A poll released Monday suggests that supporters of gay marriage have pulled further ahead of opponents, but voter sentiment for two tax-related initiatives may be souring as the campaigns enter the final week.
In the most closely watched race on the Nov. 3 ballot, Question 1, the latest survey results from Portland-based Pan Atlantic SMS Group show the effort to repeal Maine’s same-sex marriage law trailing.
Roughly 40 percent of respondents indicated they would vote to repeal versus 52 percent in support of allowing same-sex couples to marry. That is a slightly larger gap than a Pan Atlantic poll from earlier this month.
I hope it's just me who finds the lack of concern, focus and some fervor on this issue, especially on a site like RealJock where there are quite a number of civic-minded people, disconcerting. I hope this is due to folks being too actively involved with the campaign effort to post here. I would have thought after Proposition 8 in California, this might be a bigger deal, or perhaps Maine isn't as important as California.
To all Mainers and others who have been working to stop the passing of Prop 1, I salute you and thank you. I hope we can all remember that while perhaps, in the future, equality for gay people may be inevitable, we still have to fight for it, and that fight still isn't going to be easy. What is easy is to become complacent about it. There is still a call to arms. Come on, everyone, we can do it if we try.
We're often pretty vocal in our support for gay marriage in the US, but lately, like now with this Prop 1 we're feeling a little jaded because of how things seem to work down there.
Voting to repeal a legislated human right.
If it gets stopped, then what? How long will you be safe before the next vote?
Anyone who lives in Maine or knows someone who does, please consider taking just a couple minutes to call and remind them to vote Tues, Nov 4 and to vote no on 1. A "no" vote will protect legal gay marriage there. This is a crucial election for the gay rights movement. Please spread the word!!!
We're often pretty vocal in our support for gay marriage in the US, but lately, like now with this Prop 1 we're feeling a little jaded because of how things seem to work down there.
Voting to repeal a legislated human right.
If it gets stopped, then what? How long will you be safe before the next vote?
You're right, Doug/Bill, after the whole Prop 8 fiasco, I don't blame anyone for becoming jaded about this whole issue. Even after six states (including Maine) have legalized same-sex marriage, it seems like the other site keeps getting energized, and we'll have another Prop 1 on our hands.
But I think it is because the other side will never rest until they win, we have to keep fighting. No doubt in a protracted battle, people get tired and just want it to end. But that's why we're here for one another. We're all in this together fighting for our rights and our freedoms, and call me naive, but I think we have it within us to give support to each other when one of us tires, or gets disillusioned, or thinks of giving up.
Maybe I'm too hopeful. Maybe we will ultimately not win this battle. Maybe it won't happen within our lifetimes. But I can't believe that, and I don't. And I certainly won't quit fighting. Because if I do, the other side wins, and our rights and our freedoms will remain deprived. I don't fault anyone for not taking up the mantle, but I hope we can find it within ourselves not to give up. This is too important.
If Prop 1 is defeated, it would be an immense loss in credibility for religious and social conservatives. It would be the first time that a majority of the American public supported marriage equality via a referendum. SSM has been legalized in the other five states through legislative action or judicial decree.
Greta Christina wrote on her blog, using somewhat inflammatory language:
"In the U.S., same-sex marriage has never, ever won at the ballot box. Ever. The Right has always been able to use smears and scare tactics and even flat-out lies to keep voters from supporting same-sex marriage? tactics that are (marginally) less effective on judges and legislators than they are on voters."
"If we win this one, it will be a huge precedent. The far right won't be able to say that the courts and legislatures are shoving same-sex marriage down the throats of the people. The people will have spoken. And they will have spoken for fairness and equality."
If Prop 1 is passed, then the pro-equality forces would suffer a major loss in momentum. Maggie Gallagher, president of the National Organization for Marriage said:
"Gay marriage advocates have tried to craft a story line that the 'culture has shifted' on gay marriage. A victory in Maine will prove they are wrong. It will also make it clear to the Supreme Court that the majority of Americans care about fighting for our marriage tradition." 6
She correctly identifies the eventual goal, which is an inevitable appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court at some time in the future. When it reaches the court, if there is sufficient public support for SSM and a sufficient number of states that have legalized SSM, the court might issue a ruling legalizing same-sex marriage across the entire U.S. It did this during 1967 over interracial marriages. Interestingly, it was not until 1991 that a majority of adults in the U.S. were in favor of allowing interracial couples to marry."
If Prop 1 is defeated, it would be an immense loss in credibility for religious and social conservatives. It would be the first time that a majority of the American public supported marriage equality via a referendum. SSM has been legalized in the other five states through legislative action or judicial decree.
Greta Christina wrote on her blog, using somewhat inflammatory language:
"In the U.S., same-sex marriage has never, ever won at the ballot box. Ever. The Right has always been able to use smears and scare tactics and even flat-out lies to keep voters from supporting same-sex marriage? tactics that are (marginally) less effective on judges and legislators than they are on voters."
"If we win this one, it will be a huge precedent. The far right won't be able to say that the courts and legislatures are shoving same-sex marriage down the throats of the people. The people will have spoken. And they will have spoken for fairness and equality."
If Prop 1 is passed, then the pro-equality forces would suffer a major loss in momentum. Maggie Gallagher, president of the National Organization for Marriage said:
"Gay marriage advocates have tried to craft a story line that the 'culture has shifted' on gay marriage. A victory in Maine will prove they are wrong. It will also make it clear to the Supreme Court that the majority of Americans care about fighting for our marriage tradition." 6
She correctly identifies the eventual goal, which is an inevitable appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court at some time in the future. When it reaches the court, if there is sufficient public support for SSM and a sufficient number of states that have legalized SSM, the court might issue a ruling legalizing same-sex marriage across the entire U.S. It did this during 1967 over interracial marriages. Interestingly, it was not until 1991 that a majority of adults in the U.S. were in favor of allowing interracial couples to marry."
Thanks, Doug/Bill. I hadn't thought about this aspect before. This certainly makes the fight in Maine even more important.
There needs to be a solid win in defeating these nasty Props. Just one to set the stage for change (we're finally understanding the kookiness of US style democracy in regards to human rights - still makes us nauseated, though).
You know, the religious right in the US tried to meddle with the gay marriage decision up here. Oh yes, they wanted a referendum etc etc etc. Big money flowed across the border to Canada.
Canadians apparently don't like being meddled with. Our Conservative gov't did a very clever thing. They decided to have a vote (in government only) on whether or not to have a vote on whether or not to have a referendum.
In a way the US religious fanatics did a lot for Canadian gay marriage. Money well spent, eh?
Starting at 8pm tonight, when the polls close in Maine, there will be a live feed on the latest election results and streaming live video of our Election Night Party, so you can watch the evening program-- and any big announcements-- right along with the crowd in Maine.
Also in the city of Detroit, the first openly gay candidate to run for city council has been elected and received more votes than other person elected to the council, which means he will be city council president. It's a big deal because this is Americas largest black majority city (80% of the population), a community that has often been accused of not being gay friendly and blamed when gay marriage votes do not go our way. As a suburban Detroiter I usually detest the old machine style politics in the city, but tonight I am proud of Detroit.
REFERENDUM ALERT TO FAITHFUL CATHOLICS A group of self-described Catholics who have chosen to dissent publicly from established Catholic doctrine on the nature of marriage as the union of one man and one woman recently published a paid political ad entitled “Statement of Conscience by Maine Catholics Regarding Marriage Equality.” The evidence for their dissent runs through the statement and is crystallized in the following sentence: “…we find disturbing any suggestion that formal Church teaching obligates all Catholics to oppose marriage equality.” In contrast, please let your conscience be formed by these clear and authoritative words of Pope Benedict XVI (Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger): “In those situations where homosexual unions … have been given the legal status and rights belonging to marriage, clear and emphatic opposition is a duty." (Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, July 2003) A Catholic whose conscience has been properly formed by Scripture and the teachings of the Catholic Church cannot support same sex marriage. Please vote YES on question 1.
Most Reverend Richard J. Malone, Th.D. Bishop of Portland
This stinks. if we lose (lost) maine (probably the most liberal state) then you can kiss all the other states' support goodbye if they were to hold votes. Clearly neither judges nor legislatures can enact gay marriage and so the supreme court HAS to weigh in on this issue, so we can make plans on whether to move to Canada or not.
A victory in Maine would have been wonderful, but keep this in perspective: Equality is not going to be won through voting. Essentially what you have in all of these cases, whether it's Maine or California or Florida, is all eligible voters in the entire state voting on the rights of a minority. It should be no surprise that these votes rarely, if ever, go in our favor. And it's just wrong to have the rights of a minority of the populace voted upon by the majority.
If an end to segregation was put to vote in 1960s Alabama, do you think it would have passed? No, it took the courts to enact this and bring about a more just society. It will be the same for us.
Younger voters are more supportive of gay rights and it will be interesting to see their percentage among voters this year. I suspect in this year without Obama it is much lower than in 2009. Maybe Maine would have turned out differently. Detroit's newly elected openly gay City Council President said in an interview once when campaigning at Detroit's gay pride that he was shaking hands with thousands of young people, but shaking hands with a couple hundred people at a senior housing complex would probably get him more votes.
The No on 1 campaign ran a good campain, they were well funded, the marketing was very good from what I could see.
I don't know what else could have been done. We really need to get our rights on a federal level but it is very disapointing the small majority are still small minded.
To those that voted yes in Maine on 1 or yes on 8 in California:
Gay marriage shouldn't be decided by popular vote so it doesn't matter if we won or lost Maine. If we won by popular vote it would have been just as bad as losing by popular vote because either way it's wrong to vote on fundamental rights like that.
It's hard to argue fundamental human right or human equality if it's something that gets to be granted or taken away by voters however they see fit.
I´m with MenInLove (and others): voting on the human rights of a minority is NOT right. I don´t think people should be worried about pushing it through the courts, The antis always bleat, so give them some real reason to.
With 87% reporting the douchebags are up 2 points. However, the areas not reporting yet include Portland - which is likely to be strongly anti-douchebag and densely populated. So, we could still turn this around... or at least make it closer.
I just wont up to use the lavatory (4AM).. Their campaigns seemed much better than the retarded ones shown in CA. CA's noon8 campaign completely ignored the minorities...............................................
Tapper saidI would personally like to thank all of the gay RJ Republicans.
Thank you, pricks.
Hear, hear! Could not have said it any better! -Keith
Yes, because EVERY Republican on RJ is against the notion of gay marriage. What a couple of ignorant, closed-minded statements. Gay marriage has lost on the ballot in EVERY state where it has been put up to a vote, including states that haven't voted Republican in years.
Attitudes like yours do almost as much to set us back as ballot losses such as these.
Once again, it has been proven that civil rights and equality should not be left to the public for a vote! If given the chance to vote to eliminate slavery in the 1860's, does anyone think the "people" would have voted for fairness, equality, and individual rights? This doesn't end our fight for fairness and equality, it only delays the inevitable.
jc_online saidOnce again, it has been proven that civil rights and equality should not be left to the public for a vote!
Well we do live in a democracy, inconvenient as that may be at times.
The key is to work harder at education and outreach, and of course coming out to family and friends. It's hard to be bigoted against people you know and care about.
Tapper saidI would personally like to thank all of the gay RJ Republicans.
Thank you, pricks.
Hear, hear! Could not have said it any better! -Keith
Yes, because EVERY Republican on RJ is against the notion of gay marriage. What a couple of ignorant, closed-minded statements. Gay marriage has lost on the ballot in EVERY state where it has been put up to a vote, including states that haven't voted Republican in years.
Attitudes like yours do almost as much to set us back as ballot losses such as these.
Oh, please, Mary. Get over yourself. It's the Republican/Conservative party that's against gay marriage. Therefore, if you identify as a Republican, regardless of your sexual orientation, you support the Republican party's doctrine. To denounce this logic is what's ignorant and close-minded.
you cannot put civil rights issues on the ballots. totally defeats the principle of majority rule/minority rights. I think the way jesse ventura put it last night on larry king was dead on.
Had I lived in Maine I would have voted for the gay marriage amendment, however. I PERSONALLY believe it is easier for straight people to buy off on a Civil Union Amendment than a Gay Marriage Amendment. The people I have discussed this issue with (and that know Im str think its about gays cramming the "marriage" terminology down their throat.
Now to some, it is semantics in regards to civil union or marriage terminology but my guessis that to the majority it is not. I for one, dont like the word marriage when it comes to gay unions. I dont know really what it is, I suspect its the Catholic upbringing and knowing that a man and woman get married. If its not an issue why is the electorate turning it down? And now 30 states have constitutional amendments banning gay marriage that may or may not come up in the near future for their constituents to vote on.
In the states where the the government has legislated gay marriage/civil unions to be legal, its going to be a wait and see. If the proponents for gay marriage/unions can show the electorate in other states that the pro gay marriage states havent gone to hell in a handbasket, progress will be made.
Tapper !! I think your logic is exactly right !!!! It should be a non-issue, if a person is gay they are totally going against their own interests to be a republican. Republican and gay is as obviously dumb as are the christian poor masses voting against their own interests by being against Universal Health Care because they are republican. What gives with gays though to fall into a cluster fuck of such dumb people.
Tapper saidI would personally like to thank all of the gay RJ Republicans.
Thank you, pricks.
Hear, hear! Could not have said it any better! -Keith
Yes, because EVERY Republican on RJ is against the notion of gay marriage. What a couple of ignorant, closed-minded statements. Gay marriage has lost on the ballot in EVERY state where it has been put up to a vote, including states that haven't voted Republican in years.
Attitudes like yours do almost as much to set us back as ballot losses such as these.
cbicm79,
I don't want to put words in Tapper's or Keith's mouths, but I think what they mean is that sometimes gay republicans seem to be so factional and ideological that they are willing to throw out our equal rights just so their guy/gal wins, and all for what? A promise of fiscal responsibility (Bush and the GOP congress exploded the national debt when they were in power and quickly destroyed the surplus that Clinton had left us)? A promise of tax breaks (most people's taxes actually went down with Obama's plan)? Just to continue a legacy because they grew up in a republican family?
When there's a good, gay-supportive candidate up for election, I can see voting for him/her. In fact, I think it's strategically smart for the gay community not to have all its eggs in the Democrat basket. But when the GOP hardcore right-wing base is forcing out every moderate Republican, like they just did to Dede Scozzafava in NY-23, it's hard to understand what the rationale is for gays or lesbians to support these awful homophobic candidates that the GOP is running, like that Hoffmann guy that forced Scozzafava out of the race (Thank heavens he lost!), or McDonnell in Virginia, or Christie in New Jersey. These candidates went out of their way during the campaigns and during their political careers to threaten the rights of gays and lesbians, and yet there are some gays that will actually defend them and vote for them. That's what I don't understand. What's the payoff? Is it just masochism? Internalized homophobia? Why?
Tapper saidI would personally like to thank all of the gay RJ Republicans.
Thank you, pricks.
Hear, hear! Could not have said it any better! -Keith
Yes, because EVERY Republican on RJ is against the notion of gay marriage. What a couple of ignorant, closed-minded statements. Gay marriage has lost on the ballot in EVERY state where it has been put up to a vote, including states that haven't voted Republican in years.
Attitudes like yours do almost as much to set us back as ballot losses such as these.
Eventhough overall the Democrats might be slightly better on gay issues compared to Republicans, I just don't see a huge difference between the two on this issue. Where I do notice a huge difference is between religious denominations. Both the Mormon and Catholic church have been front and center opposing gay marriage. If you want to "thank" anyone thank those Churches (and their supporters) spear heading this movement. During the civil rights movement Martin Luthern King's religious conviction lead him to work for civil rights. Today some religious groups are once again supporting the rights of a minority group. The Mormon and Catholic Church are two that are not though.
Ryan_Andrew saidyou cannot put civil rights issues on the ballots. totally defeats the principle of majority rule/minority rights. I think the way jesse ventura put it last night on larry king was dead on.
You must be real proud of how the Catholic Church used its power to help push for the defeat gay marriage.
Being republican doesn't mean you support other republicans with ignorant ideology. Do some of you honestly think that if a gay guy is republican then they just vote republican no matter what or just support republicans? Are you that lost in your own ideology?
It's like thinking an independent must be a democrat if they vote for a democrat or must be a republican if they vote for a republican. I would think that gay guys being subject to labels and all the pre-judgments they go through along with them would have dropped such 1D thinking long ago!
Anto saidBeing republican doesn't mean you support other republicans with ignorant ideology. Do some of you honestly think that if a gay guy is republican then they just vote republican no matter what or just support republicans? Are you that lost in your own ideology?
It's like thinking an independent must be a democrat if they vote for a democrat or must be a republican if they vote for a republican. I would think that gay guys being subject to labels and all the pre-judgments they go through along with them would have dropped such 1D thinking long ago!
This is about fighting for equal rights under the law. No self-respecting gay man or woman should ever associate themselves with the Republican party. There is strength in numbers, and being counted as a member of the Republican party sends the wrong message to Washington. This isn't about how you vote. This is about something that not many right-leaning gays understand.
Why not register as an Independent? I was a registered Republican for close to 15 years, then I switched to Dem, but wasn't too fond of where that was leading me, either. What could I do? I decided to register as an Independent because anything is better than being a Republican.
Tapper saidI would personally like to thank all of the gay RJ Republicans.
Thank you, pricks.
What a typical response. Maine is a liberal state, if liberals wanted gay marriage they should have headed to the polls in larger numbers. Gay people CAN be Republicans because there's more to that party than social issues. (so basically you're saying gay republicans should say fuck everything else as long as they get a ring around their finger, which not a single democrat politician has wholeheartedly endorsed.) Polls show 20% of American's as liberal, which means the democratic party would be essentially non-existent if they only appealed to them. Go tell the democratic or independent folks that don't support a public option or abortion rights to get the hell out of this party, and see where'd we'd be. This hypocrisy is making me disgusted of being one of you guys (a lib).
Tapper, not attacking you, this is a generalization to the typical gay mindset that I come across here and in real life.
Tapper saidI would personally like to thank all of the gay RJ Republicans.
Thank you, pricks.
What a typical response. Maine is a liberal state, if liberals wanted gay marriage they should have headed to the polls in larger numbers. Gay people CAN be Republicans because there's more to that party than social issues. (so basically you're saying gay republicans should say fuck everything else as long as they get a ring around their finger, which not a single democrat politician has wholeheartedly endorsed.) Polls show 20% of American's as liberal, which means the democratic party would be essentially non-existent if they only appealed to them. Go tell the democratic or independent folks that don't support a public option or abortion rights to get the hell out of this party, and see where'd we'd be. This hypocrisy is making me disgusted of being one of you guys (a lib).
Tapper, not attacking you, this is a generalization to the typical gay mindset that I come across here and in real life.
I'm sorry, but I don't agree with you. None of this would be happening, had it not been for Republicans. I know what I'm saying is a generalized statement, but it is what it is. Are there Dems that are against gay marriage? Of course there are. Are there Dems that fight tooth and nail to make damn sure no gay American is protected under the law? I don't think so, but there are plenty of Republicans fighting against us, and trying to keep us out of hate crime legislation, the military, etc.
I know the principles and policies that separate Republicans from Democrats, and in modern America, anti-gay sentiment is one of them. The Republican party is anti-abortion, anti-gay, anti-equality, so again I say that any gay man or woman who also happens to be a Republican, has no reason to open his/her trap and complain about not being treated equally under the law. You reap what you sow.
Gay Republicans can't see the forest for the trees (or they refuse to). Either way, it's sad. I think most have been brainwashed into thinking the Republican party represents all that's good in America, while Dems represent the polar opposite.
Freedom will not come Today, this year Nor ever Through compromise and fear.
I have as much right As the other fellow has To stand On my two feet And own the land.
I tire so of hearing people say, Let things take their course. Tomorrow is another day. I do not need my freedom when I'm dead. I cannot live on tomorrow's bread.
Freedom Is a strong seed Planted In a great need. I live here, too. I want freedom Just as you.
coolarmydude saidFreedom will not come Today, this year Nor ever Through compromise and fear.
I have as much right As the other fellow has To stand On my two feet And own the land.
I tire so of hearing people say, Let things take their course. Tomorrow is another day. I do not need my freedom when I'm dead. I cannot live on tomorrow's bread.
Freedom Is a strong seed Planted In a great need. I live here, too. I want freedom Just as you.
"I'm disappointed that Senate Republicans have decided that defeating hate crimes legislation takes precedent over supporting our troops," Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said in a statement. "It is outrageous and unacceptable that Senate Republicans would vote against pay raises for our troops, battlefield equipment upgrades and increased funding for veterans' health care as we continue to fight two wars. And they decided to do this all for the sake of stopping passage of landmark legislation that will bring justice to those who commit violent crimes based on bigotry and prejudice. What message does that send to our country and, more importantly, to our troops?"
Watch the video at the bottom of the story. Interesting.
I typed the following message earlier today, but am compelled to type it one more time.
I would personally like to thank all of the gay RJ Republicans.
NOTHING the Republican party did in the past 8 years has been good for gay people, straight people or anybody else. Name ONE thing.
And, WHY can't any of you stupid Republican ass holes learn that it's the Democrat(ic) party, not the Democrat party.
Because you are asking them to see beyond their economic interests.
At the end of the day, it comes down to their perception of which ideology better provides for the maintenance and continuation of their wealth accumulation.
think its about gays cramming the "marriage" terminology down their throat. 