Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side'

  • metta

    Posts: 39154

    Oct 02, 2009 4:09 PM GMT
    It is an old article but I thought that it was interesting. icon_smile.gif

    Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side'


    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article571206.ece


    [quote]

    RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today.

    According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems.

    The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society.


    [/quote]
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 02, 2009 4:48 PM GMT
    Well that made me feel good, but I suspect that there are more complex factors involved. Still, the denial of the problem does not aid in its solution and more conservative communities often do hide their social issues.
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    Oct 02, 2009 5:25 PM GMT
    Science reporting sucks so hard it makes me want to cry.
  • PipHop

    Posts: 439

    Oct 02, 2009 7:23 PM GMT
    Most of the people I've met in life with low morals are the ones that try to act churchy all the time. And they never get their own hypocrisy.
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    Oct 02, 2009 7:39 PM GMT
    PipHop saidMost of the people I've met in life with low morals are the ones that try to act churchy all the time. And they never get their own hypocrisy.



    this is also true but this does not mean good people do not exist, being gay you guys should know generalizing is bad and it makes you no better than these 'religious' people that you hate.
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    Oct 02, 2009 7:42 PM GMT
    This is such a load of junk. I don't even know where to begin...icon_rolleyes.gif

    Oh I know - it is plain out stupid. I'd match USA and all of its craziness and inefficiencies with any other country any day icon_evil.gif

    Societies are blatantly worse off without God
  • PipHop

    Posts: 439

    Oct 02, 2009 7:49 PM GMT
    CanadianSun said
    PipHop saidMost of the people I've met in life with low morals are the ones that try to act churchy all the time. And they never get their own hypocrisy.



    this is also true but this does not mean good people do not exist, being gay you guys should know generalizing is bad and it makes you no better than these 'religious' people that you hate.


    Who said anything about hate? I was just talking about what I've witnessed firsthand. From going to church 4 days out of the week as a kid in a small conservative southern town to hanging with choir directors now, I've consistently seen 'good church folk' acting nothing like the tenets they espouse and lambaste others for lacking.

  • Delivis

    Posts: 2332

    Oct 02, 2009 7:50 PM GMT
    Blackguy4you saidThis is such a load of junk. I don't even know where to begin...icon_rolleyes.gif

    Oh I know - it is plain out stupid. I'd match USA and all of its craziness and inefficiencies with any other country any day icon_evil.gif

    Societies are blatantly worse off without God


    If by that you mean that societies with a higher religiosity do better in any way you are downright wrong.

    Countries with the least religiosity have the highest standard of living, life expectancy, lowest infant mortality rate, best education etc. Think Sweden, Finnland, Japan, etc.

    It is no coincidence that the US is unique among modern nations to have both the highest religiosity and some of the lowest markers of societal health.
  • PipHop

    Posts: 439

    Oct 02, 2009 7:52 PM GMT
    Blackguy4you said

    Societies are blatantly worse off without God


    Not to dismiss you, but can you support that with anything other than 'faith'? It would be nice to believe, but only with real proof. Just because you don't like the statement doesn't mean it can't be true. And when you judge people by the biblical morals, standards, ethics, etc., that they supposedly live by, it's amazing how short they come up. Then the same old fall back, "We're only human, nobody's perfect." is used as an excuse.
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    Oct 02, 2009 7:57 PM GMT
    PipHop said
    Blackguy4you said

    Societies are blatantly worse off without God


    Not to dismiss you, but can you support that with anything other than 'faith'? It would be nice to believe, but only with real proof. Just because you don't like the statement doesn't mean it can't be true. And when you judge people by the biblical morals, standards, ethics, etc., that they supposedly live by, it's amazing how short they come up. Then the same old fall back, "We're only human, nobody's perfect." is used as an excuse.


    which countries do you want to pick? I'll put america with its belief in god against anyone of em.
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    Oct 02, 2009 8:02 PM GMT
    PipHop said
    Blackguy4you said

    Societies are blatantly worse off without God


    Not to dismiss you, but can you support that with anything other than 'faith'? It would be nice to believe, but only with real proof. Just because you don't like the statement doesn't mean it can't be true. And when you judge people by the biblical morals, standards, ethics, etc., that they supposedly live by, it's amazing how short they come up. Then the same old fall back, "We're only human, nobody's perfect." is used as an excuse.


    If I can anticipate the standard response in that the examples of Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia are inadmissible as 1) Hitler was and worked with the Catholic Church as well as Catholicism figuring heavily into Nazi identity and 2) Russian people under the Soviet regime were deeply religious and was officially an atheist state only during its very early years 3) Those states say less about Secularism than they do about authoritarian regimes so let's not confuse the two.

    So there.
  • Delivis

    Posts: 2332

    Oct 02, 2009 8:04 PM GMT
    Blackguy4you said
    PipHop said
    Blackguy4you said

    Societies are blatantly worse off without God


    Not to dismiss you, but can you support that with anything other than 'faith'? It would be nice to believe, but only with real proof. Just because you don't like the statement doesn't mean it can't be true. And when you judge people by the biblical morals, standards, ethics, etc., that they supposedly live by, it's amazing how short they come up. Then the same old fall back, "We're only human, nobody's perfect." is used as an excuse.


    which countries do you want to pick? I'll put america with its belief in god against anyone of em.


    I have a better idea, pick a criterion by which we are to evaluate this.Heck, pick a few.

    Life expectancy? Quality of life? Educational standards? Gap between rich and poor? Infant mortality? Poverty levels? Teen pregnancy?

    Plenty more to choose from. What makes a society better/healthier? Pick some criteria then let's go from there.
  • bottomline

    Posts: 331

    Oct 02, 2009 8:05 PM GMT
    Thanks for posting. But i think it is old news that religion and God are problems. I don't even argue that with people any more. Just nod and move along. Maybe feel sorry for the guy, but that's it.

    And I dont want to hear that it all people that messed it up... I have read and studied the Quran, the Bible and Bhagvat Gita. THE PEOPLE AND THE RELIGIONS AT THIER CORE ARE BOTH F***-UP.
  • PipHop

    Posts: 439

    Oct 02, 2009 8:08 PM GMT
    which countries do you want to pick? I'll put america with its belief in god against anyone of em.

    In what manner do you speak? Are you referring to living conditions? Are you referring to consistency in regards to following religious examples? Are you talking about upward growth or education? General health? Teenage pregnancy? All of the above? How much of America's supposed superiority are you attributing to the belief in god? Which religion are referring or are they all to be lumped in together?
  • PipHop

    Posts: 439

    Oct 02, 2009 8:16 PM GMT
    MunchingZombie said
    PipHop said
    Blackguy4you said

    Societies are blatantly worse off without God


    Not to dismiss you, but can you support that with anything other than 'faith'? It would be nice to believe, but only with real proof. Just because you don't like the statement doesn't mean it can't be true. And when you judge people by the biblical morals, standards, ethics, etc., that they supposedly live by, it's amazing how short they come up. Then the same old fall back, "We're only human, nobody's perfect." is used as an excuse.


    If I can anticipate the standard response in that the examples of Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia are inadmissible as 1) Hitler was and worked with the Catholic Church as well as Catholicism figuring heavily into Nazi identity and 2) Russian people under the Soviet regime were deeply religious and was officially an atheist state only during its very early years 3) Those states say less about Secularism than they do about authoritarian regimes so let's not confuse the two.

    So there.


    We could always bring up the Ultra Religious ways of the good Ol US of A's history in dealing with civil rights (ALL of our civil rights) in discussion.
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    Oct 02, 2009 8:16 PM GMT
    PipHop said
    Blackguy4you said



    which countries do you want to pick? I'll put america with its belief in god against anyone of em.


    In what manner do you speak? Are you referring to living conditions? Are you referring to consistency in regards to following religious examples? Are you talking about upward growth or education? General health? Teenage pregnancy? All of the above? How much of America's supposed superiority are you attributing to the belief in god? Which religion are referring or are they all to be lumped in together?


    we are talking holistically of the well being of a society - i've already admitted that we have some inefficiencies here that we in america are trying to deal with. Inspite of this, i will still match america and its crazy and sometimes contrary beliefs with any others out there.
  • PipHop

    Posts: 439

    Oct 02, 2009 8:19 PM GMT
    Blackguy4you said
    PipHop said
    Blackguy4you said



    which countries do you want to pick? I'll put america with its belief in god against anyone of em.


    In what manner do you speak? Are you referring to living conditions? Are you referring to consistency in regards to following religious examples? Are you talking about upward growth or education? General health? Teenage pregnancy? All of the above? How much of America's supposed superiority are you attributing to the belief in god? Which religion are referring or are they all to be lumped in together?


    we are talking holistically of the well being of a society - i've already admitted that we have some inefficiencies here that we in america are trying to deal with. Inspite of this, i will still match america and its crazy and sometimes contrary beliefs with any others out there.


    But what will you match? Specifics young man.
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    Oct 02, 2009 8:22 PM GMT
    Delivis said
    Blackguy4you saidThis is such a load of junk. I don't even know where to begin...icon_rolleyes.gif

    Oh I know - it is plain out stupid. I'd match USA and all of its craziness and inefficiencies with any other country any day icon_evil.gif

    Societies are blatantly worse off without God


    If by that you mean that societies with a higher religiosity do better in any way you are downright wrong.

    Countries with the least religiosity have the highest standard of living, life expectancy, lowest infant mortality rate, best education etc. Think Sweden, Finnland, Japan, etc.

    It is no coincidence that the US is unique among modern nations to have both the highest religiosity and some of the lowest markers of societal health.


    I haven't read the article but it sounds a little, ah, queer.

    Finland is a predominantly Lutheran country. A Finish friend tells me that prayer and Bible studies are a part of the government school system.

    The U.S., formerly a Christian country, has been in moral freefall since liberals in black robes invented the phony doctrines like separation of church and state and a right to kill the unborn (supposedly hidden for 200 years).

    Israel's existence is nothing less than a series of miracles.

    Western Civilization, based largely on Christianity, has been a beacon of prosperity and freedom.

    Those who think "nothing created everything" are placing their eternal souls in jeopardy and will likely face the Tribulation and the Antichrist. Then, facing a ruler ten times worse than Hitler, they can ponder societal health.

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    Oct 02, 2009 8:25 PM GMT
    well since god is fake, this cant be true. I cant have pikachu on my side in real life, other people cant have god on their side. And neither party is better or worse off.

    If you look at the definition of insane, people who follow religions and pray daily for things from the being of their choice, match the description. Doing the same thing repetitively and hoping for different results.
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    Oct 02, 2009 8:26 PM GMT
    PipHop said
    Blackguy4you said
    PipHop said
    Blackguy4you said



    which countries do you want to pick? I'll put america with its belief in god against anyone of em.


    In what manner do you speak? Are you referring to living conditions? Are you referring to consistency in regards to following religious examples? Are you talking about upward growth or education? General health? Teenage pregnancy? All of the above? How much of America's supposed superiority are you attributing to the belief in god? Which religion are referring or are they all to be lumped in together?


    we are talking holistically of the well being of a society - i've already admitted that we have some inefficiencies here that we in america are trying to deal with. Inspite of this, i will still match america and its crazy and sometimes contrary beliefs with any others out there.


    But what will you match? Specifics young man.


    hmmmmmmm ok you wanna play it like that, huh?

    i'll match wealth and freedom and standard of living
  • PipHop

    Posts: 439

    Oct 02, 2009 8:29 PM GMT
    jockfever said
    Delivis said
    Blackguy4you saidThis is such a load of junk. I don't even know where to begin...icon_rolleyes.gif

    Oh I know - it is plain out stupid. I'd match USA and all of its craziness and inefficiencies with any other country any day icon_evil.gif

    Societies are blatantly worse off without God


    If by that you mean that societies with a higher religiosity do better in any way you are downright wrong.

    Countries with the least religiosity have the highest standard of living, life expectancy, lowest infant mortality rate, best education etc. Think Sweden, Finnland, Japan, etc.

    It is no coincidence that the US is unique among modern nations to have both the highest religiosity and some of the lowest markers of societal health.


    I haven't read the article but it sounds a little, ah, queer.

    Finland is a predominantly Lutheran country. A Finish friend tells me that prayer and Bible studies are a part of the government school system.

    The U.S., formerly a Christian country, has been in moral freefall since liberals in black robes invented the phony doctrines like separation of church and state and a right to kill the unborn (supposedly hidden for 200 years).

    Israel's existence is nothing less than a series of miracles.

    Western Civilization, based largely on Christianity, has been a beacon of prosperity and freedom.

    Those who think "nothing created everything" are placing their eternal souls in jeopardy and will likely face the Tribulation and the Antichrist. Then, facing a ruler ten times worse than Hitler, they can ponder societal health.



    Fundamentalist Christians are currently working overtime to convince the American public that the founding fathers intended to establish this country on "biblical principles," but history simply does not support their view. Thomas Jefferson, in fact, was fiercely anti-cleric. In a letter to Horatio Spafford in 1814, Jefferson said, "In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is easier to acquire wealth and power by this combination than by deserving them, and to effect this, they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer for their purposes" (George Seldes, The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey Citadel Press, 1983, p. 371). In a letter to Mrs. Harrison Smith, he wrote, "It is in our lives, and not from our words, that our religion must be read. By the same test the world must judge me. But this does not satisfy the priesthood. They must have a positive, a declared assent to all their interested absurdities. My opinion is that there would never have been an infidel, if there had never been a priest" (August 6, 1816).
  • PipHop

    Posts: 439

    Oct 02, 2009 8:41 PM GMT
    ^ Thank you!
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    Oct 02, 2009 9:40 PM GMT
    metta8 saidIt is an old article but I thought that it was interesting. icon_smile.gif

    Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side'


    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article571206.ece


    [quote]

    RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today.

    According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems.

    The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society.


    [/quote]

    It has long been known that false belief systems cause lots of problems.
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    Oct 02, 2009 9:51 PM GMT
    Come to Texas and see how fucked up the culture is due to Jesus Freaks. Or you can go to Salt Lake City, where most of the adult population is drugged on antidepressants and their kids are killing themselves left and right when they aren't fucking. Religion fucks shit up because it has zero basis in reality.
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    Oct 02, 2009 9:51 PM GMT
    Blackguy4you said
    Societies are blatantly worse off without God

    Can you substantiate this with something more than your opinion?

    ))) crickets (((