Edward Kennedy: Where's Mary Jo Kopechne's Eulogy?

  • swimbikerun

    Posts: 2835

    Aug 28, 2009 2:20 PM GMT

    One set of rules for us, another for them.

    "Not Far Under The Surface. Let’s say I am driving myself and a passenger in my car at night. I accidentally drive off a bridge into the water below. I am able to get out of the submerged vehicle but for some reason, I am unable to free the passenger. I gather two friends, a relative and my lawyer and return to the scene. We are unable to rescue the person trapped in the car. Several hours later, myself nor the two others I took to the site have called the authorities. In fact, it’s two fishermen who find the car the next morning as even then, no one has been called to the scene. The car is removed from the water and it is determined that its occupant is dead. This tragic incident is made international news by my circumstances. I am very well known, a United States senator. My family is incredibly powerful. There are allegations that I had been drinking heavily hours up to the time I got into the vehicle with the passenger. I deny this for the rest of my life. That at no point did I make an attempt to call for rescue would probably be considered by many people to be outrageous and horrible, perhaps a crime that would carry a prison sentence. Can you imagine what the parents of the deceased would be going through when they found out that their 28-year-old daughter died alone in total darkness? I serve no time. Not inconvenienced by the burdensome obstacle of incarceration, I seek to maintain my elected position. I am successful and remain a senator for the next four decades. Would any deed I performed in that time, besides going to prison for the negligent homicide I committed all those years ago, be enough to wipe the slate clean? After my passing, would you fail to mention the incident and the death of this innocent person in reviewing the events of my long and lauded life? You wouldn't forget about her, would you? That would be negligent."

    by Henry Rollins
    August 27, 2009, 10:57 AM
    http://www.vanityfair.com/online/politics/2009/08/wheres-mary-jo-kopechnes-eulogy.html#share-1000000000169180
  • training_guy

    Posts: 270

    Aug 28, 2009 8:23 PM GMT
    Exactly! My point entirely....
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    Aug 28, 2009 9:08 PM GMT
    Yep. I'm sure this also had a lot to do with him being the liberal Lion or what ever he was called. It's been all about him trying to relive his very own conscience. I'm also sure he would never of let a Republican get away with anything either. Things like this really make me wish there was a god, because he would be paying for it now; because he never paid his dews for it on this earth.icon_evil.gif
  • EricLA

    Posts: 3461

    Aug 28, 2009 9:30 PM GMT
    Pattison, I assume you mean "dues," as "dew" is water.

    And this in no way justifies his actions or serves as "dues," but he did live with the fact that three of his older brothers died in tragic ways -- one whose bomber exploded in air, and two by assailant bullets. I would guess that would weigh heavily on anyone, even if they were an Aussie in Oz.

    That said, the Mary Jo Kopechne episode is a sad one. His story doesn't make sense. He said they were headed to the ferry, but it was the opposite direction from where they were headed. The ferry was no longer running. And her purse and keys were back at the compound.

    Yes, it sounds like he got off because he was rich. Which is sad.

    But unlike a lot of rich douchebags, he did improve the world.

    This doesn't excuse or justify or absolve his actions of that night in any way. It leaves us with a very complicated portrait of one man who did one inexcusable act but also did countless good acts during the course of his life.

    There may be no way to ever reconcile these things.
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    Aug 28, 2009 10:57 PM GMT
    EricLA may it be dew, or dues, a lot of water was involved, and either way you know what one meant, and thats all that matters.

    As an Aussie living in Oz, can you please tell me how this man helped me, or other fellow Aussies or Australians, let alone the world? I'm sure even many Americans never benefited fro him either. None the less I do still feel his alleged acts of kindness, were self serving; Its a shame democrats do not have the ability to over look the sins or failures of members of the Republican party. When in fact the Democrats are not better, how many criminals did Bill Clinton pardon?

    The Curse of the Kennedy's:

    1941:
    Rosemary Kennedy has mental problems, and has a lobotomy. She remains in an institution for the rest of her life, and away from the public eye. The shame they must of felt.

    August 12, 1944:

    Joseph Kennedy Jr, eldest son of Joseph Kennedy, dies in mid air collision on a wartime mission, something even common families had to endure, and even our beloved Royalty the Windsors too. Put I'de rather be crying in the back of a Rolls Royce than laughing on a pushbike.

    !955-56:
    Jackie Kennedy suffers a miscarriage, her next baby is stillborn, and the third born prematurely dies two days latter after birth. In latter life she did her best to keep her children away from that family, the Kennedy's.

    November 22, 1963:

    President J. F. Kennedy, assassinated, allegedly by Harvey Oswald in Dallas. Yet it has been suggested many times. JFK, was involved in the death of Norma Jean baker too.

    June, 1964:
    Senator Edward Kennedy is involved in a plan crash.


    July 18 1968:

    Robert F Kennedy is shot dead in LA. Immediately after winning the California presidential election. I have read he had sex with anything if it stood still long enough, so I'm sure he would of ended in scandal too; and the list could go on.

    But it still amazes me how the american democrats are able and willing too over look the sins of their party members, yet are not willing to give an inch on the republicans, and even create things to justify their own hate.

    I truly wish I could as an Aussie living in Oz, turn a blind eye to American politics, but alas until America stops playing big brother, this si not a choice I have, as their actions do and can involve my country and people.

  • jarhead5536

    Posts: 1348

    Aug 28, 2009 11:01 PM GMT
    Odd that people that were likely not alive, or old enough to even remember the incident, are suddenly falling over themselves to dredge up this poor woman's story. Ted Kennedy spent a lifetime in act after act of redemption for his bad act. he will go down in history as one of the greatest Americans in history, up there with the Founders and Lincoln, eclipsing his older brothers handily with his legacy. His actions at Chappaquiddick cost him the Presidency and everyone knows it. Had he been drummed out of the Senate also we would be a poorer nation for it.

    If you hate liberals and liberalism just say so and stop denigrating this stellar American patriot before he is even cold in the ground...
  • swimbikerun

    Posts: 2835

    Aug 28, 2009 11:03 PM GMT
    EricLA saidPattison, I assume you mean "dues," as "dew" is water.

    And this in no way justifies his actions or serves as "dues," but he did live with the face that three of his older brothers died in tragic ways -- one whose bomber exploded in air, and two by assailant bullets. I would guess that would weigh heavily on anyone, even if they were an Aussie in Oz.

    That said, the Mary Jo Kopechne episode is a sad one. His story doesn't make sense. He said they were headed to the ferry, but it was the opposite direction from where they were headed. The ferry was no longer running. And her purse and keys were back at the compound.

    Yes, it sounds like he got off because he was rich. Which is sad.

    But unlike a lot of rich douchebags, he did improve the world.

    This doesn't excuse or justify or absolve his actions of that night in any way. It leaves us with a very complicated portrait of one man who did one inexcusable act but also did countless good acts during the course of his life.

    There may be no way to ever reconcile these things.
    Yes, I totally agree that many people who do a lot of good in this world are very often conflicting and complicated persons.
    Somehow, this episode, at least to me (and perhaps the girl's family?), really reflects deeply upon the character of the man.
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    Aug 28, 2009 11:12 PM GMT
    Most likely Mary Joe Kopechne's eulogy was given at Mary Joe Kopechne's funeral. Call me crazy but this is my assumption.
  • Menergy_1

    Posts: 737

    Aug 28, 2009 11:24 PM GMT
    UrsaMajor saidMost likely Mary Joe Kopechne's eulogy was given at Mary Joe Kopechne's funeral. Call me crazy but this is my assumption.

    That's my first reaction to the title, too....
  • swimbikerun

    Posts: 2835

    Aug 28, 2009 11:25 PM GMT
    UrsaMajor saidMost likely Mary Joe Kopechne's eulogy was given at Mary Joe Kopechne's funeral. Call me crazy but this is my assumption.

    eulogy-
    "a commendatory oration or writing especially in honor of one deceased "

    Speaking for Henry Rollins (always a dangerous task I'm sure) it would seem he was seeking a remembrance of her.

    jarhead5536 said

    If you hate liberals and liberalism just say so and stop denigrating this stellar American patriot before he is even cold in the ground...

    I'm often accused of being a liberal, so no, I don't hate liberals. Why is an attempt at getting a full portrait of the man equating hatred of all things "liberal" in your mind?

    Simply put, this is just a friendly reminder that although all men are equal under the law, some are clearly a little more equal than others.

    It would seem you're attacking the messenger rather than questioning a society that gives great privilege to a selected few.
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    Aug 28, 2009 11:33 PM GMT
    Yeah, I get why Henry Rollins is putting this out. It is consistent with what I know about his character. I don't think he was a friend of Senator Kennedy and I doubt Henry Rollins would've pissed on Ms. Kopechne is she were on fire. This keeps his name in the Google trendex. Personally I consider Senator Kennedy to have been far more of a beacon that Henry Rollins will ever be.

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    Aug 28, 2009 11:36 PM GMT
    Sorry, Mr. Rollins lost all respect from me when his ass got in front of a camera to advertise for the fucking GAP.

    Sell out, has been, ect. ect.
  • swimbikerun

    Posts: 2835

    Aug 28, 2009 11:37 PM GMT
    UrsaMajor saidYeah, I get why Henry Rollins is putting this out. It is consistent with what I know about his character. I don't think he was a friend of Senator Kennedy and I doubt Henry Rollins would've pissed on Ms. Kopechne is she were on fire. This keeps his name in the Google trendex. Personally I consider Senator Kennedy to have been far more of a beacon that Henry Rollins will ever be.

    Again, this is an 'ad hominem' attack against Rollins and giving no opinion about the described incident itself.

    "(logical fallacy) A fallacious objection to an argument or factual claim by appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim; an attempt to argue against an opponent's idea by discrediting the opponent himself."

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ad_hominem

    Hey, Kennedy had a privileged life, deep, deep sources of wealth, and access to the halls of power, unmatched by anyone posting on this board.

    Who's to say what others might have done with such an opportunity? No one is perfect but would you have abandoned someone after a car accident? Especially after the car had fallen into a river?

    Love the man, hate the man, but now upon his death is a time to reflect on the full measure of him, no?
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    Aug 28, 2009 11:49 PM GMT
    We all know that the rich get off Scott-free all the time. I don't know why Henry Rollins is mentioning this. If his ass was in the same situation, he would call his lawyer, etc. to get him out of it. He wouldn't honorably go to jail, and pay for what he did. Nobody would.

    Robert Blake nor O.J. (for killing Nicole Brown Simpson) have spent a day in jail for killing people. If I were worth a billion dollars and famous, I could walk out in the middle of the street and kill somebody in broad open daylight and get off with some community service or some crap like that. It is so ridiculous.
  • swimbikerun

    Posts: 2835

    Aug 28, 2009 11:53 PM GMT
    Balljunkie saidWe all know that the rich get off Scott-free all the time. I don't know why Henry Rollins is mentioning this. If his ass was in the same situation, he would call his lawyer, etc. to get him out of it. He wouldn't honorably go to jail, and pay for what he did. Nobody would.

    Robert Blake nor O.J. (for killing Nicole Brown Simpson) have spent a day in jail for killing people. If I were worth a billion dollars and famous, I could walk out in the middle of the street and kill somebody in broad open daylight and get off with some community service or some crap like that. It is so ridiculous.
    And it is painful to be reminded of this, no? People might think the United States, modern 21st Century country in the First World is really quite different from all societies that have come before.
    What kind of country would this be if all people really were equal before the law? Hmmm....

    The major difference between E. Kennedy and the others you mentioned is that the others were prosecuted and had trials by juries of their peers. At least a measure of the law touched them.
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    Aug 28, 2009 11:54 PM GMT
    Jack Kennedy fucked Marilyn Monroe. Yeah, sure, he had back problems after that. But she committed suicide.



  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 29, 2009 12:16 AM GMT
    swimbikerun said
    Balljunkie said
    And it is painful to be reminded of this, no? People might think the United States, modern 21st Century country in the First World is really quite different from all societies that have come before.
    What kind of country would this be if all people really were equal before the law? Hmmm....

    The major difference between E. Kennedy and the others you mentioned is that the others were prosecuted and had trials by juries of their peers. At least a measure of the law touched them.


    It isn't painful to be reminded of this because it is a fact of life and nothing is going to change. Rich and famous people can do anything they want to, and they won't be called on their shit. You know it, Henry Rollins knows it, and I know it. People will never be equal because of the ample resources allowed to the rich and famous.

    Ted Kennedy had to live with what happened for the rest of his life. O.J., after getting off, committed more crimes. Robert Blake is still Robert Blake. At least, Ted Kennedy took what happened and tried to make amends by doing good in the world instead of trying the accident again and again.
  • styrgan

    Posts: 2017

    Aug 29, 2009 12:28 AM GMT
    Balljunkie saidWe all know that the rich get off Scott-free all the time. I don't know why Henry Rollins is mentioning this. If his ass was in the same situation, he would call his lawyer, etc. to get him out of it. He wouldn't honorably go to jail, and pay for what he did. Nobody would.


    Yeah... it's not like any politicians take responsibility for anything unless they absolutely have to...

    However, I do know why everyone is bringing this up (except maybe for Henry Rollins). The Republicans don't want Ted Kennedy's death to be a rallying cry for health care reform the way that JFK's death was used to pass the Civil Rights Act in 1964. This is just a matter of character smearing for political purposes. There's no other logical reason to bring up tragic events that occurred 40 years ago.
  • swimbikerun

    Posts: 2835

    Aug 29, 2009 12:55 AM GMT
    styrgan saidThere's no other logical reason to bring up tragic events that occurred 40 years ago.

    Lol! Ok, NPR just read a listener's letter essentially saying the same thing that Rollins did: that it is their duty as journalists to present a balanced portrait of the man.
    To paraphrase, it cast a long shadow over his political career. He was found guilty of leaving the scene of an accident.

    You act as if it is sacreligious to even mention the fact that this occurred. Smearing would be painting a distortion of the actual events.
    And I am not a Republican. I don't know about Rollins.

    Balljunkie said
    It isn't painful to be reminded of this because it is a fact of life and nothing is going to change.

    Well, nothing ever will with an attitude like that.
  • styrgan

    Posts: 2017

    Aug 29, 2009 1:13 AM GMT
    swimbikerun saidLol! Ok, NPR just read a listener's letter essentially saying the same thing that Rollins did: that it is their duty as journalists to present a balanced portrait of the man.
    To paraphrase, it cast a long shadow over his political career. He was found guilty of leaving the scene of an accident.

    You act as if it is sacreligious to even mention the fact that this occurred. Smearing would be painting a distortion of the actual events.
    And I am not a Republican. I don't know about Rollins.


    Well, Rollins is quite liberal. He's actually a pretty huge advocate for gay rights (and pretty handsome). icon_razz.gif

    My comment was not really directed towards you or towards Rollins, though. Well, maybe towards you for starting the thread...

    I don't have a problem with it being mentioned. I don't think its sacrilege. I do think that exploring the issue all over again is inappropriate, and that's what the Republicans are trying to do.

    Smearing can be more than accusing someone of false charges; it could also be distorting the extent to which events occurred. I think taking events that occurred decades ago and painting them as the man's lasting contribution to the world is smearing.

    Other media outlets have put it in excellent perspective. I saw it in the New York Times maybe four or five pages into the coverage. But when I turn on Talk Radio, it's all I hear, as if it's all Ted Kennedy's life and legacy have boiled down to. That's what I have no patience for.
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    Aug 29, 2009 1:14 AM GMT
    SwimBikeRun Love the man, hate the man, but now upon his death is a time to reflect on the full measure of him, no?


    Like the incident hasn't been rehashed on its anniversary every year since it happened? Like it wasn't brought up every time Kennedy took a public stance on something Republicans opposed? Like it hasn't been written about constantly in the media again since his death?

    I have to wonder if Henry Rollins just woke up. The Chappaquiddick story has been told, retold and smeared in Kennedy's face so often for so long that the complaint that Mary Jo's eulogy needs to be heard sounds like a complaint from someone who hasn't been listening for decades.

    I think your point -- that there is one justice system for "them" and one for the rest of us -- has merit. But then again, there is one for ordinary white people like you and another for ordinary black people.

    There is one justice system for the lackeys at Abu Ghraib but another for the people in the White House who took us to war under false pretenses, resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands, and approved torture programs that violate the law and killed people. There is one for the corporations that conducted illegal eavesdropping and another for the voyeur in the park.

    As Styrgan says, the indignant replay of this story is mainly political in its motivation.
  • styrgan

    Posts: 2017

    Aug 29, 2009 1:27 AM GMT
    It was also just brought to my attention that I am possibly being "biased" in regards to how I handled Novak's death last week on here. I mean, the idea of someone being biased in a political debate is just unheard of...

    icon_rolleyes.gif

    But even when I was trashing Novak last week, I might have made a few quips about no one loving a guy called the "Prince of Darkness" - but I did not say that the leaking of Valerie Plame's covert status was all he would ever be remembered for. I didn't present that as being all there was to him.
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    Aug 29, 2009 1:38 AM GMT
    Of course, my attitude is sour. It you can't understand why, read Obscenewish's comment at 8:14. There are two justice systems. It has been that way, and it isn't going to change.
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    Aug 29, 2009 2:27 AM GMT
    saw a pbs special on the kennedys the other night.... that family was pure evil. joe kennedy bought everything for his sons... he bribed everyone he could to get them elected. he destroyed anyone who got in his way... pure evil and this is not from some republican smear machine... it was pbs
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    Aug 29, 2009 2:41 AM GMT
    No, he didn't serve time, but he DID face a judge, and he DID plead guilty. There is no argument that he did, in fact, commit a crime.

    The issue is that his sentence was suspended. And it's easy to say that the court let him off because of his wealth and fame. But that would not be an accurate picture, because it was not just the court who wanted to let him go; so did everybody else. And by "everybody else", I mean the people of Massachusetts, who overwhelmingly voted to keep him in office, as well as Kopechne's own parents, who chose not to pursue legal action.

    So, even though a simple reading of the facts now would seem to indicate to many (including myself) that he should have served time, the consensus at the time in Massachusetts was that he should not. And they were closer to it in time and distance than we are. I think that should not be discounted.