FORUMS > Spirituality Forum Rules

Chuckystud saidThe best leadership is often by example.

chuckystud saidEven if you don't agree with the believers of false belief systems, I don't think you should attack them in this way.

calibro said

chuckystud saidEven if you don't agree with the believers of false belief systems, I don't think you should attack them in this way.

i completely agree. you don't have to like what anyone else posts, but there is no need to create a thread to attack any rj member. if you have an issue with anyone, take it up with them privately. blasting it out for everyone is just a cruel manner to express yourself.

phemt saidoh come on. They believe people like us are going to burn in hell. If they think that of me surely I can have a little fun ridiculing them. The days of non-believers needing to be scraed of being burnt, kicked out of the community, or other such things for opposing their false belief systems are over.

Erikk saidHeaven sounds boring.

MynamemeansWarrior saidAfter reading many forums I would say the biggest nut job in general would be you phemt. It seems you love to attack other people and there beliefs. You're nothing more than a shit pot stirrer. Dude do something with your life besides sit at your computer and think of ways to attack people who believe different than you. We get it you're an atheist, big f..'n deal. You believe what you want and let every other person on RJ believe what they want. You attack Christians and act like they're trying to convert the world, when you yourself do nothing but squat on your atheist soap box thinking you're converting all RJ'ers. Here are some facts for you: You live in a country where 86% of the population considers themselves to be Christian. There are almost 200 times as many Christian houses of worship in this country than any other religious gathering places (ie Mosques, Synagogues). If you don't like to see religious themes on tv, shut it off, If you don't like to say "under God" during the pledge, don't. If you don't want to hear a prayer at the beginning of a sporting event, don't go, or go use the restroom or buy your food from the snack bar. There is no law in this country that says you have to believe a certain religion, so stop your whining and crying and attacking people. You have such a hangup with Christians why don't you start attacking Muslims, or Jews on this website??? O wait that would be politically incorrect. Maybe RJ should start allowing Homophobic and bigots on this website and allow them to make posts attacking gays because we are different. There is no difference in that and what you do constantly by attacking Christians who believe different then you. Phemt seriously, what are you doing with your life?

BrianOSU2000 saidIf I may respectfully offer some thoughts here, I see this sort of post as exactly the kind of thing that keeps the gay community from being as accepted by others as we want to be.

It seems to me that in order to be a "good gay" by some people's definitions, you should be a Liberal Democrat, Militant Environmentalist,Vegetarian or Vegan,Atheist who drives only a foreign car, is embarrassed by America and who verbally attacks anyone that doesn't believe exactly as you tell them to.

Well I'm sorry to tell you, but there are a great many of us who never will follow that line of thinking, and who refuse to be a part of the crowd, be it the "in crowd" or not. Attacking and denigrating the individual is not how you display leadership, nor is it how you earn respect in society.

I have absolutely no reservation in saying that I am a Christian and I am a Conservative. As such, I know my core values and why I believe what I do. The tough part about both of these doctrines is living what you believe, which is very difficult to do at times. The first responsibility of a Christian is to show the love of Christ as they are loved, and to mirror God's grace. Sadly, a great many of them aren't very good at this. As a Conservative, I do not believe in censoring speech or controlling thought. I will defend the right of my liberal friends to speak and believe as they want to. I have never wavered on this.

Furthermore I can tell you that "nut jobs" like The Reverend Fred Phelps, Jeremiah Wright and "NotThatOld"on here spewing venom about how "Darwinism is the foundation of racism" (Nonsense, that's giving racists an unfair pass for their own ignorant, stupid judgmentalism of others) do not speak for me now or ever.

People have free will to think and believe as they will. Disrespect, however, is not part of any freedom I know if and it's wrong whether it's political disrespect, religious disrespect, or personal disrespect. If you are a liberal, an atheist or whatever, good for you. If you wish to believe that my faith is a "false belief system" that's your choice and I respectfully disagree with that.

The irony for me here is that the gay community, which is by and large, populated by and run by liberals, professes to be so welcoming, accepting and open in theory. In practice however it's a different story. People look for reasons to judge, discriminate, attack and ridicule and columns like this one, borne of a pure hatred for the Christian Faith is a glittering example of this hypocrisy.

We need to stop labeling, judging and discriminating against each other and start with the fundamental truth that we are human beings first and foremost, and that each person is worthy of being treated with dignity and respect.

BrianOSU2000 saidIf I may respectfully offer some thoughts here, I see this sort of post as exactly the kind of thing that keeps the gay community from being as accepted by others as we want to be.

It seems to me that in order to be a "good gay" by some people's definitions, you should be a Liberal Democrat, Militant Environmentalist,Vegetarian or Vegan,Atheist who drives only a foreign car, is embarrassed by America and who verbally attacks anyone that doesn't believe exactly as you tell them to.

Well I'm sorry to tell you, but there are a great many of us who never will follow that line of thinking, and who refuse to be a part of the crowd, be it the "in crowd" or not. Attacking and denigrating the individual is not how you display leadership, nor is it how you earn respect in society.

I have absolutely no reservation in saying that I am a Christian and I am a Conservative. As such, I know my core values and why I believe what I do. The tough part about both of these doctrines is living what you believe, which is very difficult to do at times. The first responsibility of a Christian is to show the love of Christ as they are loved, and to mirror God's grace. Sadly, a great many of them aren't very good at this. As a Conservative, I do not believe in censoring speech or controlling thought. I will defend the right of my liberal friends to speak and believe as they want to. I have never wavered on this.

Furthermore I can tell you that "nut jobs" like The Reverend Fred Phelps, Jeremiah Wright and "NotThatOld"on here spewing venom about how "Darwinism is the foundation of racism" (Nonsense, that's giving racists an unfair pass for their own ignorant, stupid judgmentalism of others) do not speak for me now or ever.

People have free will to think and believe as they will. Disrespect, however, is not part of any freedom I know if and it's wrong whether it's political disrespect, religious disrespect, or personal disrespect. If you are a liberal, an atheist or whatever, good for you. If you wish to believe that my faith is a "false belief system" that's your choice and I respectfully disagree with that.

The irony for me here is that the gay community, which is by and large, populated by and run by liberals, professes to be so welcoming, accepting and open in theory. In practice however it's a different story. People look for reasons to judge, discriminate, attack and ridicule and columns like this one, borne of a pure hatred for the Christian Faith is a glittering example of this hypocrisy.

We need to stop labeling, judging and discriminating against each other and start with the fundamental truth that we are human beings first and foremost, and that each person is worthy of being treated with dignity and respect.

G_Force said People are entitled to believe and worship as they please without discrimnation and without any ridicule.

MynamemeansWarrior said Here are some facts for you: You live in a country where 86% of the population considers themselves to be Christian. There are almost 200 times as many Christian houses of worship in this country than any other religious gathering places (ie Mosques, Synagogues). If you don't like to see religious themes on tv, shut it off, If you don't like to say "under God" during the pledge, don't. If you don't want to hear a prayer at the beginning of a sporting event, don't go, or go use the restroom or buy your food from the snack bar. There is no law in this country that says you have to believe a certain religion, so stop your whining and crying and attacking people. You have such a hangup with Christians why don't you start attacking Muslims, or Jews on this website??? O wait that would be politically incorrect. Maybe RJ should start allowing Homophobic and bigots on this website and allow them to make posts attacking gays because we are different. There is no difference in that and what you do constantly by attacking Christians who believe different then you. Phemt seriously, what are you doing with your life?

BrianOSU2000 said...It seems to me that in order to be a "good gay" by some people's definitions, you should be a Liberal Democrat, Militant Environmentalist,Vegetarian or Vegan, Atheist who drives only a foreign car, is embarrassed by America and who verbally attacks anyone that doesn't believe exactly as you tell them to...

MynamemeansWarrior saidAfter reading many forums I would say the biggest nut job in general would be you phemt. It seems you love to attack other people and there beliefs. You're nothing more than a shit pot stirrer. Dude do something with your life besides sit at your computer and think of ways to attack people who believe different than you. We get it you're an atheist, big f..'n deal. You believe what you want and let every other person on RJ believe what they want. You attack Christians and act like they're trying to convert the world, when you yourself do nothing but squat on your atheist soap box thinking you're converting all RJ'ers. Here are some facts for you: You live in a country where 86% of the population considers themselves to be Christian. There are almost 200 times as many Christian houses of worship in this country than any other religious gathering places (ie Mosques, Synagogues). If you don't like to see religious themes on tv, shut it off, If you don't like to say "under God" during the pledge, don't. If you don't want to hear a prayer at the beginning of a sporting event, don't go, or go use the restroom or buy your food from the snack bar. There is no law in this country that says you have to believe a certain religion, so stop your whining and crying and attacking people. You have such a hangup with Christians why don't you start attacking Muslims, or Jews on this website??? O wait that would be politically incorrect. Maybe RJ should start allowing Homophobic and bigots on this website and allow them to make posts attacking gays because we are different. There is no difference in that and what you do constantly by attacking Christians who believe different then you. Phemt seriously, what are you doing with your life?

calibro said

chuckystud saidEven if you don't agree with the believers of false belief systems, I don't think you should attack them in this way.

i completely agree. you don't have to like what anyone else posts, but there is no need to create a thread to attack any rj member. if you have an issue with anyone, take it up with them privately. blasting it out for everyone is just a cruel manner to express yourself.

calibro said

MynamemeansWarrior said Here are some facts for you: You live in a country where 86% of the population considers themselves to be Christian. There are almost 200 times as many Christian houses of worship in this country than any other religious gathering places (ie Mosques, Synagogues). If you don't like to see religious themes on tv, shut it off, If you don't like to say "under God" during the pledge, don't. If you don't want to hear a prayer at the beginning of a sporting event, don't go, or go use the restroom or buy your food from the snack bar. There is no law in this country that says you have to believe a certain religion, so stop your whining and crying and attacking people. You have such a hangup with Christians why don't you start attacking Muslims, or Jews on this website??? O wait that would be politically incorrect. Maybe RJ should start allowing Homophobic and bigots on this website and allow them to make posts attacking gays because we are different. There is no difference in that and what you do constantly by attacking Christians who believe different then you. Phemt seriously, what are you doing with your life?

Actually, you don't have that right. "Under god" or "In God We Trust" were never originally in the pledge or on our currency... they only debuted in the Red Scare when people went psycho about the fear communists would destroy religion. Second, your logic is equivalent to saying that if blacks don't want to ride on the back of the bus, they don't have to ride at all. Prayer at a sporting event, mentioning of god in a country's pledge, etc... have no place dealing with religion. And frankly, the Christian religion gets a hell of a lot more leeway than any other. I don't think you'd ever hear a Muslim prayer at a football game.

G_Force said

calibro said

MynamemeansWarrior said Here are some facts for you: You live in a country where 86% of the population considers themselves to be Christian. There are almost 200 times as many Christian houses of worship in this country than any other religious gathering places (ie Mosques, Synagogues). If you don't like to see religious themes on tv, shut it off, If you don't like to say "under God" during the pledge, don't. If you don't want to hear a prayer at the beginning of a sporting event, don't go, or go use the restroom or buy your food from the snack bar. There is no law in this country that says you have to believe a certain religion, so stop your whining and crying and attacking people. You have such a hangup with Christians why don't you start attacking Muslims, or Jews on this website??? O wait that would be politically incorrect. Maybe RJ should start allowing Homophobic and bigots on this website and allow them to make posts attacking gays because we are different. There is no difference in that and what you do constantly by attacking Christians who believe different then you. Phemt seriously, what are you doing with your life?

Actually, you don't have that right. "Under god" or "In God We Trust" were never originally in the pledge or on our currency... they only debuted in the Red Scare when people went psycho about the fear communists would destroy religion. Second, your logic is equivalent to saying that if blacks don't want to ride on the back of the bus, they don't have to ride at all. Prayer at a sporting event, mentioning of god in a country's pledge, etc... have no place dealing with religion. And frankly, the Christian religion gets a hell of a lot more leeway than any other. I don't think you'd ever hear a Muslim prayer at a football game.

If the people who sponsor a sporting event want to have a prayer at the event, it is their perfect right to do so. If the people who are sponsoring an event, want to have the pledge of allegiance, these are their rights to so.

rotabilis said

calibro said

chuckystud saidEven if you don't agree with the believers of false belief systems, I don't think you should attack them in this way.

i completely agree. you don't have to like what anyone else posts, but there is no need to create a thread to attack any rj member. if you have an issue with anyone, take it up with them privately. blasting it out for everyone is just a cruel manner to express yourself.

What Calibro said. As skeptical as I am of religion, and as opposed as I am to fundamentalist views/policies, I say nevertheless that to start a thread specifically to belittle individual members by name is just wrong. I don't care WHAT they believe or WHAT things they've said. It is inexcusably bad manners. I would ask the OP to be a man and retract it altogether.

G_Force said

phemt saidoh come on. They believe people like us are going to burn in hell. If they think that of me surely I can have a little fun ridiculing them. The days of non-believers needing to be scraed of being burnt, kicked out of the community, or other such things for opposing their false belief systems are over.

you can have whatever belief or no belief you want.

MynamemeansWarrior said ... Dude do something with your life besides sit at your computer ... Phemt seriously, what are you doing with your life?

BrianOSU2000 saidIf I may offer a word here in support of the OP. I too live in Chicago, and you cannot walk State Street without being harangued by at least one, if not more "religious" people with loudspeakers who berate literally everyone who walks past them, screaming about hell-fire and brimstone and in effect, passing judgment on them. These people profess the Lord, but I sincerely doubt they possess the Lord in their hearts. Unfortunately there's a lot of that going on in the Christian Community. It's easier to beat people up than to show kindness I guess.

I had one of these people get in my face and say "your money, Mr. Millionaire is going to send you to hell unless you repent". Having had enough of this faux "religion" I said to him "Fine...what's YOUR sin that YOU need to repent of?" to which he replied "I have none". I told him that when he could walk across Burnham Harbor without getting wet and change my Aquafina into a nice Merlot, THEN we'd talk. I am far from a millionaire incidentally.

As a Christian, I resent behavior like these irresponsible "religious" loudmouths exhibit. They are turning more people away from faith than they are drawing to it. My choice is to be a man of quiet, unshakable faith and to use that faith to be compassionate and kind to others, not to use it as a weapon to make others feel somehow "less than". The world already makes people feel bad enough about themselves.

I too am opposed to any theocracy in our government and for the separation of church and state. The last thing we need is to combine the two. I don't want Harry Reid telling me what to worship and how, nor do I want Jimmy Swaggart establishing laws.

Common sense and respect go a long way here.

phemt said

MynamemeansWarrior said ... Dude do something with your life besides sit at your computer ... Phemt seriously, what are you doing with your life?

I am hardly one of the most frequent posters on here. My post total is under 500. I notice several guys on here have 2,000+ posts. Are you also going to tell them to go do something with their life besides sitting at their computer? You have no clue what people do with their life outside of their posts. If you want to attack mine or someone's post fine, but unless you know anything about how we spend our private life - SHUT THE FUCK UP!

MynamemeansWarrior said

phemt said

MynamemeansWarrior said ... Dude do something with your life besides sit at your computer ... Phemt seriously, what are you doing with your life?

I am hardly one of the most frequent posters on here. My post total is under 500. I notice several guys on here have 2,000+ posts. Are you also going to tell them to go do something with their life besides sitting at their computer? You have no clue what people do with their life outside of their posts. If you want to attack mine or someone's post fine, but unless you know anything about how we spend our private life - SHUT THE FUCK UP!

Unless you KNOW something about living as a Christian then SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!!! Since you currently are not a Christian don't criticize those who are. Feel free to criticize athiests all day.

MynamemeansWarrior said"Keep those beliefs to yourself!" - Phemt

AMEN to that!!!!!!!!!!!!! and that goes for Athiest and their beliefs as well!!

MynamemeansWarrior said

phemt said

MynamemeansWarrior said ... Dude do something with your life besides sit at your computer ... Phemt seriously, what are you doing with your life?

I am hardly one of the most frequent posters on here. My post total is under 500. I notice several guys on here have 2,000+ posts. Are you also going to tell them to go do something with their life besides sitting at their computer? You have no clue what people do with their life outside of their posts. If you want to attack mine or someone's post fine, but unless you know anything about how we spend our private life - SHUT THE FUCK UP!

Unless you KNOW something about living as a Christian then SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!!! Since you currently are not a Christian don't criticize those who are. Feel free to criticize athiests all day.

chuckystud saidEven if you don't agree with the believers of false belief systems, I don't think you should attack them in this way.

MynamemeansWarrior said Feel free to criticize athiests all day.

Lostboy saidMove to Europe. It´s wonderful. Only about 2% of the population are evangelicals (give or take, depending on the country- Spain has a wonderful 0.2) and they generally have the decency to be embarrassed about it. Many countries have almost no catholic church to speak of, and religion has pretty much no influence on politics.

Lostboy saidMove to Europe. It´s wonderful. Only about 2% of the population are evangelicals (give or take, depending on the country- Spain has a wonderful 0.2) and they generally have the decency to be embarrassed about it. Many countries have almost no catholic church to speak of, and religion has pretty much no influence on politics.

SO looking forward to that again

phemt said

BrianOSU2000 saidIf I may offer a word here in support of the OP. I too live in Chicago, and you cannot walk State Street without being harangued by at least one, if not more "religious" people with loudspeakers who berate literally everyone who walks past them, screaming about hell-fire and brimstone and in effect, passing judgment on them. These people profess the Lord, but I sincerely doubt they possess the Lord in their hearts. Unfortunately there's a lot of that going on in the Christian Community. It's easier to beat people up than to show kindness I guess.

I had one of these people get in my face and say "your money, Mr. Millionaire is going to send you to hell unless you repent". Having had enough of this faux "religion" I said to him "Fine...what's YOUR sin that YOU need to repent of?" to which he replied "I have none". I told him that when he could walk across Burnham Harbor without getting wet and change my Aquafina into a nice Merlot, THEN we'd talk. I am far from a millionaire incidentally.

As a Christian, I resent behavior like these irresponsible "religious" loudmouths exhibit. They are turning more people away from faith than they are drawing to it. My choice is to be a man of quiet, unshakable faith and to use that faith to be compassionate and kind to others, not to use it as a weapon to make others feel somehow "less than". The world already makes people feel bad enough about themselves.

I too am opposed to any theocracy in our government and for the separation of church and state. The last thing we need is to combine the two. I don't want Harry Reid telling me what to worship and how, nor do I want Jimmy Swaggart establishing laws.

Common sense and respect go a long way here.

Thank you for realizing where I am coming from. Do I sometimes have a knee jerk reaction against Christians - yes. I realize that not all Christians are hateful. If more Christians showed their faith thru acts of kindness instead of yelling and downgrading others I wouldn't take such issue with them. Also, great to hear as a Christian you also support the Seperation of CHurch and State. The Seperation is to the benefit of both believers and non-believers. Throughout the history of Seperation of Church and State it is often people of faith that first express concern about having others imposing beliefs/practices on them. For example, it was a letter from Baptists which lead Thomas Jefferson to express his strong views supporting "the Wall of Seperation between Church and State". Though what often I hear Christians telling me to "go to another country" if I don't apporve of the Christian Majority. I wish they understood the history of Seperation of Church and State better.

BrianOSU2000 said Being a Christian is much more involved than so many who profess to be as such realize. Not the least of which is those who are Christian who profess and practice a hatred of Jewish People. How colossally ignorant. How on Earth can you identify yourself as a Chrisitan and hate anyone, much less Jewish people, when in fact the Savior was Jewish?

jprichva said

BrianOSU2000 said Being a Christian is much more involved than so many who profess to be as such realize. Not the least of which is those who are Christian who profess and practice a hatred of Jewish People. How colossally ignorant. How on Earth can you identify yourself as a Chrisitan and hate anyone, much less Jewish people, when in fact the Savior was Jewish?

The founders of Christianity, themselves Jewish,. demonized Jews for three reasons:
1) It was at the time a competing, and more dominant faith.
2) It still had a strong pull on the newly-converted. One of the reasons for claiming that the Torah's rules were no longer binding was to help wrench the new Christians away from the rituals that had defined them as Jews.
3) There was a fair amount of anger at the Jews who refused to agree about Christ's divinity. For one thing, it kept the new movement from growing even faster; for another, it called into question these new beliefs---i.e., if the old religion still held such a pull over the people, could the new Christians really make a claim for the 'universality' of Christian belief?

There was no single decision made to demonize Jews, but a number of the early church founders (Saul of Tarsus particularly, who changed his name to something---oh yeah, Paul) were singularly inventive and vicious in their denunciation. Many of the things Jews have been accused of for centuries by Christians were originally said by him.

Oh, and about 20 years ago, Pope John Paul II apologized for all that. I'm sure he thought that made up for everything.

calibro said

MynamemeansWarrior said Here are some facts for you: You live in a country where 86% of the population considers themselves to be Christian. There are almost 200 times as many Christian houses of worship in this country than any other religious gathering places (ie Mosques, Synagogues). If you don't like to see religious themes on tv, shut it off, If you don't like to say "under God" during the pledge, don't. If you don't want to hear a prayer at the beginning of a sporting event, don't go, or go use the restroom or buy your food from the snack bar. There is no law in this country that says you have to believe a certain religion, so stop your whining and crying and attacking people. You have such a hangup with Christians why don't you start attacking Muslims, or Jews on this website??? O wait that would be politically incorrect. Maybe RJ should start allowing Homophobic and bigots on this website and allow them to make posts attacking gays because we are different. There is no difference in that and what you do constantly by attacking Christians who believe different then you. Phemt seriously, what are you doing with your life?

Actually, you don't have that right. "Under god" or "In God We Trust" were never originally in the pledge or on our currency... they only debuted in the Red Scare when people went psycho about the fear communists would destroy religion. Second, your logic is equivalent to saying that if blacks don't want to ride on the back of the bus, they don't have to ride at all. Prayer at a sporting event, mentioning of god in a country's pledge, etc... have no place dealing with religion. And frankly, the Christian religion gets a hell of a lot more leeway than any other. I don't think you'd ever hear a Muslim prayer at a football game.

jprichva said

MynamemeansWarrior said Feel free to criticize athiests all day.

Feel free to learn to spell.

theatrengym said

calibro said

MynamemeansWarrior said Here are some facts for you: You live in a country where 86% of the population considers themselves to be Christian. There are almost 200 times as many Christian houses of worship in this country than any other religious gathering places (ie Mosques, Synagogues). If you don't like to see religious themes on tv, shut it off, If you don't like to say "under God" during the pledge, don't. If you don't want to hear a prayer at the beginning of a sporting event, don't go, or go use the restroom or buy your food from the snack bar. There is no law in this country that says you have to believe a certain religion, so stop your whining and crying and attacking people. You have such a hangup with Christians why don't you start attacking Muslims, or Jews on this website??? O wait that would be politically incorrect. Maybe RJ should start allowing Homophobic and bigots on this website and allow them to make posts attacking gays because we are different. There is no difference in that and what you do constantly by attacking Christians who believe different then you. Phemt seriously, what are you doing with your life?

Actually, you don't have that right. "Under god" or "In God We Trust" were never originally in the pledge or on our currency... they only debuted in the Red Scare when people went psycho about the fear communists would destroy religion. Second, your logic is equivalent to saying that if blacks don't want to ride on the back of the bus, they don't have to ride at all. Prayer at a sporting event, mentioning of god in a country's pledge, etc... have no place dealing with religion. And frankly, the Christian religion gets a hell of a lot more leeway than any other. I don't think you'd ever hear a Muslim prayer at a football game.

Well, calibro, you're quite right that "Under God" wasn't originally in the Pledge of Allegiance and that "In God We Trust" wasn't originally on our currency. I wish more people knew those facts.

Still, in defense of MynamemeansWarrior, I don't think he ever said they were so he wasn't wrong in what he posted. He may well have believed that they were (and in his responses to you, he himself hasn't posted that he never said those things so he probably did believe that they were), but he didn't post to that effect.

I do wish that the myth that this country was founded as a Christian country would disappear. It most definitely wasn't, and the Founding Fathers would surely be appalled to see that professions of religious belief have become necessary to be elected to the presidency and many other offices.

phemt saidWhat are some strange views you read "Christians try to defend on the forums?

One I noticed is NotThatOld. He doesn't seem to post all that often but when he does it is sometimes really "out there". He recently stated that Catholics are not Christian. Sorry G_force, I often disgree with you, but you have to be runner-up on this one.

Note: Subject title has been changed.

Caesarea4 saidtheatrengym> ...
theatrengym> the Founding Fathers would surely be appalled to see that professions of religious belief have become necessary to be elected to the presidency and many other offices.

Not necessarily. There was some discussion whether non-Christians could be trusted to take oaths of office and serve. I believe at the end they concluded that it was OK for Jews and Musselmen (as Muslims were known then) since they believed in the same God. But non-believers... that was frowned upon but I don't remember exactly what was concluded.

Then again, who said the Founding Fathers were perfect?

MynamemeansWarrior saidare u that petty?? grow up man. seriously. I didn't kno that in the rules of the forum everything had to be typed 100% accurate to the English language, especially when typing fast and there is no spell check. I would love to have no life like you and just sit and "criticize" every word people misspell in this forum but I sir am far to busy to waste any more of my time with the likes of you.

jprichva said

MynamemeansWarrior saidare u that petty?? grow up man. seriously. I didn't kno that in the rules of the forum everything had to be typed 100% accurate to the English language, especially when typing fast and there is no spell check. I would love to have no life like you and just sit and "criticize" every word people misspell in this forum but I sir am far to busy to waste any more of my time with the likes of you.

Actually, you pathetic clown, I almost never correct anyone's spelling. But since you're so free to criticize, I thought you'd enjoy a little criticism of your own.

As to having no life----um, I don't see a picture of you, closet case.

Caesarea4 saidtheatrengym> when he was dying, it was months before any clergyman would agree to give [Alexander Hamilton] the last rites because of his reputation as an irreligious man.

Hamilton was killed by Aaron Burr in a duel, so that doesn't quite add up.


theatrengym> the Founding Fathers would surely be appalled to see that professions of religious belief have become necessary to be elected to the presidency and many other offices.

Not necessarily. There was some discussion whether non-Christians could be trusted to take oaths of office and serve. I believe at the end they concluded that it was OK for Jews and Musselmen (as Muslims were known then) since they believed in the same God. But non-believers... that was frowned upon but I don't remember exactly what was concluded.

Then again, who said the Founding Fathers were perfect?

Blackguy4you said

theatrengym said

calibro said

MynamemeansWarrior said Here are some facts for you: You live in a country where 86% of the population considers themselves to be Christian. There are almost 200 times as many Christian houses of worship in this country than any other religious gathering places (ie Mosques, Synagogues). If you don't like to see religious themes on tv, shut it off, If you don't like to say "under God" during the pledge, don't. If you don't want to hear a prayer at the beginning of a sporting event, don't go, or go use the restroom or buy your food from the snack bar. There is no law in this country that says you have to believe a certain religion, so stop your whining and crying and attacking people. You have such a hangup with Christians why don't you start attacking Muslims, or Jews on this website??? O wait that would be politically incorrect. Maybe RJ should start allowing Homophobic and bigots on this website and allow them to make posts attacking gays because we are different. There is no difference in that and what you do constantly by attacking Christians who believe different then you. Phemt seriously, what are you doing with your life?

Actually, you don't have that right. "Under god" or "In God We Trust" were never originally in the pledge or on our currency... they only debuted in the Red Scare when people went psycho about the fear communists would destroy religion. Second, your logic is equivalent to saying that if blacks don't want to ride on the back of the bus, they don't have to ride at all. Prayer at a sporting event, mentioning of god in a country's pledge, etc... have no place dealing with religion. And frankly, the Christian religion gets a hell of a lot more leeway than any other. I don't think you'd ever hear a Muslim prayer at a football game.

Well, calibro, you're quite right that "Under God" wasn't originally in the Pledge of Allegiance and that "In God We Trust" wasn't originally on our currency. I wish more people knew those facts.

Still, in defense of MynamemeansWarrior, I don't think he ever said they were so he wasn't wrong in what he posted. He may well have believed that they were (and in his responses to you, he himself hasn't posted that he never said those things so he probably did believe that they were), but he didn't post to that effect.

I do wish that the myth that this country was founded as a Christian country would disappear. It most definitely wasn't, and the Founding Fathers would surely be appalled to see that professions of religious belief have become necessary to be elected to the presidency and many other offices.

That may be so, but aren't most of our laws based on judeo/christian principles?

calibro said regardless of your religion, most people think murder is wrong.

McGay said"People are entitled to believe and worship as they please without discrimnation and without any ridicule."

Incorrect. People are entitled to believe and worship without discrimination. Ridicule is a whole other ball of wax. People have the right to ridicule what they deem ridiculous.

jprichva said

G_Force said People are entitled to believe and worship as they please without discrimnation and without any ridicule.

Well, no. People are entitled to believe as they choose, but no one is immune from ridicule. I don't ridicule believers, because I couldn't care less. Worship whatever you like, it doesn't bother me----kind of like how gay marriages don't have any effect on straight marriages.

But I don't like sanctimony. No one is immune from ridicule.

phemt saidNote: I have changed the Topic title to tone things down.

Making this clear so people will not try to say I am trying to "hide" the orginal post. Every fire eventully simmers down.

Caesarea4 saidThanks for clarifying about Hamilton.

Caesarea4 said
Madison, in 1774, successfully reacted to a handful of people's arrest (for publishing religious views which contradicted the positions of the Anglican Church, which was the official Church of Virginia) with a Declaration of Rights that included the "free exercise of religion", but his attempt to disestablish the Anglican Church failed.

Patrick "give me liberty or give me death" Henry introduced a "Bill Establishing a Provision for Teachers of the Christian Religion" (strongly opposed by Madison; it was defeated after - with Madison's help - Henry became governor of Virginia and could no longer himself argue for the measure).

Religious tests were common until Article 6 was drafted (1787). So "we" won. But not all of the "Founding Fathers" agreed with this. Like I said, they weren't perfect, though some were more perfect than others. (:

G_Force said I disagree. I don't think it's right for a gay man to be ridiculed because he is gay and at my work place anyone who does this is told to stop it and if he continues he is fired from his job. No one should be subjected to ridicule for ANY REASON because that is harassement.

jprichva said

G_Force said I disagree. I don't think it's right for a gay man to be ridiculed because he is gay and at my work place anyone who does this is told to stop it and if he continues he is fired from his job. No one should be subjected to ridicule for ANY REASON because that is harassement.

Sorry, that's bizarre. Ridicule is harassment? Exactly where did you come up with this theory?

Everyone's a poor victim nowadays. Geez.

G_Force said At my place of employment ridicule of others because of race, religion, or sexual orientation is forbidden and it comes under the section regarding harrasement. Yes, my employers does consider ridicule of a person's sexual orientation, his religion or his race as a form of harrasement and they have disciplined and even fired people for doing this. There was this one guy who constanty was making jokes about gays and because he continued to do this after being warned several times, they fired him. Yes, they will fire you for ridiculing gays, someone's religion, or their race because my employer does consider this to be harrasement in the work place and they do not tolerate this. Whether it's harrasement or not, it is wrong to do this anywhere and I know most employers will not tolerate such behavior. Ridicule is a very childish action.

chuckystud saidBottom line is that I wouldn't have the nut cases work for me, in the first place, any more than I'd hire smokers.

Employers have every right to make a culture that THEY want. That's what FREE enterprise is all about. Freedom of choice: it cuts both ways.

Blackguy4you saidThat may be so, but aren't most of our laws based on judeo/christian principles?

G_Force said

McGay said"People are entitled to believe and worship as they please without discrimnation and without any ridicule."

Incorrect. People are entitled to believe and worship without discrimination. Ridicule is a whole other ball of wax. People have the right to ridicule what they deem ridiculous.

So are you saying it's ok for people to ridicule gays, if they deem that homosexualiy is ridiculous? I don't think that's what you want to say. Even if others think that homosexuality is ridiculous, they should not ridicule gays.

mickeytopogigio saidI know this has been answered by others above, but this point keeps coming up, and it's become part of U.S. mythology.

The first four commandments handed to Moses dealt purely with Yah and his preeminence. The other laws (covetousness, false witness, adultery, dishonoring your parents) have had little impact on our laws. Only killing and stealing have any reflection in U.S. law (or any civilized nation's law). That's only twenty percent of The Law.

Our U.S. Constitution and state laws far exceed the principles enshrined by the Torah. Rape, incest, slavery, pollution, discrimination, fraud, drunk driving, arson and cock fighting are a small representation of bad things the bible never thought to mention, and certainly forbidding them forms a much more moral foundation.

Hell, if Moses hadn't blown almost half his wad on making sure poor Yah got his props, Judeo-Christianity might actually have espoused more actual morality.

Caesarea4 saidtheatrengym> Jefferson later wrote that the proposal "was rejected by a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination."

What about non-believers, those of no denomination, who today we call atheists?

chuckystud saidEven if you don't agree with the believers of false belief systems, I don't think you should attack them in this way.

MSUBioNerd saidActually, most of our laws aren't based off of Judeo-Christian values. That's a common misconception.

While many of our laws prohibit things which are prohibited in the Bible, they do so because these prohibitions are essential to having a civilization, and they existed in essentially all societies before they were brought into contact with Jews of Christians. You basically can't have a functioning civilization when there is no prohibition against murder or theft or lying to the legal authorities. Murder and theft and the like were already illegal in China, and in India, and among the vast majority of the New World Indian nations, etc well before any Christian or Jewish missionaries made it to these lands.

If you want to make the case that our laws were founded upon Christian values (in general, Christian got turned into Judeo-Christian in commonly parlance after WWII), you would need to have a lot of laws which align with Christian prohibitions but which do not align with non-Christian prohibitions. And most of the unique laws to the faith, as recorded in the Old Testament in particular, do not have counterparts in the American legal system. There is no law against working seven days a week, nor against consuming shellfish, nor a requirement that farmers allow widows to glean grain from their fields. I am fully allowed to wear clothing made from the fibers of more than one plant. These are the laws that separate Judeo-Christian laws from those of other groups...and they are not what our country was founded upon.

calibro said

Blackguy4you said

theatrengym said

calibro said

MynamemeansWarrior said Here are some facts for you: You live in a country where 86% of the population considers themselves to be Christian. There are almost 200 times as many Christian houses of worship in this country than any other religious gathering places (ie Mosques, Synagogues). If you don't like to see religious themes on tv, shut it off, If you don't like to say "under God" during the pledge, don't. If you don't want to hear a prayer at the beginning of a sporting event, don't go, or go use the restroom or buy your food from the snack bar. There is no law in this country that says you have to believe a certain religion, so stop your whining and crying and attacking people. You have such a hangup with Christians why don't you start attacking Muslims, or Jews on this website??? O wait that would be politically incorrect. Maybe RJ should start allowing Homophobic and bigots on this website and allow them to make posts attacking gays because we are different. There is no difference in that and what you do constantly by attacking Christians who believe different then you. Phemt seriously, what are you doing with your life?

Actually, you don't have that right. "Under god" or "In God We Trust" were never originally in the pledge or on our currency... they only debuted in the Red Scare when people went psycho about the fear communists would destroy religion. Second, your logic is equivalent to saying that if blacks don't want to ride on the back of the bus, they don't have to ride at all. Prayer at a sporting event, mentioning of god in a country's pledge, etc... have no place dealing with religion. And frankly, the Christian religion gets a hell of a lot more leeway than any other. I don't think you'd ever hear a Muslim prayer at a football game.

Well, calibro, you're quite right that "Under God" wasn't originally in the Pledge of Allegiance and that "In God We Trust" wasn't originally on our currency. I wish more people knew those facts.

Still, in defense of MynamemeansWarrior, I don't think he ever said they were so he wasn't wrong in what he posted. He may well have believed that they were (and in his responses to you, he himself hasn't posted that he never said those things so he probably did believe that they were), but he didn't post to that effect.

I do wish that the myth that this country was founded as a Christian country would disappear. It most definitely wasn't, and the Founding Fathers would surely be appalled to see that professions of religious belief have become necessary to be elected to the presidency and many other offices.

That may be so, but aren't most of our laws based on judeo/christian principles?

The laws he have are not based on them, but derived from the same moral compass as all religions and humanity, i.e., regardless of your religion, most people think murder is wrong. Murder is not a crime just because it was in the bible. Embezzlement, money laundering, loitering, and guns laws are not in the bible.

mickeytopogigio said

Blackguy4you saidThat may be so, but aren't most of our laws based on judeo/christian principles?

I know this has been answered by others above, but this point keeps coming up, and it's become part of U.S. mythology.

The first four commandments handed to Moses dealt purely with Yah and his preeminence. The other laws (covetousness, false witness, adultery, dishonoring your parents) have had little impact on our laws. Only killing and stealing have any reflection in U.S. law (or any civilized nation's law). That's only twenty percent of The Law.

Our U.S. Constitution and state laws far exceed the principles enshrined by the Torah. Rape, incest, slavery, pollution, discrimination, fraud, drunk driving, arson and cock fighting are a small representation of bad things the bible never thought to mention, and certainly forbidding them forms a much more moral foundation.

Hell, if Moses hadn't blown almost half his wad on making sure poor Yah got his props, Judeo-Christianity might actually have espoused more actual morality.

G_Force saidAt my work the same is true when it comes to religious beliefs. They will not allow anyone to ridicule others because of their religious faith or belief. In fact anyone who continues to do this after being told to stop, is also fired from their job. You can try to justify the ridicule of others, but if it's not tolerated in the work place, it should not be tolerated here either. Ridicule of others, no matter for what reason, is UNACCEPTABLE BEAHAVIOR. It is very unloving and if it's not toerated in places of employment, it should not be tolerated here either.

Expressing a difference in belief is NOT ridicule. But there is never a time when ridicule of a person is ever acceptable behavior. If you don't like what someone is doing , tell him so and why. But you should never ridicule him. Ridicule is a CHILDISH BEHAVIOR, not something adults should be doing.

creature said

chuckystud saidEven if you don't agree with the believers of false belief systems, I don't think you should attack them in this way.

Thank you, chuckystud.

I know I told myself not to participate in a religious thread, but I have to ask you, phemt, why are you making it such a crusade to go knocking Christianity. You know there are other religions in this world, some of which have been extinct.

I hope you don't get offended, but I have to say that you come across as someone with a chip on their shoulder. At least with chuckystud, I am convinced he will defend his beliefs against any religion — Christianity, Islamic, Judaic, Hinduism, Ancient Egyptian, etc... But for some reason, you seem to single out Christians.

There's more to religion than Christianity — in the past, present, and future.

Blackguy4you said Our laws are based on English common laws which themselves are based on judeo/christian principles.
Perhaps a lawyer amongst us can shed some light

Treaty of Tripoli (1797)As the Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the law, religion or tranquility of Musselman [Muslims]; and as the states never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mohometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever produce an interruption of harmony existing between the two countries.

Blackguy4you said

Don't tell me you all are really expecting the Torah or Bible to have a precedent for every single law that exists in our present day society?

Then again they do: read the 10 commandments carefully and you will see they are enshrined therein.

Do not kill
Do not steal
Do not bear false witness
Do not covet.

MSUBioNerd said

MynamemeansWarrior said

phemt said

MynamemeansWarrior said ... Dude do something with your life besides sit at your computer ... Phemt seriously, what are you doing with your life?

I am hardly one of the most frequent posters on here. My post total is under 500. I notice several guys on here have 2,000+ posts. Are you also going to tell them to go do something with their life besides sitting at their computer? You have no clue what people do with their life outside of their posts. If you want to attack mine or someone's post fine, but unless you know anything about how we spend our private life - SHUT THE FUCK UP!

Unless you KNOW something about living as a Christian then SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!!! Since you currently are not a Christian don't criticize those who are. Feel free to criticize athiests all day.

Quite frankly, this is an absurd argument. Let's apply it to the following:

Since you are not a Democrat/Republican, don't criticize those who are.

Since you are not a murderer, don't criticize those who are.

Since you are not a reality show contestant, don't criticize those who are.

Since you are not someone who stands dates up, don't criticize those who are.

phemt could certainly use some tact, but it is outrageous to argue that the only people who are allowed to criticize a group are members of that group.

MSUBioNerd said

It is fair game to criticize actions of other people, even when they are part of a group that is different than you. For example, I find it quite rude when people don't clean up after their dog's waste when they take it for a walk. As such, I will criticize people I encounter doing so, even if they're women, or straight, or elderly, or of a different racial/ethnic background than I am, etc. It is the action I find objectionable, and the other characteristics of the person are immaterial to the fact that they are performing that action.

theatrengym said

MSUBioNerd said

It is fair game to criticize actions of other people, even when they are part of a group that is different than you. For example, I find it quite rude when people don't clean up after their dog's waste when they take it for a walk. As such, I will criticize people I encounter doing so, even if they're women, or straight, or elderly, or of a different racial/ethnic background than I am, etc. It is the action I find objectionable, and the other characteristics of the person are immaterial to the fact that they are performing that action.

But do you have a dog of your own? That's what counts. If you don't have a dog after which you have to clean up, you don't know how difficult and annoying it is to have do that all the time! You have no right to judge us! Get a dog and see what it's like! Stop being so goddamned judgmental!

phemt saidI wonder how a Christain would respond/feel about being pressured to engage in another religion's prayers?
http://www.au.org/media/church-and-state/archives/2006/10/why-irsquom-ag.html


A sporting event should be just that: a sport event.
It should not be a religious event - if you want that go to your church or temple.
Private events have the "legal right" to do it, but that still dosn't mean making others feel pressured to do what you want is the right thing to do.

phemt said

theatrengym said

MSUBioNerd said

It is fair game to criticize actions of other people, even when they are part of a group that is different than you. For example, I find it quite rude when people don't clean up after their dog's waste when they take it for a walk. As such, I will criticize people I encounter doing so, even if they're women, or straight, or elderly, or of a different racial/ethnic background than I am, etc. It is the action I find objectionable, and the other characteristics of the person are immaterial to the fact that they are performing that action.

But do you have a dog of your own? That's what counts. If you don't have a dog after which you have to clean up, you don't know how difficult and annoying it is to have do that all the time! You have no right to judge us! Get a dog and see what it's like! Stop being so goddamned judgmental!

If you are unable to take care and clean up your dog's shit on the sidewalk - don't get a dog. I love having dogs but living in an apartment (with no private yard) in the city requires extra work. I choose not to have a dog for such reasons. Try stepping in dog shit on your way to work because a lazy ass didn't clean up after his dog!

theatrengym said

phemt said

theatrengym said

MSUBioNerd said

It is fair game to criticize actions of other people, even when they are part of a group that is different than you. For example, I find it quite rude when people don't clean up after their dog's waste when they take it for a walk. As such, I will criticize people I encounter doing so, even if they're women, or straight, or elderly, or of a different racial/ethnic background than I am, etc. It is the action I find objectionable, and the other characteristics of the person are immaterial to the fact that they are performing that action.

But do you have a dog of your own? That's what counts. If you don't have a dog after which you have to clean up, you don't know how difficult and annoying it is to have do that all the time! You have no right to judge us! Get a dog and see what it's like! Stop being so goddamned judgmental!

If you are unable to take care and clean up your dog's shit on the sidewalk - don't get a dog. I love having dogs but living in an apartment (with no private yard) in the city requires extra work. I choose not to have a dog for such reasons. Try stepping in dog shit on your way to work because a lazy ass didn't clean up after his dog!

Wait a minute! Are you calling me a lazy ass?

Hey, I don't even have a dog!

(Someone predicted this would happen, but I didn't think it really would. But maybe your post, which actually sounds serious to me, was intended to be as tongue-in-cheek as my response to our BioNerd.)

phemt said
When you eventully get a dog - you better clean up after it! If you don't I will track you down and wipe the dog shit off my shoe on your ass

G_Force said

phemt saidI wonder how a Christain would respond/feel about being pressured to engage in another religion's prayers?
http://www.au.org/media/church-and-state/archives/2006/10/why-irsquom-ag.html


A sporting event should be just that: a sport event.
It should not be a religious event - if you want that go to your church or temple.
Private events have the "legal right" to do it, but that still dosn't mean making others feel pressured to do what you want is the right thing to do.

I don't know of any sporting event where anyone was forced to pray. If a group offered a prayer there, let them. You do not have to pray with them. But don't forbid any group or team that wants to have a prayer to publicly pray together. Just leave them alone. That is their right to do so. Nobody says you have to pray with them there.

In our public high schools here, it is common for a group of students to have a bible study and prayer before school. Nobody is required to attend. Attendance is totally voluntary. But for those who do attend, it is their right to do so and nobody should forbid them to do so, if they want to.attend.

Caesarea4 saidG_Force> a sports team prayed before the game remembering the 1 year anniversary death of one of their former teammates.

As we approach the Gay Superbowl, I was thinking about just that. It will be 3 months (and PrideBowl next year will be exactly 1 year) since we lost a teammate. So, yeah, I think I'll be leading the team in prayer. Which just goes to show you that... atheists say the strangest things (but - for me - it's about remembering and honoring our friend, not praying to an alleged deity).

G_Force saidIf a sports team WANTS to pray in the name of Jesus, let them. They are not hurting you with their prayer. If a church wants to broadcast their services on public TV, let them, they are not hurting you. You do not have to turn their broadcast on, but those who do want to hear it, should be allowed to.

theatrengym said

G_Force saidIf a sports team WANTS to pray in the name of Jesus, let them. They are not hurting you with their prayer. If a church wants to broadcast their services on public TV, let them, they are not hurting you. You do not have to turn their broadcast on, but those who do want to hear it, should be allowed to.

I really have to disagree with you about this. Maybe it's fine for a team from a seminary to have a group prayer in Jesus's name, or a team from some other explicitly Christian group, but otherwise, it's tyrannical, oppressive and presumptuous to make the assumption that everyone in the group believes in Jesus and has no problem with it.

In such situations, there's a great deal of group pressure. I'm guessing you wouldn't want to be on a team where you were expected to participate in group prayers to Mohammed or Buddha or the Great Pumpkin.

You seem like a thoughtful guy and I'd hope you would realize this.

As for public TV, if you mean PBS, no, a church shouldn't be given the opportunity to broadcast its services unless you want to make sure that PBS then gives equal time to other churches and reilgions. Soon PBS would be full of nothing but churches. It's a government-run station, and despite what some would like to believe, it's clear that this is exactly the sort of thing that the founding fathers would have wanted to prevent if they could see into the future.

G_Force said

theatrengym said

G_Force saidIf a sports team WANTS to pray in the name of Jesus, let them. They are not hurting you with their prayer. If a church wants to broadcast their services on public TV, let them, they are not hurting you. You do not have to turn their broadcast on, but those who do want to hear it, should be allowed to.

I really have to disagree with you about this. Maybe it's fine for a team from a seminary to have a group prayer in Jesus's name, or a team from some other explicitly Christian group, but otherwise, it's tyrannical, oppressive and presumptuous to make the assumption that everyone in the group believes in Jesus and has no problem with it.

In such situations, there's a great deal of group pressure. I'm guessing you wouldn't want to be on a team where you were expected to participate in group prayers to Mohammed or Buddha or the Great Pumpkin.

You seem like a thoughtful guy and I'd hope you would realize this.

As for public TV, if you mean PBS, no, a church shouldn't be given the opportunity to broadcast its services unless you want to make sure that PBS then gives equal time to other churches and reilgions. Soon PBS would be full of nothing but churches. It's a government-run station, and despite what some would like to believe, it's clear that this is exactly the sort of thing that the founding fathers would have wanted to prevent if they could see into the future.

In the situation I was referring to, the team was from a public school, but everyone on the team was ok with the prayer. But even if EVERYONE was not in agreement with the prayer, they can simply stand there in silence and respect. I'm not Catholic and I don't beleive in many Catholic church teachings, but this did not keep me away from attending the Catholic funeral and mass. I was there for my relatives not for worship. During the prayers, I didn't join my heart with them in the prayers, but simply stood and remained silent and respectful. When in social settings and Christian prayers are being said, just be silent and respectful. You DON'T HAVE to join your heart in the prayer. If I was on a sports team and the majority of the team wanted to say a prayer to Budda, it wouldn't bother me in the least, if they did. So I'm not sure why it bothers you when Christians pray in social settings.. I would just be respectful during the prayer and not pray with them, but rather pray silently my own prayer. I WOULD NOT MAKE A BIG FUSS TO THE COACH ABOUT YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE PRAYERS TO BUDDHA. If the majority of the team wanted to pray a prayer to Buddha,let them. I can pray my own prayer , but I'm certainly not going to say they can not pray their prayer to Buddha. You see what I am saying? There's ways of handling situations like this, keeping the peace without ARGUING WHETHER THEY SHOUD PRAY. Let them pray what they want. I''ll just be resspectful duing the prayer and nobody is going to know whether you pray with them or not, so there is NO PRESSURE TO CONFORM.

I would have no problem singing a Hannuka song, even though I am not a Jew, and may not even beleive in the words, but I'm singing for a performance of a Jewish song and not worshipping or praying in the performance of the song.

This is HOW YOU KEEP THE PEACE without being confrontational. It is not necessary to be confrontational but agree to disagree.

scguy157 said Wow!!!! all this talk is so empty. I am an ordained minister from the "fundamentalist camp." I know first hand what it is like to experience church discipline for being gay. My whole world crumbled around me when I told my wife I was gay. I left that world behind, not my faith, to link arms with a group that hates me too!!! That is what is so disappointing to me. And therefore I am judged by both sides. I would only wish that we, who are gay, would not be guilty of the same practices that the Christian world is guilty. I probably will be blasted from both sides for posting this... but I had to say something.

jprichva said

scguy157 said Wow!!!! all this talk is so empty. I am an ordained minister from the "fundamentalist camp." I know first hand what it is like to experience church discipline for being gay. My whole world crumbled around me when I told my wife I was gay. I left that world behind, not my faith, to link arms with a group that hates me too!!! That is what is so disappointing to me. And therefore I am judged by both sides. I would only wish that we, who are gay, would not be guilty of the same practices that the Christian world is guilty. I probably will be blasted from both sides for posting this... but I had to say something.

I don't remotely hate you. I feel great empathy for the struggles you must have had with your religion, and coming out so late.

If you want to talk about anything, feel free to send me an email.

G_Force said

In the situation I was referring to, the team was from a public school, but everyone on the team was ok with the prayer. But even if EVERYONE was not in agreement with the prayer, they can simply stand there in silence and respect. I'm not Catholic and I don't beleive in many Catholic church teachings, but this did not keep me away from attending the Catholic funeral and mass. I was there for my relatives not for worship. During the prayers, I didn't join my heart with them in the prayers, but simply stood and remained silent and respectful. When in social settings and Christian prayers are being said, just be silent and respectful. You DON'T HAVE to join your heart in the prayer. If I was on a sports team and the majority of the team wanted to say a prayer to Budda, it wouldn't bother me in the least, if they did. So I'm not sure why it bothers you when Christians pray in social settings.. I would just be respectful during the prayer and not pray with them, but rather pray silently my own prayer. I WOULD NOT MAKE A BIG FUSS TO THE COACH ABOUT YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE PRAYERS TO BUDDHA. If the majority of the team wanted to pray a prayer to Buddha,let them. I can pray my own prayer , but I'm certainly not going to say they can not pray their prayer to Buddha. You see what I am saying? There's ways of handling situations like this, keeping the peace without ARGUING WHETHER THEY SHOUD PRAY. Let them pray what they want. I''ll just be resspectful duing the prayer and nobody is going to know whether you pray with them or not, so there is NO PRESSURE TO CONFORM.

I would have no problem singing a Hannuka song, even though I am not a Jew, and may not even beleive in the words, but I'm singing for a performance of a Jewish song and not worshipping or praying in the performance of the song.

This is HOW YOU KEEP THE PEACE without being confrontational. It is not necessary to be confrontational but agree to disagree.

I've also been to Catholic churches for family funerals. In both cases I was respectful. I knew I was entering a church reflective of their beliefs. I can even understand the wanting to pray for the death of a sick or deceased teammate. What I don't get is the need to pray before a sporting event. It is sporting event - not a church. To me it would be like going to a store to purchase something and the cashier starts praying. I would be like WTF! I didn't realize I was going to a church - I thought I was just going to a store.
I agree to disagree with people like G_force and would like to apologize for some of my confrontational posts. For now on I intend to engage in only civil debate/discussion (I might sometimes fail even with best intentions - forgive me). I might even learn a thing or two from you all. We can foucs our attention on fighting the real enemy here: Republicans - just kidding

MSUBioNerd saidIt would be nice if you were right, G_Force, that no one would notice nor care if you didn't participate in a given prayer. But that's obviously not universally the case.

Anecdote time: Back in high school, I was in the choir, which sang each year at graduation. The choir director picked our songs, and at my graduation one of the songs chosen was "The Lord Bless You And Keep You" -- a traditional prayer set to music. I objected to him about this privately; concerts were one thing, as they were all truly optional. Graduation, though technically optional, really wasn't. Even if it was optional, though, our choir director didn't have the right to choose that we were singing a prayer. The controlling court decision (at the time at least -- I don't know if a new precedent has been set) was that prayer was only allowed at a school function if a) it was an optional function, and b) it was student-lead. As I said to him, I wouldn't have objected if he had offered the students a choice in what we were singing and we had voted for that one, but his dictating it wasn't legally allowed. I was told to stop making waves, and that I was sticking my nose in things that were none of my business. When I stood there silently during that song during graduation, having never expressed my objections in front of the other members of the choir, it led to a lot of discussion among the other students and me having to field questions about it from essentially everyone I knew in my graduating class when I next saw them -- to the point of being told it was rude and disrespectful and arrogant and immoral of me to not participate because how could I object to such a generic and peaceful prayer? And I was at a large public suburban school in the northeast, where religion was much less a daily part of people's lives than it is in many settings in this country.

In general, my experience has been that most people in the majority when it comes to something like religion have very little understanding of the social pressures placed on the minority in such subjects to conform.

scguy157 saidWow!!!! all this talk is so empty. I am an ordained minister from the "fundamentalist camp." I know first hand what it is like to experience church discipline for being gay. My whole world crumbled around me when I told my wife I was gay. I left that world behind, not my faith, to link arms with a group that hates me too!!! That is what is so disappointing to me. And therefore I am judged by both sides. I would only wish that we, who are gay, would not be guilty of the same practices that the Christian world is guilty. I probably will be blasted from both sides for posting this... but I had to say something.

MSUBioNerd saidWhy would you say that Jewish students would have objected, G_Force? The prayer comes from the book of Numbers (6:22-27).

And while I sand other religious pieces during various concerts without objection -- high school choir pretty much means a mix of religious music and showtunes -- actual prayers are taking it too far.

You seem very set in your view that there isn't a pressure to conform to the prayer of the majority. I disagree. Religion pervades huge amounts of life, right down to some people getting offended if not told "Bless you" when they sneeze. As much as many preachers and politicians bemoan the state of religion in America, we're one of -- and arguably the most -- religious 1st world nation.

Words do matter. When someone asks for a moment of silence out of respect for the dead, or to take a moment to be thankful for our blessings, yes, it's obvious that that's code for prayer, but it's still much more respectful to those of differing views than saying either "Let us pray" or "Let's take a moment to reflect on the complexity of the purely natural forces which shaped our universe and brought about our existence with no need for divine planning or intervention". The repetition of one's belief on a captive audience is a constant reminder of out-group status to anyone who doesn't share that belief.

While from your postings here you seem very level-headed and accepting of different viewpoints, I'm sure you'll agree that there are others who profess your faith and don't share these qualities. (To be fair, there are also atheists and agnostics who don't share these qualities, but with Christians such an overwhelming majority of the country, there are many more close minded Christians than close minded atheists around). As such, just because no one said that they objected doesn't mean that no one has a problem with the prayer. As the saying goes, do not confuse silence with consent.

phemt saidI wasn't really raised in any religious tradition and I resent the hate from certian religous groups towards gays. At times I have been one of those haters from the other side towards gay christians. I don't completely understand the Gay Christian mind set, but I would like to say sorry that you have caught it from both sides. Sometimes we on the secular left can forget that it is not just religious views/agandas we are attacking, but an actual person who is struggling to understand himself and his place in the world.

scguy157 saidWow!!!! all this talk is so empty. I am an ordained minister from the "fundamentalist camp." I know first hand what it is like to experience church discipline for being gay. My whole world crumbled around me when I told my wife I was gay. I left that world behind, not my faith, to link arms with a group that hates me too!!! That is what is so disappointing to me. And therefore I am judged by both sides. I would only wish that we, who are gay, would not be guilty of the same practices that the Christian world is guilty. I probably will be blasted from both sides for posting this... but I had to say something.

G_Force said But I will enjoy a perfect world in time with my God when he will raise me from the dead. I have absolutely no doubt about this.

MSUBioNerd saidHow is it representative of the Trinity? The lyrics of the song (which I recall because of a freakish memory)

"The Lord bless you and keep you.
The Lord make His face to shine upon you
to shine upon you and be gracious
and be gracious unto you.

The Lord lift up the light
of His countenance upon you
and give you peace
and give you peace
and give you peace
and give you peace"

followed by the word "Amen" many, many times (and in different numbers for each of the vocal parts).

phemt saidTeaching religion in school is fine as long as it dosn't involve indoctrination in sectarian beliefs. I took a world religion class in college and enjoyed the class. I am not at all against learning about religon. I just don't approve of being pressued to take part in religious rituals or having the gov't offically supporting religion. Atheists shouldn't feel pressured to part take in Theist traditions; Catholics shouldn't feel pressured to take part in Protestant traditions; Protestant shouldn't feel pressued to take part in Buddhist traditions; etc.
The debate is where/how should the wall of Separation between church and State be placed. I am deeply in favor of having a strong separation, but even I wouldn't want to go as far as France does in enforcing a secular society. I personally know a conservative Baptist Pastor who favors the separation of church and State. In his words "It turns my stomach when people use religion for poltical purposes".
I am proud of the fact that the US has never had an established church (eventhough some of the orginal colonies did). I am also proud that we have Freedom of Religious belief. Sometimes these two principles come into conflict. Examples include: school vouchers for religous schools, school sponsered prayers, "In God We Trust on Currency" etc. We are all Americans and have the right to our opinion and to even disagree and debate. What is unacceptable though is to tell someone to "go to another country" because one has a minority view.

MSUBioNerd saidHonestly? I find that reasoning to be about as compelling as my Sophomore English teacher claiming that there is Christ imagery in the title of The Old Man and the Sea because each word contains three letters and that's representative of the Trinity. I highly doubt that the majority of Jewish people would see anything objectionable in the prayer.

G_Force said

I don;t think most Jews will sing it though, because it is written from a Christain and has Christian connotations.

G_Force said Do you think it is mere coincidence that we are blessed 3 TIMES by the name of the Lord? Don't you think it just might explain why in Genesis God uses the PLURAL PRONOUN to describe himself when he say, "Let US make man." And Jesus repeatedly described the Godhead as bring trinitarian by calling himself God as the Son of God along with his Father and his promise to send the Holy Spirit of God? This is the same God I worship.

G_Force said

theatrengym said

I really have to disagree with you about this. Maybe it's fine for a team from a seminary to have a group prayer in Jesus's name, or a team from some other explicitly Christian group, but otherwise, it's tyrannical, oppressive and presumptuous to make the assumption that everyone in the group believes in Jesus and has no problem with it.

In such situations, there's a great deal of group pressure. I'm guessing you wouldn't want to be on a team where you were expected to participate in group prayers to Mohammed or Buddha or the Great Pumpkin.

You seem like a thoughtful guy and I'd hope you would realize this.

As for public TV, if you mean PBS, no, a church shouldn't be given the opportunity to broadcast its services unless you want to make sure that PBS then gives equal time to other churches and reilgions. Soon PBS would be full of nothing but churches. It's a government-run station, and despite what some would like to believe, it's clear that this is exactly the sort of thing that the founding fathers would have wanted to prevent if they could see into the future.

In the situation I was referring to, the team was from a public school, but everyone on the team was ok with the prayer. But even if EVERYONE was not in agreement with the prayer, they can simply stand there in silence and respect. I'm not Catholic and I don't beleive in many Catholic church teachings, but this did not keep me away from attending the Catholic funeral and mass. I was there for my relatives not for worship. During the prayers, I didn't join my heart with them in the prayers, but simply stood and remained silent and respectful. When in social settings and Christian prayers are being said, just be silent and respectful. You DON'T HAVE to join your heart in the prayer. If I was on a sports team and the majority of the team wanted to say a prayer to Budda, it wouldn't bother me in the least, if they did. So I'm not sure why it bothers you when Christians pray in social settings.. I would just be respectful during the prayer and not pray with them, but rather pray silently my own prayer. I WOULD NOT MAKE A BIG FUSS TO THE COACH ABOUT YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE PRAYERS TO BUDDHA. If the majority of the team wanted to pray a prayer to Buddha,let them. I can pray my own prayer , but I'm certainly not going to say they can not pray their prayer to Buddha. You see what I am saying? There's ways of handling situations like this, keeping the peace without ARGUING WHETHER THEY SHOUD PRAY. Let them pray what they want. I''ll just be resspectful duing the prayer and nobody is going to know whether you pray with them or not, so there is NO PRESSURE TO CONFORM.

I would have no problem singing a Hannuka song, even though I am not a Jew, and may not even beleive in the words, but I'm singing for a performance of a Jewish song and not worshipping or praying in the performance of the song.

This is HOW YOU KEEP THE PEACE without being confrontational. It is not necessary to be confrontational but agree to disagree.

G_Force said
I know of no public school or governmental agency that forces anyone to take part in any religious rituals. Singing a Christmas song or a Hanakah song does NOT mean it is automatically a religious ritual in the context. It may be simply a PERFORMANCE of a musical work of art and IS NOT a form or worship---absolutely nothing wrong with this Since it is a fact that the majority of this nation has some kind of belief and trust in God , there is nothing wrong with having as our motto, "In God We Trust" on our money. That doesn;t mean YOU HAVE to trust in him and nobody is threatening you to do so.
Christians may wish you did. Why? Because if you take time to understand true Christians, they simply want you to expereince the same joy in the life to come. Is that so evil to want you to have perfect happiness with them? That don't sound so evil to me, but sounds like someone who cares about you. Those who delight in someone's unhappiness are NOT true Christians.

Caesarea4 saidVat? No buy 1 get 2 free?

Hey, maybe the fact that the word Jew has 3 letters in it, like God, is further proof of the existence of the Trinity? (Never mind that in Hebrew, neither is the case?)

Hey, I'm pretty good with numbers and maths so let's see what else we can contrive today: The Torah has 5 books, and there are 5 pillars of Islam. Therefore the Torah proves that Islam is correct, right?

That Jesus had 12 disciples proves that the Zodiak/Astrology is all that, right?

MSUBioNerd saidWell, again, it is literally an Old Testament prayer (recounted as being from the life of Moses), so in many senses it must obviously have been written by a Jew, not a Christian, as there were no Christians at all at the time it was written. And a quick unscientific poll of my Jewish friends who happen to be online find none who see Trinity symbolism in that prayer. The number 3 doesn't mean the same thing to everyone.

G_Force said The New Testament is the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy.

G_Force saidRead Isaiah 53. It is a prophecy of the crucifixion of Christ. Isaiah is 700 years before Christ. Isaiah 53 describes very specfic details about the crucifixion of Christ.

MSUBioNerd saidWell, again, it is literally an Old Testament prayer (recounted as being from the life of Moses), so in many senses it must obviously have been written by a Jew, not a Christian, as there were no Christians at all at the time it was written. And a quick unscientific poll of my Jewish friends who happen to be online find none who see Trinity symbolism in that prayer. The number 3 doesn't mean the same thing to everyone.

jprichva said

G_Force said The New Testament is the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy.

The so-called New Testament is just a sequel. And like most sequels, it is shorter, not as well-written, the characters make no sense and the plot is ridiculous.

Caesarea4 saidVat? No buy 1 get 2 free?

Hey, maybe the fact that the word Jew has 3 letters in it, like God, is further proof of the existence of the Trinity? (Never mind that in Hebrew, neither is the case?)

Hey, I'm pretty good with numbers and maths so let's see what else we can contrive today: The Torah has 5 books, and there are 5 pillars of Islam. Therefore the Torah proves that Islam is correct, right?

That Jesus had 12 disciples proves that the Zodiak/Astrology is all that, right?

chuckystud saidBottom line is that I wouldn't have the nut cases work for me, in the first place, any more than I'd hire smokers.

Employers have every right to make a culture that THEY want. That's what FREE enterprise is all about. Freedom of choice: it cuts both ways.