Catholics and Same Sex Marriage

  • metta

    Posts: 39090

    Oct 31, 2009 12:52 AM GMT
    In Maine, same-sex marriage is a Catholic issue



    http://ncronline.org/news/politics/maine-same-sex-marriage-catholic-issue



    Gay marriage supporter removed from ministries

    [QUOTE]



    Pamella Starbird Beliveau of Lewiston, Maine, was removed as a lector and Eucharistic Minister after her pastor read an opinion piece she wrote for the local newspaper approving of same-sex marriage.



    Beliveau explained her position to NCR: "At every juncture of this debate, we have to remind ourselves that we are dealing with heart, soul, and flesh human beings who are in love called and wired for relationship, including intimate relationships.".



    "When anyone finds that other person in [his or her] life," Beliveau explained, "then we aspire to marriage, a noble and honorable way to live our lives."

    Heterosexually married for 20 years, the mother of two daughters, and graduate student at Boston College's School of Ministry of Theology, Beliveau added, "To deny any couple [marriage] breaks my heart."



    Perhaps most important, "People in same-sex marriage do not diminish my marriage or family." Rather, she said, "Anyone promoting committed, monogamous relationships enhance my life and that of my family."

    After here guest column, "A Committed Marriage is a worthy Aspiration," Oct. 18, she received a letter from her pastor.



    He wrote: "The Lewiston Sun Journal published a guest editorial by you which expressed views contrary to the Roman Catholic Church's teaching on the nature of marriage. ... In view of this publicly stated position of yours, I regret that you will not be eligible to exercise a public ministry in Prince of Peace Parish. More specifically, that means that I have decided that you are not to serve as a reader or minister of Holy Communion effective today ..."

    [/QUOTE]



    http://ncronline.org/news/gay-marriage-supporter-removed-ministries







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    Oct 31, 2009 12:57 AM GMT

    Lol, that's OK; like many others, including me, she's outgrown the church. it's too narrow, confined and myopic for the wonderful person she is. This is why too often these religions become hotbeds of bigots - the good people are ejected. This is fine as the rest of the world needs people like her.



    -Doug
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    Oct 31, 2009 3:17 AM GMT
    A guy on another forum posted this claiming that since Vatican II the Catholic church respects people's personal conscience on acceptace of Catholic teachings:

    "that is actually what opened my eyes to the Catholic Church... all that stuff is great but what really matters and reins supreme according to V2 is in fact our direct link with God which is our conscience. V2 states pretty plainly if any catholic objects to the doctrines or teachings of the church be cause of the concision than that objection is define and is to be respected because of the individuals relationship with Christ."



    The examples in Maine show that is bullshit! The Catholic church dosn't respect differences viewpoints at all. Will Catholics ever just wake up and realize how outdated and backwards the Catholic church is!
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    Oct 31, 2009 3:49 AM GMT
    phemt saidThe examples in Maine show that is bullshit! The Catholic church dosn't respect differences viewpoints at all. Will Catholics ever just wake up and realize how outdated and backwards the Catholic church is!

    This is not only the Catholic church that has the same viewpoint, most religion has the same idea, you are with us or you are going to hell and to be with us, you must be like us.

    Diversity is a dangerous thing for orangised religion, it means the lose of power and control.
  • Webster666

    Posts: 9217

    Oct 31, 2009 3:53 AM GMT
    There's a reason they call them, "Religious NUTS."
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    Oct 31, 2009 6:50 AM GMT
    phemt saidWill Catholics ever just wake up and realize how outdated and backwards the Catholic church is!

    Might want to include a lot of other denominations and religions.
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    Oct 31, 2009 7:14 AM GMT
    phemt saidA guy on another forum posted this claiming that since Vatican II the Catholic church respects people's personal conscience on acceptace of Catholic teachings:

    "that is actually what opened my eyes to the Catholic Church... all that stuff is great but what really matters and reins supreme according to V2 is in fact our direct link with God which is our conscience. V2 states pretty plainly if any catholic objects to the doctrines or teachings of the church be cause of the concision than that objection is define and is to be respected because of the individuals relationship with Christ."



    The examples in Maine show that is bullshit! The Catholic church dosn't respect differences viewpoints at all. Will Catholics ever just wake up and realize how outdated and backwards the Catholic church is!


    Since that is a refrence to me I'll repost what I said in the other thread with a few changes.

    Sure I know thats happened. Hell let me put it to you this way, try being the president of your university's Young Democrats on a college campus.. (Stands Up) when all that mess with kerry was going on. Sure you saw all the hype about people trying to deny him that right but did you hear anything of people whom were against them doing that as well? No, you didn't. almost everyone on my entire campus was pro-kerry and was like WTF? why would they want do that? I remember a mass that sunday having the priest talk about it and say that it was wrong because of the exact same thing I told you.

    It comes down to this:
    1.) Yes, there is Scripture, tradition, the magisterium, and official teaching that aids the conscience... you're right here on this.(1)

    2.) One in using all of the above, prayer, and meditation can have an informed conscience in which to make an informed decision about an issue, question, concern that may in-fact run contra to all of them above as the church sees it.(1)

    (1)"Catholicism at the Dawn of the Third Millennium" by Rausch
    Further Reading: "Why You Can Disagree & Remain a Faithful Catholic" by Philip S. Kaufman.

    As for homosexual relations: Lots of questions remain about that and I know you're spinning in your chair about to hit google up like a fat kid loves cake but fact is that many many scholars disagree on what exactly was meant but much of what is said in scripture especially when referencing the old testament. The Catechism of the Catholic Church acknowledge that homosexual orientation is not a matter of choice (2358 ). There is a difference made between orientation and sexual activity and that latter being considered immoral. American Catholic bishops have stated that "homosexuals, like everyone else, should not suffer from prejudice against their basic human rights. They have a right to respect, friendship, and justice. They should have an active role in the Christian community."(2)
    Any sexual act that is Irresponsible, promiscuous, or violent are seen as morally evil regardless of their sexual orientation. Other Catholic documents exist that restate the long held teaching concerning homosexual behavior but questions still remain on what to do with homosexuals in long term committed relationships.
    (2) To Live in Christ Jesus: A Pastoral Reflection on the Moral Life (Washington: USCC, 1976)

    Something to consider: The term "Eunuch" and referenced relationships in the bible between the following individuals:

    Ruth and Naomi
    David and Jonathan
    Daniel and Ashpenaz

    Some reading for you to consider:
    http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm
    http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bmar.htm

    Now taking in to consideration all over catholic teaching as it currently stand and the point made by the Catechism one can make a make an informed conscience decisions based on upon said issues and questions if combined with full faithful prayer and meditation.

    Like I told you in an earlier post in my own experience with my questions, fears and doubts. I don't know you or if you have ever had at any point in your life in a higher power to where you can see without an doubt that it was in fact divine. I can't and I won't push that. I subscribe to Providence. Believing that all that I need... all that is meant for me will come to me. Its like the example I gave you about talking to the priest and praying and reflecting on things about my own struggles and wanting so badly to have those answers given to me. I know plainly and out right that it is okay to be gay. It is okay for me to love another man. I believe that that man is my current boyfriend and even though while we are in the mist of turmoil... Its like Joel Osteen says the closer you are to what is meant for you the enemy will strike and its your job to stay faithful pulling forward staying true to yourself and God and you will prevail. What is in store for you God will give to you: you need only stay in faith. I asked God a very straight forward to question... one that I do cry over from time to time because I find myself still asking sometimes even though I know I shouldn't doubt what can I say... Im like Thomas i like to see things. I can't speak to the experiences your friends or even you have had because I know how they must have felt... I've had those same moments to, but I keep my faith in Christ and allow myself to subscribe to his providence that all things are possible if I believe and if I allow them to come in. I asked God to let my future spouse, be it a woman or a man, know that I loved and that I can't wait for the day that I meet them. Maybe I be the best husband I can be for them and never fall short. I can say that I got my answer and even though things are a little rocky right now I know in my heart, in my mind, and without a doubt that if I stay faithful I will see what is meant for me come to pass.

    (Addition) I wouldn't call the church backwards however a decision needs to be made on what to do with homosexuals whom are in committed monogamous relationships. Once that is actually settled than and only than would the issue be muted. Again because on arm of the church does one things believe me when I say many others disagree. Most catholic have no problem with an anything but marriage that gives the same rights and privileges to homosexual couples as marriage would but just isn't called marriage.
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    Oct 31, 2009 7:44 AM GMT
    I feel like we are due for another faith moving pope. Its about that time... the Last one was Blessed Pope John XXIII... the whom began and started V2. One of the great ways my college professor spoke of him after his election (as they figured oh well just elect him to get by until he dies and then get someone else to last a very long time). He was merely supposed to be a transitional pope. Professors said that and aid asked him what did he plan to do today as his first day of as Pope. He said "I am going to open the curtains and windows of this old church and let the holy spirit in." I'd say he did but still the old dose remain... then came the split within the catholic church (might want to read on Society for St. Pius X or SSPX aka What Mel Gibson believes in). You have to understand the riff between catholics of old teaching and new and that some of the new are being taught and forced old teaching and doctrine. V2 has only been around since the 60's and that changed so much around from the mass no longer being said in latin, the congregation actually facing forward toward the alter, the congregation having a more active role in the functions of the church and the mass. So much has changed and there are some part of it VII that are still being analyzed and decided on. One thing to consider is that a lot of old bishops that done subscribe to much of V2 are doing what they can to return the church its old ways simply because of Benedict XIV whom btw is considered to be a "transitional pope" and because he chose the name Benedict most people think he won't be able to do much but I have to admit Im a little worried. a lot of the work that John Paul II did is being undone by this pope and well... you are probably going to see a big divide once again in the near future. The Prophecy of the Popes given by Saint Malachy, is a list of 112 short latin phrases that describe each of the popes. After Benedict XIV there is the last one. Many suggest Peter will be the name that he will take on but I tend to believe he may choose another name. "Peter the Roman" and all that goes with it seems to be from a lot of anti-catholic rhetoric and derived from the words of Malachy.
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    Oct 31, 2009 10:07 AM GMT
    It is worth noting that the present day catholic church has swung back to a more conservative position than Vat II, as can be seen in the catechism from the early 90s, due to the influence of Von Balthasar and others (Ratzinger was closely associated with von B). It is opposed to gay marriage in it´s official documents.
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    Oct 31, 2009 1:40 PM GMT
    With no offense to any of the other Catholics on this post.The Second Vatican Council did not alter any of the moral teachings of the Church.Any documents issued by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops do not have the force of moral law.They are simply opinions stated by the body of US bishops which cannot contradict the Catechism of the Catholic Church.A Roman Catholics conscience must be a well formed conscience aka informed by the teachings of the Church.So if a Roman Catholic knows the Pope and bishops are saying Gay Marriage is not permissible and votes for it or speaks in favor of it and uses the excuse that their conscience is the basis for that.Then they are ignorant of Church teaching.I am hardly a saint but lets face it boys nobody if required to stay in a church whose teachings they reject.The Catholic Church is not going to change its moral teachings like the Anglicans.So for those holding out hope...dont hold your breath.Anyway with all the conservative Anglicans coming our way now there will be plenty of room in the Anglican pews.lol Thanks PS For those who want to research the teachings of the church try EWTN.com or USCCB.org
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    Oct 31, 2009 3:10 PM GMT
    Lostboy saidIt is worth noting that the present day catholic church has swung back to a more conservative position than Vat II

    I am happy someone else noticed. It is one of the biggest lies perpetuated is that Vat II was some hippie event where the Church became "cool". Nope, that isn't the case. It was simply an event in Church history of which the likelihood of another is rare unless they were to call Vat III and become even more conservative.
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    Nov 01, 2009 2:37 PM GMT
    Catholic teachings are not law. We have a constitution. Remind the church every time they try to debate anything from a Catho-centric position. The god/bible/church argument should be stopped the moment it is mentioned.
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    Nov 02, 2009 5:02 PM GMT
    WickedRyan saidWith no offense to any of the other Catholics on this post.The Second Vatican Council did not alter any of the moral teachings of the Church.Any documents issued by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops do not have the force of moral law.They are simply opinions stated by the body of US bishops which cannot contradict the Catechism of the Catholic Church.A Roman Catholics conscience must be a well formed conscience aka informed by the teachings of the Church.So if a Roman Catholic knows the Pope and bishops are saying Gay Marriage is not permissible and votes for it or speaks in favor of it and uses the excuse that their conscience is the basis for that.Then they are ignorant of Church teaching.I am hardly a saint but lets face it boys nobody if required to stay in a church whose teachings they reject.The Catholic Church is not going to change its moral teachings like the Anglicans.So for those holding out hope...dont hold your breath.Anyway with all the conservative Anglicans coming our way now there will be plenty of room in the Anglican pews.lol Thanks PS For those who want to research the teachings of the church try EWTN.com or USCCB.org


    Did you read anything of what I posted in regards to an "Informed Conscience" the above stated serve as guidance however when it comes to authority vs. the conscience you are to follow your conscience as that is your direct link with God. thats been the teaching to me even when I was a kid. I don't get this what the church says is the end of it BS cause thats not hardly anyway that I know it and furthermore not what any priest has ever said to me.
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    Nov 02, 2009 5:04 PM GMT
    Pinny said
    Lostboy saidIt is worth noting that the present day catholic church has swung back to a more conservative position than Vat II

    I am happy someone else noticed. It is one of the biggest lies perpetuated is that Vat II was some hippie event where the Church became "cool". Nope, that isn't the case. It was simply an event in Church history of which the likelihood of another is rare unless they were to call Vat III and become even more conservative.


    If you saw an article that I saw online yesterday about the current pope in talks with the SSPX... yeah Im convinced you could be very very right on that and in which case St. Malachy's predication of "Peter the Roman/aka The Last Pope" could be very very true.
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    Nov 02, 2009 5:09 PM GMT
    Ryan_Andrew said< in which case St. Malachy's predication of "Peter the Roman/aka The Last Pope" could be very very true.

    Interpretation pending. Die-hard conservative Catholics (on the verge of orthodoxy and tridentine masses) will interpret it as the end of the world.

    The possibility of Vat III should be worrisome for everyone, especially if we don't know what they are discussing.
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    Nov 02, 2009 9:48 PM GMT
    Well.. a V-III depending on whom were to begin working on it could be very scary. If the current pope is an indicator of where things are going... yeah. You might just be right but again... doesn't make it right. I have to think that Good John XIII did what he did for a reason and I have to believe that he truly want to let in the holy spirit and bridge longly held gaps and what not..
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    Nov 02, 2009 9:59 PM GMT
    Pinny said
    Ryan_Andrew said< in which case St. Malachy's predication of "Peter the Roman/aka The Last Pope" could be very very true.

    Interpretation pending. Die-hard conservative Catholics (on the verge of orthodoxy and tridentine masses) will interpret it as the end of the world.

    The possibility of Vat III should be worrisome for everyone, especially if we don't know what they are discussing.


    The only way Catholic teachings can have any power is - If people allow it to have power!
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    Nov 14, 2011 1:59 PM GMT
    Only because I was bored and looking over things I had posted... I have to share the story of St. Sergius and St. Bacchus whom were same-gender loving coupled roman soldiers. Since I learned about them... it's given me a whole new view on my faith. I'm such a happier person because and one thing I hope to have a guy that I can share my faith with... doesn't matter if he's catholic or not... just as long as we can share in the love of Christ. I thought it would be my Ex BF but I'll let time tell that one. I liked what he said..he wanted a partner that was seeking getting closer to God and in doing so as we both sought after God we would both become closer to one another. I hope one day I'll have that.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saints_Sergius_and_Bacchus
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    Nov 14, 2011 2:38 PM GMT
    She's hardly alone. The % of American Catholics who polled in favor of same-sex marriage is ahead of the general population.

    As someone stated, she'd be right at home in most our (Episcopal) churches and -- sadly -- she'll have no trouble finding a seat.
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    Nov 14, 2011 2:46 PM GMT
    i think most very catholic countries, like Argentina and Spain.. agree that marriage is not for religions to decide on.... it was the same rationale in Holland, which is ruled often by the Christian Democratic party.... the idea that the terms of marriage should be dictated by religion violates the terms of separation of church and state for these coutries
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    Nov 14, 2011 2:48 PM GMT
    Pinny said
    phemt saidWill Catholics ever just wake up and realize how outdated and backwards the Catholic church is!

    Might want to include a lot of other denominations and religions.


    Most Catholics in catholic countries dont take all this seriously.. (again, Spain is a good example, being completely catholic and one of the first to legalise gay marriage) its only the Catholics in non-Catholic countries that overexaggerate and radicalise church views.. pretty ironic
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    Nov 14, 2011 2:49 PM GMT
    Pinny said
    phemt saidWill Catholics ever just wake up and realize how outdated and backwards the Catholic church is!

    Might want to include a lot of other denominations and religions.


    Most Catholics in catholic countries dont take all this seriously.. (again, Spain is a good example, being completely catholic and one of the first to legalise gay marriage) its only the Catholics in non-Catholic countries that overexaggerate and radicalise church views.. pretty ironic
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    Nov 14, 2011 2:52 PM GMT
    Can we have this religious diatribe moved to the 'spirituality' forum?
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    Nov 14, 2011 2:56 PM GMT
    TropicalMark saidCan we have this religious diatribe moved to the 'spirituality' forum?


    lol, I wouldnt exactly peg this subject as "spirituality" as its more to do with religious politics .... but I see your point as people start pulling in church doctrine, which I think is rather a waste of time.. it should stay about politics not doctrine.. but apparently some ppl dont like that icon_rolleyes.gif
  • allanon

    Posts: 63

    Nov 14, 2011 4:41 PM GMT
    I am outraged but not at all surprised. Luckily, the true essence of the Catholic Church lies not in its heirarchy, but in the lay people, who tend to be more open to growth, loving, and thus truly religious.

    It's also a good thing that the only thing the church can do these days is ban someone from participation. Imagine those days when they could burn us at the stake! That would be enough to drive just about anyone back into the closet.