ARE OUR FREEDOMS BEING TAKEN AWAY?

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    Dec 07, 2007 5:39 PM GMT
    Honestly, I'm getting sick and tired of well known freedoms that shouldn't be under attack to stay put, and for the government to shove all the things they do for themselves and not for the people, up their asses.

    This is getting ridiculous when about all we can do is breath (but not to much) in accordance with soon to be breathing regulations (watch out, next you'll be fined for taking in to much air) Where does this stop and when do people start getting angry about what we are not going to have in the future? I know, I know...I bitch while we could be worse off like a third world country. But according to the first amendment and the rest of the constitution "we the people" are to run America and not these erroneous neocons that are RUINING this country.

    Are we just happy with the way things are an we're too busy to realize the things that are being taken away slowly but surely. I bitch now about the little things that may not mean much as to have the right to bitch about it at all...especially before this does become a society in which and I have no right at all.


    As Benjamin Franklin is qoated as saying "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both"

    I do belong to a group and do what I can to make sure you sleep soundly in your bed at night. Therefore, I know plenty about what freedoms are slowly slipping away.

    1. Internet freedom is under attack as Congress pushes a law that would give companies like AT&T the power to control what you do online. (no porn for you)

    2. Just 45 days after the September 11 attacks, with virtually no debate, Congress passed the USA PATRIOT Act. There are significant flaws in the Patriot Act, flaws that threaten your fundamental freedoms by giving the government the power to access to your medical records, tax records, information about the books you buy or borrow without probable cause, and the power to break into your home and conduct secret searches without telling you for weeks, months, or indefinitely. Thus they can hold you, without cause, in jail for an unspecified time.

    3. There has never been a more urgent need to preserve fundamental privacy protections and our system of checks and balances than the need we face today, as illegal government spying, provisions of the Patriot Act and government-sponsored torture programs transcend the bounds of law and our most treasured values in the name of national security.


    I'm sure you'll say something witty like "well, if I'm not doing anything wrong, they can go ahead and watch me". Sure, but would you like it if your parents set up a camera in your room while you were growing up...you know, to make sure you weren't jerking off or smoking a cigerette out the window?

    Smoking bans, trans fat bans, helmet laws, are these to ensure our safety because the government doesn't wanting us thinking for ourselves? What's next? You might be fined for wearing your hair too long, or maybe because your I.Q. is too low.

    Think for yourself, question authority.
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    Dec 08, 2007 1:20 AM GMT
    With the decline of the dollar, we are already a third-world country. My friends in New York tell me that the city is awash in foreign tourists, who have come here to buy things since their money now goes so far.

    "Look, darling, native handicrafts!" one of them squeals, then turns to my friend and says "We just ADORE your little country."

    Shoot me now.
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    Dec 08, 2007 9:50 AM GMT
    You people are crazy...stop your whining and do something more productive with your precious, free time.
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    Dec 08, 2007 1:46 PM GMT
    Just get hillary elected and it will be all over.icon_wink.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 08, 2007 2:51 PM GMT
    lateralus wrote: "ARE OUR FREEDOMS BEING TAKEN AWAY?"

    So what are you doing about it?

    Do you belong to the ACLU?

    The ACLU is an organization who's sole purpose is to defend the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

    So why don't you belong?

    ---------------------------------------------------

    I hear people bitching about their 'rights' being taken away all the time, when they don't have a clue as to what those 'rights' actually are.

    As for "...these erroneous neocons that are RUINING this country."; who the hell do you think elected them?

    I love it when - especially conservative republicans - bitch about the corruption and waste in State and National Govt, but then turn around and think that THEIR elected officials are just fine and not part of the problem. As if it was just everyone else in the Republic who was electing blockheads.

    To quote Aaron Sorkin "Decisions are made by those who show up." (I think that will probably go down as one of histories great quotations - probably the thing for which Sorkin - maybe this generation - will be remembered in fifty or a hundred years - and it was made by a hollywood screenwriter; I think that is just hilarious! icon_lol.gificon_lol.gif Every politician for the last decade is kicking themself [and their campaign staffs] that they didn't think of that line first. icon_lol.gif )






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    Dec 08, 2007 3:17 PM GMT
    << is a cardmember of the ACLU. icon_wink.gif
  • HndsmKansan

    Posts: 16305

    Dec 08, 2007 3:17 PM GMT
    Well I agree with ITJock to a point. I would just ask
    Lateralus to specify which freedoms he believes are in jeopardy and how and then we can comment about those.
    The original post was a little vague and smacked of
    "complaining" without specificity.

    Please go into some detail here.....
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 08, 2007 4:23 PM GMT
    I'm with you ITJock. One of my favorite quotes, attributed to Franklin after the Constitutional Convention and being asked what kind of government had been created, he said, "A republic, if you can keep it."

    And that is why I write letters, show up at protests, and belong to organizations trying to keep it. I'm just one person but I want to have an answer other than "I watched reality TV" when I'm asked what I did during this time in our nation's history.
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    Dec 08, 2007 6:58 PM GMT
    Well, for one ITcock, don't go making accusations while being a coward and not even posting a picture.

    Second, I do belong to a group and do what I can to make sure you sleep soundly in your bed at night. Therefore, I know plenty about what freedoms are slowly slipping away.

    1. Internet freedom is under attack as Congress pushes a law that would give companies like AT&T the power to control what you do online. (no porn for you)

    2. Just 45 days after the September 11 attacks, with virtually no debate, Congress passed the USA PATRIOT Act. There are significant flaws in the Patriot Act, flaws that threaten your fundamental freedoms by giving the government the power to access to your medical records, tax records, information about the books you buy or borrow without probable cause, and the power to break into your home and conduct secret searches without telling you for weeks, months, or indefinitely. Thus they can hold you, without cause, in jail for an unspecified time.

    3. There has never been a more urgent need to preserve fundamental privacy protections and our system of checks and balances than the need we face today, as illegal government spying, provisions of the Patriot Act and government-sponsored torture programs transcend the bounds of law and our most treasured values in the name of national security.


    I'm sure you'll say something witty like "well, if I'm not doing anything wrong, they can go ahead and watch me". Sure, but would you like it if your parents set up a camera in your room while you were growing up...you know, to make sure you weren't jerking off or smoking a cigerette out the window?

    Smoking bans, trans fat bans, helmet laws, are these to ensure our safety because the government doesn't wanting us thinking for ourselves? What's next? You might be fined for wearing your hair too long, or maybe because your I.Q. is too low.

    Think for yourself, question authority.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 08, 2007 7:10 PM GMT
    <--------- Support of ACLU http://www.aclu.org
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    Dec 08, 2007 8:47 PM GMT
    HAHA...a smoking ban=an attack on the constitution.
    Well then I shouldn't have to pay taxes for pay for welfare. Why should the government have the right to take my money to give it to someone else?

    There is so much misinformation and propaganda on BOTH sides. I don't trust what any talking head on TV or the news tells me. We continue to have the greatest rights in the world. Think you have it bad here? Try living in North Korea, any Islamic state like Saudia Arabia, or Russia these days. There, they will actually put you to death just for being gay!!!

    To say that the US is now a Third World country because of the decline of the dollar is also somewhat ignorant. Have you ever been to a Third World Country? I have. I bitch when my cable goes out, I whine when Netflix takes an extra day to get my movie here, but I don't have to worry about where my next meal is coming from? Do I have to worry about not having vaccinations and access to BASIC healthcare? I have access to reliable, clean, and cheap water. I have an education. I have the right (and obligation) to vote. I am one of the lucky ones in the world.

    Do you have the right to bitch and complain? Absolutely!!!! Do you have the right (and duty) to question and challenge your elected officials? HELL YEAH!!! Do you have the right to be ignorant and misinformed? Absolutely!!!

    As a member of the armed forces, I may not agree with your point of view, but I am willing to give my life to defend your right to express it.
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    Dec 08, 2007 8:53 PM GMT
    I'm not sure if the original poster was alluding to this type of "freedom", but it strikes me as curious anyway...

    Flying now is in my opinion such an affront to decency and respectibility. First off, it's not cheap. Second, you have to take off coats, belts, and what not because of an "alleged" terrorist plot years ago. Now airlines regulate what liquids you can and can't have, to say nothing of the little handlers at the gate who think they're someone's parent because they have a uniform! I find all of this shit absolutly offensive and am consistenly amazed by the nonchalance people seem to have adopted to what would of seemed 30 years ago as incredulous. Makes me wonder if when people have to strip down to their briefs they'll then start to look around in disgust?
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    Dec 08, 2007 8:59 PM GMT
    Jackal, I couldn't agree more!!! I try everything possible NOT to fly these days. It's such a miserable experience from the word go.

    The thing that p*sses me off the most, though, is being treated like a criminal by these TSA boobs. They're a prime example of what happens when you give a small-minded person some power. Granted, not *all* of them are like this, but 9 times out of 10, especially in major metropolitan areas, they're rude, aggressive, and combative.

    NONE of these people - TSA, the airlines, etc. - would have jobs if *we* didn't buy tickets to fly on their planes. Yet they still treat us like criminals. I used to enjoy traveling a lot more than I do now. Now I prefer road trips that lead me to places far from madding crowd.
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    Dec 08, 2007 9:02 PM GMT
    Navy - I am glad you think that healthcare is so accessible these days. must be nice to not be one of the 43 million uninsured people in this country
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    Dec 08, 2007 9:03 PM GMT
    Yo, navylifter--

    The part about actually being a third world country was a joke.

    However, the structure of our economy is starting to increasingly resemble that of what we used to call banana republics: a small, largely hereditary wealthy class that lives behind gated walls and controls most of the country's resources, and a gigantic class of people barely struggling to get by.
    And don't confuse the issue by talking about North Korea...just because some countries are in dire straits doesn't mean we can't be headed in the same direction.

    "My country right or wrong" isn't patriotism, it's mindless jingoism.
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    Dec 08, 2007 9:12 PM GMT
    I agree flying is a pain now, but I would rather spend the extra 15-30 min in line for security than have someone on my plane try and ignite a bomb in their shoe...oh wait that already happened.

    I busted out my copy of the Bill of Rights and was trying to find the part that says you the right to fly without going through security....hmm...can't seem to find it, maybe the ACLU could argue it falls under the right of assembly? Unreasonable search and seizure?
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    Dec 08, 2007 9:28 PM GMT
    It's not about security, Navy. It's about being a complete power-tripping a-hole while doing your security job...
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    Dec 08, 2007 9:35 PM GMT
    In that respect I totally agree. They are civil servants and should do their job in a professional and respectful way.

    When I talked about healthcare, I mean basic healthcare. Yes, I am very lucky that I don't have to worry about insurance and that kind of stuff, but other countries are still much worse off.
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    Dec 08, 2007 9:38 PM GMT
    To speak to the original question, hell yes our freedoms are being taken away. This country has been in FEAR MODE for so long now that we're willing to give up more and more, or, worse, to trivialize the freedoms we've already sacrificed. Oh, they're not so important, so long as we're "safe." Safe from whom, I ask...

    Emails and phone calls are routinely monitored. Do you really trust Bush, Inc. to only monitor "suspected terrorists"? I don't. This is an administration that is built on deceit, fabrication of "evidence", and a complete and total disregard for the will of the people. And I'm supposed to trust them to not spy on me? Yeah, right.

    The trouble is, once you give up a right or privilege, it becomes nearly impossible to regain. That's why we should all be thinking very long and hard about how far we let all of this terrorist fear mongering go.

    The way I see it, the terrorists are winning in a grand way. Our country is incredibly fearful. We're spending ourselves into oblivion. For every dollar the terrorist spends on a pipe bomb, we spend a million. Yet the war drags on, the deficit grows, the economy is on the brink, the housing market is in turmoil, Americans are carrying more debt than ever, we're passing draconian legislation to "protect" us, and the dollar is in free-fall. The terrorists don't need to attack us to ruin us. We're doing their job for them.
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    Dec 08, 2007 9:43 PM GMT
    i hope everyone realizes that I am not attacking anyone here at all. I totally respect everyone's opinions and am just trying to inject a different point of view and encourage debate. There is nothing more boring than talking to a bunch of people who totally agree with you on everything. icon_smile.gif

    Yes, I am somewhat concerned about they way our democratic republic is headed. If Billary is elected (god help us) it will lead to at least 24 years of a Bush/Clinton dynasty. We need fresh blood in our politics. This goes for Congress as well. I think every single one of them should be voted out and we start fresh. DC was built on a swamp and it still smells like something rotten!! We have term limits for President, why not Congress too??
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    Dec 08, 2007 9:44 PM GMT
    Navy, not sure I agree about healthcare. Costs in this country are ABSURD. I went in the other day to have an abdominal CT scan. I was at the hospital for maybe an hour. I hopped in the machine and they took two scans, each lasting about 30 seconds. What do you think my bill was? Try just under $5000!!!

    I'm lucky that I have health insurance. 40+ million Americans do not. Who pays when they need a CT scan?

    The American healthcare system is the joke of the world. We might be leaders in technology and research, but we're shameful when it comes to implementation.

    Yes, other countries are worse off, but they're all *third* world countries. No first world nation has a healthcare system as screwed up and greed-driven as ours. Healthcare shouldn't just be about profit. It should be about public good.
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    Dec 08, 2007 9:45 PM GMT
    Yeah term limits!!! Of course, those fatcat pigs in Congress can't stand the idea of us - THE PEOPLE - derailing their gravy train...
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    Dec 08, 2007 10:47 PM GMT
    One must understand that this country is not a democracy. If you would like, you can call it a constitutional republic. But in the technical terms of political literature, it is what is called a polyarchy. Fairly modern term introduced by a Yale professor of political science, but the idea itself is old. It stems back to James Madison and the Constitutional Convention of 1787; namely, protecting the opulent minority against the majority. And the constitution was drafted to ensure that protection.

    Yes, the populace has had its victories against it, but it still stands. It is manifest in the use of "fear" and the pretext of "terrorism" to pass "protection against terrorism" legislation, which have almost NOTHING to do with terrorism, but rather, disciplining the population and instituting mechanisms of control over the population - NSA's wiretapping, Patriot Act, seizing and arrest without warrant, the list could go on - some of which has already been mentioned.

    And before you run off jabbering about how this country compares to others and ask people to go live in North Korea or Iran, that's exactly why this discussion starts in the first place. Because were are NOT living in North Korea or Iran and basing an argument on the comparison and disparity between an oppressive state and our purported 'free' one is not a valid argument at all.

    It has been long understood, particularly starting after the first world war, that coercion by physical means or force does not work anymore. How, then, would the masses be controlled? Thought. The very way you think is being molded and shaped through the use of political rhetoric, which makes lies seem truthful and murder respectable, to borrow from Orwell. Do you think the risk of terrorists attacking you here has increased? Not at all. Hopefully the most foolish of fools can realize that there is no need for that. They have what they wanted. We're over there now. That's where their attention and effort will be focused.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 13962

    Dec 09, 2007 12:09 AM GMT
    Despite the serious issues facing our great country today, I still think the United States is the greatest country in the world. It is not perfect but it is still the best country that this world offers. As for losing freedoms, I think the biggest potential threat to our freedoms is the rapid rise of the religious right wing in the GOP. Those narrow-minded religious fanatics want to turn this great country of ours into a biblical dictatorship. That should concern and alarm every single American. I am sick and damned tired of these Christian fundamentalists trying to force their ignorance and their religious beliefs onto everyone else. If they want to live in the dark ages by believing everything in that book of ancient fairy-tales known as the holy bible then that is their choice. But they have no right imposing that choice onto the rest of America and polluting our politics and public policy with all that religion. icon_razz.gif
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    Dec 09, 2007 1:56 AM GMT
    What RoadbikeRob said. Exactly.