of private insurance companies in the state. It does not insure anyone that can be insured via other means, generally speaking, no matter what the cost of the private insurance. That fund really isn't public, but, rather, is a for-profit fund, operated by Blue Cross of Texas.

    In Texas, if you don't have money to get into the Texas Risk Pool, and you happen to live in a non-urban county, as a general rule, you're "out of luck."

    Here in Texas, wait times for public services are EXTREME. We just saw someone work in July for an appointment set October 21'st for SNAP (food stamps). I intervened on their behalf and got the appointment moved, but, only after I threatened a broadcast news story on it.

    George Bush'es "faith-based" approach doesn't work, although charities try. For our local CCA (Christian Community Action) wait times as long as six weeks are not at all uncommon.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 27, 2009 4:44 PM GMT
    MsclDrew saidI have thought about this and come to the conclusion that maybe 5-10% of the population of the United States actually knows what the word socialist means icon_rolleyes.gif


    Of course we know. Socialism is when the government does stuff. So like, when a bunch of city auditors get together to play poker. SOCIALIZED POKER! Now do we want that? Personally, I don't. I just want to government to keep their hands of my Medicare and let the perfect free market continue to do the excellent job it has with roads, utilities, measurements, currency, and food/drug inspections.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 27, 2009 4:46 PM GMT
    I'm educated, a degree in computer science. I live with flex89 / Logan, and help him out. Logan is a type 1 diabetic who is 20 years old, and while brilliant, faces challenges with social skills, and time management.

    Logan is not insured, and the Texas Risk Pool is very expensive. Because Logan is diabetic, he can't buy insurance from most private insurance companies, so he's stuck with The Texas Risk Pool, and it's way to much money for a 20 year old kid. So...he stays uninsured and we pay out of pocket for his testing supplies, and I got Ely Lilly to give him free insulin for a year (once every 3 years) and Medtronics gave him free pump supplies six months (once every three years). Once Logan runs out of pump supplies, he'll likely be forced to do shots, instead of a monitored drip of insulin.

    In Idaho, Logan's tests were $480. In Texas, $350 at one doctor, $350 at another, and $80, at another doctor, and $12 at Primary Care, here in Lewisville. Logan's Humalog U-100 insulin is over-the-counter in Canada and costs $38 USD. Here in the U.S.A. it's $103.50 at Walmart and requires a prescription (meaning more doctor visits if he wants the fastest insulin).

    We agonize about Logan's long term outcome. Logan can't work in a high-pressure environment. He's not capable. When he tries it makes him sick. (We've been down that path.)

    We're working hard to figure out how to keep Logan alive on a daily basis. It sometimes means not eating.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 27, 2009 4:52 PM GMT
    Free health care for all. It is pointless trying to make a rational argument about
    the cost of such a system now. Get it up and running and then increase taxes for the " free" health care for anyone that uses it.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 27, 2009 4:56 PM GMT
    chuckystud saidHere in Texas, wait times for public services are EXTREME. We just saw someone work in July for an appointment set October 21'st for SNAP (food stamps).

    I had to wait for a full 12 months to see a podiatrist about the arthritis in my feet. All the VA hospital had was an Army Reservist MD in a military medical unit from 1500 miles away who flew in once a month for a weekend to see patients to fulfill his monthly drill requirement. Most VA hospitals have contracted civilian MDs, but podiatrists are evidently rare, so that hospital used an Army Reservist. This was in 2004.

    I also had to wait a year to see a urologist. He was a local civilian, but not surprisingly older veterans have lots of urology problems. And that VA hospital couldn't fund enough urologists, though they were in great demand. So you just waited, same time period as above. Prior to Bush, I could see a VA urologist without delay.

    But don't forget the Republican mantra: we love veterans, the Democrats hate them. If that was love, the Republicans can take it and shove it.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 27, 2009 4:59 PM GMT
    chuckystud saidWe're working hard to figure out how to keep Logan alive on a daily basis. It sometimes means not eating.


    That is the real death panel in the health care debate, not the system that would ensure people like Logan can live their lives fully and with dignity.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 27, 2009 5:07 PM GMT
    I'm self-employed, and have been for many years. Income is way down now. I don't have health insurance. On June 18, 2009, the one thing I didn't want to happen happened. I tore my right distal biceps tendon. 34 years of lifting, and snap. I wasn't careless; I wasn't stupid...it was just 34 years and some age catching up with me.

    Tendon repairs have the best long term outcome if they're repaired within 8 days.

    When I tore my tendon, I went searching for a way to fix it. If I didn't get it fixed somehow, it would mean that I could tear it off and completely lose the function in my arm. Not good. It would also mean that I'd never be able to compete again, not do my passion of lifting, and no physical labor.

    First, I went to my P.A.., back in June. I asked him to renew my bp scripts. I've had hypertension since my early 40's. With testosterone, and a mild diuretic, it comes into line. The doctor told me he wouldn't renew my scripts without lab work. I told him I didn't have the money and since I've been dealing with it for 9 years, and exercise nearly daily, but, he wouldn't budge. He literally laughed at me, saying "Good luck trying to get your arm fixed without insurance, you're gonna' need it."

    Well, I started digging, called my U.S. Congressman Michael Burgess who is a M.D. Although they promised to help me, even after several attempts, Burgess dropped the ball. Folks told me to call Parkland, and they wanted paperwork. My P.A. said, "I'm a doctor not a paper pusher." Finally, he gave my stuff to Parkland. After a couple of weeks, Parkland called and told me that I needed Denton County. I finally got someone to help me. My fireman friend referred me to a local M.D. he used for his surgery. That guy was out of town. I waited. The doctor finally met with me, one referred by the guy who was out of town. Total time since injury: 6 weeks. I told folks I had mild hypertension. Not once did anyone even take my b.p. The doctor ordered a MRI, because it had been 6 weeks. Finally surgery was scheduled for August 19. I had a IV in my arm, ready to get my arm fixed, finally...NOPE... Bp too high. Surgery suspended. Ortho M.D. wants cardioligst review. Go back to P.A. P.A. loads me up on alpha agonists, without blood work this time...even though..the county would pay for it now...he decides he doesn't need it (since I chewed his ass for blowing me off..his reply to that "That's what the E.R. is for."--GURR). Another week...yesterday I'm off to see the cardiologist...He listens to my chest, and says.."You sound great. No need to do a stress test on you." So, now...Friday...I go get an echogram done on my heart. Cardiologist took me OFF the alpha agonists and put me on ACE inhibs. I might get surgery next week..maybe...but...it's been 2.5 months since I tore my tendon now. What could have been a 5K thing now ends up being much more expensive because of all the delays.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 27, 2009 5:13 PM GMT
    Well, the county doesn't pay for the brace I need after they cut my tendon off and fix it. Ooops. So, I had to find funding for that. I found a group to fund my brace.

    County doesn't really help anyone who makes over about $900 in a month, and qualifies month to month, so....I'm racing the clock...I actually made some money in August, and told the county so.

    2.5 months...still not fixed.

    I literally had doctor's offices laugh at me for being "self pay."

    While I don't expect much to happen other than a bigger trough, I think the facts speak for themselves that Germany has had universal care since the late 1800, and most of Western Europe since the end of World War II, all while spending only about 1/3 of here, and having better long term outcomes.

    We have social schools, roads, fire depts, police depts, and we need a single payer system. I'd much rather have a government expert, rather than a for-profit expert, make choices on my health care. We need preventive care. A pandemic of obesity, and its diseases is right on the horizon.

    Folks shouldn't be afraid to get medical care because they don't want to go in debt. Folks shouldn't have to be sick, nor maimed, before they work to stay healthy.

    American Medicine isn't about being the best. It's not, by far. It's about illness for profit, and, it stinks to high heaven.

    United Health Care has done a pretty good job of scaring folks with their ad campaigns. The GOP has mustered many ignorant folks to cause disruption of the discussion.

    It's time that we step up as a people. Regular countries don't treat medicine the way we do, and we shouldn't, either.

    Had I been in Canada, or Western Europe, my arm would have been fixed on a timely basis, and likely at no cost to me. I don't think we should turn sick, or hurt, people out.

    If we can do corporate welfare, we should be able to keep the citizens healthy, like most countries do.

    So, anyway, maybe...maybe..next week, I'll get my arm fixed....and hope nothing goes wrong, because in this country....unless you're an illegal who uses the E.R., or sleep under the bridge, or have an employer willing to cough up a bunch of money for insurance...you're on your own...like it, or not. My P.A. laughs, and says..."Good luck!"

    Now, if I was fat, I could get SSI, but, I'm not...I tore my arm, and have low grade hypertension, and I'm self-employed, and help out a diabetic kid, so...I'm on my own....Welcome to America.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 27, 2009 7:10 PM GMT
    Hello everyone., I am glad to hear your opinions regarding this important subject. As we all know there is 2 side of the coin here i been following the debates and the voice of the people being raise about this matter. Now Health care costs have become a growing burden for American families. With the raising costs of premiums and other out-of-pocket expenses, it has forced many people into bankruptcy. More than 46 million Americans go uninsured each day, 9 million of whom are children. Health care is generally provided by employers, so what happens when you get laid off and no longer receive health care? What happens when that person's child gets sick and after many tests finds out their child has cancer and needs expensive treatment for a chance at survival? Who's going to pay for the treatment he or she needs? By having the government control health control, we can develop a centralized national database which makes diagnosis and treatment easier for doctors. We can also eliminate wasteful inefficiencies such as duplicate paper work, claim approval, insurance submission, etc. By doing so, medical professionals can concentrate on healing the patient rather than on insurance procedures and liabilities. Currently, patients often avoid physicals and other preventive measures because of the costs. More than 76 percent of those who filed for bankruptcy in 2001 due to medical issues had insurance at the beginning of their treatments. By slightly increasing taxes, free medical services would encourage patients to practice preventive medicine and inquire about problems early when treatment will be light. Some believe that universal health care would bankrupt America, but the Congressional Budget Office found that it would actually save $100 to $200 billion dollars per a year, according to the Connecticut Coalition for Universal Health Care. By supporting universal health care in the United States, you will be ensuring that each and every American family can have one less thing to worry about and can concentrate on family values and appreciate their well being and lives together.

    Currently there is a Proposal for A New Health Care System

    As we all know the health care system in the United States is currently in critical condition. It must be re-invented in order to care for all Americans and reduce the costs for everyone. Health care needs to be viewed like we view education…no one left behind. This report will focus on all aspects of health care including ambulatory care, long term health care and mental health care. Quality will also be an important factor in re-inventing a new health care system for Americans.
    In making the decisions on how to improve health care, one must exam all the issues with the current system. Strengths, weaknesses, costs, risks, administrative responsibilities and capital investments all are taken in to consideration to define the new health care system. In order to implement the new system there must be cooperation from all parties involved such as doctors, hospitals, insurance companies, employers and even the federal government.
    Currently the health care system works by private health care companies providing individual and group plans to the public. People that can not afford to pay for heath care the government provides their plan referred to as Medicaid and for individuals over 65 the government provides a plan referred to as Medicare. For years, people have paid for this insurance by taking a portion of their wages and contributing to the Medicare system as a way to be assured they will be taken care of when they reach retirement age.
    The problem with both private health care and the government system is the cost of health care has dramatically risen and premiums and wage contributions have not kept up the cost. I believe the reason for the increase in health care is that there are too many people managing the system. Historically, doctors used to allow 20 percent for managing their practice; this has now sky rocketed to 60 percent. Why we ask; we have the health insurance companies managing the doctors, the employers managing employee benefits and the insurance companies, consultants managing the employers and the government trying to manage the underprivileged and the elderly. We are now beginning to see these affects on system with higher premiums, increased wage contributions and the quality of care diminishing. We are also witnessing higher and higher numbers of individuals that can not afford the premiums but do not qualify for the Medicaid. This sector of the population is, in my opinion, the hardest hit individuals. They are single working mothers, business owners and minimum wage workers. A change must be made. There will be many challenges such as who will run the system and how it will affect both quality and our economy.
    The vision I have for a new health care system shall be constructed in the following manner: Hospitals (Company) will be given a capital investment from the federal government to form a partnership with doctors, labs, pharmacies and long term health care and ambulatory care facilities (Participant.) The Participant shall enter into a business relationship with the Company. The Company shall manage the Participant including developing health care plans, managing the financial risk, administrative responsibilities, health care costs and policies. The federal government shall redefine the definition of group health care as “two or more members of a hospitals health care plan”. A member shall be defined as any one individual paying a fee for membership into a hospital health care plan.
    This in turn, will allow an individual, whether or not they work for a corporation or as an independent contractor to become a member of a group health insurance plan managed by the Company (hospitals.) Costs for the consumer will dramatically be reduced by eliminating all the managing partners currently in place such as the health insurance companies, the employers, the government and consultants.
    The Company (hospitals) will offer different menu plans for all Americans to select from. Individuals can be treated anywhere the Company operates and/or its affiliates.
    They will consist of different menu style options such as low and high deductibles, doctor visit co-pays, catastrophic plans and mental health care and long term health care options. The plans will offset the costs of pre-existing conditions by offering the consumer new options such as, instead of a higher premium, the consumer can do community service at the hospital or participate in a clinical trial. They will also be required to attend preventative health care classes that pertain to their condition in order to help them self manage their health care. The Company will have 4 different charity events a year to raise money for individuals that can not afford the premiums. This will be determined by a case by case basis and not by poverty levels. The federal government shall pay the Company to manage Medicare and slowing fade these programs out. The government shall also create a law allowing employers to add health care costs to individual’s pre tax accounts. This will allow the employees to pay health care premiums on a pre tax basis. The cost of health care premiums shall also become tax deductible with no minimum limits.
    The risk shall be managed by the Company. The Company shall manage the Participants by consolidating and implementing information into a central EMR database which can be accessed by all Participants. The Company will also offer ownership to the Participants of the Company. This will ensure the Participant manages with quality and a loyalty to Company. Participants need not invest in the organization, and thus they carry limited financial risk. The Company will manage risk by packaging the group health care policies into low, medium and high risk options and selling
  • Mikeylikesit

    Posts: 1021

    Aug 27, 2009 7:37 PM GMT
    I'd like to chime in here....We fail to realize again, Where does it say that the government should be responsible for everyones health, wealth, & control out daily lives....It is improbably to expect us(tax payers) to pay for every single person out there....Survival of the fittest I presume...Isn't that how it has worked throughout history....
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 27, 2009 7:54 PM GMT
    Mikeylikesit saidI'd like to chime in here....We fail to realize again, Where does it say that the government should be responsible for everyones health, wealth, & control out daily lives...

    A. We ARE the government.
    B. The Preamble of the Constitution: "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 27, 2009 8:12 PM GMT
    It's always great when someone actually takes time to read the thing.

    If insurance premiums are going to be paid, in my view, better to pay them to The People than to The Rich. To me, that just makes sense.

    As a people, we SHOULD care for our fellow man, and take some things for a given. We do that with schools, roads, police, prisons, fires, and even broadcasting. No person in this country should be forced into bankruptcy to stay alive to choose between a second mortgage and keeping a finger. Like The War on Drugs, our system of health care isn't working right for a lot of folks. Folks die, every day, because it's all about lining the pockets of the wealthy, rather than caring for our fellow man.

    I'd much rather have a government bureaucrat make health care choices than a for-profit HMO figure head.

    Folks like Mikeylikesit exemplify a terrible thing that we have become as humans. It's embarrassing that folks like Mikeylikesit illustrate how low we've sunk with our selfishness. It's all about the all mighty dollar. It shouldn't be. Some things are best done socially. The roads. The police. The fire department. The schools. The libraries. Some things we need to do, because they're the right to thing to do. Should we let our fellow citizens suffer? I'd like to think that some things we do, as a The People / The Government because they're the right thing to do. No one should lose thier life's earning because they got sick.

    While we should become more responsible, if we have universal care, we'll be able to intervene sooner, so, instead of being a $80,000 surgery, it's a $200 office visit. You don't have to be a great thinker to figure out an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

    We think more about bailing out rich banks (that money could have funded public health for 10 years), and propping up badly managed auto manufacturers than we do of saving our people. Something is very wrong with how we treat each other.
  • Timbales

    Posts: 13993

    Aug 27, 2009 8:22 PM GMT
    IMO, all US citizens should have access to a government provided health insurance plan paid on a sliding scale according to their income level. It should be a choice we all have no matter who we are.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 27, 2009 8:27 PM GMT
    I have HOMO insurance. It's about the same as an HMO, but it bitches about the coverage allll by itself. icon_lol.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 27, 2009 8:28 PM GMT
    Mikeylikesit saidI'd like to chime in here....We fail to realize again, Where does it say that the government should be responsible for everyones health, wealth, & control out daily lives....It is improbably to expect us(tax payers) to pay for every single person out there....Survival of the fittest I presume...Isn't that how it has worked throughout history....


    Survival of the fittest is not how it has worked through history.

    Germany has had universal health care since the 1880's.

    Western Europe has had universal health care since the end of World War II.

    Even a very poor country like Cuba has had universal health care for DECADES.

    Through technology things like antibiotics, better food, better science across the board, have allowed people to live for much longer.

    Folks like Nick, and Logan, here...would be DEAD today without insulin.

    Mikeylikesit needs to watch the movie "Sicko." You can download it on Vuze or get it at a video store.

    Mikeylikesit's ignorance is appalling.

    Did you know that, in countries that have universal health care, they actually only spend about 1/3 as much as the U.S. does, yet live longer?

    Did you know that like Walmart, Medicare's cost reductions were much higher than the GAO estimated. They've saved MILLIONs by getting quantity discounts, and cost control.

    Walmart, in its buying in mass, can DOMINATE the market place, driving prices down for the masses. Mikeylikesit would do well to learn that very simple economics lesson from Walmart. Single payer makes GREAT SENSE.

    In India, it costs about $300 a year to provide for HIV treatment. Here, about $15,000.

    In Canada, insulin (Humalog U100) is $38.00, if you have to buy it, and over the counter. Here it's by perscription, and $108.50 at Walmart.

    In the U.S. an inhaler can be $130.00. In Cuba, that SAME INHALER is $0.05.

    Walmart recently introduced their Relion HBA1C test. At the doctor $90, or more for many. At Walmart: $9.00.

    Don't try to tell me health care isn't badly broken. It's very, very, broken.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 27, 2009 8:31 PM GMT
    chuckystud saidWe think more about bailing out rich banks (that money could have funded public health for 10 years), and propping up badly managed auto manufacturers than we do of saving our people. Something is very wrong with how we treat each other.


    Well said!

    But is it any surprise? I mean, for a "Christian" nation, we're sure all about the seven deadly sins...greed, gluttony, envy, etc. It's funny that "socialism" is such a dirty word, yet the socialist democracies of the world all have better quality of life, better health, lower rates of teen pregnancy, STDs, abortions, etc. But our way is the right way! Yeah, sure. It's greed, plain and simple. People can spin it any way they want, but the reality doesn't change.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 27, 2009 8:41 PM GMT
    One thing that about the science of statistics: it can be very revealing.

    Ever read the numbers on the French?

    Mandatory 5 week vacation, but, vastly more productive.
    In home doctor service (just like 911 for fire, or police, but, the doctor, too.)
    They live longer...they have lower infant mortality. They have less catastrophic illness.
    35 hour work week.

    Google Worldwide has a 80/20 rule: 80% work, and 20% fuck off. Most of Google's big projects are resultant of the fuck time. You'd think we'd learn, but, we seem to refuse that there ARE better ways of doing things. Stubborn, we are, I think.

    You know how the microchip got invented here at Texas Instruments in Dallas? Well, everyone else got two weeks off for plant closing, but, Jack Gilby had to work, so, during the two weeks no one else was working...he fucked off...and...invented the microchip, which got him a Nobel Prize and changed the modern world more than any other single invention. It wasn't about survival of the fittest,but about have some free time to be creative and productive. TRUE STORY.

    Stubborn, we are, I think.

    The attitude of folks like Mikeylikesit isn't saving us, it's holding us back. We need to evolve.