I bring this up because of a sexy guy with dark hair has, and every time time he does he is abused, and wrongly called a racist, in an attempt too silence him.
Last nigh I was watching a show that was in the west bank filming the conflict, and the settlers come out looking the worst, yet they try to put "all" the blame on the Arabs. When asked about the UN. they reply, we take no notice of them, as everone knows they side with the Arabs; oh please that is so fare from the truth.
They showed how settlers are taking land that does not belong to them, and building on it, even against international law, and refuse to see what they are doing is wrong, and when asked what will you do when they pull this settlement down? They rely, we will replace it wit six of them.
They have made travel almost imposible for the Arabs in their own homeland with check point after check point, were the settlers have freeways, that the Arabs are banned from using, and if found on it, they will be imprisoned. The settler have green gardens, because they take most of the water.
The setters claim the Arabs are the violent ones yet they responded with tear gas, and bullets. So now the Arabs are fight back with filming the violent activities of the settlers.
I admit the whole this is so sad, but I do now know, that the Arabs are not the ones solely at fault. Not the story I was to grow up with, via the media. It's taking a long time for the truth to start to come out.
Yeah I am not happy with the Israeli settlers in the West Bank. They can either live with the Palestinians side by side or get out. They need to stop stealing lands from them and abusing Palestinian Christians and Muslims, because they are not Jewish. Some Israelis I know like Israeli human rights from Israel agree that Israeli settlers need to get out of the West Bank. It was the Israeli government idea to build more Israeli settlements. Even the Palestinians homes was stolen and gave it to the Israeli settlers. Of course the roads are separated from the Palestinians because only Israeli can drive on it, while the Palestinian drive on the crappy road. This is apartheid.
In Bethlehem a Christian city. The road above is for Israeli settlers only and the curvy road below is for Palestinians.
One young women was asked about building on land that did not belong to them. She become aggressive straight away demanding how dare you come to my home (vacant lot) and tell me, how dare you. Then she said with her American accent, and were do you won't us to go, back to the concentration camp.
Oh please I doubt she even ever seen one. No she could go home to New York, or Florida, or Sydney, Melbourne, England.
Pattison_the_Great saidOne young women was asked about building on land that did not belong to them. She become aggressive straight away demanding how dare you come to my home (vacant lot) and tell me, how dare you. Then she said with her American accent, and were do you won't us to go, back to the concentration camp.
Oh please I doubt she even ever seen one. No she could go home to New York, or Florida, or Sydney, Melbourne, England.
lol... That's ridiculous. If an Israeli settler say that to me, I will tell her or him that Palestinians from Israel 1948 are now living in the refugee camp just like how Jews used to live in the concentration camp in Europe. Man, these Israeli settlers are full of hate.
If you look at 2:24 on YouTube video below. Israeli settler said, "I am the true Palestinian. You are not Palestinian." Funny how they say that, because in Israeli settlers' society, they believe Palestinians never exist. lol
Well sxydrkhair, I'm pleased this has not turned into a flame war, it seems all your hard work to educate the members of RJ that the Palestinians are not the terrorists as portrayed in the media. That they are people who are protesting about their country being sliced up, by anther country, and their homes and land taken away from them, and givern away That they are not the perpetrators, but the victims.
For every story of Palestinian suffering, there's an Israeli one and vice versa. Everyone's a victim in that ongoing conflict. I'm just not sure RJ is the right place to discuss this.
Sadly so much of the root of all this trouble come about before WW2 was declared. England being such a small island, had received something like 70 thousand Jewish people, and then after Hitler had come to power, and he was making life as difficult as he could for the Jewish people, by depriving them from driving using public transport, public parks, from telling people not to shop Jewish, and so on. England during this time was receiving up to 3 thousand Jewish refugees, a month, where no-one else was receiving this many, and the US of A had set such rigid immigrant intake numbers in the 1920s, and they did not change this to help out either, they stood by and did nothing.
So after the end of the war, England was struggling for many years, just to feed the people on it's Island. So to relive this struggle, they created a Jewish State, so they could offload many of their refugees. The trouble with this is, they needed land on foreign soil. So they took land that did not belong to them, and gave it away. When this backfired on them they could not offload it quick enough to the UN. But before they did this they were able to off load, rehouse many of their Jewish refugees to a foreign land, then wipe their hands of all the trouble that was to become of their actions.
Albeit so much of this trouble may never of come to pass, if other countries like the US of A, had of put out a helping hand to the Jewish people of Europe, instead of truing a blind eye, and not wanting to get involved.
The League of Nations established the Palestine Mandate after WW I (nearly a quarter century earlier than your error-filled narrative). The purpose of this mandate?
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/palmanda.asp || The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions
Recall that "self-determination" was the concept of that day. The former holdings of the Ottoman Empire were to be established as independent states. 99% of the mideast was to become Arab states, and "Palestine" (then the European name for Eretz Yisrael, the Jewish homeland) was to be the Jewish state.
Since there wasn't at that time (and never had been) an "Arab Palestine" or even a group of Arabs who called themselves "Palestinian", there was no irony that the League of Nations called this the "Palestine Mandate". Prior to 1948 (and moreso 1967), when people said "Palestine" they were talking about the Jewish homeland. Consider how the entry for "Palestine" begins in the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica:
|| a geographical name of rather loose application. Etymological strictness would require it to denote exclusively the narrow strip of coast-land once occupied by the Philistines, from whose name it is derived. It is, however, conventionally used as a name for the territory which, in the Old Testament, is claimed as the inheritance of the pre-exilic Hebrews; thus it may be said generally to denote the southern third of the province of Syria.
Indeed, the Arabs living in the region at that time denied that there was a place called "Palestine" or "Palestinians":
Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, told the Peel Commission (1936): || There is no such country! 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of SYRIA.
In 1946, speaking before the Anglo-American Committee, Arab-American historian Professor Philip Hitti (Princeton University) stated: || There is no such thing as 'Palestine' in history.
Far be it from me to interrupt the propaganda dog & pony show that is this topic, but these issues have already been discussed at great length. If you want to learn more about the history of the region, follow this link:
"Palestine" is the Latin/European name for Eretz Yisrael, the Jewish homeland - and Arab denials of the existence of "Palestine". http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/349491
Sadly we see that some are more interested in demonizing others in order to rationalize and justify their never-ending war against Israel. Maybe one day we'll see the ilk of Samer put in an iota of effort into advocating peace and coexistence instead. That is discussed in this topic:
In search of a solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict: UNSCR 242, Oslo and Camp David/Taba (Or: I support the Clinton COMPROMISE parameters. Do you?!) http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/354843
There are two main weaknesses in your argument: First, its factually wrong. (Did you literally just make all that crap up? or do you not understand the concept of research?) "Palestine" derives from the term "philistia", a federation along the Mediterranean Coast that arose around 1200 BCE. The area was conquered by the Assyrians in 722 BCE, and the Philistine ethnic identity was utterly destroyed by 600 BCE. However, that term or a similar one was used repeatedly by Greco-Roman writers when referring to the region. In 132 CE, Roman emporer Hadrian combined Philistia with the Galilee, calling it Syria Palaestina. In 390 CE, Palaestina was reorganized into three administrative units (literally, "First Palestine, Second Palestine, Third Palestine"). Starting with the Umayyad Dynasty in 661, Palaestina Prima was renamed Filastin (arabic for Palestine), which it retains to this day. This region extended from the Sinai, to Acre, to (diagonally) the Dead Sea . The area including present-day Amman and the Galilee was renamed Al Urdan (Jordan). During Ottoman rule, it was tradition to name provinces after capitals, not geographical regions, so it was officially designated under the regional headquarters as the province of Saida (Sidon, Lebanon) from 1660 to 1873, when it was reorganized and divided between the provinces of Beirut and Jerusalem. Despite is not being the name of a province, Palestine remained in widespread use, both by locals and in official correspondence, to refer to the geographic region from the river to the sea.
Therefore, it is clearly seen that the term Palestine has been consistently used for more than two millennia to refer to the current-day Israel. The fact that a Palestinian is willing to deny his heritage and history (likely under harassing possibility of imprisonment or violent attacks on him and his male family members..this is a common theme I have found among Israeli sympathizers) does not provide evidence of truth; in fact, it merely provides evidence of the lack thereof. Historical fact clearly shows the fact of Palestine's existence.
You are correct that there are no true Palestinian Arabs. And there is, nor was, an Arab Palestine. But thats not because of the "palestine" part, but the "arab" part. Modern Palestinians self-identify as ethnic descendants of Canaanites. Therefore, your point is trivially true and conveys no influential nor explanatory power.
Secondly, the absence of a Palestinian state (or even the theoretical absence of the region or its people) in history does not justify the state of Israel. Looking at history, we see that thousands of Jews illegally (the British mandate was effectively the only "national" legislation of the time) immigrated to the region in the 20s, 30s, and 40s. Hundreds of thousands of (what we now refer to as) Palestinians were forced from their homes by violence and threats of violence; most of them and their descendants have been living in destitution as a result. At the time of the ethnic cleansing, Jews represented only one-third of the population, yet they now retain control of 99% of the region. (The PA is such a pathetic joke that its not really worth mentioning. Plus, the IDF controls the military aspects of everything outside of Gaza; not to mention that Israel controls all of the resources of Gaza) Now, there is a theocratic Jewish state that has complete control of military and resources between the river and the sea. Regardless of affiliation, there were non-jews living in the region prior to Israel, who now cannot live a free and equal life as a non-jew. The creation and continuance of the state of Israel is an affront to the human dignity of all those who are not afforded the full rights and privileges that partially exist within those historical borders. oh...and finally JUSTICE FOR PALESTINE! END THE SIEGE OF GAZA!
They both need to do some major compromising and quit living in the past and look towards a more peaceful future. Both sides are being fools and this argument will probably continue until the end of time, or maybe it will be the cause of the end of time
IlliniXMarine> its factually wrong. (Did you literally just make all that crap up? or do you not understand the concept of research?)
Wow, you open up with such immature personal attacks and you expect that anyone will take you seriously?
Indeed, you don’t point out anything that is factually incorrect.
Of course, your non-argument is even more disingenuous considering that I provided just a summary with a link to another topic where all this was already discussed in greater detail – and with a multitude of references to academic sources.
No wonder you opted to post your hack job here. Unlike you, I will respond point-by-point to your misconceptions and errors in the original topic.
"Palestine" is the Latin/European name for Eretz Yisrael, the Jewish homeland - and Arab denials of the existence of "Palestine". http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/349491
TucsonGradJock> They both need to do some major compromising and quit living in the past and look towards a more peaceful future. Both sides are being fools....
Correct on the first part, but the latter is a false equivalence.
In 1937, the Jewish Agency accepted the principle of compromise based on partition suggested by the Peel Commission. The Arabs rejected it.
In 1947, the Jewish Agency accepted the UN partition compromise (UNGAR 181). The Arab parties violently rejected it, resorting to war.
In 1949, after the war, Israel was willing to accept peace based on UNGAR 194. The Arab League rejected that, issuing its infamous "3 NOs": No negotiations, No recognition of Israel, No peace (under any conditions).
After continued Arab aggression led to another war in 1956, Israel unilaterally withdrew from the additional territories it captured, hoping that would spark a peace dialog. The Arab League repeated the "3 NOs".
After continued Arab aggression led to another war in 1967, the UN Security Council passed Resolution 242 which introduced the "land for peace" formula. Israel accepted it and, you guessed it, the Arab League reissued their "3 NOs".
After another failed Arab war seeking Israel's destruction in 1973, Egyptian President Nasser concluded that war is not the answer. He found a ready and willing peace partner in Israel (then under perhaps it's most right-wing/hawkish government ever). Alas, no other Arab party accepted President Carter's invitation to come to Camp David. For making peace with Israel, Egypt (the largest Arab country) was expelled from the Arab League and Sadat was assassinated.
Nearly a quarter of a century later, Arafat walked out of Camp David and then rejected the Clinton compromise parameters at Taba (telling President Clinton "I invite you to my funeral", meaning that if he accepted he would be assassinated, like Sadat). Arafat made no counter-offer because he himself was not ready to end the conflict without first destroying Israel.
More on that in this topic: In search of a solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict: UNSCR 242, Oslo and Camp David/Taba (Or: I support the Clinton COMPROMISE parameters. Do you?!) http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/354843
There you'll see how the real world is mirrored here on RJ by myself and Samer, with me supporting the Clinton compromise and him rejecting it out of hand and unable to tell us anything on which he is willing to compromise, not even for peace.
IlliniXMarine saidThere are two main weaknesses in your argument: First, its factually wrong. (Did you literally just make all that crap up? or do you not understand the concept of research?) "Palestine" derives from the term "philistia", a federation along the Mediterranean Coast that arose around 1200 BCE. The area was conquered by the Assyrians in 722 BCE, and the Philistine ethnic identity was utterly destroyed by 600 BCE. However, that term or a similar one was used repeatedly by Greco-Roman writers when referring to the region. In 132 CE, Roman emporer Hadrian combined Philistia with the Galilee, calling it Syria Palaestina. In 390 CE, Palaestina was reorganized into three administrative units (literally, "First Palestine, Second Palestine, Third Palestine"). Starting with the Umayyad Dynasty in 661, Palaestina Prima was renamed Filastin (arabic for Palestine), which it retains to this day. This region extended from the Sinai, to Acre, to (diagonally) the Dead Sea . The area including present-day Amman and the Galilee was renamed Al Urdan (Jordan). During Ottoman rule, it was tradition to name provinces after capitals, not geographical regions, so it was officially designated under the regional headquarters as the province of Saida (Sidon, Lebanon) from 1660 to 1873, when it was reorganized and divided between the provinces of Beirut and Jerusalem. Despite is not being the name of a province, Palestine remained in widespread use, both by locals and in official correspondence, to refer to the geographic region from the river to the sea.
Therefore, it is clearly seen that the term Palestine has been consistently used for more than two millennia to refer to the current-day Israel. The fact that a Palestinian is willing to deny his heritage and history (likely under harassing possibility of imprisonment or violent attacks on him and his male family members..this is a common theme I have found among Israeli sympathizers) does not provide evidence of truth; in fact, it merely provides evidence of the lack thereof. Historical fact clearly shows the fact of Palestine's existence.
You are correct that there are no true Palestinian Arabs. And there is, nor was, an Arab Palestine. But thats not because of the "palestine" part, but the "arab" part. Modern Palestinians self-identify as ethnic descendants of Canaanites. Therefore, your point is trivially true and conveys no influential nor explanatory power.
Secondly, the absence of a Palestinian state (or even the theoretical absence of the region or its people) in history does not justify the state of Israel. Looking at history, we see that thousands of Jews illegally (the British mandate was effectively the only "national" legislation of the time) immigrated to the region in the 20s, 30s, and 40s. Hundreds of thousands of (what we now refer to as) Palestinians were forced from their homes by violence and threats of violence; most of them and their descendants have been living in destitution as a result. At the time of the ethnic cleansing, Jews represented only one-third of the population, yet they now retain control of 99% of the region. (The PA is such a pathetic joke that its not really worth mentioning. Plus, the IDF controls the military aspects of everything outside of Gaza; not to mention that Israel controls all of the resources of Gaza) Now, there is a theocratic Jewish state that has complete control of military and resources between the river and the sea. Regardless of affiliation, there were non-jews living in the region prior to Israel, who now cannot live a free and equal life as a non-jew. The creation and continuance of the state of Israel is an affront to the human dignity of all those who are not afforded the full rights and privileges that partially exist within those historical borders. oh...and finally JUSTICE FOR PALESTINE! END THE SIEGE OF GAZA!
As far as I am concerned both sides use a lot of propaganda to get people to think a certain way about the other side, just fanning the flames of an issue that goes back hundreds of years so it will never be 100% solved until one side completely destroys the other
Its sad how Samer still can't tell us on what, if anything, he's willing to compromise on for peace, opting instead for never-ending war until victory (even as he whines that he is the victim):
meh... i think of this whole situation like this....
My grandfather had thousands of acres of land in mexico growing up. his family lost it all durring some revolution (cant remember when or where as my grandfather was born in 1901 and no longer alive for me to ask him). They came in and took from the rich. they had two choices: stay and die or flee. Now... here we are say over a century later... if I took a small regiment with me and tried to take back that land for my family... i'd be shot on the spot for even trying.
everything i have learned and read about how isreal was created and what not just kind of leaves me with more or less the same situation above only they actually succeded in taking back the land. What made it right then but crazy now? Personally I dont think isreal has a right to exist.. i see it as stolen land (no offense to anyone just giving my rather humble opinion). being as the way thing are.. a neutral force needs to come in that whole mess and control everything... isreal, palestine, everything... I think thats the only way there could possibly ever be any kind of peace. (if anyone plays world of warcraft think Satthrah City)
At the same time... Im a faithful Roman Catholic. I love and beleive in Jesus Christ. i think if he couldnt even make peace there... WTF kind of chance we EVER think we have at doing it?
Caesarea4 saidTucsonGradJock> They both need to do some major compromising and quit living in the past and look towards a more peaceful future. Both sides are being fools....
Correct on the first part, but the latter is a false equivalence.
With all due respect, mate, you and sxydrkhair may think both sides aren't being fools, but I can pretty much guarantee you that the rest of the world watching your endless, bordering on insane, bickering sees it differently. I have little doubt that what is going on right here at RJ between you two mirrors what is going on over there in the real world. It's pathetic and so ridiculous that after all these years you cannot come to a compromise for the sake of your people. Neither side will get everything they want, but at least they will get peace.
Caesarea4 saidTucsonGradJock> They both need to do some major compromising and quit living in the past and look towards a more peaceful future. Both sides are being fools....
Correct on the first part, but the latter is a false equivalence.
With all due respect, mate, you and sxydrkhair may think both sides aren't being fools, but I can pretty much guarantee you that the rest of the world watching your endless, bordering on insane, bickering sees it differently. I have little doubt that what is going on right here at RJ between you two mirrors what is going on over there in the real world. It's pathetic and so ridiculous that after all these years you cannot come to a compromise for the sake of your people. Neither side will get everything they want, but at least they will get peace.
Hear hear!
It is tiresome, bordering on being extremely so now.
TucsonGradJock> They both need to do some major compromising and quit living in the past and look towards a more peaceful future. Both sides are being fools....
Caesarea4> Correct on the first part, but the latter is a false equivalence. ...The real world is mirrored here on RJ by myself and Samer, with me supporting the Clinton compromise and him rejecting it out of hand and unable to tell us anything on which he is willing to compromise, not even for peace.
TGJ> I have little doubt that what is going on right here at RJ between you two mirrors what is going on over there in the real world. It's pathetic and so ridiculous that after all these years you cannot come to a compromise for the sake of your people. Neither side will get everything they want, but at least they will get peace.
Do you think that repeating your false equivalence will make it true?
I just detailed for you how Israel and the Jewish Agency were open to compromise in 1937, 1947, 1949, 1956 and 1967... only to have it categorically rejected by the Arab parties who instead opted for violence, terrorism and war. Why did you ignore this? How good can your model be when it fails to consider 70+ years of history as well as current events?
When one Arab party (Sadat) finally came around, Israel (despite then being ruled by perhaps its most hawkish government ever) was there to make peace with him (Egypt was then expelled from the Arab League and Sadat assassinated). It took a few more decades for Arafat and the PLO to come around (and that had more to do with his weakened position after supporting Saddam in 1990 than a real desire for compromise or peace). At Camp David, as one Russian journalist put it, Barak "unmasked" Arafat by agreeing to the Clinton compromise parameters only to have Arafat walk out - without a counter-offer.
At Camp David and later at Taba, there were (according to an Arab newspaper) some 28 proposals made by the Americans and the Israelis for shared sovereignty of the Temple Mount area. Arafat said no to all, demanding total control over all of it - including the Wailing Wall area, refusing to compromise on anything (his top aid literally said: "why not 100%"?.
I, like most Israelis, remain open and committed to compromise and peaceful coexistence. Samer, like most Palestinian Arabs, rejects compromise and prefers endless war to destroy Israel (even as he pretends to be the victim).
Don't take my word for it, see what each of us said (and didn't say) here:
Ryan_Andrew> I dont think isreal has a right to exist.. i see it as stolen land
You think Arab Palestine (which has never existed in history) has a right to exist because Arab empires invaded, conquered and colonized the Jewish homeland, occupying it from 638-1071 CE, but that Jews didn't have the right to PURCHASE back that land and Israel doesn't have a right to exist - despite Jews living on this land, CONTINUOUSLY, for over 3300 years and being the only nation to ever independently self-govern there?
Here's a couple quotes for you to consider from the 1936 Peel Commission Report:
|| The Arab population shows a remarkable increase since 1920, and it has had some share in the increased prosperity of Palestine. Many Arab landowners have benefited from the SALE of land and the profitable investment of the purchase money. The fellaheen are better off on the whole than they were in 1920. This Arab progress has been partly due to the import of Jewish capital into Palestine and other factors associated with the growth of the National Home. In particular, the Arabs have benefited from social services which could not have been provided on the existing scale without the revenue obtained from the Jews.
|| The shortage of land is due less to PURCHASE by Jews than to the increase in the Arab population. The Arab claims that the Jews have obtained too large a proportion of good land cannot be maintained. Much of the land now carrying orange groves was sand dunes or swamps and uncultivated when it was BOUGHT.
Consider that the Arabs weren't being displaced by Jews so much as by other Arabs. Indeed, the Arab population grew most precisely in the areas of British and Jewish development. In Haifa (new port and industry), between the world wars the Arab population grew by 290%. In Jaffa (adjacent to Tel Aviv) by 158%. In Jerusalem (where Jews had pioneered development outside the old city walls) 131%. Yet in Nablus (currently the largest city in what previously was Trans/Jordan's so-called "West Bank") the Arab population over that same period grew by only 42%. In Bethlehem, 38%. In Jenin (closer to Jewish areas, which is why it recently gained infamy as the departure point of suicide bombers) "only" 78%.
If you could buy back your grandfather's land, would you consider that you "stole" it? Or do you think that those who forcefully took it from him, with no remuneration, are those who stole it?
Yes both sides are at fault and both Palestianians and the Israeli's have the right to live in paece but when you have people having to go through checkpoints to go to work to have to show identification just to go to the store not being able to govern themselves'
You gonna have a shitload of trouble that's going to come back at you
Caesarea4 saidRyan_Andrew> I dont think isreal has a right to exist.. i see it as stolen land
You think Arab Palestine (which has never existed in history) has a right to exist because Arab empires invaded, conquered and colonized the Jewish homeland, occupying it from 638-1071 CE, but that Jews didn't have the right to PURCHASE back that land and Israel doesn't have a right to exist - despite Jews living on this land, CONTINUOUSLY, for over 3300 years and being the only nation to ever independently self-govern there?
Here's a couple quotes for you to consider from the 1936 Peel Commission Report:
|| The Arab population shows a remarkable increase since 1920, and it has had some share in the increased prosperity of Palestine. Many Arab landowners have benefited from the SALE of land and the profitable investment of the purchase money. The fellaheen are better off on the whole than they were in 1920. This Arab progress has been partly due to the import of Jewish capital into Palestine and other factors associated with the growth of the National Home. In particular, the Arabs have benefited from social services which could not have been provided on the existing scale without the revenue obtained from the Jews.
|| The shortage of land is due less to PURCHASE by Jews than to the increase in the Arab population. The Arab claims that the Jews have obtained too large a proportion of good land cannot be maintained. Much of the land now carrying orange groves was sand dunes or swamps and uncultivated when it was BOUGHT.
Consider that the Arabs weren't being displaced by Jews so much as by other Arabs. Indeed, the Arab population grew most precisely in the areas of British and Jewish development. In Haifa (new port and industry), between the world wars the Arab population grew by 290%. In Jaffa (adjacent to Tel Aviv) by 158%. In Jerusalem (where Jews had pioneered development outside the old city walls) 131%. Yet in Nablus (currently the largest city in what previously was Trans/Jordan's so-called "West Bank") the Arab population over that same period grew by only 42%. In Bethlehem, 38%. In Jenin (closer to Jewish areas, which is why it recently gained infamy as the departure point of suicide bombers) "only" 78%.
If you could buy back your grandfather's land, would you consider that you "stole" it? Or do you think that those who forcefully took it from him, with no remuneration, are those who stole it?
It really doesnt matter if they have been living there that entire time fact is it was broke up by ceaser back in the day and so what if they still lived there? that still does not make it right to just come and upppity take arms and be like SCREW THIS we are taking it back? no... If Harry Truman hadn;t be lobbied by his best friend whom happened to be jewish.. isreal would never have been recignized and we woudlnt be having this conversation. Either way, like someone said.. both sides are screwed up. that whole part of the world needs to be done away with already and put under the strict control of a neutral party. I could honestly careless what happens over there so long as Ameriacn troops are not over there and american weapons are not being used because sooner or later that mess makes it way back here. If isreal wants to be all big and bad ass then do so alone. Might be harsh and again no offense but i could careless if that whole part of the world nuked itself. the way it looks... pretty much heading that way. better over there than here.
You can say that both sides are wrong. Palestinian government is corrupted that is control by Israeli government. Palestine is not even a country yet. So how can Palestinians govern themselves, when they are under the Israeli illegal occupation and brutal apartheid?
It isn't the kind of history Israelis like to talk about, or admit that Israel or Mossad helped create Hamas. In the late 1980s, Israel supported nascent Hamas in order to weaken Fatah, the secular nationalist movement led by Yasser Arafat. "Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation," says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades.
Caesarea4 saidRyan_Andrew> I dont think isreal has a right to exist.. i see it as stolen land
You think Arab Palestine (which has never existed in history) has a right to exist because Arab empires invaded, conquered and colonized the Jewish homeland, occupying it from 638-1071 CE, but that Jews didn't have the right to PURCHASE back that land and Israel doesn't have a right to exist - despite Jews living on this land, CONTINUOUSLY, for over 3300 years and being the only nation to ever independently self-govern there?
Here's a couple quotes for you to consider from the 1936 Peel Commission Report:
|| The Arab population shows a remarkable increase since 1920, and it has had some share in the increased prosperity of Palestine. Many Arab landowners have benefited from the SALE of land and the profitable investment of the purchase money. The fellaheen are better off on the whole than they were in 1920. This Arab progress has been partly due to the import of Jewish capital into Palestine and other factors associated with the growth of the National Home. In particular, the Arabs have benefited from social services which could not have been provided on the existing scale without the revenue obtained from the Jews.
|| The shortage of land is due less to PURCHASE by Jews than to the increase in the Arab population. The Arab claims that the Jews have obtained too large a proportion of good land cannot be maintained. Much of the land now carrying orange groves was sand dunes or swamps and uncultivated when it was BOUGHT.
Consider that the Arabs weren't being displaced by Jews so much as by other Arabs. Indeed, the Arab population grew most precisely in the areas of British and Jewish development. In Haifa (new port and industry), between the world wars the Arab population grew by 290%. In Jaffa (adjacent to Tel Aviv) by 158%. In Jerusalem (where Jews had pioneered development outside the old city walls) 131%. Yet in Nablus (currently the largest city in what previously was Trans/Jordan's so-called "West Bank") the Arab population over that same period grew by only 42%. In Bethlehem, 38%. In Jenin (closer to Jewish areas, which is why it recently gained infamy as the departure point of suicide bombers) "only" 78%.
If you could buy back your grandfather's land, would you consider that you "stole" it? Or do you think that those who forcefully took it from him, with no remuneration, are those who stole it?
It really doesnt matter if they have been living there that entire time fact is it was broke up by ceaser back in the day and so what if they still lived there? that still does not make it right to just come and upppity take arms and be like SCREW THIS we are taking it back? no... If Harry Truman hadn;t be lobbied by his best friend whom happened to be jewish.. isreal would never have been recignized and we woudlnt be having this conversation. Either way, like someone said.. both sides are screwed up. that whole part of the world needs to be done away with already and put under the strict control of a neutral party. I could honestly careless what happens over there so long as Ameriacn troops are not over there and american weapons are not being used because sooner or later that mess makes it way back here. If isreal wants to be all big and bad ass then do so alone. Might be harsh and again no offense but i could careless if that whole part of the world nuked itself. the way it looks... pretty much heading that way. better over there than here.
I don't know where Caesarea4 get his number from. Zionists did brought some of the Palestinian lands, when they immigrated to Palestine. They only owned around 7% of Palestine, while about 93% of historic Palestine was owned by present day Palestinians under the British Mandate. 80% of the Palestinian people were DISPOSSESSED of their homes, farms, and businesses. That has been the Zionist's goal when they first settled in Palestine. Since 1948, Israeli government still continuing ethnic cleansing in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Oh and the Israeli weapons are American-made weapons. I think our American government need to end aid to Israel or any other countries including Palestinians.
Ownership of land in Palestine, Share of Palestinian Arabs and Jews as of April 1st, 1943
According to the "A Survey of Palestine" prepared by the British Mandate for the UN, p. 566.
sxydrkhair> They only owned around 7% of Palestine, while about 93% of historical Palestine was owned by present day Palestinians
FAIL. Given that the vast majority of the land was not privately owned, we don't even need to go through the numbers in the great detail as I did previously. While it's true that Jews only privately owned 8.6% of the land, the fact of the matter is that only 3.3% of the land was privately owned by resident Arabs.
To see how artificial and manufactured Samer's figures are, one need only consider that the Negev desert accounted for some 80% of the territory allocated to Israel by the 1947 UN partition compromise (and that this land was not privately owned).
For those with mathematical capacity: The area allocated to Israel by the UN was 14.92 million dunams. Samer himself admits that by 1947 Jews owned 7% of the 26.3 million dunams of western Mandate Palestine, which is 1.84 million dunams. The Negev desert is 12.5 million dunams. Combined these account for 14.34 out of the 14.92 million dunams. Samer would have us believe that Arabs owned 93% of the land? Yet only 3.9% remains unaccounted for (14.34/14.92 = 96.1%). If we accept my figure of 3.3% Arab [private] ownership, that gives us a total of 99.4% (OK, I'll admit it, I've got a 0.6% error in my figures, which obviously have some rounding issues. Samer, though, is so far off - 90% - that it's not even funny and yet it's hard not to laugh - especially since he keeps spamming these outrageous figures).
sxydrkhair> Since 1948, Israeli government still continuing ethnic cleansing in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
Complete nonsense given that Israel didn't even hold these territories from 1948-1967 and given that the population has skyrocketed oer the last 42 years.
What is true is that Judea, Samaria and Gaza were completely ethnically cleansed of Jews by invading Arab armies in 1948. Not a single one remained, not even in the Jewish quarter of Jerusalem. That's what ethnic cleansing is. Sadly for Samer its only use is as a slogan, a sound-bite, to demonize Israel (in order to rationalize and justify not ending the war to destroy it).
Samer's tedious and repetitive BS continues:
sxydrkhair> the Israeli illegal occupation and brutal apartheid?
The Israeli administration is legal, effectively authorized by UNSCR 242 (which is legally binding). It established the "land for peace" formula and calls on peace to be negotiated and then for Israel to withdraw to the borders to be agreed upon. (It does not require an immediate, unconditional or even full Israeli withdrawal - all of which would be true had Israel illegally seized these territories rather than take control of them in a defensive war).
Once again what we see is that Samer can't really make an argument beyond superficial sloganeering and spamming sound-bites.
sxydrkhair> Israel or Mossad helped create Hamas. In the late 1980s....
This lie has also been discussed at great length in other topics. Samer previously claimed that Israel established Hamas in the 1970s (it wasn't founded until 1987). From Samer's lie, a person unfamiliar with the facts would assume that Israel established and armed Hamas much as the US did the Mujahadeen. Nothing could be further from the truth which is that Israel allowed Hamas, then a charity engaged in social welfare rather than terrorism, to collect money abroad and build mosques. (You'd think Samer would applaud this rather than twist it to demonize Israel, but....)
You think Arab Palestine (which has never existed in history) has a right to exist because Arab empires invaded, conquered and colonized the Jewish homeland, occupying it from 638-1071 CE, but that Jews didn't have the right to PURCHASE back that land and Israel doesn't have a right to exist - despite Jews living on this land, CONTINUOUSLY, for over 3300 years and being the only nation to ever independently self-govern there?
Ryan_Andrew> so what if they still lived there? that still does not make it right to just come and upppity take arms and be like SCREW THIS we are taking it back?
What part of "sale", "purchase" and "bought" (the words used to describe Jewish land acquisitions by the 1936 Peel Commission) didn't you understand?!
Jews did NOT "take arms" to take land. That's what the Arabs did. Both in 638 and in 1948. (And they keep on trying.)
So Jews lived there, Arabs invaded and conquered, and you are asking what does it matter that Jews lived there? (Does it similarly not matter that your grandfather lived on his land?)
The mind boggles. Arabs invade, conquer, occupy and colonize the Jewish homeland and you say nothing, but you pipe up about Jews BUYING back their own land?
GQJock> both Palestianians and the Israeli's have the right to live in paece
Who prevented peace in 1947? 1949? 1956? 1967? 1973? ...2000?
GQJock> when you have people having to go through checkpoints to go to work... You gonna have a shitload of trouble that's going to come back at you
You are saying that airport security is what causes hijackings and planes being blown up? Or perhaps you reversed cause and effect?
Checkpionts came as a result of Arab terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians.
GQJock> to have to show identification just to go to the store
Simply not true. At the time the intifadah began in 2000, there were no Israeli soldiers or checkpoints in the area where 98% of the Arab population lived. They were completely under PA security control. So if they had to show ID to go to the store, you should complain about Arafat, Abbas or Hamas.
GQJock> not being able to govern themselves'
This is a long-standing problem. During the Mandate period, rather than learn to govern they were more interested in murdering Jews (e.g. massacres in 1920-21, 1929 and 1936-1939).
Granted a state in 1948 on nearly half of the 20% of historic Palestine that was granted to Jews after WW I, they chose to go to war to destroy Israel.
You'd think that during the Egyptian and Jordanian "occupations", from 1948-1967, PLO terrorism would have been directed at Egypt and Jordan. (It was directed at Israel. So much for the idiotic line that "it's the occupation, stupid").
The root of self-government came after 1967, under the Israeli administration, which allowed elections. After Oslo, the PA became the largest per capita recipient of international aid - and still it couldn't govern, plagued by corruption and cronyism, etc. For 7 years development aid (including from Israel) poured in. There were joint efforts to create jobs (e.g. the Erez Industrial Center).
That all went down the tubes when Arafat, after walking out of Camp David (having rejected the paradigm of compromise) re-turned to his old friends of violence and terrorism. Hamas took it to the next level, even attacking places like the Erez Industrial Center.
GQJock, you remind me of the line by an Al Jazeera editor in "Control Room", who pointed out that when a sewer backs up in Damascus... they blame Israel. You're a bright guy, why do you treat this subject in such a shallow way?
Caesarea4 saidYou think Arab Palestine (which has never existed in history) has a right to exist because Arab empires invaded, conquered and colonized the Jewish homeland, occupying it from 638-1071 CE, but that Jews didn't have the right to PURCHASE back that land and Israel doesn't have a right to exist - despite Jews living on this land, CONTINUOUSLY, for over 3300 years and being the only nation to ever independently self-govern there?
Ryan_Andrew> so what if they still lived there? that still does not make it right to just come and upppity take arms and be like SCREW THIS we are taking it back?
What part of "sale", "purchase" and "bought" (the words used to describe Jewish land acquisitions by the 1936 Peel Commission) didn't you understand?!
Jews did NOT "take arms" to take land. That's what the Arabs did. Both in 638 and in 1948. (And they keep on trying.)
So Jews lived there, Arabs invaded and conquered, and you are asking what does it matter that Jews lived there? (Does it similarly not matter that your grandfather lived on his land?)
The mind boggles. Arabs invade, conquer, occupy and colonize the Jewish homeland and you say nothing, but you pipe up about Jews BUYING back their own land?
I think SxyDrkHair Said it best.... its bullshit for you to say they BOUGHT the land: "They only owned around 7% of Palestine, while about 93% of historic Palestine was owned by present day Palestinians under the British Mandate. 80% of the Palestinian people were DISPOSSESSED of their homes, farms, and businesses." The difference between my grandfathers situation and any jewish situation is that they had owned they land since the time mexcio was conlinized by Spain which is a very long fucking time. And they had no choice... they just came with force and ran them off their land... and they were not paid anything for it. You said that isreal dosent take part in ethnic cleansing but thats also a crock of shit. Im sure you/we all remember when all thoes bombing were happening in isreal and the israeli government invaded palistinian lands to go in and get the accused terrorist and the leaders of organizations like hamas with full force. They went in to a refugee camp where people were there just trying to get away from all the military action and ended up right in the middle of it by force. In fact because of this very action the UN security council met and was supposed to luanch a full investigation as to why the hell it happened. I never heard anything after that about this incident. I used to actually back and support isreal until I started getting in to the history of it all.... than the picture is not so in Isreal's favor. I agree with SxyDrkHair this also that yeah... isreal shouldnt have american weapons. I wish we could take them all back. Oh well... all I know is pray that I never or anyone else I know ever wins any major office cause I/we would certinaly end all ties with isreal. Let them deal with their own problem that whole neck of the woods needs to just nuke each other and be done with it and it is sad that alot of innoccent people would be and continue to be affected by this BS.
Ryan_Andrew> its bullshit for you to say they BOUGHT the land
Except that I'm not the one who said so, the Peel Commission - which came to investigate Arab complaints, said so. Again:
|| The shortage of land is due less to PURCHASE by Jews than to the increase in the Arab population. The Arab claims that the Jews have obtained too large a proportion of good land cannot be maintained. Much of the land now carrying orange groves was sand dunes or swamps and uncultivated when it was BOUGHT.
RA> "They only owned around 7% of Palestine, while about 93% of historic Palestine was owned by present day Palestinians under the British Mandate."
Samer is lying through his teeth and he knows it. Previously, in addition to the chart above, he also provided another one showing that the majority of the land was not privately owned - his own sources contradicted each other (which happens often as there is no internal consistency to what he says; if I say that 2+3=5 he'll simultaneously argue that 2+3=4 and that 2+3=6 - just so long as he can try cast doubt or fool someone into believing that 5 is wrong.)
Samer's lie is as invalid as me claiming that any land in Mexico not owned by your grandfather must have been owned by me, as if there is no other option for ownership. It is complete "bullshit", and I've already provided the correct numbers (within a fraction of a percent):
The area allocated to Israel by the UN was 14.92 million dunams. Samer himself admits that by 1947 Jews owned 7% of the 26.3 million dunams of western Mandate Palestine, which is 1.84 million dunams. The Negev desert is 12.5 million dunams. Combined these account for 14.34 out of the 14.92 million dunams. Samer would have us believe that Arabs owned 93% of the land? Yet only 3.9% remains unaccounted for (14.34/14.92 = 96.1%). If we accept my figure of 3.3% Arab [private] ownership, that gives us a total of 99.4% (OK, I'll admit it, I've got a 0.6% error in my figures, which obviously have some rounding issues. Samer, though, is so far off - 90% - that it's not even funny and yet it's hard not to laugh - especially since he keeps spamming these outrageous figures).
RA> "80% of the Palestinian people were DISPOSSESSED of their homes, farms, and businesses."
Again, quoting the Peel Commission:
Peel Commission> The shortage of land is due less to PURCHASE by Jews than to the increase in the Arab population
The discussion then centered on "shortage of land", not "dispossession" because an earlier inquiry led by Louis French had already established that no such thing had happened.
Once again Samer is lying by playing fast and loose with the timeline. What he refers to is the Arab flight due to the Arab war in 1948. (No Arab war, no Arab refugees - or Jewish ones, either.)
RA> The difference between my grandfathers situation and any jewish situation is that they had owned they land since the time mexcio was conlinized by Spain
LOL. Jews have purchased and owned land in Israel not only since before Spain colonized the new world, but since before Spain came to be.
Speaking of Spain, do you even know that Spain was conquered and occupied by Arab invaders for longer - and more recently - than Israel was? Aside from a frew brief incursions, the foreign Arab dynasties (empires) were repelled from Eretz Yisrael in 1071. They remained in Spain through 1491.
The Spanish reconquered their land. Do you also accuse them of "stealing" it?
RA> You said that isreal dosent take part in ethnic cleansing but thats also a crock of shit. Im sure you/we all remember when all thoes bombing were happening in isreal and the israeli government invaded palistinian lands to go in and get the accused terrorist and the leaders of organizations like hamas with full force.
So you don't know the meaning of ethnic cleansing? An invasion (even as you falsely describe) is not "ethnic cleansing". Are you saying that US forces in Falujah and Afghanistan are guilty of "ethnic cleansing"?
Here's a real example of ethnic cleansing. In 1948 the Arab Legion (British armed, trained and led) attacked Israel and seized Judea & Samaria. All Jews living in this region who didn't flee were killed. They also took over all of eastern Jerusalem, destroying 58 synagogues as they got rid of the Jews (thus was born so-called "Arab East Jerusalem" and the "West Bank" - that's the part of eastern/Trans-Jordanian Palestine, Palestine east of the Jordan River, that was west of the river).
RA> I used to actually back and support isreal until I started getting in to the history of it all
That's odd given that you still don't seem to know much about the conflict (only repeating Samer's sound-bites and slogans which at best contribute more heat than light and are intended to mislead rather than inform) and frankly rather than learning you seem to want to disregard data (e.g. the Peel Commission) and invent "facts" based on your mistaken notions.
It's further odd given that the better educated someone is about the conflict, the more likely they are to support Israel.
RA> it is sad that alot of innoccent people would be and continue to be affected by this BS.
Still you prefer to selectively and one-sidedly demonize Israel, which betrays that you don't really care to end the conflict. Indeed, despite this topic being pointed out, you don't care to talk about making peace (and ignore that while I and most Israelis favor compromise and peaceful coexistence, Samer and most Palestinian Arabs do not).
Like I said I don't care. all I have to say if isreal thinks of going over and blowing the shit out of Iran... as they most likely will do... they stand alone and if a nuke ends up their ass... NOT OUR PROBLEM! Flat.... fuck it!
Ryan_Andrew> Like I said I don't care. all I have to say if isreal thinks of going over and blowing the shit out of Iran... as they most likely will do... they stand alone and if a nuke ends up their ass... NOT OUR PROBLEM! Flat.... fuck it!
Not only are you as unpleasant as you are not erudite, but we weren't talking about Iran (I wonder what you would think if the missile Iran tested earlier this week had the range to reach the US rather than just Europe). I also wonder what you think about Israel taking out Iraq's nuclear program nearly 30 years ago - and what would have happened if Saddam had nukes when he seized Kuwait in 1990.
What is more perturbing, regarding the discussion here, is that you evidently won't let the facts get in the way of your prejudices and biases. The sad and shameful reality is that - as you said - you "don't care" about the facts, you just want to be selective and one-sided in your criticism of Israel for the sake of criticizing Israel.
Caesarea4 saidRyan_Andrew> Like I said I don't care. all I have to say if isreal thinks of going over and blowing the shit out of Iran... as they most likely will do... they stand alone and if a nuke ends up their ass... NOT OUR PROBLEM! Flat.... fuck it!
Not only are you as unpleasant as you are not erudite, but we weren't talking about Iran (I wonder what you would think if the missile Iran tested earlier this week had the range to reach the US rather than just Europe). I also wonder what you think about Israel taking out Iraq's nuclear program nearly 30 years ago - and what would have happened if Saddam had nukes when he seized Kuwait in 1990.
What is more perturbing, regarding the discussion here, is that you evidently won't let the facts get in the way of your prejudices and biases. The sad and shameful reality is that - as you said - you "don't care" about the facts, you just want to be selective and one-sided in your criticism of Israel for the sake of criticizing Israel.
Look, Bro. I had the love of my life killed on 9-11-01 while going to work in the WTC to try have money to support me once I graduated high school and went on to college and be able to pay for all that and support me once I came out to my parents because he and I worried I would be cut off once I came out to them. when you ask what I would think and feel, I would think and feel that same way I did on that day for all thoes people and their families. Fact is Isreals problems are not Americas problems and everytime we stick our neck out for them we end up paying the price 10x over. Screw that. Im tired of having to clean up a mess brought over to us because of us allying ourselves with other countries. Im tired of us being critized and attacked while we continue to aid and feed thoes abroad when we have people here at home that are in just the same place and IMHO are more worthy and deserving of that aid as they are AMERICANS. If isreal wants to have a war, or any other country for that matter... thats your shit. You deal with it. You clean your own shit. Keep us the fuck out of it. I didnt think it was right to get involved in Kuwait, I dont think we should be inSaudi Araba. I think its time we pull our troops home and give the world a big FUCK YOU! You clean your own shit. You take care of yourselves. You shitheads cant make peace with each other. Youre fighting over old bogus things that happened long before you had a reason to be offended. I think Balian in the movie "Kingdom of Heaven" says it best. You shitheads need to just get over it already... both sides that is.
One more thing... DRILL BABY DRILL AT HOME... MAKE MORE REFINERIES HERE AT HOME..... and look to alternative means of energy. Sadly, it should have happened already but Americans are to fucking lazy and dont have enough of a reason to change their ways and uses of energy. If put between a rock and a hard place... you better believe it we would already have the flying cars and better fuel efficent cars.
Ryan_Andrew said Look, Bro. I had the love of my life killed on 9-11-01 while going to work in the WTC to try have money to support me once I graduated high school and went on to college and be able to pay for all that and support me once I came out to my parents because he and I worried I would be cut off once I came out to them. when you ask what I would think and feel, I would think and feel that same way I did on that day for all thoes people and their families. Fact is Isreals problems are not Americas problems and everytime we stick our neck out for them we end up paying the price 10x over. Screw that. Im tired of having to clean up a mess brought over to us because of us allying ourselves with other countries. Im tired of us being critized and attacked while we continue to aid and feed thoes abroad when we have people here at home that are in just the same place and IMHO are more worthy and deserving of that aid as they are AMERICANS. If isreal wants to have a war, or any other country for that matter... thats your shit. You deal with it. You clean your own shit. Keep us the fuck out of it. I didnt think it was right to get involved in Kuwait, I dont think we should be inSaudi Araba. I think its time we pull our troops home and give the world a big FUCK YOU! You clean your own shit. You take care of yourselves. You shitheads cant make peace with each other. Youre fighting over old bogus things that happened long before you had a reason to be offended. I think Balian in the movie "Kingdom of Heaven" says it best. You shitheads need to just get over it already... both sides that is.
Man, this is ignorant shit. What's worse is that you are both proud of and truculent about your ignorance. You're exactly what's wrong with this country---stupid, proud of being stupid, and determined to stay stupid at all costs.
Caesarea4 saidSaddam had nukes when he seized Kuwait in 1990.
I didnt think it was right to get involved in Kuwait.
Kuwait was part of Iraq, when the British divided them up into two different nations. Kuwait steal oil from Iraq, that is why Saddam had nuke and seized Kuwait. Caesarea4 need to read the history book or do some research.
sxydrkhair> Kuwait was part of Iraq, when the British divided them up into two different nations. ...Caesarea4 need to read the history book or do some research.
I've read plenty of history books, which is why I get it right and Samer spews propaganda nonsense such as above.
Kuwait was never part of Iraq, not even under the Ottoman Empire (prior to British rule). It has been ruled by the Al-Sabah family since 1752 - which is to say that Kuwait is older than the USA and predates Iraq's formation by close to 2 centuries.
Caesarea4> what would have happened IF Saddam had nukes when he seized Kuwait in 1990.
sxydrkhair misquote> Saddam had nukes when he seized Kuwait in 1990
sxydrkhair crazy statement> Kuwait steal oil from Iraq, that is why Saddam had nuke and seized Kuwait.
As for the first part, I guess there is one person in the world who fell for Saddam's lie that Kuwait was slant-drilling into the Iraqi portion of the Rumaila oil field. The real reason for Saddam's aggression was Kuwait's unwillingness to forgive the $40 Billion in debt to Kuwait that Iraq piled up due to the war following its attempted invasion of Iran.
As for the second part, one can only wonder which one ("the") "history book" Samer read if he thought that Saddam already had nukes in 1990. This is not just a major factual error, but indicative of his inability to process information, to reason.
We see the same when he claims that since Jews owned 7% of the land, it proves that the Palestinian Arabs owned 93% - never mind that he's also provided data showing that a large portion of the land was not privately owned. In fact, resident Arabs only owned 3.3% of the land allocated to the State of Israel... which doesn't stop him from claiming that Jews "stole" the land despite confirmed reports that Jews purchased land, primarily land that the Arabs considered worthless (deserts, swamps and coastal sand dunes). Indeed, the collective memory of Arabs selling land to Jews is so strong that one of the first laws enacted by the PA was to make selling land to Jews a capital offense (punishable by death).
Unable to process information, we all know that Samer won't be able to debate or discuss this. All he'll do is regurgitate more propaganda and post new lies in defense of his old lies.
Ryan_Andrew> Isreals problems are not Americas problems and everytime we stick our neck out for them we end up paying the price 10x over. Screw that. Im tired of having to clean up a mess brought over to us because of us allying ourselves with other countries.
So it's news to you that the common enemies America, Europe and Israel call America the "Great Satan" while Israel is just the "Little Satan"? (Recent rumblings in Teheran, though, are that Britain has now topped the USA as the "Great Satan").
Ryan_Andrew> while we continue to aid and feed thoes abroad when we have people here at home that are in just the same place and IMHO
The foreign aid budget is 0.26% of the US budget. If you were truly concerned about feeding people at home you wouldn't juxtapose this with the foreign aid budget but with the other 99.74% of the US budget.
Ryan_Andrew> If isreal wants to have a war....
Dude, it would help if you could at least educate yourself to the point of spelling the country's name correctly.
Once again your prejudices and biased assumptions are revealed (and this explains why, despite on occasion attempting to smear both sides as "shitheads", you are nonetheless primarily critical of Israel).
Who said Israel wants war? If you knew the first thing about the history of this conflict (most of which has taken place during my lifetime) you'd know that decade after decade the Jewish Agency and Israel have been open to compromise and peaceful coexistence... only to be attacked by Arab/Muslim parties which reject that.
Ryan_Andrew> You shitheads cant make peace with each other
Israel has made peace with every Arab party that was interested in it. The first was Egypt when it finally accepted UNSCR 242 (for making peace with Israel, Egypt - the largest Arab country - was expelled from the Arab League). Next came Jordan. There was also a process with the Palestinian Authority, but note that groups like Hamas rose to fight that and in the end Arafat walked out of Camp David unable to end the conflict without first destroying Israel.
Tell me, how do you make peace with a group like Hamas, who in their Covenant state:
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp || There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.
How do you make peace with people who admit that they are foreign occupiers, but believe that this land is theirs forever because they conquered it nearly 1400 years ago?
|| The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. ...This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement.
Spain, are you paying attention? You too are part of "Dar al-Islam" (the house of submission, the areas already conquered by Islam). The rest of the world is "Dar al-Harb" (the house of war) which is still to be conquered and put under submission.
Caesarea4 saidRyan_Andrew> Isreals problems are not Americas problems and everytime we stick our neck out for them we end up paying the price 10x over. Screw that. Im tired of having to clean up a mess brought over to us because of us allying ourselves with other countries.
So it's news to you that the common enemies America, Europe and Israel call America the "Great Satan" while Israel is just the "Little Satan"? (Recent rumblings in Teheran, though, are that Britain has now topped the USA as the "Great Satan").
Ryan_Andrew> while we continue to aid and feed thoes abroad when we have people here at home that are in just the same place and IMHO
The foreign aid budget is 0.26% of the US budget. If you were truly concerned about feeding people at home you wouldn't juxtapose this with the foreign aid budget but with the other 99.74% of the US budget.
Ryan_Andrew> If isreal wants to have a war....
Dude, it would help if you could at least educate yourself to the point of spelling the country's name correctly.
Once again your prejudices and biased assumptions are revealed (and this explains why, despite on occasion attempting to smear both sides as "shitheads", you are nonetheless primarily critical of Israel).
Who said Israel wants war? If you knew the first thing about the history of this conflict (most of which has taken place during my lifetime) you'd know that decade after decade the Jewish Agency and Israel have been open to compromise and peaceful coexistence... only to be attacked by Arab/Muslim parties which reject that.
Ryan_Andrew> You shitheads cant make peace with each other
Israel has made peace with every Arab party that was interested in it. The first was Egypt when it finally accepted UNSCR 242 (for making peace with Israel, Egypt - the largest Arab country - was expelled from the Arab League). Next came Jordan. There was also a process with the Palestinian Authority, but note that groups like Hamas rose to fight that and in the end Arafat walked out of Camp David unable to end the conflict without first destroying Israel.
Tell me, how do you make peace with a group like Hamas, who in their Covenant state:
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp || There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.
How do you make peace with people who admit that they are foreign occupiers, but believe that this land is theirs forever because they conquered it nearly 1400 years ago?
|| The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. ...This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement.
Spain, are you paying attention? You too are part of "Dar al-Islam" (the house of submission, the areas already conquered by Islam). The rest of the world is "Dar al-Harb" (the house of war) which is still to be conquered and put under submission.
Dude... ever played World of Warcraft? You're more annoying than a Dwarf Frost Mage... God I hate those fuckers. I just really think you're full of shit and honestly that you're flat out racist towards SxyDrkHair cause of his background. Get over it already and let it go dude. Fine you have your opinions... he has his, I have mine. You're not going to be changing my mind or my opinion. The Great Satan is given to the US because they see us as the outsiders coming in to their land among other things. If we weren't there I highly doubt they'd have a reason to hate us. Who cares if it .26% or 26% of America's budget. I don't feel like running in the red to finance your religiously fueled crap wars. Get over your shit and learn to share the land like they did before the the last crusade. As for Spain goes... I dont see them still fighting over something that happened many moons ago. Get over it. Talk about a troll.
What's the point of quoting what I said if you're mostly going to ignore it and just make personal attacks?
RA> you have your opinions... he has his, I have mine.
Just as some have an opinion that the world is flat while others are of the opinion that the world is spherical? The difference is that I can and do back up my opinions with facts.
RA> You're not going to be changing my mind or my opinion.
Right, because evidently the scientific method is foreign to you. Your opinions trump data. Data that don't conform to your beliefs (model) must be wrong and ignored.
RA> The Great Satan is given to the US because they see us as the outsiders coming in to their land among other things.
And what are those "other things"? What is it about our way of life that threatens theirs?
Do you really believe that Kuwaitis hate us because we came to liberate them from Saddam?
RA> Who cares if it 0.26% or 26% of America's budget
Intelligent people, who care about numbers rather than spewing nonsense, do. When you focus on 0.26% of the budget rather than the other 99.74% of the budget it tells us that you're either being disingenuous or a fool.
RA> your religiously fueled crap wars.
What religiously fueled war are you talking about? Other than radical Islam's war?
RA> learn to share the land
We have no problem there. 20% of Israel's population is Arab/Muslim. They are full citizens with equal protection under the law. They (including women) vote and not only serve in the Knesset (parliament) but also as ministers in the ruling government coalition. They serve in the foreign office, including as ambassadors. They serve in the judiciary, including on the High (Supreme) Court. Israeli Arabs & Muslims even serve in the Israeli Army, achieving ranks as high as Generals, helping to defend their country.
Can you name a single Arab or Muslim country where Jews live as equals?
C4> decade after decade the Jewish Agency and Israel have been open to compromise and peaceful coexistence... only to be attacked by Arab/Muslim parties which reject that.
RA> ?
C4> Israel has made peace with every Arab party that was interested in it. The first was Egypt when it finally accepted UNSCR 242 (for making peace with Israel, Egypt - the largest Arab country - was expelled from the Arab League). Next came Jordan. There was also a process with the Palestinian Authority, but note that groups like Hamas rose to fight that and in the end Arafat walked out of Camp David unable to end the conflict without first destroying Israel.
RA> ?
C4> how do you make peace with a group like Hamas, who in their Covenant state: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors"?
RA> ?
C4> How do you make peace with people who admit that they are foreign occupiers, but believe that this land is theirs forever because they conquered it nearly 1400 years ago? ("the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement.")
RA> ?
C4> Spain, are you paying attention? You too are part of "Dar al-Islam" (the house of submission, the areas already conquered by Islam). The rest of the world is "Dar al-Harb" (the house of war) which is still to be conquered and put under submission.
RA> I dont see them still fighting over something that happened many moons ago
If Muslims attacked Spain claiming that it is land conquered by Islam and "consecrated" to "Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement"... you'd attack Spain for stealing land, waging a religious war and refusing to make peace?
Right wing Israelis have coopted the country and are committing a genocide with Arab and Christian Palestinians and they won't stop until they throw them into the sea.
Don't give me the "everyone is to blame here". Someone who has a state-of-the-art arms and nuclear weapons cannot be called a "victim".
Life includes many unpleasant issues. Nobody should presume to dictate to anyone here what is and isn't an appropriate topic for discussion. That's for the owners of the site to decide. I've reported you to RJ as you seemed hellbent on silencing the discussion.
Life includes many unpleasant issues. Nobody should presume to dictate to anyone here what is and isn't an appropriate topic for discussion. That's for the owners of the site to decide. I've reported you to RJ as you seemed hellbent on silencing the discussion.
McGay... I think those who read your postings and comments, have a pretty good idea you arent quite all there.. or as my gramma used to say, you don't have all your marbles.
Report me, attack me, whatever, I dont care. You shall not silence me, and I shall report you for trying to silence me =-)
Life includes many unpleasant issues. Nobody should presume to dictate to anyone here what is and isn't an appropriate topic for discussion. That's for the owners of the site to decide. I've reported you to RJ as you seemed hellbent on silencing the discussion.
McGay... I think those who read your postings and comments, have a pretty good idea you arent quite all there.. or as my gramma used to say, you don't have all your marbles.
Report me, attack me, whatever, I dont care. You shall not silence me, and I shall report you for trying to silence me =-)
OK, Norma Rae
I'll bet your "gramma" also used to say "ouch, not in the butt, daddy".
Wow, this is the first time I get hate e-mail from this site.
Someone is getting a liiiiitle uncomfortable when his politcal notions are challenged...
About the accusation of antisemitism, just sayin' I have been always very interested in Jewish culture and history (Abulafia, marrano literature, etc), and the critical role of Jewish intellectuals in socialism and progressive causes in History.
where is your evidence that right wing Israelis are using genocide?? Please show us proof before you throw out such insane wild and completely false accusations...
and do not post some link from an obvious anti-semetic website or muslim hate page .
Marsupial> Right wing Israelis have coopted the country
An odd accusation given that there were no reported irregularities in the most recent elections earlier this year, with Israel currently ruled by a left-right unity coalition government (and previously ruled by the centrist Kadima party).
Marsupial> are committing a genocide with Arab and Christian Palestinians
Another insane accusation, irresponsibly slinging slogans and sound-bites for propaganda purposes.
It just so happens to be that the only place in the mideast where the Christian population is increasing is in Israel.
Marsupial> they won't stop until they throw them into the sea.
Strike 3. Completing his total reversal of reality, Marsupial now accuses Israel of what the Arabs have traditionally threatened to do to the Jews. One can only wonder if he is unaware that it is the Jews who are between the Arabs and the sea... or that the head of the Arab League in 1948 called for a "momentous massacre".
Marsupial conveniently ignores not only the complete ethnic cleansing of Jews from all areas conquered by invading Arab armies in 1948 and that the Arabs insist that Arab Palestine be Judenfrei, but he also overlooks that Arabs in Israel are full citizens with equal protection under the law. Israeli Arabs (including women) not only vote, they serve in the Knesset (parliament) including as ministers in the ruling government coalition. They serve in the foreign office, including as ambassador to other countries. They serve in the judiciary, including on the High (supreme) Court... the only such court in the mideast where an Arab citizen can sue his own country, live to tell about it, and win or lose the case based only on its legal merits. Israeli Arabs even serve in the Israeli Defense Forces, achieving ranks as high as Generals, helping to defend their country.
To further his confabulations, Marsupial neglects the Arab role: Decades of aggression coupled with rejectionism of any compromise and coexistence, a tradition upheld today by Hamas and Hizbullah who claim "there is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors" and that "It is an open war until the elimination of Israel and until the death of the last Jew on earth".
You said it beautifully my man. It's so very sad when people make up their own "reality" of what really goes on in the mideast.
It's hard for me to ignore alot of the anti-semetic statements and beliefs that are stated in these forums. I don't like to get all worked up, but when someone has the audacity to claim Israel is practicing genocide, when the Jews of all people have been victim around the globe to such atrocities, would commit such hanous crimes, is beyond my ability to remain silent. Iran wants to wipe Israel off the map,.... Hamas's own charter is to push Israel into the sea.... but not a word about it.
I swear I woulld fight to my death to defend the jews and Israel.
Granted I've not read every post on this topic but my own opinion on this is that the Israeli government has the power in this issue. Leaving aside the issue of whether Israel has a right to exist or not (it exists NOW, so let's leave that alone) Israel could offer Palestinians the same rights as the jews there...no more ghettos, no more fences, private roads, etc. Also, if Israel is really interested in peace it could stop starving the arabs in the West Bank and blowing up its neighbors in Lebanon (2006) then claiming victimhood. The saddest part of all of this is that Israel was founded as a refuge for persecuted jews and evolved into that which it escaped.
Jackal69> The saddest part of all of this is that Israel was founded as a refuge for persecuted jews and evolved into that which it escaped.
False on both counts.
Israel was founded as the Jewish state-to-be following WW I because for 3300+ years that land was the Jewish homeland and Jews were the only nation in history to ever self-govern there (all others being foreign empires governing from afar, including 3 Arab dynasties between 638-1071).
The second point is just an anti-semitic twisting of reality via sophomoric role reversal. Whatever one thinks of the current situation, it simply cannot be compared to the highly engineered mass murder of 6 million Jews over the span of a handful of years.
Jackal69> Israel could offer Palestinians the same rights as the jews there...no more ghettos, no more fences, private roads
Another preposterous reversal abetted with some twisting.
Arabs in Israel are full citizens with equal protection under the law. Imagine for a moment that Afghanistan, rather than being half way around the world, was adjacent to the US, with a long border. Would you now claim that the US must provide all Afghanis with the same rights as American citizens?
Has it occurred to you that the "ghettos" in Judea & Samaria (and formerly in Gaza) are the Jewish villages? That the alternative to these Jewish ghettos, from 1948-1967, was no Jews at all? Let's not forget that the Europeans borrowed the concept of the Jewish ghetto from the Arab/Muslim "Melha".
Fences? Seriously? And, not mentioned, the "humiliating" check-points? Are we really to believe that that Arab terrorism was caused by these security measures that came as a response to it? Do you similarly reverse cause and effect and posit that hijackings are the result of airport security and the humiliating process that millions of passengers undergo?
Private roads? Again, rather than the perk for Israelis you pretend these are, the reality is that these are alternative roads which by-pass Arab areas that aren't safe for Israelis (including Arab Israelis) to travel on. This is as twisted as pretending that blacks in pre-civl rights America had their own private drinking fountains.
Jackal69> the Israeli government has the power in this issue. ...if Israel is really interested in peace it could stop starving the arabs in the West Bank
No one is starving in Judea & Samaria (which for 19 years was Trans/Jordan's so-called "West Bank", that's the part of Palestine that was East of the Jordan River that was West of the River), nor is anyone starving in Gaza. The reality is that these territories experienced huge economic growth after 1967 when they came under Israeli administration. Roads were paved, villages were hooked up to electric grids and water/sewage systems, refrigerators were introduced, hospitals and schools were built and agriculture boomed under modern farming techniques (including replacing wooden plows with tractors).
So why is it that there was no Arab desire for peace then? (Sadat was the only Arab leader to accept President Carter's invitation to Camp David, for which he was assassinated and Egypt - the largest Arab country - was expelled from the Arab League).
The economy took a down turn after the first intifdada and then under the corrupt rule of the PA (despite being the largest, per capita, recipient of international aid). Just as things were looking better in the late 1990s, the 2nd intifada came along and most recently the Hamas coup drove away investors.
Jackal69> blowing up its neighbors in Lebanon (2006)
So when Hizbullah (the terrorist organization that prior to 9/11 had murdered more Americans than any other) staged a cross border attack, kidnapped 3 Israelis and fired more than 80 rockets at Israeli population centers... that was a sign of Israeli aggression? Before you tell me that Israel reacted "disproportionately", recall that Israel sent a rescue force after the terrorists and bombed roads and runways to prevent the movement of the hostages, to which Hizbullah responded by firing hundreds of missiles at Israeli cities... from within Lebanese villages. Israel then went after those rocket launchers).
Let me ask you some of the same questions I posed to Ryan_Andrew (and which he ducked, along with the rest of what I said):
Decade after decade Israel (and the Jewish Agency before its establishment) have been open to compromise and peaceful coexistence... only to be attacked by Arab/Muslim parties which reject that: 1920-21, 1936-1939, 1948, 1967, 1973....
Israel has made peace with every Arab party that was interested. The first was Egypt then Jordan. There was also a process with the Palestinian Authority, but note that groups like Hamas rose to fight that and in the end Arafat walked out of Camp David unable to end the conflict without first destroying Israel.
How do you make peace with a group like Hamas, who in their Covenant state: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors"?
How do you make peace with people who admit that they are foreign occupiers, but believe that this land is theirs forever because they conquered it nearly 1400 years ago? ("the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement.")
How do you make peace with a group that declares: "It is an open war until the elimination of Israel and until the death of the last Jew on earth"?
Wow Caesaera spread lie again? I am a Palestinian Christian and few of my relatives in the West Bank were murdered by your stupid Israeli government. My uncle lost one of his testicle and torture by Israeli soldiers for doing nothing. My grandpa was murdered by Israeli solider, when he was going to meet my grandma at the church on Sunday morning. Don't tell me you know Palestinian Christians more than me.
You are saying there is no genocide? What about Gaza genocide? What about Palestinian Christians that were ethnic cleansing out of their lands and many were killed pre-1948 war? There were about 35% of Palestinian Christians before Israel was a country. Why don't you talk to your Israeli historian Ilan Pappe.
Jackal69 saidGranted I've not read every post on this topic but my own opinion on this is that the Israeli government has the power in this issue. Leaving aside the issue of whether Israel has a right to exist or not (it exists NOW, so let's leave that alone) Israel could offer Palestinians the same rights as the jews there...no more ghettos, no more fences, private roads, etc. Also, if Israel is really interested in peace it could stop starving the arabs in the West Bank and blowing up its neighbors in Lebanon (2006) then claiming victimhood. The saddest part of all of this is that Israel was founded as a refuge for persecuted jews and evolved into that which it escaped.
C4> Israel was founded as the Jewish state-to-be following WW I because for 3300+ years that land was the Jewish homeland and Jews were the only nation in history to ever self-govern there (all others being foreign empires governing from afar, including 3 Arab dynasties between 638-1071).
sxydrkhair> The present day Israel is not the same from the ancient Israel. Israel/Palestine was once a Christian country. Some Judean and Israelites converted to Christianity and Islam. That's history and it go on and on. It never stay as a Jewish state over 3300+ years. That is load of bullsh!t. Israelites were worshiping the Canaanites gods. God was disappointed in them. The present day Israel was founded by atheist Theodor Herzl, an European Zionist settler who immigrated to Palestine in the late 1800s.
C4> Arabs in Israel are full citizens with equal protection under the law.
sxydrkhair> Wrong, Arabs in Israel are not treated as full citizens. Some are treated like 2nd class citizens.
C4>Fences? Seriously? And, not mentioned, the "humiliating" check-points? Are we really to believe that that Arab terrorism was caused by these security measures that came as a response to it?
sxydrkhair> What Arab terrorism? The wall is dividing Palestinian villages and cities. The wall is not even outside on the green line. It is in the middle of the West Bank and you call that security?
Watch this video: The wall of hate
C4>Private roads? Again, rather than the perk for Israelis you pretend these are, the reality is that these are alternative roads which by-pass Arab areas that aren't safe for Israelis (including Arab Israelis) to travel on. This is as twisted as pretending that blacks in pre-civl rights America had their own private drinking fountains.
sxydrkhair>Not true, because there are some Israeli citizens (Israeli Arabs) drive on Palestinian roads like in the East Jerusalem and Bethlehem etc.
It's funny, but less than an hour after Samer sends me an email that he's going to ignore me (because nearly a year after I started a topic about peace, he still can't tell us on what, if anything, he's willing to compromise), Samer posts the above.
sxydrkhair> Wow Caesaera spread lie again?
What did I lie about? sxydrkhair can't say, he just makes a general - and thus personal - attack.
sxydrkhair> Don't tell me you know Palestinian Christians more than me.
I didn't. But I must say your anecdotal evidence isn't very convincing, especially given your proven record of lying-for-the-cause. I'm sure you can't and won't substantiate a single one of the kangaroo-court accusations.
sxydrkhair> You are saying there is no genocide? What about Gaza genocide?
There was no "genocide" in Gaza. What you are doing is a well known propaganda technique. Unable to make a logical appeal, you turn to an emotional appeal based on slogans and sound-bites.
sxydrkhair> What about Palestinian Christians that were ethnic cleansing out of their lands and many were killed pre-1948 war?
Please provide a source for any such thing prior the start of Arab violence and terrorism following the UN partition compromise issued in Nov. 1947.
Consider further that the majority of Arab refugees fled without ever seeing a Jewish/Israeli soldier. They were not "ethnically cleansed" (another emotional slogan/soundbite) or forced out, they fled because the Arabs promised (and delivered) violence and war.
sxydrkhair> There were about 35% of Palestinian Christians before Israel was a country.
In Israel, the Christian population is growing, while in the PA and in surrounding Arab areas, the Christian population is in decline.
As noted by the Peel Commission in 1937 (which I already quoted here on Sep. 28th and which Samer ignored): || The Arab population shows a remarkable increase since 1920 Yet this he confabulates as a "genocide"? || The shortage of land is due less to PURCHASE by Jews than to the increase in the Arab population.
Due to British and Jewish development, Arabs - mostly Muslims - were flowing in to Mandate Palestine from surrounding regions. As I already provided and Samer ignored:
C4> the Arab population grew most precisely in the areas of British and Jewish development. In Haifa (new port and industry), between the world wars the Arab population grew by 290%. In Jaffa (adjacent to Tel Aviv) by 158%. In Jerusalem (where Jews had pioneered development outside the old city walls) 131%. Yet in Nablus (currently the largest city in what previously was Trans/Jordan's so-called "West Bank") the Arab population over that same period grew by only 42%. In Bethlehem, 38%. In Jenin (closer to Jewish areas, which is why it recently gained infamy as the departure point of suicide bombers) "only" 78%.
Consider further that according to British police records most - 95% - illegal immigrants were not Jews but Arabs. In 1939, the British built a fence along the border with Lebanon to stem the flow. Until that year, the British didn't even count as immigrants the scores of thousands of Arabs who entered western Mandate Palestine from eastern/Trans-Jordanian Mandate Palestine.
Samer's lie further contorts that the decrease in the PERCENTAGE of Arab Christians wasn't due to "ethnic cleansing" or "genocide" by Israel/Jews but by the massive increase in the Arab Muslim population.
Samer, how many Christians are left in Gaza following Israel's withdrawal? Are the churches still not allowed to ring their Bells (as was reported last Christmas)?
sxydrkhair> The present day Israel is not the same from the ancient Israel. Israel/Palestine was once a Christian country.
Israel was under foreign Byzantine OCCUPATION and under foreign Crusader OCCUPATION. So what?
The Muslims claim that this land is theirs (forever) because they conquered and occupied it by force in 638. Are you saying that this is also Christian land because they conquered and occupied it by force at various times?
sxydrkhair> Some Judean and Israelites converted to Christianity and Islam.
Yes, some individuals did, but there is no record of large-scale conversions to support your false claim that the Arabs in Mandate Palestine descend from Jews - a claim which your own source debunked. Genetic evidence shows that these Arabs are not descendents but "cousins" dating back some 8,000 years.
The fact of the matter is that Jews have been living on this land, CONTINUOUSLY, for at least 3300 years. Given that historic and archeological evidence suggests that the Jews, rather than being transplants from Ur, originated from the Canaanites, the ancestors of the Jews lived there for thousands more years before that.
The fact of the matter is that the only nation (as opposed to city-states) to ever locally self-govern on this land are the Jews. All others, including various Arab dynasties from 638-1071, were foreign occupiers. (Arabs occupied Spain for longer - and more recently).
C4> Private roads? Again, rather than the perk for Israelis you pretend these are, the reality is that these are alternative roads which by-pass Arab areas that aren't safe for Israelis (including Arab Israelis) to travel on. This is as twisted as pretending that blacks in pre-civl rights America had their own private drinking fountains.
sxydrkhair> there are some Israeli citizens (Israeli Arabs) drive on Palestinian roads like in the East Jerusalem and Bethlehem etc.
That doesn't counter what I said. Israeli Arabs are tolerated on the Arab-only roads (which is the majority of them), Jews (regardless of nationality) are not. Israeli Arabs can travel the alleged "Jew only" roads.
So the "Jews only roads" accusation is a proven propaganda lie.
Shame on those who pretend to care about that while ignoring that most of the roads are "Arab only".
sxydrkhair> Arabs in Israel are not treated as full citizens. Some are treated like 2nd class citizens.
Arabs in Israel are full citizens with equal protection under the law. Israeli Arabs (including women) not only vote, they serve in the Knesset (parliament) including as ministers in the ruling government coalition. They serve in the foreign office, including as ambassador to other countries. They serve in the judiciary, including on the High (supreme) Court... the only such court in the mideast where an Arab citizen can sue his own country, live to tell about it, and win or lose the case based only on its legal merits. Israeli Arabs even serve in the Israeli Defense Forces, achieving ranks as high as Generals, helping to defend their country.
sxydrkhair> What Arab terrorism?
Samer, no one here is falling for your disingenuous lies. The separation barrier (95% of which is a fence, not "wall" - that's another emotional appeal based on a slogan/soundbite to fill in for the absence of a logical appeal) was built to stem the tide of Arab terrorist attacks on Israeli citizens - and it has worked, thus saving lives on both sides.
Go talk to your Jewish or Israeli historians. Because you're a Zionist hardliner and spewing bullsh!t propaganda lie. Just like what the Nazi propagandists did to Jews during the Holocaust. You are full of hate.
As Israeli journalist Tom Segev summarized, in a review of the book in Ha’aretz:
There never was a Jewish people, only a Jewish religion, and the exile also never happened — hence there was no return. Zand rejects most of the stories of national-identity formation in the Bible, including the exodus from Egypt and, most satisfactorily, the horrors of the conquest under Joshua.
Shlomo Zand: An invention called 'the Jewish people' When the country was conquered by the Arabs, many of the Jews converted to Islam and were assimilated among the conquerors. It follows that the progenitors of the Palestinian Arabs were Jews. Zand did not invent this thesis; 30 years before the Declaration of Independence, it was espoused by David Ben-Gurion, Yitzhak Ben-Zvi and others.
Indeed, David Ben-Gurion and Yitzhak Ben Zvi, later becoming Israel's first and second Prime Minister respectively, wrote in 1918 that Palestinian peasants and their mode of life were living historical testimonies to Israelite practices in the biblical period.
Ben Gurion further stating:
"The greater majority and main structures of the Muslim Falahin in Western Erez Israel [modern Israel, West Bank, and Gaza Strip] present to us one racial strand and a whole ethnic unit, and there is no doubt that much Jewish blood flows in their veins -- the blood of those Jewish farmers, "lay persons," who chose in the travesty of times to abandon their faith in order to remain on their land.
Israeli reasercher Tsvi Misinai, asserts that up to 89% of all Palestinians descend from the Jewish peasantry that remained on the land after the ruling class (the ancestors of world Jewry which while uprooted kept the religion) was exiled. Meanwhile, much of the local Palestinian population in Nablus is believed to be descended from Samaritans (an Israelite sect) converted to Islam. Even today, certain Nabulsi surnames including Muslimani, Yaish, and Shakshir among others, are associated with a Samaritan origin.
Modern Israelis are occupiers. Why can't you admit that? You are saying those Israelis family in Israel have deep root in Palestine 3000 + years? They just immigrated there in Palestine late 1800's.
We've already discussed Zand several times. He's not an expert in the field, and experts in the field reject his conjectures. Furthermore, like you, Zand ignores the scientific DNA evidence that proves his theory wrong.
Zand is a hack, and the only people who are impressed with his work are propaganda hacks like you who want to believe despite the facts.
Turning around and quoting politicians (who - already in 1918 - were advovcating for peaceful relations between the Jews and Arabs) is more hackery.
Misinai has the same honorable motivation and fails to backup his assertions.
Let's not forget thta previously Samer argued that these Arabs descend from the Canaanites (nope) and then the Philistines (nope). Now he's relegated to arguing that they descend from the Jews?
Following the Arab conquest various Arab tribes (including the Amilah, Judham, Kinanah, Kindah and Lakhm) colonized the region. Others joined later (e.g. Ramallah was established by people who came from Trans-Jordan). Many Egyptians came up with Muhammad Ali around 1840 (and stayed). Through the 19th century, the Arabs of Palestine self-identified as either Qais (northern) or Yemeni (southern) Arabs, a division that ran so deep that it was a battle line. You can still tell the origin of many Palestinian Arab families by their names. The Barghoutis came from a village with the same name in Iraq. The Al Masris (literally meaning “the Egyptian”) came from Egypt. So many came from northern Africa that Jerusalem had a “Mugrabi Quarter”. If you look at other leading family histories, you’ll find that:
|| The Nusseibeh family claims its ancestors came with Umar[28]; the Husseini family claims to have come with Saladin[29]; the Nashashibi are though to have come with the Mamelukes[30]; Dajani are a peninsular Arabian family that were awarded estates in Jerusalem in the 15th century[31]. Among modern Palestinian Arab leaders, Izzedin al Qassam [the Hamas icon] was Syrian, for example, and Fawzi al Qauqji was Lebanese.
Between the world wars, more Arabs flocked to Mandate Palestine – drawn by the improvement in conditions resulting from British and Jewish development (previously the Arab population had been in decline for centuries). The British initially encouraged immigration from Syria to Haifa (with its new port and industry). By the mid 1930s, 95% of illegal immigrants captured by the British were Arabs. By 1939, the British built a fence along the border with Lebanon to help keep out illegal immigrants. Until that year, they didn't even count as immigrants those Arabs who entered western Mandate Palestine from eastern Trans-Jordanian Mandate Palestine.
Even within western Mandate Palestine, the Arab population grew most in areas of Jewish development. Between the world wars, the Arab population of Haifa grew 290%. In Jaffa (adjacent to Tel Aviv), 158%. In Jerusalem (where Jews pioneered development outside the old city walls), 131%. In contrast, in Nablus (today the largest city in the so-called "West Bank") the Arab population grew by "only" 42%. In Bethlehem, 39%. In Jenin (closer to Jewish areas, which is why it recently gained infamy as the departure point of suicide bombers), 78%.
The funniest part about sxydrkhair shopping for factoids to support his failed model is that they undo him as well: if the Jews aren't a nation and the Palestinian Arabs allegedly descend from Jews, then how can they be a nation? Not only are the facts erroneous, but the logic is bad, too.
This is selective wishful thinking at both at the factual and the logical level.
Samer, did you wish to address anything I said above or were you trying to change the topic (to things which have already been discussed elsewhere) because you've been proven wrong on every point?
Why does Samer continue to spam his BS here while he is silent in the peace topic?
That's the crux and the difference between us. I believe I'm right (and I have science, history and archeology to back me up), but I can set that aside and say "let's compromise and make peace". Samer thinks he's right (despite being shown wrong on point after piont) and thus he thinks he doesn't have to compromise and isn't interested in peaceful coexistence - instead opting for eternal violence, terrorism and war until he wins (even while pretending that he is the poor victim of this state of war).
Again Caesarea4, you are in denial. I never said Palestinians are pure Canaanites or pure Jews or pure in any races. Palestinians are mixed and they are descends of Jews, Canaanites, Philistines (Greeks), Arabs, Persians, Romans, Crusaders, Turks, and British etc. Nobody can't be pure race or any races. I have Hebrew middle and last names. Does that tell you something? My religion is not Jewish. I am not Israelis (OCCUPIERS) or Zionists. I am a Palestinian and my ancestors have a deep roots in Palestine before Jesus was born. If Jesus is still alive and living in the Jerusalem or Bethlehem (his birthplace). He will consider himself Palestinian. Like the present day Palestinians. Israelis that living in Israel today come from all over the world and have no connection to that land. So do me a favor, stop being in denial and read the history book. Stop with your hate too.
All my post above are Israeli historians, journalist, and researchers. So don't point finger saying I said this or that. It is all Jewish sources and so that you can see you are such a Palestinian hater and in denial.
Grow some balls Caesarea (whatever your name is)... Palestinians are there to stay and they are native to this land way before any of you Israelis (immigrated in the late 1800's from Europe). I don't blame the Jews that immigrated to Palestine. I blame racist white European Christian against Jews in Europe. It is unfair to ethnic cleansing and killing Palestinians, while the white Germans started this whole fucking mess. Now Zionists in Israel are new GERMANS.
sxydrkhair> This is your new nick name "TROLL OF REALJOCK"
As usual, unable to honestly address anything I said, we get the combination of nonsensical lies and personal attacks by Samer (the irony that he calls me "troll" is lost on him).
He continues to banter around emotional slogans and sound-bites such as "ethnic cleansing", but previously challenged to support his kangaroo-court accusations, he comes up blank:
sxydrkhair> What about Palestinian Christians that were ethnic cleansing out of their lands and many were killed pre-1948 war?
Caesarea4> Please provide a source for any such thing prior the start of Arab violence and terrorism following the UN partition compromise issued in Nov. 1947.
I'm sure no one is surprised that unable to respond with substance, you have been relegated to personal attacks. At least this time around you didn't bother quoting what I posted. As I previously noted:
What's the point of quoting what I said if you're mostly going to ignore it and just make personal attacks?
What "Ryan_Andrew" can't address:
RA> you have your opinions... he has his, I have mine.
Just as some have an opinion that the world is flat while others are of the opinion that the world is spherical? The difference is that I can and do back up my opinions with facts.
RA> You're not going to be changing my mind or my opinion.
Right, because evidently the scientific method is foreign to you. Your opinions trump data. Data that don't conform to your beliefs (model) must be wrong and ignored.
RA> The Great Satan is given to the US because they see us as the outsiders coming in to their land among other things.
And what are those "other things"? What is it about our way of life that threatens theirs?
Do you really believe that Kuwaitis hate us because we came to liberate them from Saddam?
RA> Who cares if it 0.26% or 26% of America's budget
Intelligent people, who care about numbers rather than spewing nonsense, do. When you focus on 0.26% of the budget rather than the other 99.74% of the budget it tells us that you're either being disingenuous or a fool.
RA> your religiously fueled crap wars.
What religiously fueled war are you talking about? Other than radical Islam's war?
RA> learn to share the land
We have no problem there. 20% of Israel's population is Arab/Muslim. They are full citizens with equal protection under the law. They (including women) vote and not only serve in the Knesset (parliament) but also as ministers in the ruling government coalition. They serve in the foreign office, including as ambassadors. They serve in the judiciary, including on the High (Supreme) Court. Israeli Arabs & Muslims even serve in the Israeli Army, achieving ranks as high as Generals, helping to defend their country.
Can you name a single Arab or Muslim country where Jews live as equals?
C4> decade after decade the Jewish Agency and Israel have been open to compromise and peaceful coexistence... only to be attacked by Arab/Muslim parties which reject that.
RA> ?
C4> Israel has made peace with every Arab party that was interested in it. The first was Egypt when it finally accepted UNSCR 242 (for making peace with Israel, Egypt - the largest Arab country - was expelled from the Arab League). Next came Jordan. There was also a process with the Palestinian Authority, but note that groups like Hamas rose to fight that and in the end Arafat walked out of Camp David unable to end the conflict without first destroying Israel.
RA> ?
C4> how do you make peace with a group like Hamas, who in their Covenant state: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors"?
RA> ?
C4> How do you make peace with people who admit that they are foreign occupiers, but believe that this land is theirs forever because they conquered it nearly 1400 years ago? ("the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement.")
RA> ?
C4> Spain, are you paying attention? You too are part of "Dar al-Islam" (the house of submission, the areas already conquered by Islam). The rest of the world is "Dar al-Harb" (the house of war) which is still to be conquered and put under submission.
RA> I dont see them still fighting over something that happened many moons ago
If Muslims attacked Spain claiming that it is land conquered by Islam and "consecrated" to "Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement"... you'd attack Spain for stealing land, waging a religious war and refusing to make peace?
Was there an elephant in the room at the recent meeting of the G20?
So much devoted to badgering Iran over its alleged nuclear ambitions and not a word about Israel's nuclear arsenal or it's aggressive expansion into Palestinian homeland.
Just who is the greater threat to peace and stability in the Middle East, Iran or Israel?
Perhaps it is time Barack Obama and other world leaders began to question their unconditional support for Israel.
In posing these questions I trust this mild criticism of Israel does not make me "anti Semitic" of a Holocaust denier.
Pattison> it's aggressive expansion into Palestinian homeland.
Reality:
"Palestine" is the Latin/European name for Eretz Yisrael, the Jewish homeland - and Arab denials of the existence of "Palestine". http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/349491
Pattison> not a word about Israel's nuclear arsenal
Not an issue. Israel isn't violating the NPT nor has it threatened to destroy or "burn" any of its neighbors.
Pattison> Just who is the greater threat to peace and stability in the Middle East, Iran or Israel?
Without any question, Iran. It arms, trains and funds terrorist organizations such as Hamas and Hizbullah. That most Arab states are more concerned about Iran than Israel should tell you something.
Pattison> In posing these questions I trust this mild criticism of Israel does not make me "anti Semitic"
I don't know what's more bizarre, pretending that you are only "mildly" criticizing Israel or making your statment. It's not even clear what, other than Israel, you are criticizing.
What's more curious is that your general "criticism" has no backbone, as if it came first and then you went fishing for rationalizations to justify your pre-existing prejudices.
It's reminiscent of the homophobic line that: homosexuals are evil because they are sexual predators who prey on young people.
Curryous> Death to zionism
Isn't it odd how some people scream such slogans (seeking to destroy Israel, claiming it is the "aggressor" and "threat") but have nothing to say about ending the conflict and making peace?
In search of a solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict: UNSCR 242, Oslo and Camp David/Taba (Or: I support the Clinton COMPROMISE parameters. Do you?!) http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/354843
I'm sure no one is surprised that unable to respond with substance, you have been relegated to personal attacks. At least this time around you didn't bother quoting what I posted. As I previously noted:
What's the point of quoting what I said if you're mostly going to ignore it and just make personal attacks?
What "Ryan_Andrew" can't address:
RA> you have your opinions... he has his, I have mine.
Just as some have an opinion that the world is flat while others are of the opinion that the world is spherical? The difference is that I can and do back up my opinions with facts.
RA> You're not going to be changing my mind or my opinion.
Right, because evidently the scientific method is foreign to you. Your opinions trump data. Data that don't conform to your beliefs (model) must be wrong and ignored.
RA> The Great Satan is given to the US because they see us as the outsiders coming in to their land among other things.
And what are those "other things"? What is it about our way of life that threatens theirs?
Do you really believe that Kuwaitis hate us because we came to liberate them from Saddam?
RA> Who cares if it 0.26% or 26% of America's budget
Intelligent people, who care about numbers rather than spewing nonsense, do. When you focus on 0.26% of the budget rather than the other 99.74% of the budget it tells us that you're either being disingenuous or a fool.
RA> your religiously fueled crap wars.
What religiously fueled war are you talking about? Other than radical Islam's war?
RA> learn to share the land
We have no problem there. 20% of Israel's population is Arab/Muslim. They are full citizens with equal protection under the law. They (including women) vote and not only serve in the Knesset (parliament) but also as ministers in the ruling government coalition. They serve in the foreign office, including as ambassadors. They serve in the judiciary, including on the High (Supreme) Court. Israeli Arabs & Muslims even serve in the Israeli Army, achieving ranks as high as Generals, helping to defend their country.
Can you name a single Arab or Muslim country where Jews live as equals?
C4> decade after decade the Jewish Agency and Israel have been open to compromise and peaceful coexistence... only to be attacked by Arab/Muslim parties which reject that.
RA> ?
C4> Israel has made peace with every Arab party that was interested in it. The first was Egypt when it finally accepted UNSCR 242 (for making peace with Israel, Egypt - the largest Arab country - was expelled from the Arab League). Next came Jordan. There was also a process with the Palestinian Authority, but note that groups like Hamas rose to fight that and in the end Arafat walked out of Camp David unable to end the conflict without first destroying Israel.
RA> ?
C4> how do you make peace with a group like Hamas, who in their Covenant state: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors"?
RA> ?
C4> How do you make peace with people who admit that they are foreign occupiers, but believe that this land is theirs forever because they conquered it nearly 1400 years ago? ("the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement.")
RA> ?
C4> Spain, are you paying attention? You too are part of "Dar al-Islam" (the house of submission, the areas already conquered by Islam). The rest of the world is "Dar al-Harb" (the house of war) which is still to be conquered and put under submission.
RA> I dont see them still fighting over something that happened many moons ago
If Muslims attacked Spain claiming that it is land conquered by Islam and "consecrated" to "Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement"... you'd attack Spain for stealing land, waging a religious war and refusing to make peace?
By still trollin' I was refering to you. No offense but the 20th was my bday and I wasn't about to waste it away trying to take on someone whom is locked in their position. nice way to stick quotes in my mouth that are not even correct. whatever... Im with samer on this one. Enough said.
Let's see: I'm making points of substance and you are making personal attacks. So when you say I'm trolling, I think most people understand that as just another personal attack (and hypocrisy).
If you can't speak to the points, why even bother posting?
More hypocrisy in this accusation, too:
RA> someone whom is locked in their position
yet previously:
RA> You're not going to be changing my mind or my opinion.
It's odd that both RA and Samer think that making personal attacks is supposed to make me change my opinion, but that me presenting data and facts shouldn't change their positions.
As the saying goes, you can't reason someone out of a position that they weren't reasoned into in the first place.
filmhottie saidNOT THE APPROPRIATE PLACE FOR THIS TOPIC!!!!
With the free range of topics that have been covered here at RJ, during my many years here. To exclude this one topic would be wrong, as there are many topics that divide us, and not just this one. Like Masculine Vs Fem guys.
Gay democrats Vs Gay republicans.
Religions people Vs non religus people.
Also since this conflict does include gay and bisexual men on both sides of the wall, I do not see why this is not an appropriate place to discuss this topic; not talking about it, is not going to make it go away.
ha.. we have and actually Samer has given you more facts than you could toss in a salad and you still continue to throw pro-Israeli documents and studies from biased entities. Hardly something anyone of any scholarly level would called substantive. So again I say, why am I going to waste my time? Show me something non-partisan the refutes anything of what anyone has presented against your cause. Good luck finding it. I've tried on more than one occasion. I actually supported and felt for Israel and their plight especially during Operation Desert Storm where I was a kid and interested in what was going on cause you know as a pretty bright 1st or 2nd (not so sure anymore) grader that could read at about a 6th grade lvl, I was interested in the whole deal out there. Yeah... got convinced otherwise and further reading/studying in college just reiterated the facts.
sxydrkhair saidAll my post above are Israeli historians, journalist, and researchers. So don't point finger saying I said this or that. It is all Jewish sources and so that you can see you are such a Palestinian hater and in denial.
...And British Mandate for the UN
Notice, you'll be label an anti-Semitic because you don't agree with any Jewish or Israeli sources that I was using above.
sxydrkhair> you don't agree with any Jewish or Israeli sources that I was using
The problem is your method of choosing sources. Rather than seek a good source, you cherry pick one based on whether it says something you like or not. You don't care if the source isn't an expert let alone in the field about which you quote.
Beyond that, you selectivelly choose from within that source. So you might quote once sentence - while rejecting everything else that source says.
This only goes to show that you don't understand the scientific method - or don't care to use it because it doesn't give you the answers you desire.
sxydrkhair saidNow Zionists in Israel are new GERMANS.
Yep, you are right... I used to live in Bethlehem 2 years and Zionists are new Nazis... I was in Gaza war last December and Gaza is the world's biggest Concentration Camp... Terrible!... I hope your family stays safe!
Ah, the odious use of propaganda slogans and soundbites to make emotional points which cannot otherwise be made with facts and logic.
Ian> Zionists are new Nazis... Gaza is the world's biggest Concentration Camp
There is no correspondence between Gaza and nazi concentration (let alone) death camps. For starters, Israel provides basic necessities including power, food, water and medical supplies.
Smugglers (those not bringing in bombs and rockets) bring in luxury goods (and despite the wide-spread allegations of "poverty", people in Gaza are able to pay the high prices demanded for these luxury goods.
Indeed, a strange thing was observed when the Hamas mob tore down the wall separating Gaza from Egypt. People from Gaza went to Egyptian Rafah to buy luxury goods... while people in Egyptian Rafah crossed into Gaza to buy basic necessities.
Ian> Holocaust
You do realize that during the Holocaust, about 10,000 Jews (1/4 of them children) were methodically murdered every day for a handful of years, right?
It's simply hard to understand if Ian (and Samer's) statement is some bizarre form of Holocaust denial or simply a completely absurd and ridiculous juxtapositioning for cheap spam propaganda purposes.
If your allegation had merit, you'd be able to respond to what I say and show it wrong - without having to selectively cherry pick not just sources but often taking them out of context.
Yet you haven't been able to show anything I say to be false.
To the contrary, when one reads other than the parts you selectively quote, we find confirmation of what I say in your own sources.
1. Remember you claimed that the population of Jaffa was forced out? You linked to a propaganda web-site which proclaimed as much in bold text, yet down below a resident who was there told a much different story. His family was out shopping and upon returning home was surprised to find that their neighbors had chosen to evacuate (because the surrounding Arab states had declared war on Israel). No wonder that your propaganda pictures showing them getting on boats in Jaffa port didn't include any Jewish/Israeli soldiers "forcing" them to leave.
2. Who could forget how you simultaneously provided contradicting sources regarding land ownership. One claimed that since Jews only owned 7% of the land, that meant that Arabs privately owned 93%. Yet at the same time, your other source showed that the majority of land was not privately owned (and when one works through the math - as I've done several time without any criticism or "correction" from you - rather than dishonest cookings such as your first source, we find out that resident Arabs only owned 3.3% of the area allocated to the Jewish state by the UN partition compromise).
3. Then there was your mish-mash about the origin of the Arabs of Eretz Yisrael (or "Palestine" by its Latin/European name). First you claimed that they descend from the Canaanites and Philistines. Yet those groups disappeared 1200 and 1500 years prior to the arrival of the Arabs in 638 CE and you were unable to provide any historic or archeological evidence to show the existence of such a population throughout those many centuries (i.e. the Assryrians, Babylonians, Persians, Macedonians, Romans and Byzantines hadn't encountered them, and there is no archeological footprint).
4. Worse yet you argued that they were a Semitic people [sic], but the Canaanites and the Philistines where Hamitic (according to the 3,000 year old Biblical anthropology which has nothing to do with real anthropology).
5. Discredited, you then began to argue that the Arabs descend from Jews who converted to either Christianity or Islam. There is no historical record of any such mass conversions and the source you provided actually said the exact opposite: that there was no scientific evidence for this. At that point you also began trying to appropriate Jewish history as your own, ridiculously claiming places such as Meggido, Massada and Tzippori.
6. To this day you cling to that false history, despite not only the clear trail of Arab migration into Eretz Yisrael over the last few centuries (very few Arab families predate the Mamluk devastation), but also in the face of genetic DNA evidence which shows a "cousin" relationship (dating back 10,000 years, well before the mythical Abraham) rather than a "descendant" relationship.
7. Indeed, you concede that the Arabs of Palestine are pretty much a mishmash of people who migrated into this land, which is quite different from descending from the native and indigenous Jews. That actually is very close to the truth, with most of them arriving in recent centuries (with rare yet large waves of immigration in the 16th century, around 1840 from Egypt with Muhammad Ali, and between the world wars in the 20th century, ironically drawn by British and Jewish development.
8. Perhaps worst of all were your claims that an Arab Palestine existed prior to WW I. Yet for centuries (I provided 3 maps about 100 years apart) the area was depicted as the Jewish homeland, broken down into the Jewish tribal areas, and co-labeled "Judea & Israel". You were never able to provide us with any historical map showing an Arab Palestine (flailingly you provided a map of the Ottoman Empire made after WW I which retroactively showed Palestine). It's now been a year, still can't find an historical map from the 12th-19th centuries showing an "Arab Palestine"?
9. Just as bad, Samer denied that "Historic Palestine" existed on both banks of the Jordan River (i.e. including Israel, the disputed territories, and Trans/Jordan). Never mind that these territories were under the same League of Nations Mandate, the same High Commissioner, used the same currency and stamps and that Arabs (until 1939) could migrate from eastern Trans-Jordanian Mandate Palestine to western Cis-Jordanian Mandate Palestine without even being counted as immigrants. Never mind that after Trans-Jordan invaded and seized Judea & Samaria in 1948, it "united" them as its so-called "West Bank" and renamed itself as simply "Jordan" (since it was no longer only Trans-Jordanian Palestine). Never mind that in the early 1970s, Yasser Arafat and his thugs attempted to assassinate the Jordanian King and take over the country for themselves.
10. But wait, there's more. Samer falsely claimed that "Urdunn" (Jordan) and "Filastin" (the Arabic mis-pronunciation of "Palestine" - sxydrkhair has yet to explain why alleged Jewish/Christian converts to Islam suddenly lost the ability to pronounce the "P" consonant which doesn't exist in Arabic) were always two separate regions during the time of the Arab empires after the invasion and conquest of the Land of Israel in 638 CE. Unfortunately, he's wrong on the double. Both were a "Jund" - military district - of the empire then based in Damascus/Syria. And neither resembled the 1923 partition (which saw the 80% of eastern Palestine given exclusively to Arabs, no Jews allowed, with the 20% of western Palestine reserved for the Jewish homeland). If we go back in history 950-1400 years, Urdunn and Filastin spanned both banks of the Jordan River. Urdunn comprised the northern half of Israel and Jordan and extended into Lebanon while Filastin comprised the southern halves of Israel and Jordan and extended into Sinai.
Again: Urdunn and Filastin were military districts within Syria, and they only existed as such until about 1071. Which is to say that not only has Arab Palestine never existed in the sense that Samer claims (it was a military district imposed by a foreign occupier), but also that "Arab Palestine" has not existed in any form for nearly 1,000 years. No wonder Samer can't find a map... yet he still clings to his false and failed model.
Awful, isn't it, how Samer twists and manipulates "facts", attempting to make them conform to his immutable premises masquerading as conclusions?
Wiki is hardly reliable for one and two a vast majority of your sources are pro-Israeli and not from a non-biased 3rd party PoV. Just saying that if you could bring something of the sort it might help your case but when I look and and listen to people like Ian and listen to the likes of Christean Amonpour on cnn reporting of the same kinds of things it make it harder to believe in of your case and anything you've presents and being non-biased 3rd party but rather being more of the same pro-Israeli rhetoric.
As usual, unable to address any issue of substance, we get the following nonsense from Ryan_Andrew:
RA> wiki is hardly reliable
Since anyone can edit it, it certainly isn't the last word but it does tend to be self-correcting precisely for the same reason. Above and beyond that, wikipedia in turns provides it sources which in this case are completely reliable.
Just to totally pwn you:
http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/s8638.pdf || Within the Syrian province (al-sham in Arabic), the southern districts east and west of the Jordan River (formerly Palaestina Prima) were transformed into the military district (jund) of Filastin, with its capital first at Lydda and later at newly founded Ramla. To the north, Palaestina Secunda became Jund al-Urdunn (the military district of Jordan), with its capital at Tiberias.
So we have confirmation that Jund al-Urdunn was the renaming of Palaestina Secunda and Jund Filastin was just a renaming of Palaestina Prima (formerly Judea). Both of these military districts spanned both sides of the Jordan river (check any map and you'll see that Tiberias, the Capital of al-Urdunn, is west of the Sea of Galilee. Note further that despite modern day revisionism and insistence that Jerusalem must be the capital of Arab Palestine to be, Jerusalem was so unimportant to the Arab/Muslim occupiers that they didn't even make it the capital of Filastin, choosing Lydda and Ramla above it.
So now that we have confirmation of Wikipedia, what else will you whine about in an effort to avoid the substance?
RA> your sources are pro-Israeli and not from a non-biased 3rd party PoV
Really? I just provided 6 sources: 2 Wikipedia (confirmed by academic sources above) 1 Mideastweb.org 1 utexas historical map collectiojn 2 maps from the Library of congress.
Perhaps you consider mideastweb pro-Israel because it advocates peace? More likely you're just making up sh*t to avoid the points made.
Unable to address points of substance, Ryan_Andrew plays the dishonest "source game". If the sources I provided were truly the problem, if the information contained there was wrong, then it would be easy to refute the information (rather than attack the messenger). It is precisely because he can't that RA carries on as he does.
1. Palestineremembered.com is not a propaganda website. Most of their sources are Israeli historians, United Nations, British government etc. Many Palestinians were forced to leave by the Zionist terrorist gangs and massacres thousands of Palestinian civilians. Anybody can leave a comment below in that site and say different things.
2. In 1890 there were 25,000 Jews lived in Palestine. It is impossible that they own more than 7% of the land of historical Palestine. Thousands of Jews moved to Palestine to escape pogroms in Russia & Romania. Before 1890’s there were only less than 1% Jews in Palestine.
3. Canaanites were originally from Arabian Peninsula and later migrated to Palestine (Canaan.) The following is a list of ancient Semitic peoples. • Akkadians — migrated into Mesopotamia in the late 4th millennium BC and amalgamate with non-Semitic Mesopotamian (Sumerian) populations into the Assyrians and Babylonians of the Late Bronze Age.[3][4] • Eblaites — 23rd century BC • Aramaeans — 16th to 8th century BC[5] / Akhlames (Ahlamu) 14th century BC[6] • Ugarites, 14th to 12th centuries BC • Canaanite language speaking nations of the early Iron Age: o Amorites (Part Canaanites tribes) o Ammonites o Edomites o Hebrews/Israelites — founded the nation of Israel which later split into the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah. The remnants of these people became the Judeans and Samaritans. o Moabites o Phoenicians — founded Mediterranean colonies including Carthage (part of Canaanites) • Old South Arabian speaking peoples o Sabaeans of Yemen — 9th to 1st c. BC • Ethio-Semitic speaking peoples o Aksumites — 4th c. BC to 7th c. AD • Arabs, Old North Arabian speaking Bedouins o Gindibu's Arabs 9th c. BC o Lihyanites — 6th to 1st c. BC o Thamud people — 2nd to 5th c. AD o Ghassanids — 3rd to 7th c. AD o Nabataeans — adopted Arabic in the 4th century AD
4. Canaanites intermarried to many Israelites and other Semitic tribes.
5. Palestinians aren’t even 100% pure Arabs. They consider themselves Arab because they read and write Arabic. They live under the Arab league. Palestinians are mixed with many occupiers in Palestine over centuries. There are Arab Jews. Don’t tell me there is no such thing called Arab Jewish. There are Arab Jews tribes. Palestinians are the original inhabitants of Palestine.
6 My middle and last name are Hebrew names. My uncle told me his doctor took his DNA test and told him he is part Hebrew. That video I posted in other thread and articles that talk about 90% of Palestinians are descendant from Judeans. A lot of Palestinians have Persian names, some have Hebrew names (like my last name Kalil), and a lot of us have Greek or Italian last names. We have lots in common with Greeks, Jews, Italian and Turks through our dances, and our customs. We speak Palestinian dialect mixed with Aramaic different than other Arabic languages. Some Palestinians look like white Scandinavians while others look dark brown.
7. Of course Arab immigrated to Palestine way before the first Zionist colony in Palestine in 1878. Muslim Arab rules in Palestine, Philip the Arab was the first Christian emperor of Rome, Nabateans and the Ghassanids. The Canaanites were originally from Arabian Peninsula. You seriously need to read the Middle East history book. There were no European Jews that live there more than 3 thousand + years ago in Palestine.
8. If you look at the map there were no Greece, Turkey, Lebanon, and Romania etc. However, Palestine existed for more than hundreds of years a largely pastoral, a nevertheless socially, culturally, and politically before the Ottoman Empire. True, Palestine had been part of the Ottoman Empire until the end of World War I. Palestine was once a Christian country, then Muslim country, then go on and go on. Palestine became a predominately Arab and Islamic country by the end of the seventh century. Your first, second, and third maps show Palestina.
9. Tran-Jordan is different than Palestine. Tran-Jordan have their own government, culture, language and their own costumes. They are Hashemite. Palestinians are not Hashemite. And yes 50% of Jordanians are Palestinians, because they’re refugees from 1948 Palestine. The Zionist terrorist gangs forced them out. Lebanon and Syria both were under the French rule. Does that mean Syria was called Lebanon? Belad Al-Sham (COUNTRY OF GREATER SYRIA) they claims Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Palestine was one country and people were known as Syrians. That is another ideology like the Zionist claims Palestine is a Jewish homeland. Sham is for gulf Arab countries used to call them (Palestinian, Lebanese, Syrian, Jordanian, and Iraqis) as Shamis. Look up SSNP on wikipedia or Yahoo search. You’ll understand what I am talking about.
sxydrkhair saidNow Zionists in Israel are new GERMANS.
Yep, you are right... I used to live in Bethlehem 2 years and Zionists are new Nazis... I was in Gaza war last December and Gaza is the world's biggest Concentration Camp... Terrible!... I hope your family stays safe!
I don't have any relatives in Gaza... I do have relatives in the West Bank ;-) Thanks... I am sure my relatives are safe. I pray for them everyday.
Caesarea4 saidAh, the odious use of propaganda slogans and soundbites to make emotional points which cannot otherwise be made with facts and logic.
Ian> Zionists are new Nazis... Gaza is the world's biggest Concentration Camp
There is no correspondence between Gaza and nazi concentration (let alone) death camps. For starters, Israel provides basic necessities including power, food, water and medical supplies.
Smugglers (those not bringing in bombs and rockets) bring in luxury goods (and despite the wide-spread allegations of "poverty", people in Gaza are able to pay the high prices demanded for these luxury goods.
Indeed, a strange thing was observed when the Hamas mob tore down the wall separating Gaza from Egypt. People from Gaza went to Egyptian Rafah to buy luxury goods... while people in Egyptian Rafah crossed into Gaza to buy basic necessities.
Ian> Holocaust
You do realize that during the Holocaust, about 10,000 Jews (1/4 of them children) were methodically murdered every day for a handful of years, right?
It's simply hard to understand if Ian (and Samer's) statement is some bizarre form of Holocaust denial or simply a completely absurd and ridiculous juxtapositioning for cheap spam propaganda purposes.
Ian and I never said we are holocaust denial. He was posting that video to show how Jews and Palestinians both have similar holocaust. Gaza Masscare is a holocaust. The holocaust doesn't only represent only Jews people. Many people were killed during the WWII. Many Chinese were killed by evil Japanese soldiers. Stop with your hate and stop being a Jewish supremacist that think Jews are only victims in this world. Al Nakba means the catastrophe. The holocaust mean catastrophe.
Samer> Al Nakba means the catastrophe. The holocaust mean catastrophe.
And it was a catastrophe that Michigan's QB suffered a concussion at Iowa and the 2nd string QB threw an interception ending Michigan's chances of kicking a field goal as time expired to upset Iowa.
So just because we label 3 things as "catastophes" does that make them the same in your mind?
Samer> Gaza Masscare is a holocaust
There was no "massacre" or "holocaust" in Gaza. Just as there wasn't one in Jenin, either.
Again you are trying to link things by loaded words and slinging shallow soundbites and vacuous slogans?
Samer> Ian... was posting that video to show how Jews and Palestinians both have similar holocaust.
There is no comparison between the Jewish Holocaust (with 10,000 people methodically executed every day during 3 years of the "Final Solution", a plan to exterminate all Jews) and the "holocaust" in Gaza (with 1,200 dead in weeks of uring urban fighting, >90% of them males and a majority of them combatants. (This despite Israel's best efforts to avoid civilian casualties by dropping leaflettes and calling residents ahead of operations, despite the loss of the element of surprise. It was Hamas who chose to fight inside their own cities, using their own civilians as human shiels.)
I also don't recall Jews launching rockets into German cities. Do you?
1. Remember you claimed that the population of Jaffa was forced out? You linked to a propaganda web-site which proclaimed as much in bold text, yet down below a resident who was there told a much different story. His family was out shopping and upon returning home was surprised to find that their neighbors had chosen to evacuate (because the surrounding Arab states had declared war on Israel). No wonder that your propaganda pictures showing them getting on boats in Jaffa port didn't include any Jewish/Israeli soldiers "forcing" them to leave.
S> Palestineremembered.com is not a propaganda website. Most of their sources are Israeli historians, United Nations, British government etc.
Then why bother with that site rather than simply go back to the original sources?
The reason Samer bothered with that site is because it doesn't diligently present the information provided by the sources he mentions. It provides pictures without the correct context and it supports the false history that Samer pushes like a drug dealer.
2. Who could forget how you simultaneously provided contradicting sources regarding land ownership. One claimed that since Jews only owned 7% of the land, that meant that Arabs privately owned 93%. Yet at the same time, your other source showed that the majority of land was not privately owned (and when one works through the math - as I've done several time without any criticism or "correction" from you - rather than dishonest cookings such as your first source, we find out that resident Arabs only owned 3.3% of the area allocated to the Jewish state by the UN partition compromise).
S> In 1890 there were 25,000 Jews lived in Palestine. It is impossible that they own more than 7% of the land of historical Palestine.
A perfect example of a specious argument. Even if Samer's figures were correct (and they're not. In 1896 there were more than 28,000 Jews in Jerusalem alone), the second part does not follow. The size of the population tells us nothing about the percentage of land owned at that time - let alone 58 years later.
Indeed, consider that some have estimated the Arab population in western "Palestine" in the early to mid 19th century to be as low as 50,000 (De Haas). So that would mean that "it is impossible that they own more than 14% of the land"?
Let me work through the math again and let's see if Samer can finally respond:
The area allocated to Israel by the UN was 14.92 million dunams. Samer himself admits that by 1947 Jews owned 7% of the 26.3 million dunams of western Mandate Palestine, which is 1.84 million dunams. The Negev desert is 12.5 million dunams. Combined these account for 14.34 out of the 14.92 million dunams. Samer would have us believe that Arabs owned 93% of the land? Yet only 3.9% remains unaccounted for (14.34/14.92 = 96.1%). If we accept my figure of 3.3% Arab [private] ownership, that gives us a total of 99.4% (OK, I'll admit it, I've got a 0.6% error in my figures, which obviously have some rounding issues. Samer, though, is so far off - 90% - that it's not even funny and yet it's hard not to laugh - especially since he keeps spamming these outrageous figures).
3. Then there was your mish-mash about the origin of the Arabs of Eretz Yisrael (or "Palestine" by its Latin/European name). First you claimed that they descend from the Canaanites and Philistines. Yet those groups disappeared 1200 and 1500 years prior to the arrival of the Arabs in 638 CE and you were unable to provide any historic or archeological evidence to show the existence of such a population throughout those many centuries (i.e. the Assryrians, Babylonians, Persians, Macedonians, Romans and Byzantines hadn't encountered them, and there is no archeological footprint).
S> Canaanites were originally from Arabian Peninsula and later migrated to Palestine (Canaan.)
Is that your latest delusion?! It's not that the Arabs of Palestine originated from the Canaanites... but that the Canaanites originated from the Arabs?
Not only isn't there data to support this, but there's a lot of data that counters it: the Caananites practiced an agriculturally based religion - not something that would have originated in the deserts of Arabia. Many of the coastal tribes were considered "sea peoples" owing to their origin (they came not from the deserts of Arabia but from the Mediterranean Sea). Most of the Canaanites lived in the coastal plane and in the northern and Jordan River valleys. Only later do we have the arrival of the Nabatians in the south who may have been Arabs or more closely related to them.
4. Worse yet you argued that they were a Semitic people [sic], but the Canaanites and the Philistines where Hamitic (according to the 3,000 year old Biblical anthropology which has nothing to do with real anthropology).
S> Canaanites intermarried to many Israelites and other Semitic tribes.
That's a non-sequitur, so let's first dispatch of it: the Israelites were primarily Canaanites who had coalesced into the Israelite confederacy in the 13th century BCE. By the 9th century they had assimilated into what had become the dominant culture and disappeared as a separate group.
Why do you continue to flip-flop between definitions of "Semitic" people/tribes?
There are two definitions.
A. In the Bible, there is an anthropology of sorts, based lines of descent from Noah. The children of his son Shem are called "Semites". Neither the Canaanites or the Philistines are included, they allegedly descended from one of Noah's other sons, Ham (thus they are Hammitic).
B. In modern usage, languages - not people - are Semitic.
For the last year or two I have pointed out that roughly half of Ethiopians speak a Semitic language and asked you if this makes Ethiopians a "Semitic people". Your silence makes you look like a deer caught in headlights.
5. Discredited, you then began to argue that the Arabs descend from Jews who converted to either Christianity or Islam. There is no historical record of any such mass conversions and the source you provided actually said the exact opposite: that there was no scientific evidence for this. At that point you also began trying to appropriate Jewish history as your own, ridiculously claiming places such as Meggido, Massada and Tzippori.
S> Palestinians aren’t even 100% pure Arabs. They consider themselves Arab because they read and write Arabic. They live under the Arab league. Palestinians are mixed with many occupiers in Palestine over centuries.
Right, but most of them came in recent centuries. Very few predate the Mamluk "slash and burn" victory over the Crusaders (they destroyed the coastal cities and salted the fields in an effort to dissuade the Crusaders from coming back).
S> There are Arab Jews. Don’t tell me there is no such thing called Arab Jewish. There are Arab Jews tribes.
There WERE Arab tribes, in Arabia, which adopted Judaism. They are long gone and of no known relationship to the "Palestinian Arabs".
S> Palestinians are the original inhabitants of Palestine.
This argument can only be described as insane. One second Samer is claiming, absent any supportive evidence and despite plenty of evidence to the contrary, that the Palestinian Arabs descend from the Jews (we know they can't descend from the Canaanites or the Philistines because these groups disappeared 1200-1500 years prior to the first emergence of the Arabs in Eretz Yisrael following the Arab invasion/conquest of 638 CE). Yet the next second he's claiming, again absent any evidence and despite plenty of counter-evidence, that these mythical "Palestinians" are the "original inhabitants" - evidently predating the Jews from which he just claimed they descend?
Once again Samer's methodology is exposed. Rather than follow the scientific method and reason, he attempts to manipulate "facts" to conform to his desired notions, even stooping to argue from contradicting premises. Anything to rationalize what he wants to believe - uber alles.
6. To this day you cling to that false history, despite not only the clear trail of Arab migration into Eretz Yisrael over the last few centuries (very few Arab families predate the Mamluk devastation), but also in the face of genetic DNA evidence which shows a "cousin" relationship (dating back 10,000 years, well before the mythical Abraham) rather than a "descendant" relationship.
S> My middle and last name are Hebrew names.
Many Muslims and Christians, having no relation to Jews or Israel, have Hebrew names, too.
S> some have Hebrew names (like my last name Kalil)
Except that Kalil is not Hebrew. It is Arabic for "friend". Which in Hebrew is "Chaver". (Some may recall Clinton's farewell to Rabin, "Shalom chaver".)
S> A lot of Palestinians have Persian names
So that some (allegedly) have Hebrew names was supposedly proof of descent from Jews, then what do Persian (or other) names prove?!
S> My uncle told me his doctor took his DNA test and told him he is part Hebrew.
FAIL. DNA test don't work that way. There are no genes which are exclusive to Jews/Hebrews. So either your uncle lied to you or you are lying to us.
Geneticists don't make such conclusions about individuals (which in your best case in anecdotal evidence) but about groups of people. In the case of Palestinian Arabs (as a group!), the data shows common origin 10,000 years ago, not that these Arabs descend from the native and indigenous Jews (or Canaanites, not even the Philistines).
S> That video I posted in other thread and articles that talk about 90% of Palestinians are descendant from Judeans.
It was a propaganda video. Try finding a scientific source that supports this and then come back to us.
S> We speak Palestinian dialect mixed with Aramaic different than other Arabic languages.
There is no single "Palestinian dialect" but several "sub-dialects" that vary as much from each other as they do with neighboring regions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Arabic || There are noticeable differences between Palestinian Arabic and other forms of Levantine Arabic such as Syrian Arabic and Lebanese Arabic. However, none of these is invariable, given the differences of dialect within Palestinian Arabic itself. || Palestinian urban dialects more closely resemble northern Levantine Arabic dialects, that is, the spoken forms of Arabic of Syria and Lebanon. || Palestinian Arabic also shares some features with Egyptian, distinguishing it from the northern Levantine dialects
Which is exactly what one would expect given that Arabs flowed into Eretz Yisrael from the surrounding areas.
7. Indeed, you concede that the Arabs of Palestine are pretty much a mishmash of people who migrated into this land, which is quite different from descending from the native and indigenous Jews. That actually is very close to the truth, with most of them arriving in recent centuries (with rare yet large waves of immigration in the 16th century, around 1840 from Egypt with Muhammad Ali, and between the world wars in the 20th century, ironically drawn by British and Jewish development.
S> 7. Of course Arab immigrated to Palestine
QED.
S> way before the first Zionist colony in Palestine in 1878.
So if Arabs immigrate to Eretz Yisrael, they are "indigenous" and "natives". But if Jews immigrate to Eretz Yisrael, they are "colonists"?
At best, this is racist xenophobia.
And who said that the first Zionist "colony" in Eretz Yisrael (there was no "Palestine" then) was in 1878 or European? When Yemenite Jews returned in the 1840s, why doesn't that count?
The fact of the matter is that Jews have been living on this land, continuously, for at least 3300 years.
8. Perhaps worst of all were your claims that an Arab Palestine existed prior to WW I. Yet for centuries (I provided 3 maps about 100 years apart) the area was depicted as the Jewish homeland, broken down into the Jewish tribal areas, and co-labeled "Judea & Israel". You were never able to provide us with any historical map showing an Arab Palestine (flailingly you provided a map of the Ottoman Empire made after WW I which retroactively showed Palestine). It's now been a year, still can't find an historical map from the 12th-19th centuries showing an "Arab Palestine"?
S> If you look at the map there were no Greece, Turkey, Lebanon, and Romania etc.
Wow. So first you argue that a place existed and you can show us maps of it, and when you can't, you come up with a lame argument?
S> Your first, second, and third maps show Palestina.
Right, but they equate it with Judea & Israel, subdivided into the Jewish tribal areas, not any existing Arab country as you falsely claimed existed at this time. Note further that these maps show "Palestina" to span both banks of the Jordan river.
S> Palestine existed for more than hundreds of years a largely pastoral, a nevertheless socially, culturally, and politically before the Ottoman Empire.
The land obviously existed, but the designation "Palestine" was foreign. The Arabs living there didn't call it that and neither did the Ottoman occupiers.
Your arguments are anachronistic and are meant to deceive people into believing in a history that never existed.
As for culture, you yourself admit that it was Arab. Obviously there were differences from region to region (depending on the origin of each group), but like with the Arabic language, the difference and similarities within the region were similar to those outside of it.
Culturally and linguistically, an Arab in Acre had more in common with an Arab in Beirut (Lebanon) than in Jericho. And an Arab in Jericho was closer to one in Amman (Trans/Jordan) than one in Gaza. And the Arab in Gaza was more similar to an Arab in El Arish (Egypt) than to that first Arab up north in Akko.
S> Palestine became a predominately Arab and Islamic country by the end of the seventh century.
We have no record of mass conversions in the 7th century, and yet you admit that in just half a century there was such a dramatic change in the nature of the population? This is a very quick change indicative of invasion and colonization, not of gradual assimilation or adoption of another culture (which would take numerous generations).
9. Just as bad, Samer denied that "Historic Palestine" existed on both banks of the Jordan River (i.e. including Israel, the disputed territories, and Trans/Jordan). Never mind that these territories were under the same League of Nations Mandate, the same High Commissioner, used the same currency and stamps and that Arabs (until 1939) could migrate from eastern Trans-Jordanian Mandate Palestine to western Cis-Jordanian Mandate Palestine without even being counted as immigrants. Never mind that after Trans-Jordan invaded and seized Judea & Samaria in 1948, it "united" them as its so-called "West Bank" and renamed itself as simply "Jordan" (since it was no longer only Trans-Jordanian Palestine). Never mind that in the early 1970s, Yasser Arafat and his thugs attempted to assassinate the Jordanian King and take over the country for themselves.
S> Tran-Jordan is different than Palestine. Tran-Jordan have their own government, culture, language and their own costumes. They are Hashemite.
All of which is post-WW I and post-1946 when Trans-Jordanian Palestine gained independence (later renaming itself simply as Jordan once it annexed the so-called "West Bank").
What was Trans-Jordan prior to WW I?! Did no one live there that you now claim that the populace is either Hashemite or Arabs from west of the Jordan river?
How come it appears in maps of (Jewish) Palestine from the mid 17th, 18th and 19th century?
S> Lebanon and Syria both were under the French rule. Does that mean Syria was called Lebanon?
Lebanon was first carved out of Syria by the Ottomans following massacres of scores of thousands of Christians by Muslims around 1860. Just as Trans-Jordan was carved out of "Palestine" in 1923. Sorry, but your example works against you.
10. But wait, there's more. Samer falsely claimed that "Urdunn" (Jordan) and "Filastin" (the Arabic mis-pronunciation of "Palestine" - sxydrkhair has yet to explain why alleged Jewish/Christian converts to Islam suddenly lost the ability to pronounce the "P" consonant which doesn't exist in Arabic) were always two separate regions during the time of the Arab empires after the invasion and conquest of the Land of Israel in 638 CE. Unfortunately, he's wrong on the double. Both were a "Jund" - military district - of the empire then based in Damascus/Syria. And neither resembled the 1923 partition (which saw the 80% of eastern Palestine given exclusively to Arabs, no Jews allowed, with the 20% of western Palestine reserved for the Jewish homeland). If we go back in history 950-1400 years, Urdunn and Filastin spanned both banks of the Jordan River. Urdunn comprised the northern half of Israel and Jordan and extended into Lebanon while Filastin comprised the southern halves of Israel and Jordan and extended into Sinai.
S> ?
Looks like Samer finally ran out of lies and can't even begin to explain this error.
sxydrkhair, don't waste your time with that phony. he doesn't make any sense. he's a low-life nakba denier and racist. he has no morals or a conscience. he think palestinians are bad guys, while he see Israelis are truly innocents. what a phony. that's right he doesn't even know palestinian history.
1. jews were not the majority before the state was established.
2. he's nakba denial again. I have nothing more to say about that, except that he is no different from a holocaust denier, remember that.
3. you do not “seek to annihilate the Jewish state”, meaning the people. you do seek to annihilate the Israeli government and its oppressive, racist, colonial ideology. caesarea4 ignore that.
heck, why can't he write a freaking book!? call it Israeli's new nazi propaganda against the palestinians published by caesarea4. lol
Yeah I notice that... He keep on repeating nonsense over and over again. Only way to end this thread is to pretend that he is right. Just to make him look good. Seriously, if you straight him out and telling him all the facts or post a source of Israeli historian or Jewish historian, then he will continue repeating same crap and telling more lies. He is in denial.
Why the hell he have to post so long? Like he think I have time to go over that and answer all his stupid questions?
This coming from the person who posted in this thread minutes after joining RJ, and in the few days since has only posted to this thread?
Ian> he's a low-life nakba denier and racist. he has no morals or a conscience.
Yawn. What boring personal attacks which of course are not substantiated in any way shape or form.
Ian> he doesn't even know palestinian history.
What "palestinian history"?! Samer himself has provided us with Jewish history (e.g. Megiddo, Massada, Tzippori) as "Palestinian history") since he was unable to provide us with any Palestinian/Arab history prior to 638 CE - when the Arabs invaded and colonized Eretz Yisrael.
As stated before, if it were true that I don't know what I'm talking about, then it would be easy for Samer & Ian to refute it. Instead they are relegated to making personal attacks and clowns of themselves.
Samer> Why the hell he have to post so long? Like he think I have time
You appear to have endless time to post nonsense and propaganda links, but no time to defend them?! Clearly it is not time which you lack but facts, data and counter-arguments that actually support what you say.
But fine, let's assume it is an issue of time and let's take the points one at a time:
1. Remember you claimed that the population of Jaffa was forced out? You linked to a propaganda web-site which proclaimed as much in bold text, yet down below a resident who was there told a much different story. His family was out shopping and upon returning home was surprised to find that their neighbors had chosen to evacuate (because the surrounding Arab states had declared war on Israel). No wonder that your propaganda pictures showing them getting on boats in Jaffa port didn't include any Jewish/Israeli soldiers "forcing" them to leave.
S> Palestineremembered.com is not a propaganda website. Most of their sources are Israeli historians, United Nations, British government etc.
Then why bother with that site rather than simply go back to the original sources?
The reason Samer bothered with that site is because it doesn't present the information provided by the sources he mentions. It provides pictures without the correct context and it supports the false history that Samer pushes like a drug dealer.
Samer, while you claim that Jews "forced out" the residents of Jaffa after the Arabs violently rejected the UN partition compromise and began their war in 1947, why is it that there are no Jewish or Israeli soldiers seen in your propaganda pictures of the Arabs fleeing? Because, as the resident of Jaffa related on your propaganda source, they fled of their own volition.
How else can you explain that 1/4 of the population fled before the fighting began?
How do you explain that by the time Israel had gained control of Jaffa, only 5% of the population remained - and they were NOT "forced out"? Today those 5% and their descendents are full citizens of Israel with equal protection under the law.
Conclusion: Samer's accusation that Israel "ethnically cleansed" Jaffa is a propaganda lie for the cause.
Here we go again... Poor Palestinian Muslim family in East Jerusalem (West Bank) ethnic cleansing yesterday. Now they have to live outside on the street. Caesarea said there was no such thing "ethnic cleansing." This what the Zionist terrorist gangs did pre-1948 steal Palestinian homes inside Israel. Many Palestinians became refugees.
Christian in Bethlehem against Israeli settlements:
So-called Zionists' "peace." That is not even a peace solution if they want two state solution. They need to stop building more illegal Israeli settlements in the Palestinian territories. Yasser Arafat made an agreement with Yitzhak Rabin's Oslo Accords. That Palestinians recognize Israel right to exist and Israeli government (suppose to, which they did not) recognize Palestinian territories. (Just like C4 and his supporters). Have you guys read famous Zionists' racist quotes? You should check it out on google search. C4 need to stop lying.
Yup. Once again, unable to defend or support his previous propaganda lies for the cause, Samer attempts to divert by posting new lies:
S> Poor Palestinian Muslim family in East Jerusalem (West Bank) ethnic cleansing yesterday.
The eviction (with a court order) of a family that was squatting in a home they didn't own isn't "ethnic cleansing". Samer only exposes how he doesn't hesitate to us propaganda slogans and soundbites.
What's further interesting is the name of the family: "Al Kurd", indicating Kurdish origin.
Samer, we were discussing your false claim that Jews/Israel "ethnically cleansed" Jaffa. You have time and again provided a propaganda picture showing people getting in boats, but missing from the picture is the presence of Jewish/Israeli soldiers forcing out these people. To the contrary, a "survivor" account on the same site tells that the abandonment of the city caught his family by surprise. People had decided to leave, thinking that 2 weeks later - after the Arab armies that were threatening to invade had "thrown the Jews into the sea" - they would be back.
Indeed, 25% of the population fled even before the fighting began and a whopping 95% of the people of Jaffa fled before the fighting ended - before Jewish/Israeli forces had an opportunity to "expel" them.
The 5% who didn't choose to flee were not ethnically cleansed. To the contrary, they and their descendants became full citizens of Israel, with equal protection under the law.
The worst part about spam propagandists like Samer is that it's only a matter of time before he repeats his soundbite/slogan about Jaffa. Then again, given that we just saw him abuse "ethnic cleansing" again with regards to current events, maybe his claim that there was "ethnic cleansing" in Jaffa really means that one family was evicted due to a court order....
It's clear that Samer is a victim of his own propaganda sources, but at least it doesn't look like he's fooling anyone else.
Last chance, Samer. Do you wish to comment about point #1 or should we move to #2?
Where do you get these false numbers "25% of the population fled even before the fighting began and a whopping 95% of the people of Jaffa fled before the fighting ended" Wow, are you making this up?
Now you calling me propagandist after showing you all the Israeli-Jewish historian sources and well educated Al Jazeera news? Look up google search "Jaffa Ethnic cleansing" You'll see all the lists. Don't tell me there is no such thing ethnic cleansing happen before Israel became a country.
Pre-1948 "90 percent of the Palestinians of Jaffa destroyed one of the region’s most economically thriving and developed urban societies." - source: wrmea.com
this is a fact and well educated website. You need to wake up and realize that Zionist did in the past was WRONG. And they are still WRONG building more settlements in the Palestinian territories. Now Abbas doesn't want to be in the election because Israel and the United States aren't taking this serious about so-called "Israel peace plan." http://www.palestineremembered.com/Jaffa/Jaffa/Story12399.html True story about Jaffa pre-1948.
Answer these 10 questions... Don't post me a link from other threads. Use your two or three sentences each questions below.
1. You believe Palestinians have right to return? 2. Palestinian people exist? 3. Was there a land called Palestine? 4. Is there Occupation? If yes, you believe Israel's occupation is illegal under international law? 5. Is there Israeli apartheid? 6. You think Israeli settlements are legal? 7. Is there Al Nakba? 8. You claimed that Palestine was “a land without a people for a people without land”? 9. You believe Gaza was under the most brutal, inhumane, genocidal siege? 10. You believe the Israeli prime ministers of the past were only interested in a peaceful co-existence with their Arab neighbors? Stealing water and land from their Arab neighbors like Syria and Lebanon.
It's funny how, again, Samer can't adequately address point #1. When faced with a long list, he cops out claiming he doesn't have time to address it. When faced with just one point, he repeatedly avoids it and raises an endless number of new points. Hmmmm; why would that be?!
1A. Missing from Samer's propaganda picture is the presence of Jewish/Israeli soldiers forcing out these people
S> [silence]
1B. A "survivor" account on the same site tells that the abandonment of the city caught his family by surprise. People had decided to leave, thinking that 2 weeks later - after the Arab armies that were threatening to invade had "thrown the Jews into the sea" - they would be back.
S> [avoided]
1C. 25% of the population fled even before the fighting began and a whopping 95% of the people of Jaffa fled before the fighting ended - before Jewish/Israeli forces had an opportunity to "expel" them.
S> Where do you get these false numbers... are you making this up?
I don't need to use your tricks (simply making up lies, or claiming that the eviction of one family of squatters with a court order constitutes "ethnic cleansing"), but I did use one of your sources. Benny Morris provides population figures in "'The Birth of the Palestinian refugee problem, 1947-1949", pp. 95-101.
I'm guessing we're now going to get a round of the "source game", with Samer frantically trying to impeach his own source (which was only useful for him for selective out-of-context quotes.)
1D. The 5% who didn't choose to flee were not ethnically cleansed. To the contrary, they and their descendants today are full citizens of Israel, with equal protection under the law.
S> [nada]
It's clear that Samer is a victim of his own propaganda sources; was anyone else fooled by him or his propaganda sources on this point?
sxydrkhair saidAnswer these 10 questions... Don't post me a link from other threads. Use your two or three sentences each questions below.
1. You believe Palestinians have right to return? [nada] 2. Palestinian people exist? [nada] 3. Was there a land called Palestine? [nada] 4. Is there Occupation? If yes, you believe Israel's occupation is illegal under international law? [nada] 5. Is there Israeli apartheid? [nada] 6. You think Israeli settlements are legal? [nada] 7. Is there Al Nakba? [nada] 8. You claimed that Palestine was “a land without a people for a people without land”? [nada] 9. You believe Gaza was under the most brutal, inhumane, genocidal siege? [nada] 10. You believe the Israeli prime ministers of the past were only interested in a peaceful co-existence with their Arab neighbors? Stealing water and land from their Arab neighbors like Syria and Lebanon. [nada]
I thought you were short on time, that's why you couldn't address the 10 pionts we already had on the table. Now you want to add 10 more points? Or is this just a diversion to avoid the first 10?
1. You believe Palestinians have right to return?
There is no such thing as a "right of return".
2. Palestinian people exist?
Today there is such a group, but 150 years ago there was not. The ethnogenesis of this group as a unit came in the middle of the 20th century. (Recall that the UN definition of an Arab refugee was any Arab who had resided in Mandate Palestine for a minimum of a mere 2 years - argued down from 10 by the Arab League so that scores of thousands of recent arrivals would qualify for international assistance.)
3. Was there a land called Palestine?
There was never an Arab state known as "Palestine".
There was a military district - of an Arab empire based in Syria 1,000 years ago - known as "Filastin", but it does not correspond to what you today claim is "Palestine". It only included the southern half of Israel, Judea & Samarea - as well as the southern half of Trans/Jordan. The military district of Urdunn (which Samer falsely claims is the basis of Trans-Jordan) comprised the northern half of the above territories.
Again, note the north/south division rather than the current east/west division. Note that both Filastin and Urdunn spanned both sides of the Jordan River. (Odd, isn't it, that Samer claims "Palestine" is only east of the river, eh?)
In recent centuries, "Palestine" was the Latin/European name for Eretz Yisrael, the Jewish homeland. Maps equated it with Judea & Israel and showed it comprising of the Jewiish tribal areas (on both sides of the Jordan River).
There was no division within the Ottoman Empire (which ruled this region for 400 years prior to WW I) known as "Palestine", leading the Arabs to deny its existence in the first half of the 20th century.
4. Is there Occupation? If yes, you believe Israel's occupation is illegal under international law?
Under Article 2 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, only the territory of a "high contracting party" (a State) can be considered occupied. Thus after 1967, Gaza was considered occupied EGYPTIAN territory and Judea & Samarea were considered occupied JORDANIAN territory. Recall that no one considered Egypt or Jordan to be occupiers between 1948-1967.
By the 1980s, Egypt and Jordan had rescinded their claims to these lands - which they had illegally conquered through aggressive use of force in 1948.
The status of the territories is "disputed", not "occupied". Absent a permanent border, the latter term is completely nonsensical (useful only as an emotional slogan/soundbite for propaganda purposes). Are we really to believe that areas that will become part of Israel in a final settlement are "Israeli occupied... Israel"?
The Israeli administration of the disputed territories, gained in a defensive war in 1967, is completely legal. The binding UN resolution on this issue, UNSCR 242, does NOT require an immediate, unilateral or full Israeli withdrawal. It allows Israel to administer the territories until a final agreement is reached based on the "land for peace" formula (which was unfortunately rejected by most Arab parties for decades).
5. Is there Israeli apartheid?
Even Jimmy Carter admits there is no apartheid in Israel (despite the title of his book - to drive sales). This is just another one of those emotional soundbite/slogans that Samer loves to regurgitate and by which he sheds more heat than light.
6. You think Israeli settlements are legal?
Jews were driven off their land by invading Arab armies in 1948. How can you claim that returning to them is illegal?
7. Is there Al Nakba?
It was a catastrophe for the Arabs that they rejected compromise after compromise, opting for war after war and losing war after war. Al Nakba was self inflicted.
8. You claimed that Palestine was “a land without a people for a people without land”?
There was no "Palestine" and no "Palestinians" in the late 19th century.
Do you understand the difference between "a land without A people" and "a land without people"?!
Of course, there weren't all that many people, either.
9. You believe Gaza was under the most brutal, inhumane, genocidal siege?
This question shows that you are completely delusional and have no concept of history.
Please show me any other siege in history where an army allowed food, water, medicine and fuel (among other things) to enter the area under siege.
And really, "genocidal"? Do you really think you are fooling anyone with these emotional propaganda slogans/soundbites?
10. You believe the Israeli prime ministers of the past were only interested in a peaceful co-existence with their Arab neighbors? Stealing water and land from their Arab neighbors like Syria and Lebanon.
No water was "stolen". No land was "stolen".
But much of this was already under discussion in the previous points which you ignored. So let's go back to those and go through them one by one. Then, if even still necessary, we can address your points one by one.
1A. Missing from Samer's propaganda picture is the presence of Jewish/Israeli soldiers forcing out these people
S> [silence, again]
1B. A "survivor" account on the same site tells that the abandonment of the city caught his family by surprise. People had decided to leave, thinking that 2 weeks later - after the Arab armies that were threatening to invade had "thrown the Jews into the sea" - they would be back.
S> [avoided, again]
1C. 25% of the population fled even before the fighting began and a whopping 95% of the people of Jaffa fled before the fighting ended - before Jewish/Israeli forces had an opportunity to "expel" them.
I used one of your sources. Benny Morris provides population figures in "'The Birth of the Palestinian refugee problem, 1947-1949", pp. 95-101.
Samer> give me a link
I'm not surprised you don't have (and never actually read) the book.
Quoting from it:
|| About 50,000-60,000 of its pre-war population of 70,000-80,000 was in situ at the start of the final battle
Which is to say that 20,000 had already fled. I used the lower 25% figure but could have also used 28.6%.
|| Through the war the Haganah believed that there was no need to frontally assault Jaffa. While firing from it occasionally disturbed Tel Aviv... it was felt that the inhabitants' sense of isolation and the Haganah siege would eventually bring the town to its knees. ...The idea was blockade and military quarantine rather than conquest and occupation. The Haganah planners failed completely to anticipate, let alone plan for, the exodus of the population of Jaffa.
|| According to British observers, one of the major causses of the mass exodus from Jaffa, as from Haifa and Tiberias, was the flight of the city leaders before and during the battle.
|| The Haganah took Yazur, Salama, Al Kheiriya and Saqiya - all without a fight. The inhabitants began fleeing in panic the moment the Haganah columns approached.... the fall of these satellite villages further undermined the morale of the 15,000-25,000 inhabitants still left in Jaffa.
So we see that another 35,000, representing 44-50% of the population, had fled Jaffa.
|| The remaining Jaffa municipal leaders... asked the British commanders to arrange the evacuation of some of the city's remaining Arabs "by sea... to Beirut."
That is the scene in Samer's propaganda source's picture, dishonestly titled to make it appear that these people who asked to be evacuated under British protection were being "ethnically cleansed" or "forced out" by Jewish/Israeli forces.
Here's something else that Samer and his propaganda sources won't tell you:
|| Nimr al Khatib described the last days of Arab Jaffa thus: the ALA contingent, headed by Michel al Issa... "acted as if the town was theirs, and began to rob people and loot their houses. People's lives became worthless and women's honour was defiled. This prompted many inhabitants to leave under the protection of the British tanks."
Was this ALA a group of Jewish terrorists? Nope. It was the Arab Liberation Army, which had come to "throw the Jews into the esa".
But wait, there's more!
|| Cunningham reported that "municipal services have completely broken down and remnants of the [Arab] Liberation Army are looting. Nearly all councillors and members of National Committee have fled." ...Those remaining had apparently asked that the Jews be allowed to take over and restore law and order. ..The Jaffa Arab Emergency Committee, representing the 4,000-5,000 remaining inhabitants, signed a formal surrender agreement with the Haganah. On 18 May Ben-Gurion visited the conquered city for the first time and commented: "I couldn't understand: Why did the inhabitants of Jaffa leave?"
To help Samer with the math, by the time Haganah entered Jaffa only 4,000-5,000 Arabs remained (out of the original 70,000-80,000) - that's between 5-7% of the population. Which is to say that 93-95% of the population fled even before the Haganah was in a position to force anyone out (which it didn't).
Indeed, we see the added twist that those residents wanted Haganah to restore order due to the Arab Liberation's Army's misconduct.
1D. The 5% who didn't choose to flee were not ethnically cleansed. To the contrary, they and their descendants today are full citizens of Israel, with equal protection under the law.
You haven't read all of his book of Benny Morris? That is not the whole book he was talking about. Oh there was a war crime in Jaffa and ethnic cleansing. I am sure there are minority that fled their homes because of the war. But many where forced to leave by the Zionist terrorist gangs. One of the Zionist leadership’s main goal in the 1948 war was the expulsion of the Palestinian population from Jaffa in order to make a new "Jewish largest city" so-called "Tel Aviv-Yafo." Benny Morris said that in his book. Also another Israeli historian Ilan Pappe say "Jaffa were literally pushed into the sea to board fishing boats destined for Gaza as Zionist troops shot over their heads to hasten their expulsion”.
(ALA) Arab Liberation Army was a very small army of volunteers around 6,000. Zionist terrorist Menachen Begin and their terrorist groups like Haganah, Irgun and Lehi etc... (ALA) Arab Liberation Army aren't terrorists. They were volunteers trying to stop the Zionist terrorists against the Palestinians people pre-1948. Palestinians never force Jews in Israel into the sea. Give me a source that ever happen in Israel.
The Irgun attacked in the Wadi Rushmiya neighborhood in Haifa and Abu Kabir in Jaffa. On December 29 Irgun arrived by boat to the Jaffa shore and a gunfight between them and Palestinians. On January 1, 1948 the Irgun attacked again in Jaffa, they were entering the city dressed as British. On 5 January 1948 the Irgun blow up a "lorry bomb" outside Jaffa's Ottoman built Town Hall and killing few people. Don't tell me Irgun did not ethnic cleansing the Palestinians in Jaffa. Irgun forced Arab and British resistance out of Jaffa.
That was before Israel became a country. Menachem Begin, appeared publicly for the first time. In a brief speech, he said: Soldiers of the Irgun! We are going to conquer Jaffa. (mainly Palestinian city) We are setting out on one of the decisive battles in the struggle for Israel's independence (notice Israel wasn't a country that time.) source: etzel.org.il
Samer> Oh there was a war crime in Jaffa and ethnic cleansing. I am sure there are minority that fled their homes because of the war. But many where forced to leave by the Zionist terrorist gangs.
Stop inventing crap and pushing these lies.
Your own source, Benny Morris, says that 95% fled before and that the last 5% not only stayed but requested that the Haganah restore order.
Samer> One of the Zionist leadership’s main goal in the 1948 war was the expulsion of the Palestinian population from Jaffa in order to make a new "Jewish largest city" so-called "Tel Aviv-Yafo."
You are wrong on both the specifics and the generalities.
By 1948, the population of Tel Aviv alone was 230,000 - roughly 3x the 70,000-80,000 in Jaffa before the Arabs started fleeing.
Samer> Ilan Pappe say "Jaffa were literally pushed into the sea to board fishing boats destined for Gaza as Zionist troops shot over their heads to hasten their expulsion”.
If the quote is accurate, then it disqualifies Pappe as a reliable source and reveals how he is prone to hyperbole rather than fact. At the time the Arabs of Jaffa asked the British to take them to Beirut (not "pushed out"), there were British tanks in the city and planes overhead and no shots were being fired.
Samer> (ALA) Arab Liberation Army was a very small army of volunteers around 6,000. Zionist terrorist Menachen Begin and their terrorist groups like Haganah, Irgun and Lehi etc... (ALA) Arab Liberation Army aren't terrorists.
The fact of the matter is that the ALA was terrorizing the Arab people of Jaffa (Samer doesn't care?!) so much that they turned to the Haganah for relief! Yet in Samer's upside-down propaganda world, the ALA were saintly "volunteers" and the Haganah were "terrorists"?!
Samer> Palestinians never force Jews in Israel into the sea. Give me a source that ever happen in Israel.
That they failed to do so doesn't mean they didn't threaten and try to. To quote the Arab League Secretary, General Abdul Razek Azzam Pasha:
|| a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades.
Samer> On December 29 Irgun arrived by boat to the Jaffa shore and a gunfight between them and Palestinians....
Hilarious. Samer is plagiarizing Wikipedia (which he denigrates as a source when it is inconvenient), and of course selectively cherry-picking sentences out of context. That paragraph before states:
|| The Irgun also began carrying out reprisal missions, as it had under David Raziel's command. At the same time though, it published announcements calling on the Arabs to lay down their weapons and maintain a ceasefire:
|| The National Military Organization has warned you, if the murderous attacks on Jewish civilians shall continue, its soldiers will penetrate your centers of activity and plague you. You have not heeded the warning. You continued to harm our brothers and murder them in wild cruelty. Therefore soldiers of the National Military Organization will go on the attack, as we have warned you. ...However even in these frenzied time, when Arab and Jewish blood is spilled at the British enslaver, we hereby call upon you... to stop the attacks and create peace between us. We do not want a war with you. We are certain that neither do you want a war with us...
Are we really to believe that 95% of the residents of Jaffa fled because, months earlier, the Irgun carried out a reprisal attack and engaged Arab terrorists in Jaffa in a "gunfight"?!
Samer> Don't tell me Irgun did not ethnic cleansing the Palestinians in Jaffa. Irgun forced Arab and British resistance out of Jaffa.
Samer, do you really not understand what "ethnic cleansing" means? It seems like you are paid every time you use this soundbite, no matter how inappropriately.
Let me give you an example. Judea, Samaria and Gaza were ethnically cleansed of Jews during the Arab invasion of 1948. Not a single Jew was left alive in those territories. That's ethnic cleansing.
The eviction, under court order, of one family squatting on land they didn't own is not "ethnic cleansing".
A "gunfight" on the shores of Jaffa, even if it were not a reprisal raid (which it was) is not "ethnic cleansing".
Of course, the claim that Irgun drove the British (deployed with tanks and fighter planes) out of Jaffa is as delusional as claiming that Irgun forced Arabs out.
Samer> Menachem Begin... said: "Soldiers of the Irgun! We are going to conquer Jaffa. (mainly Palestinian city)"
Why are you, again, selectively quoting out of context? There is no call for ethnc cleansing, to the contrary:
|| Spare women and children. Spare the life of anyone who raises his hands in surrender. He is your captive. Do not harm him...
Why did you leave this out? Still trying to mislead people with your unabashed propaganda lies?
So let's get back to the points:
1A. Missing from Samer's propaganda picture is the presence of Jewish/Israeli soldiers forcing out these people
We now know that the Arab residents requested that the British evacuate them, by sea, to Beirut. They were not "forced out" and no Jewish/Israeli soldiers were present - despite the false titles on pictures at Samer's propaganda sites.
1B. A "survivor" account on the same site tells that the abandonment of the city caught his family by surprise. People had decided to leave, thinking that 2 weeks later - after the Arab armies that were threatening to invade had "thrown the Jews into the sea" - they would be back.
1C. 25% of the population fled even before the fighting began and a whopping 95% of the people of Jaffa fled before the fighting ended - before Jewish/Israeli forces had an opportunity to "expel" them.
We have learned that the remaining 5% wanted Haganah to enter Jaffa and restore order after being terrorized by the "Arab Liberation Army".
1D. The 5% who didn't choose to flee were not ethnically cleansed. To the contrary, they and their descendants today are full citizens of Israel, with equal protection under the law.
C4: There is no such thing as a "right of return".
SDH: Yes there is “right of return.” Israeli government refused the “right of return.” UN General Assembly Resolution 194 passed on 11 December 1948 which provided (Article 11): “Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible.” (You believe there is no “RIGHT OF RETURN)
C4: Today there is such a group, but 150 years ago there was not. The ethnogenesis of this group as a unit came in the middle of the 20th century. (Recall that the UN definition of an Arab refugee was any Arab who had resided in Mandate Palestine for a minimum of a mere 2 years - argued down from 10 by the Arab League so that scores of thousands of recent arrivals would qualify for international assistance.)
SDH: You are right we both agree on that one. Just like there was no Italian (which they were Romans) there was no Greeks (they were Philistine, Doric, Aegean, and Ionic) there was no Syrian (they were Aramaeans) there was no Lebanese (they were Phoenicians) there was no Americans (they were Native American Indians and other races British, French, Black and Asian etc.) You get my point?
C4: There was never an Arab state known as "Palestine".
SDH: I never said Palestine was a country. I said the land was called Palestine. Yes the land was called Palestine. According to IfAmericanKnew.Org “How long has Palestine been a specifically Arab country?”
“Palestine became a predominately Arab and Islamic country by the end of the seventh century. Almost immediately thereafter its boundaries and its characteristics — including its name in Arabic, Filastin — became known to the entire Islamic world, as much for its fertility and beauty as for its religious significance...In 1516, Palestine became a province of the Ottoman Empire, but this made it no less fertile, no less Arab or Islamic...Sixty percent of the population was in agriculture; the balance was divided between townspeople and a relatively small nomadic group. All these people believed themselves to belong in a land called Palestine, despite their feelings that they were also members of a large Arab nation...Despite the steady arrival in Palestine of Jewish colonists after 1882, it is important to realize that not until the few weeks immediately preceding the establishment of Israel in the spring of 1948 was there ever anything other than a huge Arab majority. For example, the Jewish population in 1931 was 174,606 against a total of 1,033,314.” Edward Said, “The Question of Palestine.” -http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html
C4: In recent centuries, "Palestine" was the Latin/European name for Eretz Yisrael, the Jewish homeland. Maps equated it with Judea & Israel and showed it comprising of the Jewiish tribal areas (on both sides of the Jordan River). SDH: According to American Jewish historian Illene Beatty The Jewish kingdoms were only one of many periods in ancient Palestine. “The extended kingdoms of David and Solomon, on which the Zionists base their territorial demands, endured for only about 73 years...Then it fell apart...[Even] if we allow independence to the entire life of the ancient Jewish kingdoms, from David’s conquest of Canaan in 1000 B.C. to the wiping out of Judah in 586 B.C., we arrive at [only] a 414 year Jewish rule.” Illene Beatty, “Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan.”
C4: Under Article 2 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, only the territory of a "high contracting party" (a State) can be considered occupied. Thus after 1967, Gaza was considered occupied EGYPTIAN territory and Judea & Samarea were considered occupied JORDANIAN territory. Recall that no one considered Egypt or Jordan to be occupiers between 1948-1967. SDH, Jordanian and Egyptians were occupiers and many Palestinians were against them too. Hundred of Palestinians were killed by the King of Jordan to end the Occupation.
C4: The Israeli administration of the disputed territories, gained in a defensive war in 1967, is completely legal. The binding UN resolution on this issue, UNSCR 242, does NOT require an immediate, unilateral or full Israeli withdrawal. It allows Israel to administer the territories until a final agreement is reached based on the "land for peace" formula (which was unfortunately rejected by most Arab parties for decades).
SDH: You forgot most important thing “OSLO ACCORDS.” It is an idea to “Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements.” The whole West Bank and Gaza Strip both are under the Palestinian territories. This what the Israeli government and most pro-Zionist forgot. It is an illegal occupation. 22 percent is all illegally occupied territory under international law. All 450,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank (including Jerusalem) have been illegal and put there in violation of the Geneva Conventions. Illegal apartheid wall that is creating large concentration camps for the increasingly squeezed and dividing Palestinians. Oh there are many Israeli illegal in the Palestinian territories. (You don’t recognize the Palestinian territories)
C4: Even Jimmy Carter admits there is no apartheid in Israel (despite the title of his book - to drive sales). This is just another one of those emotional soundbite/slogans that Samer loves to regurgitate and by which he sheds more heat than light.
SDH: Jimmy Carter never said he admits there is no apartheid in Israel. He wasn’t talking about Israel. He was talking about Gaza and West Bank “Israeli apartheid.” Yes there was an Israeli apartheid. Jimmy Carter said, “Israel`s apartheid policies worse than South Africa.” (You believe there is no apartheid in Gaza and West Bank)
C4: Jews were driven off their land by invading Arab armies in 1948. How can you claim that returning to them is illegal?
SDH: I am talking about the modern Israeli settlers… You are talking about 60 years ago, while more than thousands of Palestinians from Israel were ethnic cleansing. We are talking about today. Israeli settlements in Palestine are Illegal. Have you watch 60 mins? (You believe Israeli settlements are not illegal)
C4: It was a catastrophe for the Arabs that they rejected compromise after compromise, opting for war after war and losing war after war. Al Nakba was self inflicted.
SDH: You are right it was a catastrophe. But it wasn’t because the Arab rejected the compromise and it wasn’t self inflicted. They were massacred and forced by Zionist terrorist gangs and some minority Palestinian fled because of war. (Al Nakba Denier)
C4: There was no "Palestine" and no "Palestinians" in the late 19th century.
SDH: There was a land called Palestine in the late 19th century under the British Mandate. People that live there were Palestinians (Palestinian Jews and Arabs) before Israel was a country. (You believe there is no Palestine and no Palestinians in late 19th century.)
C4: Do you understand the difference between "a land without A people" and "a land without people"?!
SDH: Yes it was myth from a famous Zionist leader quote. That is how they educated Zionist youths and adults and telling them Palestine was empty when they settled there. Not true, there were a lot of Palestinians living there before Zionist arrived in Palestine.
SDH: You believe Gaza was under the most brutal, inhumane, genocidal siege?
C4: This question shows that you are completely delusional and have no concept of history. Please show me any other siege in history where an army allowed food, water, medicine and fuel (among other things) to enter the area under siege. And really, "genocidal"? Do you really think you are fooling anyone with these emotional propaganda slogans/soundbites?
SDH: The United Nations has finally identified Israel's attack on The Gaza as a genocide in accordance with the UN charter. Israeli Spokesman M. Regev, admitting that Hamas did not violate the Ceasefire until Israel attacked the Gaza Strip on the 4th of November. This damages Israeli claims that it was Hamas that broke the ceasefire. source: NowPublic.com
10. You believe the Israeli prime ministers of the past were only interested in a peaceful co-existence with their Arab neighbors? Stealing water and land from their Arab neighbors like Syria and Lebanon.
C4: No water was "stolen". SDH: Yes, they stole water from Palestinians, Syrian, Jordanian and Lebanese. “Israel Stole 30 Bln Cubic Litres Of Water From Golan Heights” source: encyclopedia.com Israel has stolen 90% of Palestinian water in the West Bank source: independent.co.uk
C4: No land was "stolen". SDH: Yes… Golan Heights from Syria and Lebanese Farms in South Lebanon. (In denial - stolen from Palestinians, Lebanese and Syrians)
It's your spam propaganda regurgitation of failed arguments that is tired.
There is no such thing as a "right of return".
S> Yes there is “right of return.” Israeli government refused the “right of return.” UN General Assembly Resolution 194 passed on 11 December 1948
Israel was willing to accept UNGAR 194. The Arab parties rejected it because it required them first making peace. UN Genera Assembly Resolutions are not binding. 60 years later you can't cherry pick one point of a resolution you rejected.
Today there is such a group, but 150 years ago there was not. The ethnogenesis of this group as a unit came in the middle of the 20th century.
S> You are right we both agree on that one.
There was never an Arab state known as "Palestine"
S> I never said Palestine was a country. I said the land was called Palestine.
Called? By who?
In recent centuries, "Palestine" was the Latin/European name for Eretz Yisrael, the Jewish homeland. Maps equated it with Judea & Israel and showed it comprising of the Jewiish tribal areas (on both sides of the Jordan River).
S> According to American Jewish historian Illene Beatty...
She wasn't Jewish or an historian. She wrote one poorly received book on the subject more than 50 years ago. Stop cherry picking. Get a real source.
Beatty> if we allow independence to the entire life of the ancient Jewish kingdoms, from David’s conquest of Canaan in 1000 B.C. to the wiping out of Judah in 586 B.C., we arrive at [only] a 414 year Jewish rule
That's ridiculous given that the Jewish kingdoms weren't "wiped out" in 586 BCE and continued until 70 CE - another 650 years.
Regardless, we were discussing "recent centuries". Do at least try to stay on point.
Under Article 2 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, only the territory of a "high contracting party" (a State) can be considered occupied. Thus after 1967, Gaza was considered occupied EGYPTIAN territory and Judea & Samarea were considered occupied JORDANIAN territory. Recall that no one considered Egypt or Jordan to be occupiers between 1948-1967.
S> Jordanian and Egyptians were occupiers
Says who? Not the UN, not the PLO (which was established by Egypt [not Hanan Ashrawi's father].
S> many Palestinians were against them too. Hundred of Palestinians were killed by the King of Jordan
That was in 1970-71, after Arafat attempted to assassinate the King and take over Jordan - and thousands were killed, maybe even 10,000.
But you haven't really addressed the point here, either.
The Israeli administration of the disputed territories, gained in a defensive war in 1967, is completely legal. The binding UN resolution on this issue, UNSCR 242, does NOT require an immediate, unilateral or full Israeli withdrawal. It allows Israel to administer the territories until a final agreement is reached based on the "land for peace" formula (which was unfortunately rejected by most Arab parties for decades).
S> You forgot most important thing “OSLO ACCORDS.” It is an idea to “Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements.” The whole West Bank and Gaza Strip both are under the Palestinian territories.
Massive fail. The Oslo Accords accept UNSCR 242 as their basis. And the Accords did NOT envision the "whole" of the disputed territories being "Palestinian territories". That's why there was negotiation involved, including negotiating the border.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/isrplo.asp || leading to a permanent settlement based on Security Council Resolutions 242 || these negotiations shall cover remaining issues, including: Jerusalem, refugees, settlements, security arrangements, BORDER, relations and cooperation with their neighbors
Now that he has a link to the Oslo "Declaration of Principles", I challenge Samer to quote them in support of his propaganda lie above ("The WHOLE...").
That UNSCR242 (and later Oslo!) authorize Israel to hold and administer the disputed territories (i.e. there is nothing "illegal" about the so-called "occupation") is another point which Samer can't address honestly.
Even Jimmy Carter admits there is no apartheid in Israel (despite the title of his book - to drive sales). This is just another one of those emotional soundbite/slogans that Samer loves to regurgitate and by which he sheds more heat than light.
S> Jimmy Carter never said he admits there is no apartheid in Israel.
Yes, he did. It was in a NY Times op ed.
S> He wasn’t talking about Israel. He was talking about Gaza and West Bank “Israeli apartheid.”
So you are saying that Gaza & Trans/Jordan's former "West Bank" (for thousands of years known as Judea and Samaria) are "in Israel"?
Gaza is under Hamas rule. How can it be under Israeli apartheid? Do you even know what apartheid is? If there is apartheid in Gaza (e.g. different laws for Muslims and Christians), it is on Hamas.
Jews were driven off their land by invading Arab armies in 1948. How can you claim that returning to them is illegal?
S> I am talking about the modern Israeli settlers… You are talking about 60 years ago,
As usual, you simply don't know what you are talking about. The Jews in the disputed territories were completely ethnically cleansed in 1948 and they returned to their land after 1967. That was the birth of the "modern" "settler" movement.
Nakba was a catastrophe for the Arabs that they rejected compromise after compromise, opting for war after war and losing war after war. Al Nakba was self inflicted.
S> it wasn’t because the Arab rejected the compromise and it wasn’t self inflicted. They were massacred and forced by Zionist terrorist gangs and some minority Palestinian fled because of war
The majority of the Arabs (not yet "Palestinians") fled due to the war.
The war was started by the Arabs after rejecting the 1947 UN partition compromise.
There was no "Palestine" and no "Palestinians" in the late 19th century.
S> There was a land called Palestine in the late 19th century under the British Mandate.
The British Mandate didn't start until after WW I, in the 20th century.
Do you understand the difference between "a land without A people" and "a land without people"?!
S> Not true, there were a lot of Palestinians living there before Zionist arrived in Palestine
I guess you just showed us that you don't understand the differnece between those two statements.
Again, they weren't yet "Palestinians" and there weren't "a lot". Some (De Haas) have estimated the population as low as 50,000. Today in that territory there are 10-11 million people.
S> You believe Gaza was under the most brutal, inhumane, genocidal siege?
This question shows that you are completely delusional and have no concept of history. Please show me any other siege in history where an army allowed food, water, medicine and fuel (among other things) to enter the area under siege. And really, "genocidal"? Do you really think you are fooling anyone with these emotional propaganda slogans/soundbites?
S> [more propaganda soundbites, but no comparison to any other siege.]
It's sad that Samer doesn't even understand the nature of evidence required to sustain his kangaroo court charges. What's importnat to him is to make the accusations... even if he can't back them up.
Mt. Dov (or Sheba Farms) is part of the Golan and was part of Syria, not Lebanon, prior to 1967 (as shown in official Lebanese government maps from that time). The UN has certified that Israel has fully withdrawn from Lebanon to the "Blue Line" (the official border established by the Israel-Lebanon Armistice Agreement of 1949).
It's sad how Samer mindlessly regurgitates Hizbullah propaganda (after all, it gives them the pretense by which to attack Israeli civilians, so - in Samer's warped world - why not?). Of course, this is the same clown who fell for Saddam's false claims that Kuwait (which has been ruled by the Al-Sabah family since before the US declared independence) was actually part of Iraq (which was established after WW I).
Caesarea doesn't want peace and does not recognize Palestinian right to exist.
1. C4 says there is no “RIGHT OF RETURN" 2. (We both agree on this one.) 3. Ignore my question when I said the "land" was called Palestine, then change the subject to "nation" or a "country." 4. He doesn't recognize the Palestinian territories. 5. C4 says there is no apartheid in Gaza and West Bank. 6. C4 says Israeli settlements are not illegal 7. C4 is an Al Nakba denier and no different from the Holocaust denier. 8. C4 says there is no Palestine and no Palestinians in late 19th century. 9. C4 says there is no Gaza genocide, but the United Nations said it was a modern genocide. 10. C4 denial that Israel stole water and land from the Palestinians, Lebanese and Syrians.
No wonder why there never be peace in the middle east because people like C4 refuse to recognize the Palestinians right to exist.
sxydrkhair saidCaesarea doesn't want peace and does not recognize Palestinian right to exist.
1. C4 says there is no “RIGHT OF RETURN" 2. (We both agree on this one.) 3. Ignore my question when I said the "land" was called Palestine, then change the subject to "nation" or a "country." 4. He doesn't recognize the Palestinian territories. 5. C4 says there is no apartheid in Gaza and West Bank. 6. C4 says Israeli settlements are not illegal 7. C4 is an Al Nakba denier and no different from the Holocaust denier. 8. C4 says there is no Palestine and no Palestinians in late 19th century. 9. C4 says there is no Gaza genocide, but the United Nations said it was a modern genocide. 10. C4 denial that Israel stole water and land from the Palestinians, Lebanese and Syrians.
No wonder why there never be peace in the middle east because people like C4 refuse to recognize the Palestinians right to exist.
Again, there is no reason to argue with Caesarea4. He should get banned from this site for hating Palestinians.
Samer> He should get banned from this site for hating Palestinians
As usual, unable to address any points of substance, Samer turns to personal attacks.
I don't think anyone missed that you couldn't refute anything I said regarding your sham points. (No wonder you ignored my offer to discuss these, in depth, one at a time.)
Samer> No wonder why there never be peace in the middle east because people like C4....
That we disagree on history (me backed by scholarly books and credible sources, you with your shallow and delusional soundbites and propaganda slogans) doesn't mean we can't make peace.
The problem, as we have seen in topic after topic, is that you want to continue fighting until you get what you want (even whilst complaining that you are the "victim" - that's great Orwellian doublespeak). The problem is that you insist on continuing hostilities until you get either one Arab states or two Arab states.
As we see in the peace topic (where you had nothing to say), there is nothing on which you are willing to compromise on for the sake of peace:
The lack of peace has nothing to do with me and everything to do with you and your 60+ year old politics of rejectionism not to mention your Hamas and Hizbullah terrorist heroes.
Tell us what is your peace plan? Clinton's compromise? Why you like Clinton's compromise better than other peace plans? Stealing lands in the West Bank and East Jerusalem? That what you want? You want no Palestinians in Israel, West Bank and Gaza Strip and move all Palestinians in Jordan?
The Clinton compromise parameters are discussed in that topic. (Sad to see that even when it comes to peace, Samer can't avoid his propaganda soundbite sloganeering.)
Let's get back to the point we were discussing:
1A. Missing from Samer's propaganda picture is the presence of Jewish/Israeli soldiers forcing out the Arab population of Jaffa in 1948
We now know that the Arab residents requested that the British evacuate them, by sea, to Beirut. They were not "forced out" and no Jewish/Israeli soldiers were present - despite the false titles on pictures at Samer's propaganda sites.
Benny Morris: || The remaining Jaffa municipal leaders... asked the British commanders to arrange the evacuation of some of the city's remaining Arabs "by sea... to Beirut."
1B. A "survivor" account on the same site tells that the abandonment of the city caught his family by surprise. People had decided to leave, thinking that 2 weeks later - after the Arab armies that were threatening to invade had "thrown the Jews into the sea" - they would be back.
From Samer's own link on "PalestineRemembered": || We returned [Home from the market] and found to our surprise almost all our neighbors standing on their doors with their suitcases in hand. There were two ships 'waiting' in the port, they said, and it is a matter of 15 days and we will be back. So, within minutes we made up our mind and left to the port. The boats you see in this picture are lifting Jaffa residents from the quay to the ships waiting some 600 meters far in the sea. You would not believe if I tell you that 24 hours ago [earlier], we have'nt got the slightest idea of leaving.
Back to Morris: 1C. 25% of the population fled even before the fighting began and a whopping 95% of the people of Jaffa fled before the fighting ended - before Jewish/Israeli forces had an opportunity to "expel" them.
We have learned that the remaining 5% wanted Haganah to enter Jaffa and restore order after being terrorized by the "Arab Liberation Army".
Morris: || the ALA contingent, headed by Michel al Issa... "acted as if the town was theirs, and began to rob people and loot their houses. People's lives became worthless and women's honour was defiled. This prompted many inhabitants to leave under the protection of the British tanks."
|| Those remaining had apparently asked that the Jews be allowed to take over and restore law and order. ..The Jaffa Arab Emergency Committee, representing the 4,000-5,000 remaining inhabitants [about 5% of the pre-war population], signed a formal surrender agreement with the Haganah.
According to Al Ahram: || Michel Al-Issa, cabled to the Arab League Military Committee in Damascus: "There are no forces left to defend the city. All the inhabitants have already LEFT."
"Left", not "forced out", not "expelled", not "ethnically cleansed".
1D. The 5% who didn't choose to flee were not ethnically cleansed. To the contrary, they and their descendants today are full citizens of Israel, with equal protection under the law.
sxydrkhair saidTell us what is your peace plan? Clinton's compromise? Why you like Clinton's compromise better than other peace plans? Stealing lands in the West Bank and East Jerusalem? That what you want? You want no Palestinians in Israel, West Bank and Gaza Strip and move all Palestinians in Jordan?
Again C4... What is your peace? Wipe all Palestinians out?
"We control congress, we control the media, we control show biz, and we control everything in America. In America you can criticize God, but you can't criticize Israel." -Israeli spokeswoman, Tzipora Menache
Samer> "We control congress, we control the media, we control show biz, and we control everything in America. In America you can criticize God, but you can't criticize Israel." -Israeli spokeswoman, Tzipora Menache
Found a new false quote from your spam propaganda sources?!
Tell us, how old is "Tzipora Menache"? If she's an "Israeli spokeswoman", tell us something else she's said.
Looks like Samer is now relegated to making noise because he ran out of lies about Jaffa's population fleeing rather than being expelled or "ethnically cleansed".
As usual, unable to defend one lie, Samer offers up another as a diversion.
Samer, if you've given up on point 1, let's move on to #2.
Caesarea4 saidSamer> "We control congress, we control the media, we control show biz, and we control everything in America. In America you can criticize God, but you can't criticize Israel." -Israeli spokeswoman, Tzipora Menache
Found a new false quote from your spam propaganda sources?!
Tell us, how old is "Tzipora Menache"? If she's an "Israeli spokeswoman", tell us something else she's said.
Looks like Samer is now relegated to making noise because he ran out of lies about Jaffa's population fleeing rather than being expelled or "ethnically cleansed".
As usual, unable to defend one lie, Samer offers up another as a diversion.
Samer, if you've given up on point 1, let's move on to #2.
I have no idea, I found that quote from my friend myspace bulletin. I thought that was interesting quote. Maybe she doesn't exist? Who knows?
Anyways, i am not lying about jaffa's population, because 90 percent of the Palestinians of Jaffa destroyed. Jaffa, 4,000 Palestinians were gathered in the southern Ajami neighborhood while their houses in other parts of the city, or the surrounding villages, were occupied or destroyed. You don't think that is a lie? You don't think there was such thing "ethnic cleansing" in Jaffa? You love me don't you? That is why you keep responding to my posts? lol
"It was 46 years ago, on May 13, 1948—the day before Israel's creation—that the all-Arab seaside city of Jaffa surrendered to Jewish forces. It was the largest Arab city in Palestine and, under the U.N. Partition Plan, was to have been part of a Palestinian state. But Menachem Begin's terrorist Irgun group began bombarding civilian sectors of the city on April 25, terrifying the inhabitants into panicky flight." - source: wrmea.com
"At the time, the city's normal population of around 75,000 was already down to 55,000. On the day of surrender less than three weeks later, only about 4,500 remained. The rest of Jaffa's citizens had fled their homes in terror, becoming part of the 726,000 Palestinian refugees created by the war. " - source: wrmea.com
"When future Israeli Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion learned that Jaffa had fallen, he wrote in his diary: "Jaffa will be a Jewish city. War is war." To accomplish this, Israel set up a housing committee that was to allocate Palestinian homes and apartments to newly arrived Jewish families on certain dates." - source: wrmea.com
sxydrkhair saidTell us what is your peace plan? Clinton's compromise? Why you like Clinton's compromise better than other peace plans? Stealing lands in the West Bank and East Jerusalem? That what you want? You want no Palestinians in Israel, West Bank and Gaza Strip and move all Palestinians in Jordan?
Again C4... What is your peace? Wipe all Palestinians out?
C4, here is my peace plan. Let see if anyone here will agree with my peace plan or yours.
Here is my peace plan:
1. Israeli settlers or Israeli settlements will stay in the West Bank and will accepted full Palestinian citizenship. That mean they will be equal with other Palestinian citizens. The Gaza Strip and the West Bank will be the Palestinian state within the borders of 1967.
So that way, we both don't have to worry about Israeli settlers and Palestinian refugees problem.
3. Jerusalem will be Palestinian and Israeli capital city. If you don't agree with that, then I guess we will have to make Jerusalem into an international city like Vatican city.
Now we both will have Israel and Palestine - two state solution.
Samer, anyone with 2 neurons can see that your "peace plan" is a formula for 2 Arab states. Why is it that you refuse to discuss peace in the peace topic, raising false history there, and yet here you can't defend those false histories and wish to obfuscate by talking about "peace"?
What's funny about Point #1 is that whereas previously Samer pretended to question the facts I presented, now he confirms them:
Samer quoting WRMEA> At the time [of the Irgun counter-attack], the city's normal population of around 75,000 was already down to 55,000. On the day of surrender less than three weeks later, only about 4,500 remained.
Why did the Irgun attack? We already know that they acted in retribution (Samer's source said so, but he deceptionally left that out) and that the "Arab Liberation Army" had soldiers in Jaffa who were attacking Tel Aviv.
More importantly, though, we see that 27% of the population had already FLED even before the Irgun's counter-attack (down from 75,000 to 55,000).
Like Samer, WRMEA attempts to obscure that. Worse, it provides the following misleading information:
WRMEA> Although Arab armies from neighboring countries did not enter Palestine until May 15
Except we've already seen that ALA troops were present in Jaffa at the time. This line exposes WRMEA as an untrustworthy source. Anyone who has ever studied the 1948 war knows that Arab soldiers began entering Mandate Palestine in January. This is a popular Arab propaganda trick to mislead people into thinking that Jewish military action in April was aggressive rather than defensive and that led to the Arabs declaring war in May. For all practical purposes, the Arab parties had already declared war immediately after the passage of the UN Partition comproimse (29 Nov. 1947) and began attacking the Jewish community in early December of 1947.
Trygve Lie, the UN Secretary General: || From the first week of December 1947, disorder in Palestine had begun to mount. The Arabs repeatedly had asserted that they would resist partition by force. They seemed to be determined to drive that point home by assaults upon the Jewish community of Palestine.
John Bagot Glubb, the British Commander of the Arab Legion, wrote: || Early in January, the first detachments of the Arab Liberation Army began to infiltrate into Palestine from Syria.... They were in reality to strike the first blow in the ruin of the Arabs of Palestine.
Jamal Husseini, spokesman for the Arab Higher Committee which represented the Arabs of Mandate Palestine (who were not yet known as "Palestinians), didn't attempt to hide the known truth when he addressed the UN Security Council: || The representative of the Jewish Agency told us yesterday that they were not the attackers, that the Arabs had begun the fighting. We did not deny this. We told the whole world we were going to fight.
Conclusion on point #1:
By the time Jewish/Israeli soldiers entered Jaffa, only 4,500 Arabs were left - and they were NOT "ethnically cleansed" (to the contrary, we've learned that they surrendered because they wanted the Haganah to defend them from the rampaging ALA). 94% of the population FLED due to the Arab initiated war and were not "forced out" or "expelled". The remaining 6% became Israeli citizens.
Contrary to Samer's spam propaganda photo and false caption, the Arabs of Jaffa were not "forced out". They opted to flee the Arab initiated war and had the British transport them to Beirut (that is the scene in his propaganda photo). Even the highly biased WRMEA repeatedly speaks of the Arab's "flight" and never once says "expelled" or "forced out".
Samer, do you wish to take this opportunity to apologize for - knowingly or not - passing on propaganda lies to RJers? Or will you continue to spam them, both here and elsewhere, as often as you can? Is your "integrity" to the truth or to your cause?! Will you continue to lie-for-the-cause even now that you know better?
There is no such thing ethnic cleansing in Jaffa? Of course there were and some of them fled their homes too, but they can't return their homes "right of return" because Israel won't allow them. Every year, the United Nations has re-affirmed Resolution 194, the resolution passed in December of 1948 that called upon all refugees to be allowed to return to their homes. However, the newly-declared Israeli state soon declared those refugees "absentees" and their land "absentee property" and give to foreign European Jews that settled there in 1948. That is ethnic cleansing not allowing them to return.
As usual, all Samer can do is attempt to defend his previous lies with more lies:
S> Every year, the United Nations has re-affirmed Resolution 194, the resolution passed in December of 1948 that called upon all refugees to be allowed to return to their homes.
As I've already corrected you, several times: Only 1 point of UNGAR 194 dealt with refugees, the rest entailed a peace agreement. Thus UNGAR 194 was rejected by the Arab parties. UNGAR 194 didn't require "return", allowing also for "resettlement".
Back to the point of discussion:
S> There is no such thing ethnic cleansing in Jaffa? Of course there were and some of them fled their homes too
Thus we see that Samer continues to intentionally lie-for-the-cause.
We have seen, confirmed from his own sources, that 94% of the population FLED. Using his sources, 27% fled even before the Jewish counter-attack. A whopping 94% fled prior to the town's surrender (having themselves been terrorized by the Arab Liberation Army). Rather than be "expelled", "forced out", "ethnically cleansed" or all the other shallow soundbites and vacuous slogans beyond which Samer can't debate, we see that the 6% which remained became citizens of Israel.
