capitalisms' replacement?

  • mustangd

    Posts: 434

    Sep 05, 2009 7:45 PM GMT
    when capitalism was born, the planet had a lower population to landmass ratio, technology was in its infancy, resources were abundant, and there was much work that needed doing.

    today, we see a different population to landmass ratio, technology is replacing labor at an ever increasing rate, and resources are not as plentiful.

    while not promoting any economic system in particular, can anyone tell me how the capitalistic economic system is going to survive when increasing numbers of people are looking for decreasing numbers of jobs? how people are supposed to make ends meet when costs of basic elements like food, and energy are going up faster than wages?

    this seems to me, to be the 8 mega ton gorilla in the room, yet all i hear is the same finger pointing jargon.

    realistically, how do we keep food on peoples tables, a roof over their heads, and heat in their furnace's when the job outlook is bleak, and getting bleaker, populations keep growing, and we have what appears to be class warfare going on in this country?

    i talk to people of many walks of life, who are not independently wealthy, i keep hearing the same things, they seem to feel we are heading for some sort of cataclysmic event.

    so, if capitalism fails the masses, and solicialism and communism are not viable economic models, at least from past examples, what are we supposed to live on in the future? soylent green?
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    Sep 05, 2009 8:57 PM GMT
    dont really have to change the economic system... we just need innovation, new ideas, and for people to want to work hard for them selves to get the life style they want... if there are no jobs out there then create your own...find a need and fulfill it
  • jarhead5536

    Posts: 1348

    Sep 05, 2009 9:09 PM GMT
    There is no viable alternative to capitalism, period. Socialism/communism is an utterly failed social systems. Now, capitalism can and will spin quickly out of control without regulation (see America from 1880-1930). Capitalism is based in human selfishness and greed, and without vigorous government regulation, you have the Gilded Age all over again. Without capitalism, there is no incentive for innovation, no worker's rights, and no social mobility...
  • NickoftheNort...

    Posts: 1416

    Sep 05, 2009 9:31 PM GMT
    Capitalism in and of itself ended with the Great Depression. Even the economically liberal US has significant social-oriented economic elements (Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, food stamps).

    In much of Europe capitalism was replaced with some form of socialist economy and remains so today (though one of those replacements, national socialism, is thankfully an undesirable relic these days). The Scandinavian countries in particular have developed what's called social democracy, where the market is used because of its efficiency yet limited because of its unpredictability and its ability to hurt society. In Norway, workers and businesses are organized and the state may play a facilitating / mediating role in negotiations.

    The limited market economics employed by China in zones along its coast hardly make it a "capitalist" country.
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    Sep 05, 2009 9:56 PM GMT
    "The solution to the problems of capitalism is more capitalism."

    I wish I could give a more deep opinion (a few months ago I would had) but I'm currently reading about it and changing my ideas.
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    Sep 05, 2009 9:57 PM GMT
    Iguanaism, the key tenants of which are:

    o Consolidation of all media to one corporation, a subsidiary of IWD (Iguana World Domination, Inc.).

    Much greater efficiencies will be achieved when INN (Iguana Network News) controls the creation of fake news, consisting of 50% "yellow police tape" stories and 50% fear mongering ("are your children safe?", "can xxx kill you?", "is Obama a Communist Mind Controlling Alien who wants to kill your grandma and turn your kids gay? Hear both sides of this story on INN!"). IEN (Iguana Entertainment Network) will produce all entertainment media, consisting of 99% breathy celebrity profiles, divided equally between "shocking" scandals and nauseating hagiographies.

    o Centralization of all health, education, occupational, trade, financial, and any other regulation into one entity, the Iguana Global Authority (subsidiary of IWD, Inc.).

    IGA will label all products and services as "Good", "Better", and "Awesome", to help the increasingly stupid public navigate the complex and headache-inducing choices they face in their everyday lives. IGA will help people choose their food, jobs, financial plans, friends, and recreational activities with simple color-coded, easy-to-read labels. No more hurty thinking involved! IGA determines all for you!

    o The creation of the IDHG (Iguana Division of Hot Guys).

    IDHG will supervise the collection, planet-wide, of hot guys, and their movement to a secret tropical resort, where they will do nothing but eat, workout, lay about on the beach, and have "hot man sex" under the watchful eye of the ISN (Iguana Surveillance Network).


    This message has been brought to you by IWD Inc, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Sedative World Domination, Ltd
    .
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    Sep 05, 2009 10:02 PM GMT
    How about Smart Capitalism? We're a long way off from the Star Trek vision of humanity pursuing its varied passions with all "needs" satisfied by technology. Maybe one day...

    In the meantime, how about just some common sense rules for capitalism? I mean, if it's toxic to make in our country, isn't making it abroad in a country that doesn't give a sh*t, just as bad? We all share the same planet.

    If the common good and collective health isn't served by a certain type of business, then maybe we don't need that business? Or maybe that industry needs change mandated.

    Of course, it's a slippery slope, but it gets really old listening to the same old excuses made again and again and again while things crumble.

    Ok, this is a tangent, but whatever. What do you think of the Georgia Guidestones?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones

    I read about them a few months ago in Wired. I'm very surprised that I'd never heard of them. The story behind them is fascinating. In short, no one really knows who built them. As one approaches, a stone reads:

    "Let these be guidestones to an Age of Reason"

    The structure itself is Stonehenge-like. Ten guidelines are presented, presumably to the survivors of whatever is to come, in 8 languages:

    1. Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature.

    2. Guide reproduction wisely - improving fitness and diversity.

    3. Unite humanity with a living new language.

    4. Rule passion - faith - tradition - and all things with tempered reason.

    5. Protect people and nations with fair laws and just courts.

    6. Let all nations rule internally resolving external disputes in a world court.

    7. Avoid petty laws and useless officials.

    8. Balance personal rights with social duties.

    9. Prize truth - beauty - love - seeking harmony with the infinite.

    10. Be not a cancer on the earth - Leave room for nature - Leave room for nature.

    A few are a bit mundane, but the overall vision is quite striking. If we, as a species, followed these rules, we'd be unstoppable. It's about striking a balance with our environment, something we stubbornly and steadfastly refuse to do. Frankly, unless the first two guidelines are followed, nothing else matters.
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    Sep 05, 2009 11:29 PM GMT
    tahoejock said

    1. Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature.


    What do we do with the other 6.3 billion people?
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    Sep 06, 2009 12:41 AM GMT
    Navy96 said
    tahoejock said

    1. Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature.


    What do we do with the other 6.3 billion people?


    Well, the whole idea behind the Guidestones is to offer guidance to what is left of humanity, not tell us how to live now. The Guidestones recognize the obvious: we're headed for a massive correction.

    So, we don't do anything. We wait. Things have gotten so out of balance that it's only a matter of time before population is reduced. Unless you believe the planet will simply continue to degenerate into a grossly overpopulated, smoggy cosmic landfill?

    I don't think that's going to happen. We'll reach the breaking point - and when we do, the survivors will be wise to keep humanity in check and to not advocate (as pretty much every world religion foolishly does) the idea of being fruitful and multiplying (like thoughtless rabbits).
  • mustangd

    Posts: 434

    Sep 06, 2009 1:47 AM GMT
    thanks to all for chiming in, there is a great cross section of replies.

    i tend to agree, that much like on wall street, humanity is headed for a correction of some sort, if i had to put a sound to it, it would resemble the sound of a straw sucking the bottom of the glass.

    humanity is capable of great things, and we americans can rise to the occasion. let us hope we haven't forgotten how to.

    oh, and iguana island eh?

    hypnotoad corp. an unholy owned division of sedative world domination ltd.
  • DCEric

    Posts: 3713

    Sep 06, 2009 2:08 AM GMT
    Warning the thread so far is heavily based in American concepts of the world. Capitalism is awesome, football is played with something called an "endzone" and they eat something called "wheat bread".

    For (almost) everyone who posted above: The rest of the world frowns on your shenanigans. Socialism continues to rise, and has been quite successful across Western Europe. It has successfully brought a better standard of living to much of Latin America, and has now begun accepting coungtries from the other side of the cold war (ie Eastern Europe/India) and has brought stability to portions of Africa.

    To paraphrase Darwin: Adapt or Die.
  • zakariahzol

    Posts: 2241

    Sep 06, 2009 2:22 AM GMT
    The problem is OVERPOPULATION. Those poor country keep producing more and more people, with the job getting more scare and resources limited. Communism and socialism have been try and it dont work.

    Some one need to tell this , religionous authority that comparing their country to some richer, low birth rate and bigger land mass country to justify to have more citizen is just baloney. In my case , myself with no children are doing so much better economically in comparison with my other sibling with 6 or 7 kids.
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    Sep 06, 2009 2:24 AM GMT
    jarhead5536 said Capitalism is based in human selfishness and greed,

    Selfishness and greed are the most powerful engines of innovation and change. A few saintly figures may give their all for the common good, but most of humanity will work hardest only for their own advancement. Mother Theresas are rare, Bill Gateses are much more numerous. And in the larger scheme of things Bill Gates, motivated only by his desire to add to his gazillion-dollar empire, has probably enhanced the lives of more people than Mother Theresa ever did.
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    Sep 06, 2009 2:29 AM GMT
    iguanaSF saidIguanaism, the key tenants of which are:

    o Consolidation of all media to one corporation, a subsidiary of IWD (Iguana World Domination, Inc.).

    Much greater efficiencies will be achieved when INN (Iguana Network News) controls the creation of fake news, consisting of 50% "yellow police tape" stories and 50% fear mongering ("are your children safe?", "can xxx kill you?", "is Obama a Communist Mind Controlling Alien who wants to kill your grandma and turn your kids gay? Hear both sides of this story on INN!"). IEN (Iguana Entertainment Network) will produce all entertainment media, consisting of 99% breathy celebrity profiles, divided equally between "shocking" scandals and nauseating hagiographies.

    o Centralization of all health, education, occupational, trade, financial, and any other regulation into one entity, the Iguana Global Authority (subsidiary of IWD, Inc.).

    IGA will label all products and services as "Good", "Better", and "Awesome", to help the increasingly stupid public navigate the complex and headache-inducing choices they face in their everyday lives. IGA will help people choose their food, jobs, financial plans, friends, and recreational activities with simple color-coded, easy-to-read labels. No more hurty thinking involved! IGA determines all for you!

    o The creation of the IDHG (Iguana Division of Hot Guys).

    IDHG will supervise the collection, planet-wide, of hot guys, and their movement to a secret tropical resort, where they will do nothing but eat, workout, lay about on the beach, and have "hot man sex" under the watchful eye of the ISN (Iguana Surveillance Network).


    This message has been brought to you by IWD Inc, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Sedative World Domination, Ltd
    .




    ooooooohhhh.... you broke the first rule of Sedative World Domination, Ltd.

    you talked about it.

    now if he finds out, he'll send one of the battle armadas after you!

    but he is gracious. he may just punish you by making you the towel boy at the secret tropical island, forcing you to rub suntan lotion on anyone who wishes it, and fetching lube for those who desire it. oh the humanity!


    damn. i just talked about it too.
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    Sep 06, 2009 4:28 AM GMT
    I am not worried about the death Capitalism at all. Even in those countries whose economies are mixed, i.e., with a mixture of private and government ownership or a mixture of capitalism and socialism as we see in Venezuela. This does not mean that there are no threats to Capitalism in it's ability to generate sufficient growth to feed a growing populace.

    In spite of the fact there are those who believe it is better to tax those out of exisitance who possess large amounts of capital or generate capital through their endeavors, speaking from a practical point of view, that only exascerbates the stress on capital formation when it is most needed.....as in right now.

    Let me outline an example of how capital can be used to feed two goals in a capitalist economy: one goal is to build a new hospital at a cost of $90,000,000; and the second goal is to satisfy my greed. (Now there are those who would say I'm horrible to attempt to satisfy greed. All I have to say to them is THEY WOULD DO THE SAME THING, if they knew how.)

    At the moment this non-profit hospital 'organization' can't sell it's tax free bonds due to the state of our economy. No one wants the bonds. At least there are an insufficient number of primary dealers who want them. (Look that up guys, i.e. primary dealers.) The primary dealers do not believe they can sell enough of these bonds to the average Joe and when they underwrite them for the hospital, they'll be stuck with them, thus pulling their capital down with no means to build a sinking fund or pay interest.

    Now I step in. Through an ability I will not disclose.....I borrow the $90MM plus a little extra at 0.75 percent. Yes, 0.0075. I subscribe to the entire $90MM in a contract with the primary dealer provided....they set the coupon rate at 7.5%. Yes, 0.075. They end up with $90MM and are paying at rate that is high, but below the current construction loan rate.

    All the single payer health care guys are happy becuase when single payer comes online the new hospital will get lots of use, I get tax free income (well that's not the whole story here becuase I'm going to make more than that), and capitalism has saved the day.

    Now what's my monthly interest? $562,500. There abouts.

    (There's another possibility here guys provided you know the bond market. What else can I do?)

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    Sep 06, 2009 6:04 AM GMT
    Cogitor said...damn. i just talked about it too.


    See you one the Island, towel boy.
  • jarhead5536

    Posts: 1348

    Sep 06, 2009 6:35 AM GMT
    TexDef07 said
    jarhead5536 said Capitalism is based in human selfishness and greed,

    Selfishness and greed are the most powerful engines of innovation and change. A few saintly figures may give their all for the common good, but most of humanity will work hardest only for their own advancement. Mother Theresas are rare, Bill Gateses are much more numerous. And in the larger scheme of things Bill Gates, motivated only by his desire to add to his gazillion-dollar empire, has probably enhanced the lives of more people than Mother Theresa ever did.


    I think I qualified my statement better than you suggest. Capitalism's worst excesses must be controlled, but there's no better system for the advancement of civilization. And by excesses I mean apalling wealth distribution, child labor, the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory, etc.,...
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    Sep 06, 2009 12:02 PM GMT
    jarhead5536 saidThere is no viable alternative to capitalism, period. Socialism/communism is an utterly failed social systems. Now, capitalism can and will spin quickly out of control without regulation (see America from 1880-1930). Capitalism is based in human selfishness and greed, and without vigorous government regulation, you have the Gilded Age all over again. Without capitalism, there is no incentive for innovation, no worker's rights, and no social mobility...



    I'm sorry i've been around the world and i can confidently tell you Capitalism DOES NOT give any worker's rights whatsoever, they will make use of slavery or neo-slavery if possible.

    the only things that gives them rights is democracy and places that are capitalistic are not nesscessarily democractic.

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    Sep 06, 2009 12:29 PM GMT
    jprichva said
    twomack saidI am not worried about the death Capitalism at all.


    Photobucket



    Well, JP, would you have preferred an existence on some collective farm somewhere? If you meet your production quota you'll get your monthly banana to supplement the daily potato ration.
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    Sep 06, 2009 2:24 PM GMT
    jprichva said capitalism, which has a great many flaws.

    You prefer the alternative?
    And of course capitalism is not unflawed. But as Jarhead's posts correctly point out, it just works better than the other systems.
    Unless you really do yearn for the collective farm and the production quota.
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    Sep 06, 2009 3:08 PM GMT
    ps: thanks to your allotment of shapeless State-issued overalls you won't have to worry anymore if you can still wear Abercrombie.
  • mustangd

    Posts: 434

    Sep 06, 2009 3:14 PM GMT
    i'm reading in this thread how capitalism works with proper regulation. how do you properly regulate capitalism when the powers that be have gained sufficient contol over the economic system in the marketplace through deregulation and in the legislative and judicial processes through their contributions to the election process so as to resist, prevent, any needed regulation(s)?

    2nd question. i understand how capitalism can work in the example of the hospital in the above reply, but, what happens when that hospital or factory is built offshore? my point, capital investment has been moving offshore in the last 20 years, our economy after 09/11/01 was largely propelled by consumerism, obviously much of that was on credit, leading to the situation we are in now. had consumers not consumed back in 2001-2007, our economy would've tanked long before it did. we see that now, the economy has tanked because there isn't sufficient credit for consumers to maintain the propulsion needed for the economy.

    so, when capitalism chases the numbers offshore, how does it remain viable in its host country? in this example, the u.s.?

    if the u.s. economy were a car, and both the consumer and the the capitalist were passengers in it, how does the car's gas tank get refilled when the consumer is broke and the capitalist is investing his money in cars on the other side of the planet?

    to me, one of the biggest failings to date of the obama administration was failing to curb the "offshoring" of america. we pulled much of our wealth out of the ground in the u.s. back in the 1800's, we were the factory for the world post ww2, in both cases we had generated wealth "internally". now we move towards generating wealth "externally".

    so, again, how do we make capitalism work in the u.s. when regulation is doubtful because those who need regulated, control the means to regulate, and how do we propel our economic engine internally, when the resources, investment needed to do so, are spent externally?

    are we to wait for foreign countries to build our hospitals and factories when they see the u.s. as ripe for investment? are we to understand that when wages have fallen sufficiently in the u.s., american capitalism will return to investing in america? how will that work when basic costs. like food, energy, education, and taxes rise dramatically while wages stagnate or fall?
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    Sep 06, 2009 4:18 PM GMT
    jprichva said
    TexDef07 saidps: thanks to your allotment of shapeless State-issued overalls you won't have to worry anymore if you can still wear Abercrombie.

    It astonishes me that the only image that comes to anyone's mind when you mention socialism is the Soviet system, which was hardly socialist any more than "national socialism" was socialist.

    It really shows how thoroughly indoctrination and propaganda have done their job.


    Agreed. The mindless defense of American capitalism is depressing. We're 5% of the world's population and we use nearly half its energy and produce half its trash. We're turning the entire planet into a toxic landfill with our greed and unbridled consumption.

    Overalls, bread lines and collective farms? How about no clean drinking water, oceans with an average of 46,000 piece of plastic per square mile, smoggy air (they now routinely pick up air pollution from China on the US west coast), not to mention gross overpopulation.

    Any unregulated system is doomed to fail. Our brand of capitalism is turning the planet into a trash dump. People should be able to make money and provide for themselves, but there should be limits - or things get out of control. One need only look at what's happening today with jobs and production outsourced, everything plastic and disposable, and business's unwillingness to fixing anything (just throw it in the trash and buy a new one). It's a recipe for disaster. 7 billion cancer cells on the planet and counting.
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    Sep 06, 2009 4:31 PM GMT
    jprichva said
    TexDef07 saidps: thanks to your allotment of shapeless State-issued overalls you won't have to worry anymore if you can still wear Abercrombie.

    It astonishes me that the only image that comes to anyone's mind when you mention socialism is the Soviet system, which was hardly socialist any more than "national socialism" was socialist.

    Well if you disregard the Soviet system there are some equally appealing alternates to choose from: Maoist China -- love the Cultural Revolution and the Little Red Book. Cambodia -- Pol Pot and the Killing Fields. Cuba -- if you're gay you get sent to the cane fields for re-education. And the all-time favorite -- North Korea, about which little needs to be said.
    There have been a whole spectrum of socialist states of differing ideological stripes but they all had one thing in common: people would risk their lives to escape from them. There aren't any examples of a socialist state that had to build a wall to keep people out. Maybe the workers just don't recognize a good thing when they see it.
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    Sep 06, 2009 4:49 PM GMT
    Recommended Reading of the Day:

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