Iran caught - again - trying to illegally enrich Uranium; Iran dreams of "a world without the US and Israel."

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    Sep 25, 2009 1:45 PM GMT
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/26/world/middleeast/26nuke.html?_r=1

    || President Obama and leaders of Britain and France accused Iran on Friday of building a secret underground plant to manufacture nuclear fuel, saying the country has hidden the covert operation from international weapons inspectors for years.

    || “The level of deception by the Iranian government, and the scale of what we believe is the breach of international commitments, will shock and anger the entire international community,” British Prime Minister Gordon Brown said, standing on the other side of Mr. Obama. “The international community has no choice today but to draw a line in the sand.”

    || Mr. Obama decided to make public the American findings after Iran discovered, in recent weeks, that Western intelligence agencies had breached the secrecy surrounding the project. On Monday, Iran wrote a brief, cryptic letter to the International Atomic Energy Agency, saying that it now had a “pilot plant” under construction, whose existence it had never before revealed.

    || “They have cheated three times,” one senior administration official with access to the intelligence said of the Iranians late on Thursday evening. “And they have now been caught three times"... referring to the revelations by an Iranian dissident group that led to the discovery of the underground plant at Natanz in 2002, and the evidence developed two years ago — after Iran’s computer networks were pierced by American intelligence agencies — that the country had secretly sought to design a nuclear warhead. American officials believe that effort was ordered halted in late 2003. [Some European and Israeli intelligence agencies disagree and believe that program continues.]

    || Mr. Obama said Friday that “the size and type of the facility is inconsistent with that of a peaceful facility,” and he added that French, British and American intelligence about the plant had been provided to the I.A.E.A.

    || Mr. Obama... came into office and made a series of overtures to the Iranian regime, sending a videotaped message in the spring to wish the regime and the Iranian people a Happy Nowruz, or new year, lifting restrictions on American diplomats’ interactions with their Iranian counterparts and sending two letters to Iran’s supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, urging warmer relations between America and Iran after 30 years of enmity.

    || “The response we got was, shall we say, chilling,” one administration official said. In particular, the Iranian government’s handling of the presidential elections in June solidified the belief among Mr. Obama’s top Iran officials that it was time to toughen up on the country, the official said.
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    Sep 25, 2009 1:49 PM GMT
    According to Mad Jad:

    There was no Holocaust
    There are no gays in Iran
    The election vote count was legitimate
    Iran only wants nukes for peaceful purposes.
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    Sep 25, 2009 1:55 PM GMT
    Earlier this month, even before the IAEA was informed about the above-mentioned plant by western intelligence agencies, IAEA director El Baradi stated:

    http://www.iaea.org/NewsCenter/Statements/2009/ebsp2009n009.html

    || On all other issues relevant to Iran´s nuclear programme, however, there is stalemate. Iran has not suspended its enrichment related activities or its work on heavy water related projects as required by the Security Council, nor has Iran implemented the Additional Protocol.

    || Iran has not cooperated with the Agency in connection with the remaining issues, detailed fully and completely in the Agency´s reports, which need to be clarified in order to exclude the possibility of there being military dimensions to Iran´s nuclear programme.

    || In my view, there are three key areas relevant to Iran´s nuclear programme that need to be addressed.

    || First, and specifically, Iran needs to respond fully to all the questions raised by the Agency in order to exclude the possibility of there being military dimensions to its nuclear programme. To this end, it is essential that Iran substantively re-engage with the Agency to clarify and bring to closure all outstanding issues, including the most difficult and important questions regarding the authenticity of information relating to the alleged weaponization studies, by granting the Agency access to persons, information and locations.

    || Second, and more generally, Iran needs to implement the Additional Protocol. Without the Protocol, the Agency will not be able to provide credible assurances about the absence of undeclared nuclear activities in Iran, especially given Iran´s past record of failing to declare material and activities.

    || Third, Iran´s future intentions concerning its nuclear programme need to be clarified to respond to the concerns of the international community. This is essentially a question of confidence-building between Iran and the international community through comprehensive dialogue and other measures. I call on all parties to begin this dialogue as soon as possible and urge Iran to respond positively to the recent US initiative in this regard.

    Iran is playing for time (trying to pull a fait accompli), so even if we see a "positive" response I'm not holding my breath that it will go anywhere or that there will be any substantial results - as the Obama administration (one official who has described Iran's response to Obama's efforts as "chilling") has come to realize.

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    Sep 25, 2009 2:07 PM GMT
    But wait, there's more!

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/24/AR2009092404815.html

    || An Iranian exile group said Thursday that it has identified two previously unknown sites in and near Tehran where it says Iranian scientists are researching and trying to manufacture detonators for nuclear weapons.

    || The allegation, from the Paris-based Mujaheddin-e Khalq, or MEK, was designed to reinforce the exiles' long-standing contention that the Iranian government, despite repeated denials, has an active program to develop a nuclear arsenal under the aegis of the Defense Ministry and the Revolutionary Guard Corps.

    || There was no way to confirm the authenticity of Thursday's allegation. But previous MEK information has given Western intelligence agencies tips about some Iranian nuclear activities or provided details about research sites.

    || Mehdi Abrishamchi, an MEK activist... said the two sites house programs designed to research and produce high-explosive detonators for atomic bombs. ...the two sites were part of a complex known as METFAZ -- the Farsi acronym for Research Center for Explosion and Impact -- that apparently has been in operation for several years under the command of the Defense Ministry.

    || Abrishamchi said the two sites basically continue work that was being done at Shian, a facility that was razed by Iranian authorities after being denounced by the MEK in 2003. He called on the International Atomic Energy Agency to try to inspect the sites as quickly as possible.
  • jarhead5536

    Posts: 1348

    Sep 25, 2009 6:54 PM GMT
    Iran is obsessed with The Bomb because they are obsessed with Israel. Or more to the point, Amehdinijad is obsessed with The Bomb because he is obsessed with Israel. The Muslim fundie nutjobs believe they are ordained by God to drive the Jews into the sea, and will not rest until it has been accomplished. Or, if you prefer to take a secular look at the region, leaders would much rather focus the attention of their peoples on the Zionist cancer than their own poverty and lack of basic human rights...
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    Sep 25, 2009 7:36 PM GMT
    jarhead5536 saidIran is obsessed with The Bomb because they are obsessed with Israel. Or more to the point, Amehdinijad is obsessed with The Bomb because he is obsessed with Israel. The Muslim fundie nutjobs believe they are ordained by God to drive the Jews into the sea, and will not rest until it has been accomplished. Or, if you prefer to take a secular look at the region, leaders would much rather focus the attention of their peoples on the Zionist cancer than their own poverty and lack of basic human rights...


    You're stupid.
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    Sep 25, 2009 7:50 PM GMT
    Fable said
    jarhead5536 saidIran is obsessed with The Bomb because they are obsessed with Israel. Or more to the point, Amehdinijad is obsessed with The Bomb because he is obsessed with Israel. The Muslim fundie nutjobs believe they are ordained by God to drive the Jews into the sea, and will not rest until it has been accomplished. Or, if you prefer to take a secular look at the region, leaders would much rather focus the attention of their peoples on the Zionist cancer than their own poverty and lack of basic human rights...


    You're stupid.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Fable, explain yourself, what's so stupid about what jarhead wrote, seems a reasonable accessment of Amehdinijad's unreasonable actions toward Israel.
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    Sep 25, 2009 8:40 PM GMT
    sxydrkhair saidIsrael have like 7 or more nuclear weapons in the Middle East and Iran aren't allow? I think every countries deserve to have their own weapons to defend themselves.



    I agree. I've always found it the height of arrogance for some countries to determine who can or cannot have nuclear weapons
  • jarhead5536

    Posts: 1348

    Sep 25, 2009 8:46 PM GMT
    Fable said
    jarhead5536 saidIran is obsessed with The Bomb because they are obsessed with Israel. Or more to the point, Amehdinijad is obsessed with The Bomb because he is obsessed with Israel. The Muslim fundie nutjobs believe they are ordained by God to drive the Jews into the sea, and will not rest until it has been accomplished. Or, if you prefer to take a secular look at the region, leaders would much rather focus the attention of their peoples on the Zionist cancer than their own poverty and lack of basic human rights...


    You're stupid.


    I am left speechless by the clarity and relevance of your response...
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    Sep 25, 2009 10:02 PM GMT
    Well, jarhead, you're "stupid" on two points: you mispelled Ahmadinejad (but then, I just called him Mad Jad so who am I to complain) and you should've put quotes around "cancer" (find someone to slap your wrist with a ruler, or whip, or whatever you're into).

    Even would-be "moderates" such as Rafsanjani have opined that a first strike against Israel could work (Israel would be destroyed and Iran could survive the counter-strike, only losing a few cities).


    sxydrkhair> Let see what the Iranian Jews say about Israel.

    The majority of Iranian Jews have already moved to Israel (including a former Defense Minister and former President of Israel). Many of those who remain wish to leave for Israel but are not allowed to. As usual, Samer would focus on an exception and is either confused by it or attempts to use it to mislead others (imagine someone showing youtubage of John Lind, the "American Taliban", and presenting it as "What Americans think about Osama".

    Of course, the above has absolutely nothing to do with the topic and only serves to show that Samer shares Ahmadinejad's obsession.


    sxydrkhair> Iran is the 2nd largest Jewish community in the Middle East after Israel.

    The Iranian Jewish community remaining in Iran is just a fraction of what it was just 30 years ago let alone 60. Saying that it is the 2nd largest after Israel isn't much of a boast but rather damns all the other countries whose Jewish population (some dating back 2500 years) have vanished either within our lifetimes or that of our parents.

    Indeed, it's known as "damning with faint praise".


    sxydrkhair> [Why] Iran aren't allow? I think every countries deserve to have their own weapons to defend themselves.

    Iran is a signatory of the NPT and signed away their right to develop nukes.

    Furthermore, Iran isn't seeking nukes to "defend themselves" but to threaten and attack others in pursuit of their hegemony over the region. The Iranian President and Supreme Leader has frequently spoken of destroying and burning Israel (even if "wipe off the map" was an idiomatic rather than literal translation), even saying that the "countdown to Israel's destruction has begun".

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    Sep 25, 2009 10:06 PM GMT
    Caesarea4 said even saying that the "countdown to Israel's destruction has begun".



    Neat- Evangelical Christians will love to hear that
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    Sep 25, 2009 10:19 PM GMT
    I'm just glad that it so happens that reasonable people have "the bomb". If it was up to some of you who say "hey lets all spread the technology, we all deserve to defend ourselves equally," the world would be involved in nuclear holocaust.

    The point of the sanctions are so that countries like Iran WON'T use them in any sort of way, be it war, defense, or an invasion. We like to play (somewhat) fair, you didn't see us nuking Iraq or nuking Afghanistan.
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    Sep 25, 2009 10:23 PM GMT
    Draoiocht saidI'm just glad that it so happens that reasonable people have "the bomb". If it was up to some of you who say "hey lets all spread the technology, we all deserve to defend ourselves equally," the world would be involved in nuclear holocaust.

    The point of the sanctions are so that countries like Iran WON'T use them in any sort of way, be it war, defense, or an invasion. We like to play (somewhat) fair, you didn't see us nuking Iraq or nuking Afghanistan.


    and interesting enough- only america has ever dropped the bomb













    twice!icon_exclaim.gificon_evil.gif

    why should we be the only reasonable ones to have dropped the bomb? i say give every country a chance to drop one as well if they so desire.
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    Sep 25, 2009 10:27 PM GMT
    Blackguy4you said
    Draoiocht saidI'm just glad that it so happens that reasonable people have "the bomb". If it was up to some of you who say "hey lets all spread the technology, we all deserve to defend ourselves equally," the world would be involved in nuclear holocaust.

    The point of the sanctions are so that countries like Iran WON'T use them in any sort of way, be it war, defense, or an invasion. We like to play (somewhat) fair, you didn't see us nuking Iraq or nuking Afghanistan.


    and interesting enough- only america has ever dropped the bomb



    twice!icon_exclaim.gificon_evil.gif


    Wow, your very observant! Of course they've been used since, but I'm sure your short observation referred to warfare, not tests.

    We invented the bomb, maybe that's why nobody had used it before us...because it didn't exist!

    There hasn't been a reason to use it since. Ending a world war sounds like reason to use one, not to start one.
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    Sep 25, 2009 10:31 PM GMT
    Blackguy4you said
    Draoiocht saidI'm just glad that it so happens that reasonable people have "the bomb". If it was up to some of you who say "hey lets all spread the technology, we all deserve to defend ourselves equally," the world would be involved in nuclear holocaust.

    The point of the sanctions are so that countries like Iran WON'T use them in any sort of way, be it war, defense, or an invasion. We like to play (somewhat) fair, you didn't see us nuking Iraq or nuking Afghanistan.


    and interesting enough- only america has ever dropped the bomb













    twice!icon_exclaim.gificon_evil.gif

    why should we be the only reasonable ones to have dropped the bomb? i say give every country a chance to drop one as well if they so desire.


    You're clearly an idiot. I'm done, I won't argue with idiots. It's a waste of "T I M E".

    Again, I'm glad idiots like you aren't the ones with the keys to launch em.
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    Sep 25, 2009 10:51 PM GMT
    Draoiocht said
    Blackguy4you said
    Draoiocht saidI'm just glad that it so happens that reasonable people have "the bomb". If it was up to some of you who say "hey lets all spread the technology, we all deserve to defend ourselves equally," the world would be involved in nuclear holocaust.

    The point of the sanctions are so that countries like Iran WON'T use them in any sort of way, be it war, defense, or an invasion. We like to play (somewhat) fair, you didn't see us nuking Iraq or nuking Afghanistan.


    and interesting enough- only america has ever dropped the bomb



    twice!icon_exclaim.gificon_evil.gif


    Wow, your very observant! Of course they've been used since, but I'm sure your short observation referred to warfare, not tests.

    We invented the bomb, maybe that's why nobody had used it before us...because it didn't exist!

    There hasn't been a reason to use it since. Ending a world war sounds like reason to use one, not to start one.


    hmmmmmm dropping two bombs on Japan ended the world war? too simplistic an answer, even if it were true. i guess i studied a different history to the one you are currently studying.

    oh there has been plenty reasons to use it. why i can think of a couple right now without too much effort
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    Sep 25, 2009 10:59 PM GMT
    Blackguy4you said
    Draoiocht said
    Blackguy4you said
    Draoiocht saidI'm just glad that it so happens that reasonable people have "the bomb". If it was up to some of you who say "hey lets all spread the technology, we all deserve to defend ourselves equally," the world would be involved in nuclear holocaust.

    The point of the sanctions are so that countries like Iran WON'T use them in any sort of way, be it war, defense, or an invasion. We like to play (somewhat) fair, you didn't see us nuking Iraq or nuking Afghanistan.


    and interesting enough- only america has ever dropped the bomb



    twice!icon_exclaim.gificon_evil.gif


    Wow, your very observant! Of course they've been used since, but I'm sure your short observation referred to warfare, not tests.

    We invented the bomb, maybe that's why nobody had used it before us...because it didn't exist!

    There hasn't been a reason to use it since. Ending a world war sounds like reason to use one, not to start one.


    hmmmmmm dropping two bombs on Japan ended the world war? too simplistic an answer, even if it were true. i guess i studied a different history to the one you are currently studying.

    oh there has been plenty reasons to use it. why i can think of a couple right now without too much effort


    "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."

    ~Mark Twain
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    Sep 25, 2009 11:13 PM GMT
    [quote]
    hmmmmmm dropping two bombs on Japan ended the world war? too simplistic an answer, even if it were true. i guess i studied a different history to the one you are currently studying.
    [/quote]


    Oh thats right, after slaughtering over 6 million people, Japan surrendered because of sanctions and stern words.
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    Sep 25, 2009 11:18 PM GMT
    DClifterguy said[quote]
    hmmmmmm dropping two bombs on Japan ended the world war? too simplistic an answer, even if it were true. i guess i studied a different history to the one you are currently studying.



    Oh thats right, after slaughtering over 6 million people, Japan surrendered because of sanctions and stern words.[/quote]

    not only is history a problem - so is geography it appears as well. you are aware that japan and germany are not the same countries right? heck you are aware that they are not even on the same continent right?
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    Sep 25, 2009 11:24 PM GMT
    Japan likely also murdered 6 million people:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_atrocities
    || between 1937 and 1945, the Japanese military murdered from nearly 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most likely 6,000,000 Chinese, Indonesians, Koreans, Filipinos, and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war.

    Reminder: The topic isn't to (yet again) debate 1945.


    With that out of the way, we now return you to this topic:

    Iran caught, again, trying to illegally enrich Uranium.
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    Sep 25, 2009 11:35 PM GMT
    Blackguy4you said
    DClifterguy said[quote]
    hmmmmmm dropping two bombs on Japan ended the world war? too simplistic an answer, even if it were true. i guess i studied a different history to the one you are currently studying.



    Oh thats right, after slaughtering over 6 million people, Japan surrendered because of sanctions and stern words.


    not only is history a problem - so is geography it appears as well. you are aware that japan and germany are not the same countries right? heck you are aware that they are not even on the same continent right?[/quote]


    Apparently history is your problem not mine.....

    But yes back to the original problem. No one but Iran thinks its a good idea for Iran to have nukes. If anyone actually believes they are developing nuclear technology for peaceful purposes is smoking something serious that they really need to share with the rest of us.
  • dantoujours

    Posts: 378

    Sep 25, 2009 11:36 PM GMT
    I think everyone is getting it a bit wrong here.


    1) I have never understood the focus on Ahmadinejad personally. He is the President of Iran but not its leader. The presidency of Iran is a weak presidency who manages the civil service. The real leader of the country is Ali Khamenei who is a Shi'ite cleric.

    2) The only nuclear power in the Middle East right now is Israel. If Iran develops the bomb, then you'll have the same stalemate the U.S. and Soviet Union had for 50 years. The leadership of Iran knows that if they drop the bomb on Israel, they will be wiped off the map. No doubt Iran's bomb will be used as a bargaining chip and tip the balance of power, which is something the west doesn't want. But the chances of Iran actually using it are about nil.

    3) I would hope that most Americans have mixed feelings about using the bomb in Japan. By the time the bomb was used in 1945, the Soviets declared war on Japan, it was clear that the Japanese were losing and the U.S. had been pushing for surrender. Those bombs killed 250,000 civilians. Whether more would have died if the Japanese hadn't surrendered and the U.S. had to use conventional bombs and an invasion is anyone's guess. Still using a military weapon indiscriminately on a civilian population should prick the consciences of everyone.
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    Sep 25, 2009 11:44 PM GMT
    dantoujours said

    3) I would hope that most Americans have mixed feelings about using the bomb in Japan. By the time the bomb was used in 1945, the Soviets declared war on Japan, it was clear that the Japanese were losing and the U.S. had been pushing for surrender. Those bombs killed 250,000 civilians. Whether more would have died if the Japanese hadn't surrendered and the U.S. had to use conventional bombs and an invasion is anyone's guess. Still using a military weapon indiscriminately on a civilian population should prick the consciences of everyone.


    The firebombing raids (particularly on Tokyo) were taking more lives than the atomic bombings and the country was perched on the edge of a massive famine by mid 1945. I have no doubt whatsoever that had the war continued there would have been enormously larger death tolls among both the civilian population and the military.

    From all accounts the IJA brass retained the will to go right up to the inevitable bloody end even after the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima. The 2nd use gave the remaining sane elements in the government a case to take to the Emperor who ordered the military to stand down and surrender.
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    Sep 25, 2009 11:48 PM GMT
    I think everyone knows the arguments for and against the use of the atom bombs in 1945. If someone really had something new to offer... I suppose they could start a different topic.


    dantoujours> 1) I have never understood the focus on Ahmadinejad personally. He is the President of Iran but not its leader. The presidency of Iran is a weak presidency who manages the civil service. The real leader of the country is Ali Khamenei who is a Shi'ite cleric.

    And? Obviously Khamenei has picked Ahmadinejad to be president and hasn't taken him to task for repeatedly displaying ignorance and bigotry and embarrasing the country on the international stage (with dozens of world leaders walking out when Ahmadinejad speaks at the UN).

    Worse yet, Khamenei (like his predecessor, Khomeini) has voiced support for Ahmadinejad and his policies.


    dantoujours> 2) ...The leadership of Iran knows that if they drop the bomb on Israel, they will be wiped off the map. No doubt Iran's bomb will be used as a bargaining chip and tip the balance of power, which is something the west doesn't want. But the chances of Iran actually using it are about nil.

    Debatable. As already noted, even "moderate" leaders like Rafsanjani have stated that whereas Israel would be destroyed, Iran could suffer the consequences and survive. And if these loons really buy into the philosophy they push on their own people, what better than to be nuclear suicide bombers and reap not only the heavenly rewards but to have your praises sung for thousands of years...?
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    Sep 26, 2009 12:04 AM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidl.

    Debatable. As already noted, even "moderate" leaders like Rafsanjani have stated that whereas Israel would be destroyed, Iran could suffer the consequences and survive. And if these loons really buy into the philosophy they push on their own people, what better than to be nuclear suicide bombers and reap not only the heavenly rewards but to have your praises sung for thousands of years...?


    They may parrot the lines for the general public but they aren't stupid and want to hold on to power like any other government.

    Even at the most conservative estimate of 100 nuclear weapons, the Israeli retaliation would effectively end Iran as a country and wipe out most of its population.