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Sep 13, 2009 3:10 PM GMT
Rifqa Bary converted to Chritianity and due to fear of her Muslim family/community's reaction she felt the need to runaway. Radical Muslims feel justified killing such an apostate. It appears that her family belongs to such a racial Mosque. The link below has coverage from CBN's 700 club. I am not a big fan of the CBN/700 club, but the coverage seemed more extensive than other coverage I've watched. Also, the link has an address to those who may feel moved to help this girl. The story has also been covered by more mainstream networks like CNN, ABC, etc. Do an internet seach on story if you do not trust CBN/700 club coverage. This is American and we have Freedom of Religion. I am all for religious pluralism, but have to admit I am very concerned about the increasing Muslim population in the United States. Muslims (when they are the majority) seem to have little respect the Seperation of Church and State. I've heard that the Netherlands require Muslim immigrants to watch a video explaining how in the Netherlands things like smoking pot and homosexuality are accepted. The reason for this is that Muslim immmigrants tended to be very intolerant of those things in others. Back in the U.S at the Minneapolis Airport Muslim cab drivers wouldn't pick up people with alcohol or sight seeing dogs. Muslims are welcome to this country, but they need to understand that things like "honor killings", enforcing sharia laws, etc. WILL NOT BE TOLERATED. Really threatening to punish or even kill someone for converting to another religion! Chrisitians haven't justified such things since the inquisition, reformation, and witch burnings. http://rifqabary.com |
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Sep 13, 2009 5:30 PM GMT
Really, leave the poor deluded girl alone. She's done nothing more than change mental hospitals. Geesh!
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Sep 13, 2009 5:43 PM GMT
So you are taking the words of one fanatical religious organization to hype hysteria about another religion?
Logic fail.
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Sep 13, 2009 5:48 PM GMT
Ganymede0 saidSo you are taking the words of one fanatical religious organization to hype hysteria about another religion?
Logic fail. You cannot correctly accuse Phemt of doing such. The report is what it is. I am concerned about people coming to live in America and brining their cultural norms with them and expecting America to change and accept the cultural norms of their origins. |
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Sep 13, 2009 5:49 PM GMT
Blackguy4you saidGanymede0 saidSo you are taking the words of one fanatical religious organization to hype hysteria about another religion?
Logic fail.
You cannot accuse Phemt of doing such. The report is what it is.
I am concerned about people coming to live in America and brining their cultural norms with them and expecting America to change and accept the cultural norms of their origins.
He sites an article from CBN and then goes on to make generalizations about Muslims. How is what I said wrong? |
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Sep 13, 2009 5:53 PM GMT
Ganymede0 saidBlackguy4you saidGanymede0 saidSo you are taking the words of one fanatical religious organization to hype hysteria about another religion?
Logic fail.
You cannot accuse Phemt of doing such. The report is what it is.
I am concerned about people coming to live in America and brining their cultural norms with them and expecting America to change and accept the cultural norms of their origins.
He sites an article from CBN and then goes on to make generalizations about Muslims.
How is what I said wrong? Read more carefully. He said that this item has been carried by several other news groups such as CNN and ABC. Did you perchance check any of them? His argument is that he is concerned about the separation of church and state by religious groups and he points out the muslim community. Point out to him where his assertions are wrong. |
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Sep 13, 2009 6:00 PM GMT
Blackguy4you saidGanymede0 saidBlackguy4you saidGanymede0 saidSo you are taking the words of one fanatical religious organization to hype hysteria about another religion?
Logic fail.
You cannot accuse Phemt of doing such. The report is what it is.
I am concerned about people coming to live in America and brining their cultural norms with them and expecting America to change and accept the cultural norms of their origins.
He sites an article from CBN and then goes on to make generalizations about Muslims.
How is what I said wrong?
Read more carefully. He said that this item has been carried by several other news groups such as CNN and ABC. Did you perchance check any of them? Oh well in that case! Since he SAID it must be true. Where are the citations or the links? Please! Religious hysteria is religious hysteria. You aren't going to convince me otherwise. Especially not with someone using CBN as a source or linking to a site that features the CBN coverage... or did you perchance bother to even click the link? It leads to other sites like JihadWatch.com! Seriously?! |
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Sep 13, 2009 6:07 PM GMT
Ganymede0 saidBlackguy4you saidGanymede0 saidBlackguy4you saidGanymede0 saidSo you are taking the words of one fanatical religious organization to hype hysteria about another religion?
Logic fail.
You cannot accuse Phemt of doing such. The report is what it is.
I am concerned about people coming to live in America and brining their cultural norms with them and expecting America to change and accept the cultural norms of their origins.
He sites an article from CBN and then goes on to make generalizations about Muslims.
How is what I said wrong?
Read more carefully. He said that this item has been carried by several other news groups such as CNN and ABC. Did you perchance check any of them?
Oh well in that case! Since he SAID it must be true.
Where are the citations or the links?
Please! Religious hysteria is religious hysteria. You aren't going to convince me otherwise. Especially not with someone using CBN as a source or linking to a site that features the CBN coverage... or did you perchance bother to even click the link? Oh for Pete's sake! I don't have it in me today dude. I'm waiting for a big wet kiss from a Republican in a bathroom. I can't have you spoil my mood by getting into one of these back and forth things. If you don't know what CNN and ABC are - well it's time for you to educate yourself. ~cheers~ |
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Sep 13, 2009 6:14 PM GMT
Blackguy4you saidGanymede0 saidBlackguy4you saidGanymede0 saidBlackguy4you saidGanymede0 saidSo you are taking the words of one fanatical religious organization to hype hysteria about another religion?
Logic fail.
You cannot accuse Phemt of doing such. The report is what it is.
I am concerned about people coming to live in America and brining their cultural norms with them and expecting America to change and accept the cultural norms of their origins.
He sites an article from CBN and then goes on to make generalizations about Muslims.
How is what I said wrong?
Read more carefully. He said that this item has been carried by several other news groups such as CNN and ABC. Did you perchance check any of them?
Oh well in that case! Since he SAID it must be true.
Where are the citations or the links?
Please! Religious hysteria is religious hysteria. You aren't going to convince me otherwise. Especially not with someone using CBN as a source or linking to a site that features the CBN coverage... or did you perchance bother to even click the link?
Oh for Pete's sake! I don't have it in me today dude. I'm waiting for a big wet kiss from a Republican in a bathroom. I can't have you spoil my mood by getting into one of these back and forth things.
If you don't know what CNN and ABC are - well it's time for you to educate yourself.
~cheers~ LOL! Yes, I know very well what CNN and ABC! Maybe you should explore them sometime and some more indepth news sources while you're at it. I also know what a logical fallacy is and when someone is running from an argument they know they failed miserably at! But thanks for the laugh! |
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Sep 13, 2009 6:22 PM GMT
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Sep 13, 2009 6:56 PM GMT
An ex bf of mine sought asylum in the US to escape his Muslim family/community in Indonesia. His mother stills consistantly sends him text/emails telling him to "get right" with his faith. He loves his mother/family, but realized how dangerous it would be for him to continue living near them being that he is a homosexual. Muslims tend not to like Homosexuality - if you haven't noticed.
Anyways back to this story, if it turns out that these Christians are using this girl as a propaganda war against Muslims I will gladly admit I was mislead - even stupid - falling for this. My concern and heart really is for this girl.
Either she really has reason to be scared of her family, or she is being used by these Christians for propaganda.
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Sep 13, 2009 7:40 PM GMT
They aren't using it as propaganda, that would be a bit too much. Does it paint a bad picture? Ya, but so did all the Muslim papers during priest sex scandals.
20/20, PBS, and others (including major documentaries) have all contributed time and money to "honor-killings". Many, many women (and men) have sought asylum in the States (and a lot of other countries).
I understand the worry you have, but I tend to think that the worry based in Muslims in the states is unfounded as an honor killing here would lead to the largest outcry and backlash in their community. The US law is beyond anything that Sharia Law or Muslim code talks. Specifically in other Middle Eastern and Indo-Asian countries, the law doesn't protect women or men whose father/uncles/brothers determine that one should die in honor of Allah.
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Sep 13, 2009 7:55 PM GMT
Christian village in Palestine just north of Ramallah, there was one guy converted to Islam and nobody in the village respect him. He died few years ago from lungs cancer and nobody go to his funeral. He was buried in the Muslim cemetery.
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Sep 13, 2009 7:55 PM GMT
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Sep 13, 2009 8:02 PM GMT
I don't like the 700 club or CBN, because they both run by Pat Robertson a Muslim hater. He is a radical televangelist that want people to believe he is god.
Don't fall in this bullsh!t phemt. Of course there are bad Muslims just like there are bad Christians and bad Jews.
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Sep 13, 2009 8:16 PM GMT
sxydrkhair saidI don't like the 700 club or CBN, because they both run by Pat Robertson a Muslim hater. He is a radical televangelist that want people to believe he is god.
Don't fall in this bullsh!t phemt. Of course there are bad Muslims just like there are bad Christians and bad Jews. Trust me I am completely aware of CBN's ties/aganda. Why do you think this girl felt the need to run away though? This story is not made up - it is real. Yes not all Muslims are bad; Not all Christians are bad; Not all Atheist are bad; Not all Repblicans are bad; etc - lets get that out of the way. Is this girl, in this case, justified in being fearful of her family/Muslim community for converting to Christianity? I just came across this today and posted to get others feedback. I am curious how this story plays out. Most families get upset if another family member switches religious, but I am only aware of Muslims actually killing an apostate. |
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Sep 13, 2009 8:43 PM GMT
phemt saidI am all for religious pluralism, but have to admit I am very concerned about the increasing Muslim population in the United States. Muslims (when they are the majority) seem to have little respect the Seperation of Church and State.
You've got to be kidding me?? That is one of the most ignorant things I have ever heard. First off, your complaint that there is no "Separation of Church of State" in a predominantly Muslim society. This is in part because the Koran provides a set of laws to follow. However, in the case of Turkey, or more pluralistic Islamic societies, religion is put in check by government. So not ALL Muslim majorities have strict Sharia law. Secondly, Indonesia, the largest Muslim population and fourth most populated nation in the world, has an 86.1% Muslim population. However, it is a Republic with an elected legislature and president, and exercises religious liberty as well. The Indonesian constitution states: "every person shall be free to choose and to practice the religion of his/her choice" and "guarantees all persons the freedom of worship, each according to his/her own religion or belief". Doesn't sound too disrespectful of church and state now, does it? Thirdly, the same problem applies to the United States, as well. Any religion has a potential to influence legislators and laws, but a strong constitution such as the United States's or Netherlands's blocks a dominant majority religion from imposing their religion by law. However, any strong demographic has an influence in who is elected and representing the population. Where do you think we have such homophobic American culture emanating from? Why do you think gays don't have rights? I'll give you a hint: it's not the Muslims. It's the Christians. In contradiction to your rather racist sounding comment, you should have noted that any religion needs to be put in check, not just the Muslims you seem to have some uneducated, overblown, and rather irrational fear of. Please educate yourself before you make such ignorant statements in the future. Thanks, Brett PS - I would have voted for Barack Obama even if he had been Muslim. |
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Sep 13, 2009 9:11 PM GMT
Stuff like this happens all over the world to all kinds of people, why's everyone making this such a big story? Organized Mainstream Religion is all bullshit doesnt matter who what or where. Right now the focus is on 'evil muslims', i'm sure in 20 years we'll move on to turning some OTHER religion into an evil twisted scary beast of HELL!! WWII era - all japanese-americans are tortured etc. 50 years later and all of a sudden the evil japanese out to kill us all have suddenly become one of the biggest raves this country has ever seen - the number of american students studying japanese and trying to move to japan is higher than any other country and raising at a scary level. then came the "evil communist red party" - and so many other stupid examples. We get bored with peace and complacency so we do our best to scare ourselves into thinking there are monsters in every corner. The same bullshit happens all the time with just different groups of ppl - this story is just more bs in a long history of the stuff, get over it people. Why are we so concerned with this one girl when so many THOUSANDS are being butchered all over the world for this and even LESS reasons? Shouldn't you be concerend over entire families in darfur being murdered merely for existing? Shouldn't we be just as concerned about all the poor american orphans that need homes? all the people all over the world poor and dying from thirst and hunger? there was a man not too long ago who butchered his wife, cut her to bits, and was found walking butt-naked in the snow in the middle of nowhere trying to escape authorities. He was your everyday white typical american joe. Why aren't we freaking out over HIS story? because it's not in our interest to scare the shit out of ourselves over our own people. not quite as fun for us then is it? finding these single stories and trying to make them into something huge and unbelievable is all just dumb waste-of-time frightening of us "civilized" people. GET OVER THE HYPE PEOPLE  |
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Sep 13, 2009 9:23 PM GMT
I think if somebody moves to one country, he/she should follow the laws enforced by that government and they shouldn't be allowed any special religious law concessions.
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Sep 13, 2009 9:27 PM GMT
MotorBrett saidphemt saidI am all for religious pluralism, but have to admit I am very concerned about the increasing Muslim population in the United States. Muslims (when they are the majority) seem to have little respect the Seperation of Church and State.
You've got to be kidding me?? That is one of the most ignorant things I have ever heard.
First off, your complaint that there is no "Separation of Church of State" in a predominantly Muslim society. This is in part because the Koran provides a set of laws to follow. However, in the case of Turkey, or more pluralistic Islamic societies, religion is put in check by government. So not ALL Muslim majorities have strict Sharia law.
Secondly, Indonesia, the largest Muslim population and fourth most populated nation in the world, has an 86.1% Muslim population. However, it is a Republic with an elected legislature and president, and exercises religious liberty as well. The Indonesian constitution states: "every person shall be free to choose and to practice the religion of his/her choice" and "guarantees all persons the freedom of worship, each according to his/her own religion or belief". Doesn't sound too disrespectful of church and state now, does it?
Thirdly, the same problem applies to the United States, as well. Any religion has a potential to influence legislators and laws, but a strong constitution such as the United States's or Netherlands's blocks a dominant majority religion from imposing their religion by law.
However, any strong demographic has an influence in who is elected and representing the population. Where do you think we have such homophobic American culture emanating from? Why do you think gays don't have rights? I'll give you a hint: it's not the Muslims. It's the Christians.
In contradiction to your rather racist sounding comment, you should have noted that any religion needs to be put in check, not just the Muslims you seem to have some uneducated, overblown, and rather irrational fear of.
Please educate yourself before you make such ignorant statements in the future.
Thanks,
Brett
PS - I would have voted for Barack Obama even if he had been Muslim.
Ok - Not all Muslims are bad. I was mostly referring to Saudi Arabia. I've heard several muslims balk at any idea of their holy land not being an "offically Muslim country". American Homophobic culture is not nearly as bad as in several muslim countries. Would you like to compare how many homosexuals from Muslim counties seek asylum in the US compared to the other way around? Anyways, my main point of this post is "why did this girl feel the need to run away from her Muslim community?" |
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Sep 13, 2009 9:30 PM GMT
Since this topic has gone off in so many different directions lets focus on this question:
Should this girl be returned to her Muslim family?
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Sep 13, 2009 9:50 PM GMT
[quote][cite]MotorBrett said[/cite]
...
In contradiction to your rather racist sounding comment, you should have noted that any religion needs to be put in check, not just the Muslims you seem to have some uneducated, overblown, and rather irrational fear of.
Please educate yourself before you make such ignorant statements in the future.
...
I wasn't aware that Muslim is a race.
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Sep 13, 2009 9:55 PM GMT
Uggh, Islam is a religion, not a race. Just like Christianity. An attack on a set of ideas can never - ever - be racist.
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Sep 13, 2009 10:12 PM GMT
phemt said[quote][cite]MotorBrett said[/cite]
...
In contradiction to your rather racist sounding comment, you should have noted that any religion needs to be put in check, not just the Muslims you seem to have some uneducated, overblown, and rather irrational fear of.
Please educate yourself before you make such ignorant statements in the future.
...
I wasn't aware that Muslim is a race.
According to the United Nations conventions, there is no distinction between the term racial discrimination and ethnic discrimination. An ethnic group is a group of humans whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage that is real or presumed. Ethnic identity is further marked by the recognition from others of a group's distinctiveness and the recognition of common cultural, linguistic, religious, behavioural traits as indicators of contrast to other groups. Thus, logically: Discrimination against Muslims (a religious and ethnic identity) --> Racism (no difference between race/ethnic discrimation). |
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Sep 13, 2009 10:35 PM GMT
Should she be returned to her family if there is a real possibility that she may be injured (mentally or physically)? Obviously the answer is no. Just as no queer youth should ever be forcibly returned to a dangerous situation. In all cases such as this the safety of the child should take precedence over all other factors.
Religion doesn't even factor into it but some of the comments about Muslims in this thread are disturbing. All of the new world countries are populated by immigrants that brought new ideas and ways of thinking to their new home; they were incorporated and their ideas gradually accepted or rejected culturally. To assume or demand a different way of doing things is to demand culture stasis. Anyone who demands stasis clearly has not been paying attention to the last 200 years of modern history. Western societies march onward, any regression is only temporary.
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Sep 16, 2009 2:35 AM GMT
[quote][cite]MotorBrett said[/cite]
...
However, any strong demographic has an influence in who is elected and representing the population. Where do you think we have such homophobic American culture emanating from? Why do you think gays don't have rights? I'll give you a hint: it's not the Muslims. It's the Christians.
In contradiction to your rather racist sounding comment, you should have noted that any religion needs to be put in check, not just the Muslims you seem to have some uneducated, overblown, and rather irrational fear of.
Please educate yourself before you make such ignorant statements in the future.
Thanks,
Brett
...
Tell me if you know of any Christians doing stuff like this in the name of Christianity -
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/13/iraq-gays-murdered-militias
And you wonder why Muslim immigration concerns me!
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Sep 16, 2009 2:45 AM GMT
Phemt -
Um... You mean you have forgotten already that gay boys and girls continue to be beaten up killed in the United States because they are gay?
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Sep 16, 2009 3:00 AM GMT
I was in Sénégal last fall. It is a 95% Muslim country but people convert back and forth between Christianity and Islam all the time. It's no big deal. In the west Muslims tend to become quite liberal when they have reached their second or third generation and take on some western values. I am sure there are individual exceptions, but that is the trend. In Canada, one of the most vocal supporters of gay marriage was the Muslim Canadian Congress. See: http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/Some other progressive Muslim sites are: http://www.progressiveislam.orghttp://www.islamicate.com/islamicate/Christians used to do this all the time, and not all the long ago. Read your history. Apostates (and converts between different version of Christianity) were executed and expelled and gays were routinely killed in Christian countries. And I say this as a practising Christian. Islam is about where Christianity was a century ago. People can use religion, political ideology, language, ethnicity and pretty much any criteria to justify doing bad things to other people. It's part of the human condition. I don't worry much about Muslim immigration to the west. We have much more to worry about with the angry right-wing Christian White minority than with Muslims. Most Muslims are horrified at the honour killings and the use of Sharia law etc. Many came here to escape that. And get real, people have come to America and expected America to adapt to their culture since America began. Otherwise we'd all be speaking Indian languages and adopting their cultural practises. |
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Sep 16, 2009 3:00 AM GMT
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Sep 16, 2009 3:04 AM GMT
creature saidPhemt -
Um... You mean you have forgotten already that gay boys and girls continue to be beaten up killed in the United States because they are gay? You think you would be treated better as a gay person in a Muslim country? An ex bf of mine had to seek asylum in the U.S to get away from his Muslim family/community in Indonesia - and he isn't the only one. How many gay Americans do you know seeking Asylum in Muslims countries? |
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Sep 16, 2009 3:05 AM GMT
This is lame.
Criminals do criminal things for all kinds of reasons - including religious justifications. In the U.S. right-wing Christians killed a doctor for performing abortions, which is legal.
None of this speaks to the 99.9% of peaceful believers.
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Sep 16, 2009 3:08 AM GMT
One of my closest friends is not merely a Muslim, he is an imam who preaches at a mosque near West Palm Beach. He has no problem with my being gay.
Knowing him for the past seven years has been a real education in the stereotyping of Muslims. He fits none of the popular clichés.
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Sep 16, 2009 3:09 AM GMT
Yes religion produces nut jobs - no question about that. I think Islam leads to more nut jobs than Christianity. As you said Christianity is Hundred years ahead of Islam.
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Sep 16, 2009 3:09 AM GMT
So what if gays aren't seeking asylum in Muslim countries? What does that have to do with Muslim immigration HERE?
Muslims make up all of 3% of the American population. So what's the big deal? The U.S. is going to be a Spanish speaking country long before it becomes a Muslim one, and this assumes that every Muslim is observant, which isn't even true in the majority of cases.
Again, why judge all Muslims based on a few fanatics? What a weird fear.
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Sep 16, 2009 3:12 AM GMT
I am not saying all Muslims are anti-gay or even extremist. I am suggesting you would find a higher % that are compared to the general population.
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Sep 16, 2009 3:13 AM GMT
Even if this is true, so what?
You'll find higher rates of HIV among gays than straights in this country. What should we infer about that?
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Sep 16, 2009 3:15 AM GMT
dantoujours said
Christians used to do this all the time, and not all the long ago. Read your history. Apostates (and converts between different version of Christianity) were executed and expelled and gays were routinely killed in Christian countries. And I say this as a practising Christian. Islam is about where Christianity was a century ago.
I am completely aware of Christian history on the matter - but like you said "Islam is about where Christianity was a century ago." I couldn't agree with you more  |
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Sep 16, 2009 3:17 AM GMT
dantoujours saidEven if this is true, so what?
You'll find higher rates of HIV among gays than straights in this country. What should we infer about that?
That gays are more likely to engage in risky behavior (i.e., unsafe sex). |
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Sep 16, 2009 3:18 AM GMT
But it's changing fast, particularly in the west, which was also my point, which you seem to ignore.
You keep dodging the point here. Why did you start this thread? What are you advocating? Do you want to round up and deport Muslims? Do you want to block immigration from Muslim countries? Are we supposed to segregate them? Or do you just want the rest of us to be scared?
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Sep 16, 2009 3:21 AM GMT
phemt saiddantoujours saidEven if this is true, so what?
You'll find higher rates of HIV among gays than straights in this country. What should we infer about that?
That gays are more likely to engage in risky behavior (i.e., unsafe sex). Ok. And blacks have more family breakdown and Indians have higher rates of alcoholism.. so what's your point? |
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Sep 16, 2009 3:21 AM GMT
dantoujours saidEven if this is true, so what?
You'll find higher rates of HIV among gays than straights in this country. What should we infer about that?
that gays are licentious, permissive sluts!  |
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Sep 16, 2009 3:25 AM GMT
As Muslims make up higher numbers in places like Minnesota let's see what type laws those communites enact. If the community becomes more liberal and open I will gladly admit my fears were ungrounded. If, however, these areas press for stricter laws and become more intolerant will you admit that I was justified in my fears?
You know about the Muslim cab drives at the Minneapolis airport right?
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Sep 16, 2009 3:25 AM GMT
Blackguy4you saiddantoujours saidEven if this is true, so what?
You'll find higher rates of HIV among gays than straights in this country. What should we infer about that?
that gays are licentious, permissive sluts! ...and not nearly enough of them have my telephone number. |
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Sep 16, 2009 3:26 AM GMT
jprichva saidBlackguy4you saiddantoujours saidEven if this is true, so what?
You'll find higher rates of HIV among gays than straights in this country. What should we infer about that?
that gays are licentious, permissive sluts!
...and not nearly enough of them have my telephone number. LOL- that's because they've heard thru the grape vine that you don't date |
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Sep 16, 2009 3:27 AM GMT
Well I guess I don't get it. I was raised to evaluate everyone based on their personal characters. I don't use labels to judge groups of people. I guess I thought being gay would make this approach obvious, but I guess not.
I live in an area with a growing Muslim population and see women in burqas and headscarves all the time. My liberal Episcopal church with our openly gay priest is active in interfaith dialogue and cooperation and the local Muslim community who gives money and time to staff our community foodbank, which has helped a lot of people of all faiths, or none, through this recession.
As far as I am concerned, the most diversity the better. Most seem to be just like me - wanting to find a place in this society and make a living.
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Sep 16, 2009 3:28 AM GMT
Blackguy4you saidLOL- that's because they've heard thru the grape vine that you don't date So nobody wants a challenge? |
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Sep 16, 2009 3:29 AM GMT
jprichva saidBlackguy4you saidLOL- that's because they've heard thru the grape vine that you don't date
So nobody wants a challenge? gay men????? challenge????????? you do realize we are talking about gay men right?? |
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Sep 16, 2009 3:30 AM GMT
dantoujours saidBut it's changing fast, particularly in the west, which was also my point, which you seem to ignore.
You keep dodging the point here. Why did you start this thread? What are you advocating? Do you want to round up and deport Muslims? Do you want to block immigration from Muslim countries? Are we supposed to segregate them? Or do you just want the rest of us to be scared? NO! I never said Deport anyone. I am concerned. I am not even sure if I would favor limiting immigration. But when Muslims cab drives act like the did at the airport it makes me concerned. When a girl has to run away from her Muslim family/community because she is scared she will be killed - it concerns me. |
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Sep 16, 2009 3:32 AM GMT
phemt saidAs Muslims make up higher numbers in places like Minnesota let's see what type laws those communites enact. If the community becomes more liberal and open I will gladly admit my fears were ungrounded. If, however, these areas press for stricter laws and become more intolerant will you admit that I was justified in my fears?
You know about the Muslim cab drives at the Minneapolis airport right? LOL. What laws do you really think they are going to enact? And how do you think the courts will react? You mean the same Minnesota that has the openly Muslim Congressman Keith Ellison (see: http://www.alternet.org/rights/69575/ ) who spoke out in favour of gay marriage in congress? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqqC1klDpbcAnd are you saying that all Muslim cab drivers at Minneapolis airport do these things? And again, who cares? They lose the fare. The passenger moves on to the next cab. You'll find fundamentalist Christians who refuse business to people they don't like too. Why should you care about Muslims and not them? |
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Sep 16, 2009 3:32 AM GMT
phemt saiddantoujours saidBut it's changing fast, particularly in the west, which was also my point, which you seem to ignore.
You keep dodging the point here. Why did you start this thread? What are you advocating? Do you want to round up and deport Muslims? Do you want to block immigration from Muslim countries? Are we supposed to segregate them? Or do you just want the rest of us to be scared?
NO! I never said Deport anyone. I am concerned. I am not even sure if I would favor limiting immigration. But when Muslims cab drives act like the did at the airport it makes me concerned. When a girl has to run away from her Muslim family/community because she is scared she will be killed - it concerns me. I see. So you're a bigot. Got it. |
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Sep 16, 2009 3:36 AM GMT
There is a growing number as Muslims here in Chicago and I don't take issue with most of them. In college though as part of a world religion class we did go to a Mosque. After the service we were talking to one of the leaders of the Mosque. Know what he told us - that it is the responsiblity of a Muslim to enforce Muslim law on the community (even on non-Muslims)! Maybe he was just a racial Muslim and not representative of the typical Muslim. I don't know, but his statement has stuck with me to this day.
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Sep 16, 2009 3:38 AM GMT
dantoujours saidphemt saiddantoujours saidBut it's changing fast, particularly in the west, which was also my point, which you seem to ignore.
You keep dodging the point here. Why did you start this thread? What are you advocating? Do you want to round up and deport Muslims? Do you want to block immigration from Muslim countries? Are we supposed to segregate them? Or do you just want the rest of us to be scared?
NO! I never said Deport anyone. I am concerned. I am not even sure if I would favor limiting immigration. But when Muslims cab drives act like the did at the airport it makes me concerned. When a girl has to run away from her Muslim family/community because she is scared she will be killed - it concerns me.
I see. So you're a bigot. Got it. Call me what ever names you want! |
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Sep 16, 2009 3:39 AM GMT
And that's one man's opinion. Other Muslims think differently.
Again, you'll find right-wing Christians who want to enforce Biblical law on non-Christians too. They are called Dominionists and there are a few of them in Congress.
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Sep 16, 2009 3:40 AM GMT
phemt saiddantoujours saidphemt saiddantoujours saidBut it's changing fast, particularly in the west, which was also my point, which you seem to ignore.
You keep dodging the point here. Why did you start this thread? What are you advocating? Do you want to round up and deport Muslims? Do you want to block immigration from Muslim countries? Are we supposed to segregate them? Or do you just want the rest of us to be scared?
NO! I never said Deport anyone. I am concerned. I am not even sure if I would favor limiting immigration. But when Muslims cab drives act like the did at the airport it makes me concerned. When a girl has to run away from her Muslim family/community because she is scared she will be killed - it concerns me.
I see. So you're a bigot. Got it.
Call me what ever names you want! I am sorry but you want to discriminate against Muslims in immigration based solely on their religion, not on the actions or character of the individual who is immigrating. What else is that, but bigotry? |
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Sep 16, 2009 3:42 AM GMT
dantoujours said
...
You mean the same Minnesota that has the openly Muslim Congressman Keith Ellison (see: http://www.alternet.org/rights/69575/ ) who spoke out in favour of gay marriage in congress?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqqC1klDpbc
...
You'll find fundamentalist Christians who refuse business to people they don't like too. Why should you care about Muslims and not them?
I know of Keith Ellison, and I completely approved of his desire/right to take his oath of office on an Qur'an.
Yes, Christians can be extremist also. An extreme Christian dosn't want gays to have the right to marry. An extreme Muslim wants to kill gays. |
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Sep 16, 2009 3:44 AM GMT
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Sep 16, 2009 3:44 AM GMT
dantoujours saidAnd that's one man's opinion. Other Muslims think differently.
Again, you'll find right-wing Christians who want to enforce Biblical law on non-Christians too. They are called Dominionists and there are a few of them in Congress. Any and ALL right-wing religious people concern me. |
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Sep 16, 2009 3:46 AM GMT
Then go after right-wing people, not Muslims.
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Sep 16, 2009 3:48 AM GMT
dantoujours said
Ok. And blacks have more family breakdown and Indians have higher rates of alcoholism.. so what's your point?
Blacks are more likely to have weak family ties and Native Americans tend to have lower self-esteem due to being kicked off their lands and treated like shit.
Any other questions ? |
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Sep 16, 2009 3:49 AM GMT
Nice dodge.
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Sep 16, 2009 3:51 AM GMT
dantoujours saidUhhh... no. Have you listened to Baptist Pastor Steven Anderson just this past week?
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/god-commands-you-kill-gays.html yes he is an example of a religious nut job. Want to compare how many gays are killed in Muslim lands compared to Christian ones? And only counting when "Religion" was giving as a reason for the killing? |
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Sep 16, 2009 3:57 AM GMT
Do you know how many gays were killed in Europe in the holocaust alone by Christians acting out of their religion? About 250,000. Christians used the Leviticus verses to justify killing gays up until the 20th Century when western countries stopped killing altogether.
This is like any other bigotry. It involves a whitewashing of our history and culture while applying different standards to others.
You don't like Muslims and want them to go away because they scare you. You want the government to discriminate against them based on their label because you find them threatening.
You are no different than those who want to do the same to us.
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Sep 16, 2009 3:59 AM GMT
dantoujours saidDo you know how many gays were killed in Europe in the holocaust alone by Christians acting out of their religion? About 250,000. Christians used the Leviticus verses to justify killing gays up until the 20th Century when western countries stopped killing altogether.
This is like any other bigotry. It involves a whitewashing of our history and culture while applying different standards to others.
You don't like Muslims and want them to go away because they scare you. You want the government to discriminate against them because of their label because you find them threatening. You are no different than those who want to do the same to us.
When did I call for government action against Muslims ? I am suspicious of them, just as I am of most overly religious people. |
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Sep 16, 2009 4:00 AM GMT
Restricting immigration of Muslims = government action, n'est-ce pas?
And maybe you're backtracking now, but your issue wasn't with all overtly religious people. In fact, you first said that Christians don't call for killing gays and when I found one quick example of this you changed the subject and started talking body counts.
Your issue isn't with overtly religious people. You apply a double standard there. It's with Muslims specifically.
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Sep 16, 2009 4:21 AM GMT
dantoujours saidRestricting immigration of Muslims = government action, n'est-ce pas?
And maybe you're backtracking now, but your issue wasn't with all overtly religious people. In fact, you first said that Christians don't call for killing gays and when I found one quick example of this you changed the subject and started talking body counts.
Your issue isn't with overtly religious people. You apply a double standard there. It's with Muslims specifically. dantoujours - Agreed. Very bigoted and rather ignorant point of view... And, really rather disappointing, especially coming from a gay. phempt - You should really look into the truth of what you say before you slander a whole group with your unfair "concern". Your primary reference, a Pat Robertson 700 club article, really gives us all clarity that this is basic religious discrimination at its best. But, to circumvent the entire attack on what you've asked and actually answer your question: the Netherlands teaches immigrants that Dutch culture is different from their home, to easier achieve a societal cohesion, assimilation and amalgamation into their new country. Why wouldn't they let people know that their law and society is different?
It is a standard they have there. I am more curious, if America, a predominantly Christian nation, teaches immigrants it is okay to be gay? I highly doubt it. (MTV seems to teach that with all the gay best-friends on shows like the Hills and such.) Religious extremism is NOT synonymous with Islam. Media reports on terrorism give us that perspective. Christians killed Matthew Shepard. Christians killed the tens of thousands of gays exterminated in the homosexual holocaust. And Christians seek to impose their viewpoints and cultural laws into United States law, at every turn. (See Arkansas) However, we, as a people, need to step above the fears and confines of societal prejudice. We are no better than ignorant extremists when we voice "concern" over a generalized group that has done us no wrong, because that is exactly what we have become.So, yes, protect the girl from her family, in the same way we protect the girl from cruelty in any society. But don't blame the whole society. And remember that our society has its own flaws. |
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Sep 16, 2009 4:21 AM GMT
MORE power to her! its easy to believe something in a free world... to do this in such a hostile environment... AMAZING!
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Sep 16, 2009 4:23 AM GMT
dantoujours saidRestricting immigration of Muslims = government action, n'est-ce pas?
And maybe you're backtracking now, but your issue wasn't with all overtly religious people. In fact, you first said that Christians don't call for killing gays and when I found one quick example of this you changed the subject and started talking body counts.
Your issue isn't with overtly religious people. You apply a double standard there. It's with Muslims specifically. Did that pastor actually kill any people? I never said I didn't want any Muslims immigration. What I said was: "Muslims are welcome to this country, but they need to understand that things like "honor killings", enforcing sharia laws, etc. WILL NOT BE TOLERATED. Really threatening to punish or even kill someone for converting to another religion!" Direct quote from my first post here. If you also read my posts you would had noticed I talked about a Muslim ex-bf of my from Indonesia. His family/community treated him so badly he had to seek asylum to escape from them. He told me about several others needing to do the same thing. I am sure you could figured out we had several hated debates about religion. Obviously though I supported his immigration here ( I even sat on his trial). I never for a second thought of not dating him because he was Muslim. I respected Ramadan and didn't eat in front of him while he was fasting. |
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Sep 16, 2009 4:26 AM GMT
[quote][cite]MotorBrett said[/cite]
...
Your primary reference, a Pat Robertson 700 club article, really gives us all clarity that this is basic religious discrimination at its best.
...
I've posted links to other news covering the story as well.
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Sep 16, 2009 4:26 AM GMT
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Sep 16, 2009 4:31 AM GMT
dantoujours saidRestricting immigration of Muslims = government action, n'est-ce pas?
And maybe you're backtracking now, but your issue wasn't with all overtly religious people. In fact, you first said that Christians don't call for killing gays and when I found one quick example of this you changed the subject and started talking body counts.
Your issue isn't with overtly religious people. You apply a double standard there. It's with Muslims specifically. That is so funny. On another post I was attacked for only criticizing Christians and not other religions like Islam. The summary of my response was because christians have more influence in this country. That being said, worldwide I think Islam is a much bigger threat than Chiristianity. This is all the more true for homosexuals. |
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Sep 16, 2009 4:33 AM GMT
MotorBrett said
According to the United Nations conventions, there is no distinction between the term racial discrimination and ethnic discrimination.
An ethnic group is a group of humans whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage that is real or presumed.
Ethnic identity is further marked by the recognition from others of a group's distinctiveness and the recognition of common cultural, linguistic, religious, behavioural traits as indicators of contrast to other groups.
Thus, logically:
Discrimination against Muslims (a religious and ethnic identity) --> Racism (no difference between race/ethnic discrimation).
Arab is the ethnicity. Muslim is a religion practiced by many but not all Arabs. Other Arabs adhere to Christianity, Judaism, and even pagan religions and they're no less Arab than the Arab Muslims. In fact, most Arab Muslims would probably be offended if you called a Christian Arab something other than Arab. They share a language, history, and cultural values (one of which is being spiritual people), but not a religion. The UN list isn't a checklist, it's just an inclusive summary of what ethnicity could mean. It doesn't fit to call Muslims a race or ethnicity because they're Arab. The definition you're talking about was created after the Holocaust to take into account the special link Jews have to their unique religion. They were persecuted for being Jewish and being a member of that tribe. It just so happens they all shared the same religion as well so that provision was added as a security measure against another holocaust. Muslim is not a race or ethnicity. By that logic I could say anyone could racially profile me for being Catholic just because I participate in Catholic culture but it's not my ethnicity or my race, just as 'Muslim' isn't an ethnicity, it's a component in a larger holistic puzzle that makes up the Arab identity. |
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Sep 16, 2009 4:54 AM GMT
Gee I am just posting my thoughts. It isn't like I am out in protesting at a mosque, beating up muslims, or throwing rocks at their homes. - I'll save that for the Catholics ( I am joking of course) An ex bf of mine was Muslim, I recently went on a few dates with another Muslim - doesn't sound like I am all that bigoted against Individual Muslims. I saw how my muslim ex bf would often give money to homeless people eventhough he didn't have much money. How it pained him that he couldn't afford to give alms (2-3% of his income) that his religion asked of him. I also listened in horror when he said thiefs should have their hands cut off for stealing and the sin of Adultery should be punished by being stoned to death. He thought Islam should be the offical religion in the holy land (i.e. Saudi Arabia). His view was is you are not Muslim you shouldn't be in the Muslim holy land. We fought over the Danish Cartoons. He questions if it was ok that he was gay. All this in the name of his religion. There were aspects of his religion I admired: there were aspects of his religion I found disgusting. Through it all I dated him reguardless of the fact he was Muslim. Also, I had to go without sex during Ramadan  |
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Sep 16, 2009 9:03 PM GMT
phemt said I'll save that for the Catholics ( I am joking of course)
But little do you know the Spanish Inquisitors still exist and they're already after you!!....and NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! (Flying circus anyone???)  |
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Sep 16, 2009 9:25 PM GMT
And now for something completely different |
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Sep 21, 2009 9:23 PM GMT
dantoujours saidphemt saidAs Muslims make up higher numbers in places like Minnesota let's see what type laws those communites enact. If the community becomes more liberal and open I will gladly admit my fears were ungrounded. If, however, these areas press for stricter laws and become more intolerant will you admit that I was justified in my fears?
You know about the Muslim cab drives at the Minneapolis airport right?
LOL. What laws do you really think they are going to enact? And how do you think the courts will react?
You mean the same Minnesota that has the openly Muslim Congressman Keith Ellison (see: http://www.alternet.org/rights/69575/ ) who spoke out in favour of gay marriage in congress?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqqC1klDpbc
And are you saying that all Muslim cab drivers at Minneapolis airport do these things? And again, who cares? They lose the fare. The passenger moves on to the next cab.
You'll find fundamentalist Christians who refuse business to people they don't like too. Why should you care about Muslims and not them?
I watched and read the links your provided. I have to admit I was unaware of how liberal Ellison is and his support for gay-marriage. I knew of him but not a lot. I am glad he is in congress. I would even vote for him if I were able (I am in Illinois). I wonder though did you notice this part: "...On one hand, in light of their socially conservative mores -- last year's Pew Survey showed that American Muslims favor state interference in morality even more than Christian Evangelists -- they have leaned towards the Republican Party. On the other hand, in light of their liberal views on civil liberties, social justice and foreign policy, they tend to lean towards Democrats. The conundrum has caused a great deal of schizophrenic thinking in American Muslim political activism. In 2000, Muslims voted as a bloc for President Bush. In 2004, they swung to the other side, with 74 percent of their vote going towards Kerry." To repeat what I've posted before: "As Muslims make up higher numbers in places like Minnesota let's see what type laws those communites enact. If the community becomes more liberal and open I will gladly admit my fears were ungrounded. If, however, these areas press for stricter laws and become more intolerant will you admit that I was justified in my fears?" |
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Oct 01, 2009 3:05 AM GMT
[quote][cite]MotorBrett said ... Secondly, Indonesia, the largest Muslim population and fourth most populated nation in the world, has an 86.1% Muslim population. However, it is a Republic with an elected legislature and president, and exercises religious liberty as well. The Indonesian constitution states: "every person shall be free to choose and to practice the religion of his/her choice" and "guarantees all persons the freedom of worship, each according to his/her own religion or belief". Doesn't sound too disrespectful of church and state now, does it? ... [/quote] An Indonesian province recently passed laws allowing public lashings and possible prison sentance for homosexuality. Even sever punishment for adultery: possible stoning to death. The bases for these laws: Sharia. An ex bf of mine sought asylum from Indonesia (and he told me about others) to get alway from the Homophobia of his family/culture. If you think Indonesia is such a tolerant place I wonder if would you be willing to be openly guy there (outside of Bali of course)? http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2009/09/14/indonesian-province-introduces-severe-penalties-for-homosexuality/ |
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Oct 01, 2009 3:10 AM GMT
Even while that was going on in Indonesia moderate Muslims issued this: Moderate Muslim scholars said there were no reasons to reject homosexuals under Islam, and that the condemnation of homosexuals and homosexuality by mainstream ulema and many other Muslims was based on narrow-minded interpretations of Islamic teachings. Siti Musdah Mulia of the Indonesia Conference of Religions and Peace cited the Koran's al-Hujurat (49:3) that one of the blessings for human beings was that all men and women are equal, regardless of ethnicity, wealth, social positions or even sexual orientation. "There is no difference between lesbians and nonlesbians. In the eyes of God, people are valued based on their piety," she told the discussion organized by nongovernmental organization Arus Pelangi. "And talking about piety is God's prerogative to judge," she added. "The essence of the religion (Islam) is to humanize humans, respect and dignify them." Musdah said homosexuality was from God and should be considered natural, adding it was not pushed only by passion.
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2008/03/27/islam-039recognizes-homosexuality039.htmlAnd it's no surprise that Muslims may favour state intervention to a greater degree on moral matters. That is probably true for many immigrants from the Third World who are unacquainted with western notions of pluralism, tolerance and separation of religion and politics. By the second or third generation that changes quickly. |
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Oct 01, 2009 3:12 AM GMT
I would be scared to be a muslim in America...
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Oct 01, 2009 3:45 AM GMT
andrew44888 saidI would be scared to be a muslim in America... I would be more scared to be gay in several Muslim Countries. I don't know of any Muslims being killed because they are Muslim in America. |
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Oct 01, 2009 8:20 PM GMT
phemt saidandrew44888 saidI would be scared to be a muslim in America...
I would be more scared to be gay in several Muslim Countries. I don't know of any Muslims being killed because they are Muslim in America. I agree with you i would much rather be muslim in America than gay in a muslim country, but i still don't think muslims are treated well in the States and are judged badly (oviously not by everyone but by many) |
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Oct 01, 2009 9:00 PM GMT
Well, let's pat ourselves on the fucking back for being so tolerant.  Biggotry and hatred suck and should be condemed whereever it happens. And yes, it happens here in the good ol' USA all the time, and increasingly so with regard to muslims.So, I don't know what the point is to all this. Muslims and homosexuals are killed here for being who they are. Hurrah for our big hearts! |
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Oct 01, 2009 9:13 PM GMT
[quote][cite]phemt said[/cite]Rifqa Bary converted to Chritianity and due to fear of her Muslim family/community's reaction she felt the need to runaway. Radical Muslims feel justified killing such an apostate. It appears that her family belongs to such a racial Mosque. The link below has coverage from CBN's 700 club. I am not a big fan of the CBN/700 club, but the coverage seemed more extensive than other coverage I've watched. Also, the link has an address to those who may feel moved to help this girl. The story has also been covered by more mainstream networks like CNN, ABC, etc. Do an internet seach on story if you do not trust CBN/700 club coverage. This is American and we have Freedom of Religion. I am all for religious pluralism, but have to admit I am very concerned about the increasing Muslim population in the United States. Muslims (when they are the majority) seem to have little respect the Seperation of Church and State. I've heard that the Netherlands require Muslim immigrants to watch a video explaining how in the Netherlands things like smoking pot and homosexuality are accepted. The reason for this is that Muslim immmigrants tended to be very intolerant of those things in others. Back in the U.S at the Minneapolis Airport Muslim cab drivers wouldn't pick up people with alcohol or sight seeing dogs. Muslims are welcome to this country, but they need to understand that things like "honor killings", enforcing sharia laws, etc. WILL NOT BE TOLERATED. Really threatening to punish or even kill someone for converting to another religion! Chrisitians haven't justified such things since the inquisition, reformation, and witch burnings. http://rifqabary.comThis is so sad!!!!!! We have a former Muslim in our church body and he has to go by a fake name in order to protect his life. He doesn't even have his own residence and moves from place to place because otherwise he would be found and killed. |
