Lilith!

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    Aug 28, 2009 10:26 PM GMT
    Maybe we (gays) are the children of Lilith not Eve! What do you think?
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    Aug 28, 2009 11:49 PM GMT

    You are inquisitive and also deep, but why always ponder the negative aspects of what you are? No we are not children of Lilith. You imply that your being gay is evil by saying that. Knock it off.

    ..............................................
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    Aug 29, 2009 12:04 AM GMT
    In fact I have no problem with being a gay! I just think that I am stronger than straight men like Lilith thought she wasn't weaker than Adam!
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    Aug 29, 2009 12:17 AM GMT
    what makes you stronger then a straight man?
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    Aug 29, 2009 12:21 AM GMT
    ...........................................................................Ooops, I guess I watch too much Supernatural.
    katherine-boecher-as-lilith.jpg

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    Aug 29, 2009 12:26 AM GMT
    I mean gay men are stronger...
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    Aug 29, 2009 1:00 AM GMT
    how so?
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    Aug 29, 2009 2:25 AM GMT

    If anything, a straight man is stronger than you. At the age you are, he usually has a family, one he is charged to provide for and to raise children that are happy, educated additions to society. He has that in addition to your role in society to be a productive and law abiding citizen. On a larger scale, he and a woman literally have the weight of the world on their shoulders, everything depends on them.

    You are stereotyped as a contradiction in society, which is almost a a reprieve. A straight man has to up hold and adapt the standard. All of the straight society's, values, customs, and culture are handed down by him. Your gay dilemma (you can't bypass the standard) is testimony to how well he's worked.

    Today, the overall current in the gay community is that the gay community's standards: culture, values, and customs are inferior or obsolete. How fickle, disloyal, and weak. More important that behavior is contrary to the dedication to their "standards" that has made the straight communities standards are so iron clad.

    In particular in relation to you, straight people know to identify with a god, a something positive that even the naysayers, if they can't get behind the god, can understand it's a symbol of startling good. But you identify here with a contradiction.

    You are good too, you are not a rebel or second rate. So why embrace that belief and then try to dress it up as a strength? I'm not saying conform, simply embrace and project who you are, the way straight people have done. Simply choosing to be the opposite of what you perceive straight people to be is a pitiful attempt at being strong. How affected, you are different because you are different, nothing to do with you puffing out your chest sometimes.

    (NOTICE) I am not trying to say gay people are weak. We are not because of the calloused skin our plight has wrought. However, in the context of a society, we are not so strong. We can't even bring our community together. Straight people hold together a society. They do it by successfully circulating a "standard," that includes values, customs, and culture. Its a fact not a slam.

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    Aug 29, 2009 9:28 AM GMT
    GuiltyGearOn a larger scale, he and a woman literally have the weight of the world on their shoulders, everything depends on them.


    No offence guiltygear, I get where your coming from, but I say that is a load of bollocks.

    One should always be cautious of anyone who thinks that survival is the most important goal of humanity. To quote Battlestar Galactica, "It's not enough to survive. One has to be worthy of surviving."

    GuiltyGearAt the age you are, he usually has a family, one he is charged to provide for and to raise children that are happy, educated additions to society.


    One should be very aware of the role the straight community has had on this aspect. I would point out that through adoption laws in most states in my country, and marriage laws in all of them, straight society has legally impeded us from forming anything which may resemble a socially acknowledged family.

    That said I would point out that the fact people are fighting for such rights would indicate that many gay people have the exact same desires in this regard as straight people.


    ALL THAT said, the entire thread is bollocks anyway, we are all the same, some of us just happen to like people of the same sex.
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Aug 29, 2009 9:57 AM GMT
    At the age you are, he usually has a family, one he is charged to provide for and to raise children that are happy, educated additions to society. He has that in addition to your role in society to be a productive and law abiding citizen. On a larger scale, he and a woman literally have the weight of the world on their shoulders, everything depends on them.

    I couldn't disagree more
    The str8 man has all the advantages that society can provide
    economic and cultural
    They are given all kinds of positive feedback their entire lives for doing what they do
    even a wink for when they sometimes fool around on the side
    On the other hand we as gay men have to fight and scratch for everything just to exist in this world
    We have to battle stereotypes and hostility at every turn
    I think to be a gay man today requires you to be strong
  • DCEric

    Posts: 3713

    Aug 29, 2009 11:31 AM GMT
    200px-Cheers_lilith.jpg
    I hope not.
  • kew1

    Posts: 1595

    Aug 29, 2009 12:19 PM GMT
    DcEric, I thought the thread was going to be about her as wellicon_biggrin.gif
    She had a certain cold charm, good dancer as well.
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    Aug 29, 2009 2:43 PM GMT
    Fact!

    Lilith is pure folklore and had never been part of the Biblical creation myth (itself also pure folklore from the same sources). She was borrowed from Sumerian mythology. An example of religious demonization of older religions and portraying former gods and goddesses as evil (something which has also happened in other religions, like the satyrs becoming the modern concept of biblical demons, the sidhe, wicca, druids, etc. all of at one time or the other legitimate gods in their own rights but have since become synonymous with Satan when Christianity conquered them).

    Fact!

    Just because we are demonized by religion does not mean we are demons.

    Fact!

    We evolved. icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Aug 29, 2009 4:14 PM GMT
    Magnus08 saidMaybe we (gays) are the children of Lilith not Eve! What do you think?



    lilith's curse for thinking herself Adam's equal, in the story, was not only expulsion from the garden before eve was created to replace her, but specifically that she would have 100 babies every day, and all of them would die. which is why she's cited as one of the early vampire myth origins, since she was a hebrew demoness said to creep into the homes of adam's decedents to exact revenge by killing the human babies she found- she was held responsible for infant fatalities and childhood wasting illnesses.

    interesting side note (connected to whats said just above me)- her character was a symbol of female empowerment and attempted equality with men, which was bastardized and demonized from the Babylonian goddess Lamastu, who while also accredited for childhood and infant deaths, was seen as a sort of female force of nature, neither 'good' or 'bad' but merely powerful and hard to bargain with. the hebrews were chauvinists, so they slandered her in lilith.

    so we can't be her children, because all of hers die.
  • Timbales

    Posts: 13993

    Aug 29, 2009 4:19 PM GMT
    DCEric said200px-Cheers_lilith.jpg
    I hope not.


    I love Lilith. icon_redface.gif
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    Aug 29, 2009 4:21 PM GMT
    that's the lilith of hebrew mythology, though, czar... the lilith figure as she exists in other mythologies of the levant isn't necessarily a demoness. in fact, if you consider the source of what you described (hebrew writers who hated women), it should become clear very quickly that they HAD to demonize lilith in order to maintain the hegemony of a patriarchal belief system. if yahweh is male and doing a solo gig, then the Mother has to be subverted in order to disempower the belief systems of the peoples conquered and enslaved by the hebrews.

    thus...

    i agree with the o.p.: i am a child of lilith through and through, and it stands true on many levels for many reasons.
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    Aug 29, 2009 4:32 PM GMT
    dancerjack saidthat's the lilith of hebrew mythology, though, czar... the lilith figure as she exists in other mythologies of the levant isn't necessarily a demoness. in fact, if you consider the source of what you described (hebrew writers who hated women), it should become clear very quickly that they HAD to demonize lilith in order to maintain the hegemony of a patriarchal belief system. if yahweh is male and doing a solo gig, then the Mother has to be subverted in order to disempower the belief systems of the peoples conquered and enslaved by the hebrews.


    The great monotheisms (Judaism/Christianity/Islam) basically blames everything on women anyway. And by extension, on gay men for filling in a role that should've been for the original sinner.
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    Aug 30, 2009 2:16 AM GMT
    gay men are even worse BECAUSE THEY CHOOSE TO THROW AWAY THEIR MASCULINITY.