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Nov 01, 2009 6:32 PM GMT
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Nov 01, 2009 8:02 PM GMT
Thank goodness this got some prime time action. This discourse needs publicizing. I currently work on Middle easterners coming out experience in France (triply marginalized) and have used the Black community as a point of reference (since the American "coming-out" experience has standardized and even integrated itself into foreign coming-out vocab).
Thank you for sharing.
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Nov 01, 2009 8:15 PM GMT
Everything they say is nice and it is nice to hear about Obama's plans, reassuring. However, I'm not surprised by the size of the down low population, but the reason. They said it was fear of losing family and their "sisters" love. That's not a surprising reason since the black community is largely matriarchal, but the black men that I know and myself couldn't give a toss about our "sisters" or our bigoted closed minded community's opinion of us. I guess that's why we aren't "down low."
I won't go into why I don't give a fuck what my "sisters"/community thinks because I have some pretty abrasive views, but I will say my resolve about my views are empowered by knowing I have a new community, the gay community, which I love and believe is viable. After all, it saved me and I find that poetic, because in saving me and preventing me from being "down low", it, THE GAY COMMUNITY, saved that "sister" who could have died, our children's possible death, my own death, and another tragedy in the black community from happening. If it's done it for me, it has done it countless times before and gets zero recognition for doing it.
The men on the panel are right, there is zero respect. This is why I'm such an advocate for a stronger and more united gay community because the black community isn't the only one that treats it's gays with disdain and contempt. Those gays need a place to go that is in the light, unlike being "down low", closeted, hidden, are all in the dark where a attitudes of self worth and self protection are not fostered. The gay community is so much more than what some queens on here say it is, just a preference, just a ploy to get laid. Excuse me, it has always been and still is, a culture, a belief system, unity, and acceptance....a hell of a lot more than some of us get. The gay community is vital.
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Nov 01, 2009 8:23 PM GMT
Definitely agree with GG.
As a blk-mixed person I can relate to this on so many levels.
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Nov 01, 2009 8:42 PM GMT
This is why Barack Obama's support is so revolutionary. When you think about the civil rights movement from a African American perspective, religious leaders have always been at the center.
I suspect that many will dispute this but I wholeheartedly believe that while the black vote isn't significant in terms of number, the black voice is at the core of social consciousness in the US. It is not by mistake that we have this legislation being passed now that a black man is in office.
As I've said before in many personal discussions with friends, the gay community needs to make every effort to connect with the black community and anti-church rhetoric will never work.
We need to have dialouge with our preachers, grandparents, nephews, sisters, etc. We need to educate our brothers and sisters. We can't just turn our back on the community because we feel the bigotry. We need their support.
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Nov 01, 2009 8:52 PM GMT
I find this subject endlessly fascinating and frustrating. I am a biracial gay man, adopted as a preschooler and raised by a black family. Black men, by nature of the emasculating legacy of Jim Crow, have major masculinity issues that explain a great deal of this community's hostility to LGBT persons. The church is THE central institution of the black community, which is not exactly a great starting point for tolerance especially for black women, who as a whole are quite devout. It's been my experience that black men use religion as a cover for their homophobia, but their revulsion lies elsewhere. It's wrapped up in societal perceptions of gender roles more than anything. The majority of the black men I know, including my vast collection of cousins and my own brother, have very clearcut ideas of what constitutes manhood, and what constitutes womanhood. Intimacy with a man flies in the face of everything they believe in, and they therefore have rather violent reactions to homosexuality in their midst. Gay men are broadly perceived in the AA community as weak/feminine, which implies a sort of betrayal of the "strong black man" archetype.
The black gay men I knew in the past (I don't have any more black gay friends since they all died in the nineties and blacks are pretty rare here in Montana) could be grouped into two categories: screaming, simpering African Queens and tough guys on the DL. The effeminate ones were so brave to defy the monolith of the AA community. They were disowned by family and church (as I was). The DL guys I knew I had far less respect for, since they were actively deceiving wives, girlfriends and family. The fact that these two groups were so discrete says everything about accepted gender roles in the black community. Growing up in Texas as I did, I saw similar delineation in the Mexican American community also. These two minority groups have something in common - the insistent swagger of machismo, stemming from centuries of beat-down by whites. There is of course plenty of macho posturing by white men, but it seems to lack the intensity that men of color possess.
Our great great grandchildren will look back on this time in the history books and wonder what the fuss was all about. We are rapidly approaching a time when everyone on earth will be of mixed race, and same sex attraction will be a character trait of no import, and that's just fine with me...
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Nov 01, 2009 9:08 PM GMT
GuiltyGear said
I won't go into why I don't give a fuck what my "sisters"/community thinks because I have some pretty abrasive views, but I will say my resolve about my views are empowered by knowing I have a new community, the gay community, which I love and believe is viable. No no, elaborate, this is needed. Why does the clip put so much emphasis on the approbation of "black sisters"? If you can get rid of this false notion then you can liberate more and more people. I understand completely your notion of "a new gay family" But please please elaborate. I would sincerely appreciate it. |
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Nov 01, 2009 9:19 PM GMT
I never knew that the leading cause of death among black women 18-34 was HIV. But I cringe at the notion that it's due to "brothers on the down low". I'd like to see more information on this.
There is this perception, which I believe is largely based on popular black comedian's commentary, that black women have slim pickings when it comes to finding good black men. There is this notion that all the "good brothers" are either marrying outside of the race or gay. These are generalizations based on ignorance.
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Nov 01, 2009 9:32 PM GMT
I really like Don Lemon's reporting.
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Nov 01, 2009 9:46 PM GMT
joeyveras saidI never knew that the leading cause of death among black women 18-34 was HIV. But I cringe at the notion that it's due to "brothers on the down low". I'd like to see more information on this.
There is this perception, which I believer is largely based on popular black comedian's commentary, that black women have slim pickings when it comes to finding a good black men. There is this notion that all the "good brothers" are either marrying outside of the race or gay. These are generalizations based on ignorance. I totally agree my friend, The numbers are staggering but black woman also need to keep their legs closed, it's shameful seeing the crazyness on the maury show [per example] and how frivoulously sexual some open up to anything moving.. |
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Nov 01, 2009 10:07 PM GMT
Good report, thanks for posting this. I watched it with my man. It does seem like it is tougher in the black community to be out. He has been out since he was 13 though. lol.
I'm really happy Obama is FINALLY starting to address gay issues. I had been feeling left in the cold for a long time.
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Nov 01, 2009 10:22 PM GMT
My father asked me if i was gay when i was about 11yrs old, he was fine with it and had an uncle who was very DL talk to me.. My uncle told me how being black and gay wasnt going to be easy and how i'll need to be better at everything because he said theres nothing sadder than an uneducated homosexual. The words stung but i knew what he was getting at...
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Nov 01, 2009 10:34 PM GMT
joeyveras saidI never knew that the leading cause of death among black women 18-34 was HIV. But I cringe at the notion that it's due to "brothers on the down low". I'd like to see more information on this.
There is this perception, which I believe is largely based on popular black comedian's commentary, that black women have slim pickings when it comes to finding good black men. There is this notion that all the "good brothers" are either marrying outside of the race or gay. These are generalizations based on ignorance. I wouldn''t say they are generalizations based on ignorance. There is some truth. But black women and the black community has to accept the blame. The black community needs to teach black women that instead of looking for a good black man - they should look for a good man irrespective of the colour of his skin. But alas I fear this message would not go over well. Coz after all "black love" most be maintained at all cost |
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Nov 01, 2009 10:34 PM GMT
jgymnast733 saidjoeyveras saidI never knew that the leading cause of death among black women 18-34 was HIV. But I cringe at the notion that it's due to "brothers on the down low". I'd like to see more information on this.
There is this perception, which I believer is largely based on popular black comedian's commentary, that black women have slim pickings when it comes to finding a good black men. There is this notion that all the "good brothers" are either marrying outside of the race or gay. These are generalizations based on ignorance.
I totally agree my friend,
The numbers are staggering but black woman also need to keep their legs closed, it's shameful seeing the crazyness on the maury show [per example] and how frivoulously sexual some open up to anything moving.. Kinda of like some gay men, right? |
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Nov 01, 2009 10:41 PM GMT
RyanReBoRn saidjgymnast733 saidjoeyveras saidI never knew that the leading cause of death among black women 18-34 was HIV. But I cringe at the notion that it's due to "brothers on the down low". I'd like to see more information on this.
There is this perception, which I believer is largely based on popular black comedian's commentary, that black women have slim pickings when it comes to finding a good black men. There is this notion that all the "good brothers" are either marrying outside of the race or gay. These are generalizations based on ignorance.
I totally agree my friend,
The numbers are staggering but black woman also need to keep their legs closed, it's shameful seeing the crazyness on the maury show [per example] and how frivoulously sexual some open up to anything moving..
Kinda of like some gay men, right? What do you mean kinda? Don't you mean exactly like?  |
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Nov 01, 2009 10:55 PM GMT
I can agree with everything that's been said but there are alot times when I don't necessarily relate to the gay community either. I remember right here on RJ after the election there were alot of posts aimed towards blacks about the Prop 8 vote. I dunno, it's good to see a thread like this though.
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Nov 01, 2009 11:40 PM GMT
Interesting.
Stories such as this always reaffirm my central concept that homo people just need to come out. The more visible, the more undeniable, the more learning will occur, the comfortable people will become, the easier it will all be in the end.
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Nov 01, 2009 11:51 PM GMT
theantijock said Pardon the expression in this context, but how uppity to declare that embracing gays with the love of church and community will what, contain the spread of the disease from reaching out to unsuspecting str8 people? When will we tire of that? I don't think that's the crux of the message being communicated. It is more that the black community needs to be less condemning so that all members may live a more healthy and complete life |
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Nov 01, 2009 11:57 PM GMT
Blackguy4you saidtheantijock said Pardon the expression in this context, but how uppity to declare that embracing gays with the love of church and community will what, contain the spread of the disease from reaching out to unsuspecting str8 people? When will we tire of that?
I don't think that's the crux of the message being communicated. It is more that the black community needs to be less condemning so that all members may live a more healthy and complete life Actually, it totally came across the way theantijock stated. What proof is there that the statistics are directly related to brothers on the down low or homosexuality for that matter? |
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Nov 02, 2009 12:03 AM GMT
Blackguy4you saidjoeyveras saidI never knew that the leading cause of death among black women 18-34 was HIV. But I cringe at the notion that it's due to "brothers on the down low". I'd like to see more information on this.
There is this perception, which I believe is largely based on popular black comedian's commentary, that black women have slim pickings when it comes to finding good black men. There is this notion that all the "good brothers" are either marrying outside of the race or gay. These are generalizations based on ignorance.
I wouldn''t say they are generalizations based on ignorance. There is some truth. But black women and the black community has to accept the blame. The black community needs to teach black women that instead of looking for a good black man - they should look for a good man irrespective of the colour of his skin.
But alas I fear this message would not go over well. Coz after all "black love" most be maintained at all cost
Edit: No that won't go over well with some afrocentrists and their desire to be with only black men is totally valid. Also, I have doubts about whether you can teach or condition someone to be attracted to anyone. |
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Nov 02, 2009 12:16 AM GMT
joeyveras saidBlackguy4you saidjoeyveras saidI never knew that the leading cause of death among black women 18-34 was HIV. But I cringe at the notion that it's due to "brothers on the down low". I'd like to see more information on this.
There is this perception, which I believe is largely based on popular black comedian's commentary, that black women have slim pickings when it comes to finding good black men. There is this notion that all the "good brothers" are either marrying outside of the race or gay. These are generalizations based on ignorance.
I wouldn''t say they are generalizations based on ignorance. There is some truth. But black women and the black community has to accept the blame. The black community needs to teach black women that instead of looking for a good black man - they should look for a good man irrespective of the colour of his skin.
But alas I fear this message would not go over well. Coz after all "black love" most be maintained at all cost
No that won't go over well with afrocentrists and they're desire to be with only black men is totally valid. Also, I have doubts about whether you can teach or condition someone to be attracted to anyone. That's exactly what the problem is-afrocentrists. Just because you may happen to fall in love with someone of a different ethnicity does not mean you are less afro centric. How come other black people in other parts of the world tend not to have these sort of issues so much? I think being attracted to someone is conditioning. It can be broken. Is it easy, perhaps not, but it can be broken. When we stop conditioning our children and young to only think of a mate in terms of someone of their own ethnicity - then we will have less of these issues. |
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Nov 02, 2009 12:35 AM GMT
Blackguy4you saidjoeyveras saidBlackguy4you saidjoeyveras saidI never knew that the leading cause of death among black women 18-34 was HIV. But I cringe at the notion that it's due to "brothers on the down low". I'd like to see more information on this.
There is this perception, which I believe is largely based on popular black comedian's commentary, that black women have slim pickings when it comes to finding good black men. There is this notion that all the "good brothers" are either marrying outside of the race or gay. These are generalizations based on ignorance.
I wouldn''t say they are generalizations based on ignorance. There is some truth. But black women and the black community has to accept the blame. The black community needs to teach black women that instead of looking for a good black man - they should look for a good man irrespective of the colour of his skin.
But alas I fear this message would not go over well. Coz after all "black love" most be maintained at all cost
No that won't go over well with afrocentrists and they're desire to be with only black men is totally valid. Also, I have doubts about whether you can teach or condition someone to be attracted to anyone.
That's exactly what the problem is-afrocentrists. Just because you may happen to fall in love with someone of a different ethnicity does not mean you are less afro centric. How come other black people in other parts of the world tend not to have these sort of issues so much?
I think being attracted to someone is conditioning. It can be broken. Is it easy, perhaps not, but it can be broken.
When we stop conditioning our children and young to only think of a mate in terms of someone of their own ethnicity - then we will have less of these issues. OOH! You bring up a point for another thread I suppose. Are we conditioned to be attracted to a certain type, race, GENDER? Hmmm. It would be interesting to get others views on this. I have my doubts. I agree, afrocentrists can date outside their race and be just as afrocentric but that doesn't address the issue for those women who are just naturally attracted to only black men. |
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Nov 02, 2009 12:41 AM GMT
joeyveras saidBlackguy4you saidjoeyveras saidBlackguy4you saidjoeyveras saidI never knew that the leading cause of death among black women 18-34 was HIV. But I cringe at the notion that it's due to "brothers on the down low". I'd like to see more information on this.
There is this perception, which I believe is largely based on popular black comedian's commentary, that black women have slim pickings when it comes to finding good black men. There is this notion that all the "good brothers" are either marrying outside of the race or gay. These are generalizations based on ignorance.
I wouldn''t say they are generalizations based on ignorance. There is some truth. But black women and the black community has to accept the blame. The black community needs to teach black women that instead of looking for a good black man - they should look for a good man irrespective of the colour of his skin.
But alas I fear this message would not go over well. Coz after all "black love" most be maintained at all cost
o that won't go over well with afrocentrists and they're desire to be with only black men is totally valid. Also, I have doubts about whether you can teach or condition someone to be attracted to anyone.
That's exactly what the problem is-afrocentrists. Just because you may happen to fall in love with someone of a different ethnicity does not mean you are less afro centric. How come other black people in other parts of the world tend not to have these sort of issues so much?
I think being attracted to someone is conditioning. It can be broken. Is it easy, perhaps not, but it can be broken.
When we stop conditioning our children and young to only think of a mate in terms of someone of their own ethnicity - then we will have less of these issues.
OOH! You bring up a point for another thread I suppose. Are we conditioned to be attracted to a certain type, race, GENDER? Hmmm. It would be interesting to get others views on this. I have my doubts.
I agree, afrocentrists can date outside their race and be just as afrocentric but that doesn't address the issue for those women who are just naturally attracted to only black men. There's nothing wrong with being attracted to someone of your own ethnicty. We need and welcome such. But surely there's enough room for everyone on the spectrum. What I'm talking about is more the idea that if you are attracted to someone of a different ethnicity that you are someone letting down your own "race". This is a common held belief in many ethnicities and especially so among American Blacks. That's why surveys show that blacks are less likely of all ethnicities to date outside. Even if it means that they will in all probability end up alone. |
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Nov 02, 2009 12:55 AM GMT
Blackguy4you saidRyanReBoRn saidjgymnast733 saidjoeyveras saidI never knew that the leading cause of death among black women 18-34 was HIV. But I cringe at the notion that it's due to "brothers on the down low". I'd like to see more information on this.
There is this perception, which I believer is largely based on popular black comedian's commentary, that black women have slim pickings when it comes to finding a good black men. There is this notion that all the "good brothers" are either marrying outside of the race or gay. These are generalizations based on ignorance.
I totally agree my friend,
The numbers are staggering but black woman also need to keep their legs closed, it's shameful seeing the crazyness on the maury show [per example] and how frivoulously sexual some open up to anything moving..
Kinda of like some gay men, right?
What do you mean kinda? Don't you mean exactly like? Not me ya'll [looking away shy]..  |
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Nov 02, 2009 12:57 AM GMT
Blackguy4you saidjoeyveras saidBlackguy4you saidjoeyveras saidBlackguy4you saidjoeyveras saidI never knew that the leading cause of death among black women 18-34 was HIV. But I cringe at the notion that it's due to "brothers on the down low". I'd like to see more information on this.
There is this perception, which I believe is largely based on popular black comedian's commentary, that black women have slim pickings when it comes to finding good black men. There is this notion that all the "good brothers" are either marrying outside of the race or gay. These are generalizations based on ignorance.
I wouldn''t say they are generalizations based on ignorance. There is some truth. But black women and the black community has to accept the blame. The black community needs to teach black women that instead of looking for a good black man - they should look for a good man irrespective of the colour of his skin.
But alas I fear this message would not go over well. Coz after all "black love" most be maintained at all cost
There's nothing wrong with being attracted to someone of your own ethnicty. We need and welcome such. But surely there's enough room for everyone on the spectrum. What I'm talking about is more the idea that if you are attracted to someone of a different ethnicity that you are someone letting down your own "race". This is a common held belief in many ethnicities and
especially so among American Blacks. That's why surveys show that blacks are less likely of all ethnicities to date outside. Even if it means that they will in all probability end up alone.
No that won't go over well with afrocentrists and they're desire to be with only black men is totally valid. Also, I have doubts about whether you can teach or condition someone to be attracted to anyone.
That's exactly what the problem is-afrocentrists. Just because you may happen to fall in love with someone of a different ethnicity does not mean you are less afro centric. How come other black people in other parts of the world tend not to have these sort of issues so much?
I think being attracted to someone is conditioning. It can be broken. Is it easy, perhaps not, but it can be broken.
When we stop conditioning our children and young to only think of a mate in terms of someone of their own ethnicity - then we will have less of these issues.
OOH! You bring up a point for another thread I suppose. Are we conditioned to be attracted to a certain type, race, GENDER? Hmmm. It would be interesting to get others views on this. I have my doubts.
I agree, afrocentrists can date outside their race and be just as afrocentric but that doesn't address the issue for those women who are just naturally attracted to only black men. Hey Bud! disregard my email. I found your last post (bold above). We're talking about two different things. haha! |
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Nov 02, 2009 1:13 AM GMT
jgymnast733 said
The numbers are staggering but black woman also need to keep their legs closed, it's shameful seeing the crazyness on the maury show [per example] and how frivoulously sexual some open up to anything moving.. Ok, when someone mentioned generalizations based on ignorance, I think that includes the above. If you really have built up a knowledge about the sexual practices of black females based on the Maury Povich show and would really express that in here, you need to fall off of that surfboard. Watch the video again, DOWN LOW is a deception by gay black men and it goes deeper than them cheating on their girlfriends and wives with men. For men on the down low, unprotected sex with their wife/girlfriend is desirable. It helps support the fantasy, they almost need to do it. Feeding the fantasy is also the reason men on the down low don't particularly use protection with their male partners. It's because of the shame and emotions connected to the act, a condom or abstaining from sex with women becomes a constant reminder to the man that he is gay and all of the negative things gay stands for. Because these men are so secretive, they veil themselves to a large pool of potential sexual partners which opens them up to more of a likely hood of becoming infected : because the pool is so small if AIDS infects one, it travels to the rest quite fast. It's like a marginally strong bomb going off in a small room, the devastation is magnified in comparison to a larger pool/room facing the same threat. You said, "and how frivolously sexual some open up to anything moving.." No, and you learned this by watching a scripted tv tabloid show. Do you even know many black/people females? You generalize here in the same way people generalize about you and I'm sure they think you hop on anything male that moves and will bring the scourge of infection down on yourself. True, I've got issues (bitterness) with my community, but none of it is born of generalization, but experiencing and knowing. It's still wrong, but what you said is, well, ignorant. |
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Nov 02, 2009 1:31 AM GMT
Guilty.... I really like your insights. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this subject.
I do have a question.... Do you really think that the black guys are really worried about what their black sisters think? Because, don't you see black men dating white women? Isn't that a slap in the face to them too?
With that being said, I think it's a "cop out" for them to say they are worried what their sisters think.... I really question if they really care.
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Nov 02, 2009 1:32 AM GMT
This men on the DL spreading HIV happened back in the very early 80s in largely white society here in Canada. It was only 8 years after the Canadian psychiatric think tanks, in 1973 decreed that being gay was longer a sexual deviancy that required treatment, institutionalization and possibly even partial lobotomy! Yikes! Bisexuals and DL gays. Bear in mind there was another problem. Using a condom was considered a little nutty - that was for birth control only, when a woman couldn't take the pill because of other health problems. As for black society and gays - try Jamaican black society and gays. OMG. "Jamaica has a history of entrenched homophobia and violent attacks on gay men and women." No effing kidding. check this out, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/3653140.stm "But homophobia in Jamaica goes far beyond songs lyrics, with gay men and women "beaten, cut, burned, raped and shot on account of their sexuality", according to Amnesty International. It says while no official statistics are available, according to published reports at least 30 gay men are believed to have been murdered in Jamaica since 1997. And at least five Jamaicans have been granted asylum in the UK in the last two years because their lives had been threatened as a result of their sexual identity" Man, I'm glad Mom and Dad left Jamaica before I was born! -Doug |
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Nov 02, 2009 1:36 AM GMT
Bottom line ( no pun intended); homophobia kills straights.
......ironic, isn't it?
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Nov 02, 2009 1:44 AM GMT
gsh1964 saidGuilty.... I really like your insights. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this subject.
I do have a question.... Do you really think that the black guys are really worried about what their black sisters think? Because, don't you see black men dating white women? Isn't that a slap in the face to them too?
With that being said, I think it's a "cop out" for them to say they are worried what their sisters think.... I really question if they really care. Anectodtally, I have found with my AA relatives that white women are the Holy Grail for a certain kind of black man. The guys that are the angriest at the world for the station to which they were born seem to prize a white girlfriend as the ulitmate triumph over white men... |
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Nov 02, 2009 1:44 AM GMT
Pinny saidGuiltyGear said
I won't go into why I don't give a fuck what my "sisters"/community thinks because I have some pretty abrasive views, but I will say my resolve about my views are empowered by knowing I have a new community, the gay community, which I love and believe is viable.
No no, elaborate, this is needed. Why does the clip put so much emphasis on the approbation of "black sisters"? If you can get rid of this false notion then you can liberate more and more people. I understand completely your notion of "a new gay family"
. I didn't elaborate because a lot of my disapproval is based on anger and a feeling of injustice, it's somewhat like bigotry in itself except it is based on real life experiences and not generalizations. That "sister" mentioned in the video are the matriarchy of the black community. The fathers in a lot of cases leave and the women become the main sources of socialization, discipline, and parental guidance. It is because of this that many black men care a great deal what the women in their families think of them. It's just my experience has been that this black matriarchy is OVERBEARING, unrealistic, and hypocritical. In the absence of a man, something else takes his place, a jaded and hard woman who has no idea how to raise a boy, so she either becomes apathetic of the boy and concentrates on the girls or tries, but often affects a masculinity and hardness that is not affective. What I just said is getting into the abrasive beliefs I have that may not reflect every one's experience or unfortunately, generalizations, which is why I didn't elaborate. The jaded bitter aspect of the black female matriarchy, I think is very real and I felt from very young and now I still feel it (some would say I reflect it). The men are often selfish and leave, which leaves the female to take the brunt of the parental responsibilities, which I think transfers over to hostility for the male children. In a lot of ways this hostility is directed at the male in the form of religious teachings that basically program the male to believe he is rotten at the core, bad, and destined to do bad things. The matriarchy is strict on him to a fault, while letting the girls skate on it to a point. What happens is the male grows up hard and disciplined, but not happy, amicable, or willing to use that discipline in a constructive way. He puts it all into selfish endeavors, which do not include a wife and child. The women who, as I already mentioned, could stand to be more disciplined, give into and entertain the ill intentions of the men. As mothers they rely on religion as a discipline method but, I THINK, fail to follow their on prescriptions closely which makes them hypocrites. Now hearing that I called black women hypocritical might make members of my community angry because the dysfunctional belief of choice is that black women are strong and infallible because they raise the kids alone. To me, that is just circumstances, not that they've risen beyond the circumstances like they should. |
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Nov 02, 2009 1:48 AM GMT
GuiltyGear saidPinny saidGuiltyGear said
I won't go into why I don't give a fuck what my "sisters"/community thinks because I have some pretty abrasive views, but I will say my resolve about my views are empowered by knowing I have a new community, the gay community, which I love and believe is viable.
No no, elaborate, this is needed. Why does the clip put so much emphasis on the approbation of "black sisters"? If you can get rid of this false notion then you can liberate more and more people. I understand completely your notion of "a new gay family"
.
I didn't elaborate because a lot of my disapproval is based on anger and a feeling of injustice, it's somewhat like bigotry in itself except it is based on real life experiences and not generalizations. That "sister" mentioned in the video are the matriarchy of the black community.
The fathers in a lot of cases leave and the women become the main sources of socialization, discipline, and parental guidance. It is because of this that many black men care a great deal what the women in their families think of them. It's just my experience has been that this black matriarchy is OVERBEARING, unrealistic, and hypocritical.
In the absence of a man, something else takes his place, a jaded and hard woman who has no idea how to raise a boy, so she either becomes apathetic of the boy and concentrates on the girls or tries, but often affects a masculinity and hardness that is not affective. What I just said is getting into the abrasive beliefs I have that may not reflect every
one's experience or unfortunately, generalizations, which is why I didn't elaborate.
The jaded bitter aspect of the black female matriarchy, I think is very real and I felt from very young and now I still feel it (some would say I reflect it). The men are often selfish and leave, which leaves the female to take the brunt of the parental responsibilities, which I think transfers over to hostility for the male children.
In a lot of ways this hostility is directed at the male in the form of religious teachings that basically program the male to believe he is rotten at the core, bad, and destined to do bad things. The matriarchy is strict on him to a fault, while letting the girls skate on it to a point. What happens is the male grows up hard and disciplined, but not happy, amicable, or willing to use that discipline in a constructive way.
He puts it all into selfish endeavors, which do not include a wife and child. The women who, as I already mentioned, could stand to be more disciplined, give into and entertain the ill intentions of the men. As mothers they rely on religion as a discipline method but, I THINK, fail to follow their on prescriptions closely which makes them hypocrites.
Now hearing that I called black women hypocritical might make members of my community angry because the dysfunctional belief of choice is that black women are strong and infallible because they raise the kids alone. To me, that is just circumstances, not that they've risen beyond the circumstances like they should. Wow. That was almost too real. You are speaking some truth here, brother... |
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Nov 02, 2009 2:19 AM GMT
jarhead5536 saidGuiltyGear saidPinny saidGuiltyGear said
Now hearing that I called black women hypocritical might make members of my community angry because the dysfunctional belief of choice is that black women are strong and infallible because they raise the kids alone. To me, that is just circumstances, not that they've risen beyond the circumstances like they should.
Wow. That was almost too real. You are speaking some truth here, brother...
Are you all speaking on the black community as a whole now or just your own experiences? |
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Nov 02, 2009 2:31 AM GMT
I speaking on a bit of both
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Nov 02, 2009 2:32 AM GMT
gsh1964 saidGuilty.... I really like your insights. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this subject.
I do have a question.... Do you really think that the black guys are really worried about what their black sisters think? Because, don't you see black men dating white women? Isn't that a slap in the face to them too?
With that being said, I think it's a "cop out" for them to say they are worried what their sisters think.... I really question if they really care. "sisters" could mean family too. And I don't think the dating of white women is a slap in the face, but more of a consequence of certain circumstances. I just wrote a post outlining that I think black males feel mistreated by the black female matriarchy because it basically disciplines them, but in an excessive manner and because it "misunderstands" them. There is a reason why a man is needed in a home, because he knows what a boy is and needs. I say matriarchy because the fathers leave and the women become in charge, hard and jaded, but also, I believe undisciplined themselves because the matriarchy takes it easy on them and reams the boys instead. As romantic adults, both parties are spurned and I think the migration of black men to white women and more now, black females to white men is just a consequence of that tumultuous past. If you haven't tired of my hypothesizing yet, I think for black females who were raised with a misunderstanding about black men and a propensity to be undisciplined themselves, a white man becomes the missing link that grounds them and simultaneously is easier to understand because a white man (most likely) had a father and is the embodiment of the unrealistic adult, the female matriarchy expected the black male to be. For the black male, a white women does not look like the black female matriarchy and becomes a suitable recipient of that latent discipline I mentioned that black males deny black women. A white women isn't biased and won't judge him and will take the time to understand him. As a dark skinned black man watching this happen, I sometimes feel in the future, my skin color will cease to exist. |
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Nov 02, 2009 2:42 AM GMT
I got so bored listening to it I dozed off  Certainly not even close to inspiring as the speech Obama made at the HRC Diner on Oct. 10th |
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Nov 02, 2009 2:45 AM GMT
Barricade said
Are you all speaking on the black community as a whole now or just your own experiences? I make a point to say "I think" and remind folks that these are my opinions based on experience. Personally, I knew very few black families growing up with a father present so that limits me on what I can speak on unless I generalize. What I said about married black men on the down low came from research I accrued from watching documentaries, news cast on the subject, and researching the subject in college. I don't like to generalize so I don't, but I almost wish someone with "sunnier" experiences would chime in, but I think my experiences represent many more black men than that "sunnier" person's would. If it didn't, the black community wouldn't be plagued with dysfunction, single family homes, AIDS/HIV, and large incarceration rates. My favorite saying is, "the proof is in the pudding," I find it distasteful to be this candid because the truth I hear myself talk about ain't appetizing, but I feel that knowledge is power. |
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Nov 02, 2009 2:47 AM GMT
SovereignNemesis saidI got so bored listening to it I dozed off
Certainly not even close to inspiring as the speech Obama made at the HRC Diner on Oct. 10th That's ok - quite understandable. We all have things that perk our interests. Heck I find most of what shows on television about 98% absolutely boring and asinine and simply cannot relate and so I don't watch em either. |
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Nov 02, 2009 2:51 AM GMT
lol GuiltyGear, "As a dark skinned black man watching this happen, I sometimes feel in the future, my skin color will cease to exist."
It's just a skin colour. Being of very mixed ancestry, I think that interracial is the way to go.
-Doug
PS your posts have been insightful and an incredible read. THANK YOU!
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Nov 02, 2009 2:54 AM GMT
The Black Community, most especially its spiritual leaders, have a great deal to teach us about how to survive and claim dignity in a hostile environment. We should listen more.
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Nov 02, 2009 3:03 AM GMT
GuiltyGear saidBarricade said
Are you all speaking on the black community as a whole now or just your own experiences?
I make a point to say "I think" and remind folks that these are my opinions based on experience. Personally, I knew very few black families growing up with a father present so that limits me on what I can speak on unless I generalize. What I said about married black men on the down low came from research I accrued from watching documentaries, news cast on the subject, and researching the subject in college. I don't like to generalize so I don't, but I almost wish someone with "sunnier" experiences would chime in, but I think my experiences represent many more black men than that "sunnier" person's would. If it didn't, the black community wouldn't be plagued with dysfunction, single family homes, AIDS/HIV, and large incarceration rates. My favorite saying is, "the proof is in the pudding," I find it distasteful to be this candid because the truth I hear myself talk about ain't appetizing, but I feel that knowledge is power.
With much respect I don't identify with your posts, GG. But I'm not sure where to start chipping away at them or if it's even sensible to try to provide a sunnier side LOL. I'm frustrated by them even though you clearly state they are generalizations based on your experiece. I'm mostly frustrated with the fact that your experiences led you to feel this way. It's disheartening. I'm still chewing on it. However, I feel it's unhealthy to generalize this way and call it truth. |
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Nov 02, 2009 3:20 AM GMT
GuiltyGear saidBarricade said
Are you all speaking on the black community as a whole now or just your own experiences?
I make a point to say "I think" and remind folks that these are my opinions based on experience. Personally, I knew very few black families growing up with a father present so that limits me on what I can speak on unless I generalize. What I said about married black men on the down low came from research I accrued from watching documentaries, news cast on the subject, and researching the subject in college. I don't like to generalize so I don't, but I almost wish someone with "sunnier" experiences would chime in, but I think my experiences represent many more black men than that "sunnier" person's would. If it didn't, the black community wouldn't be plagued with dysfunction, single family homes, AIDS/HIV, and large incarceration rates. My favorite saying is, "the proof is in the pudding," I find it distasteful to be this candid because the truth I hear myself talk about ain't appetizing, but I feel that knowledge is power.
This hasn't been my experience. I'll have to mull what you've said some more. You've said quite a bit  |
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Nov 02, 2009 7:28 AM GMT
GG, I agree with you. I was one of those kids that grew up minus a father figure until I was 12. My mother's sister lived next door to us, and her husband was the worst example of a black man. He cheated on her, beat her, used drugs, and was a straight up asshole to both me and my brother saying that we were going to grow up and be sissies.
My stepdad is a great guy, and there are a lot of qualities that I took on from him.
But back to what you were saying, I do see the black mothers that are jaded and bitter at their situation. My mother was one of them. My brother and I often found ourselves at the end of her wrath for no reason. And yes, the religious part was there. We went to church camp (church for about 8 hours out of the day for a week) every summer. We were often told we were going to hell for whatever reason. Needless to say, my brother and I both ended up gay.
They talk about gay men on the down-low, which is a concept that I despise because it has become some cliche. Question: how many HIV transmissions came from guys that were incarcerated? It bothers me that it is something that is never brought up.
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Nov 02, 2009 7:35 AM GMT
All I can say from my vantage point is that it is a personal concept of "community" that dictates the inherent rule structure that you follow and believe in. I learned long ago that equality can only be reached by looking forward. our resentments steeped in the black community serve nothing except to reduce the quality, caliber and effectiveness of our lives. Whatever drives someone to be "on the DL" is of no concern to me. I personally never had any illusions that it was going to be easy or free-going to be a black man who happens to be gay. I'm proud of the battles I've chosen, the times I've been the bigger person and I truly believe that the choices I've made led me to a place in life I could not have gotten to while carrying the weight of the black community's judgment. And as for not turning our backs on "the community" because we need them? First and foremost community is a poorly-lit two way street. We often talk about the benefits but the downside is it enables us to generalize and judge and feel justified in "their" responsibility for our unhappiness. The simple truth is there isn't just one way to be black or gay. listen to all the blanket terms we use to make ourselves comfortable with the judgment of others. DownLow, Afrocentric, the hypocritical black matriarchy. Are there anthropological and sociological patterns. Sure but they don't encompass gray area. When was the last time you turned on the tv and saw anything about a black family "making it work" beside the Obamas? It happens every day it's just not great for ratings. Black mother's doing the best they know how and failing on some levels doesn't assuage your responsibility to decide what kind of man you want to be. Whether or not that choice includes forgiving the people who've hurt you is a personal, not community-based.
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Nov 02, 2009 9:01 AM GMT
[quote][cite]thatguy520 said[/cite]All I can say from my vantage point is that it is a personal concept of "community" that dictates the inherent rule structure that you follow and believe in.
I agree with that. But community for some is just for associative reasons and not activism. We need more activists. The point that I am making is that black gay men must step up and have dialogue with those people in our circles. For the most part, we are not present when it comes to fighting for gay rights. You may identify with the gay community or the black community or both or none. However, if we wish to be apart of progress and the proliferation of human rights for others it would be wise to engage in dialogue with those people that stand in the way of that progress. That's why I say we can't turn our back. Particularly, considering black gay men like you and I have a unique opportunity. We can be that bridge so to speak.
I learned long ago that equality can only be reached by looking forward.
When it comes to equality, we must keep our head on a swivel if you ask me.
The simple truth is there isn't just one way to be black or gay.
Of course their isn't! And that very fact (our diversity) empowers us and provides us with leverage.
listen to all the blanket terms we use to make ourselves comfortable with the judgment of others. DownLow, Afrocentric, the hypocritical black matriarchy.
I'm sorry, I don't see these as lables we made up for ourselves nor do they make me feel comfortable. These are terms that speak to a real climate in the community. Do they represent the majority of the community? That's still up for debate.
Black mother's doing the best they know how and failing on some levels doesn't assuage your responsibility to decide what kind of man you want to be. Whether or not that choice includes forgiving the people who've hurt you is a personal, not community-based.
I agree but I don't think that GG is trying to dismiss those who've wronged him or pinning it against the black community. I think he has formed his opinions about the community based on personal experience which we all do. I respect him for being naked with his feelings. It's unfortunate that what I see as an exception in my life is the norm in his reality. Still, he has a voice and it's vital. Dialogue is crucial. That is my point in it's entirety. Out and proud black gay men like us must stand up and be accounted for. Whether it's in your personal life or out in streets starting rallies, we must be active and face that opposition we are in touch with head on.[/quote]
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Nov 02, 2009 11:00 AM GMT
joey,
All too often as gay black men we feel accepted by neither the gay or black community so which battle are we to fight? The gay community is just as guilty of having it's own ideals with repercussions for men of color. I truly believe that equality will happen and that a change is going to come BUT i also believe that it's not going to come before it's time. Should we have it now? yes. does that change the reality of the situation and what it will take to push through all of the barriers that stand in our way? not in the least. We are aware of what is fair and right and I don't feel the need to keep my head on a swivel because the majority of the change that needs to occur in this country won't take place in the streets, but rather behind the curtain of a voting booths. Besides, all that activism sadly doesn't leave a lot of room for living your life and living my life is my primary objective. If, in the pursuit of said objective, I happen to be a "bridge" great. I've no plans to run around putting out fires in either community for the sake of an agenda other that my own.
We don't make up these labels? If you are black, bisexual and closeted about your relationships with men, does that mean you are "on the downlow?" What if you are gay and not out and you don't date women? Or does the terminology simply require that you don't use condoms to prove some point about how manly you are? Discussing whether or not someone can keep their membership in the Afrocentric club if they date outside their race. Can a person who's not African-American be Afrocentric? Moreover, what do any of the answers to these questions in another person have to do with your life? They all beg of people to answer for their emotional predilections and predispositions as though they were rock solid fact. I don't think these terms speak to a climate so much as they provide us evidence for the things we feel. That's really what it comes down to. We all have feelings that are the basic for the emotional reality we call our own. It's simply unrealistic to act as though your inherent rules should or do apply across the board for any grouping of people. My personal experiences do not speak for "the black man" and nor do anyone's experiences speak for me. I think equality can only come when we stop concerning ourselves with further breaking down the groupings and subsets and focus on the fact that we're all just people.
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Nov 02, 2009 1:32 PM GMT
thatguy520 saidjoey,
All too often as gay black men we feel accepted by neither the gay or black community so which battle are we to fight?
Hey man, I appreciate your responses in the forum here. Personally, I don't feel connected to either community myself. My agenda is the one that concerns me. I'm a black and gay (actually I'm black/native american and gay. I must've done something wrong in the past life haha!) so I don't claim to have an agenda that coincides with the movement projected by either community. Instead I push for the affect that I want to see concerning me and I'm hopeful that it benefits others like me. I'm not saying go around screaming to everyone. I'm saying stand up and be the change that you wish to see in the world as it relates to your agenda (issues that concern you). While gay black men have a unique position, our voice is totally void on both sides of the issue.
The gay community is just as guilty of having it's own ideals with repercussions for men of color.
True but that doesn't mean we can't stand for ourselves.
I truly believe that equality will happen and that a change is going to come BUT i also believe that it's not going to come before it's time.
The time IS now.
Should we have it now? yes. does that change the reality of the situation and what it will take to push through all of the barriers that stand in our way? not in the least.
By engaging in dialouge we are in effect breaking down those barriers.
We are aware of what is fair and right and I don't feel the need to keep my head on a swivel because the majority of the change that needs to occur in this country won't take place in the streets, but rather behind the curtain of a voting booths.
I was being cute with that comment LOL but really change happens before we even step foot in the voting booth.
Besides, all that activism sadly doesn't leave a lot of room for living your life and living my life is my primary objective.
Living your life is one way of being an activist. As opposed to someone who is living in denial or secret or betrayal (more on that later).
If, in the pursuit of said objective, I happen to be a "bridge" great. I've no plans to run around putting out fires in either community for the sake of an agenda other that my own.
If we're truly living for our own agenda, we''ll be putting out fires in any community and we'd do it without realizing it. And we'd seize the opportunity to have dialogue and break down barriers when the opportunity presents itself.
We don't make up these labels? If you are black, bisexual and closeted about your relationships with men, does that mean you are "on the downlow?"
Yes It does. If you're not open and honest with your sexual partners, what else can you be?
What if you are gay and not out and you don't date women?
Being on the downlow speaks specifically to those men who are being deceptive. This does not apply.
Can a person who's not African-American be Afrocentric?
Absolutely, this term is being dragged out a bit since I introduced it to merely point out that there are women who only have eyes for black men in a discussion with BlackGuy4You.
Moreover, what do any of the answers to these questions in another person have to do with your life?
We're all in it together. No man is an island onto himself.
They all beg of people to answer for their emotional predilections and predispositions as though they were rock solid fact. I don't think these terms speak to a climate so much as they provide us evidence for the things we feel.
I believe they the serve that too.
That's really what it comes down to. We all have feelings that are the basic for the emotional reality we call our own. It's simply unrealistic to act as though your inherent rules should or do apply across the board for any grouping of people.
We all want equality. There's nothing unique about that.
My personal experiences do not speak for "the black man" and nor do anyone's experiences speak for me.
No your experience most definitely speak for a black man as you are black. Just because it doesn't coincide with any so-called black agenda doesn't mean your experiences are not a valid contribution to the collective consciouness. As a matter of fact, being black, having a thought, and standing up to be heard is the only requirement for speaking for a black man. I think equality can only come when we stop concerning ourselves with further breaking down the groupings and subsets and focus on the fact that we're all just people. .[/quote] I believe that as well. All I'm saying is don't keep that to yourself. Tell that to the world. |
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Nov 02, 2009 3:30 PM GMT
Thank you so much for posting this clip Tryandbuy!!!!
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Nov 02, 2009 4:12 PM GMT
Granted this is only my opinion, but religion seems to be at the noxious heart of so much that is wrong with the "community". I put it in quotes because from class to habits to social patterns, the "black community" is just as diverse and un-monolithic as any other. Unfortunately, religion was the pill the slaves swallowed from the masters to placate their revulsion with the status quo, or in other words, to make them accept their abjectivity. The really disgusting thing is how religion has become such a central part of the community, re-inforcing gender roles which is really what the revulsion with homosexuality is about. A path out of this toxic maze of homophobia within the community is for it to realize that there have always been gays in the community, that it's not some abberation, and that we're not going away. Also, we'd do well to stop listening to our "pastors" who buffer our phobias and abjection and do nothing, if we are honest, to deal with the socialogical issues which continue to plague African Americans (and yes, my spite is for the church more than anything, sorry if I offend anyone).
2 cents.
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Nov 02, 2009 4:26 PM GMT
Why was the audience laughing when he said "shame"? Weird.
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Nov 02, 2009 7:27 PM GMT
muscles4muscles saidWhy was the audience laughing when he said "shame"? Weird. There was laughter and clapping. The guy that made the comment is a hip hop figure. I think there was a sense of relief for some and machismo for others but I'm not sure where they are. Whether it's a church or a college. One thing to note, there aren't any gay black men in this "roundtable", which is very disturbing to me but I haven't had a chance to see the entire report. |
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Nov 02, 2009 7:39 PM GMT
joeyveras saidmuscles4muscles saidWhy was the audience laughing when he said "shame"? Weird.
There was laughter and clapping. The guy that made the comment is a hip hop figure. I think there was a sense of relief for some and machismo for others but I'm not sure where they are. Whether it's a church or a college. One thing to note, there aren't any gay black men in this "roundtable", which is very disturbing to me but I haven't had a chance to see the entire report. Wasn't the guy with the shaved head gay? He looked gay to me. |
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Nov 02, 2009 7:43 PM GMT
ChojinXI saidGranted this is only my opinion, but religion seems to be at the noxious heart of so much that is wrong with the "community". I put it in quotes because from class to habits to social patterns, the "black community" is just as diverse and un-monolithic as any other. Unfortunately, religion was the pill the slaves swallowed from the masters to placate their revulsion with the status quo, or in other words, to make them accept their abjectivity. The really disgusting thing is how religion has become such a central part of the community, re-inforcing gender roles which is really what the revulsion with homosexuality is about. A path out of this toxic maze of homophobia within the community is for it to realize that there have always been gays in the community, that it's not some abberation, and that we're not going away. Also, we'd do well to stop listening to our "pastors" who buffer our phobias and abjection and do nothing, if we are honest, to deal with the socialogical issues which continue to plague African Americans (and yes, my spite is for the church more than anything, sorry if I offend anyone).
2 cents. I think you are being too hard on religion. Black people did not swallow the pill of religion to keep them in servitude. I would argue just the opposite. It was a belief in God that told them that no matter what they would pull thru. I do agree with you that pastors in the community should do more. They should call out the misogynist amongst us and should speak to our young men and women about the value of getting married, the value of education and keeping their damn legs closed as a start. |
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Nov 02, 2009 7:57 PM GMT
Blackguy4you saidChojinXI saidGranted this is only my opinion, but religion seems to be at the noxious heart of so much that is wrong with the "community". I put it in quotes because from class to habits to social patterns, the "black community" is just as diverse and un-monolithic as any other. Unfortunately, religion was the pill the slaves swallowed from the masters to placate their revulsion with the status quo, or in other words, to make them accept their abjectivity. The really disgusting thing is how religion has become such a central part of the community, re-inforcing gender roles which is really what the revulsion with homosexuality is about. A path out of this toxic maze of homophobia within the community is for it to realize that there have always been gays in the community, that it's not some abberation, and that we're not going away. Also, we'd do well to stop listening to our "pastors" who buffer our phobias and abjection and do nothing, if we are honest, to deal with the socialogical issues which continue to plague African Americans (and yes, my spite is for the church more than anything, sorry if I offend anyone).
2 cents.
I think you are being too hard on religion. Black people did not swallow the pill of religion to keep them in servitude. I would argue just the opposite. It was a belief in God that told them that no matter what they would pull thru.
I do agree with you that pastors in the community should do more. They should call out the misogynist amongst us and should speak to our young men and women about the value of getting married, the value of education and keeping their damn legs closed as a start.
I've never heard of Farrah Gray coming out. He's known for becoming a millionaire at age 14. |
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Nov 02, 2009 7:59 PM GMT
joeyveras saidBlackguy4you saidChojinXI saidGranted this is only my opinion, but religion seems to be at the noxious heart of so much that is wrong with the "community". I put it in quotes because from class to habits to social patterns, the "black community" is just as diverse and un-monolithic as any other. Unfortunately, religion was the pill the slaves swallowed from the masters to placate their revulsion with the status quo, or in other words, to make them accept their abjectivity. The really disgusting thing is how religion has become such a central part of the community, re-inforcing gender roles which is really what the revulsion with homosexuality is about. A path out of this toxic maze of homophobia within the community is for it to realize that there have always been gays in the community, that it's not some abberation, and that we're not going away. Also, we'd do well to stop listening to our "pastors" who buffer our phobias and abjection and do nothing, if we are honest, to deal with the socialogical issues which continue to plague African Americans (and yes, my spite is for the church more than anything, sorry if I offend anyone).
2 cents.
I think you are being too hard on religion. Black people did not swallow the pill of religion to keep them in servitude. I would argue just the opposite. It was a belief in God that told them that no matter what they would pull thru.
I do agree with you that pastors in the community should do more. They should call out the misogynist amongst us and should speak to our young men and women about the value of getting married, the value of education and keeping their damn legs closed as a start.
I've never heard of Farrah Gray coming out. That's the guy that became a millionaire at age 14. Well I never said my gaydar works. It hasn't worked since I turned 30 |
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Nov 02, 2009 8:29 PM GMT
theantijock saidNot sharing the same experience, I find it difficult to engage this conversation, yet I find fascinating just the same how African Americans perceive their community, how that has effected them, individually, and how you deal with it. Really interesting and heart-felt. Thanx for sharing. I look forward to continue learning more here and elsewhere on this.
On my comment about blaming gays for HIV spreading to the daughters of the matriarchs,
Blackguy4you saidI don't think that's the crux of the message being communicated.
So please note that I never claimed it to be but one aspect that seemed to me detrimentally offbase.
Also,
Blackguy4you saidIt is more that the black community needs to be less condemning so that all members may live a more healthy and complete life
I agree. But better to egress into your community from your front porch in the full light of day than from a darkened servant’s side door where you might find someone who shouldn't be there like
Agree |
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Nov 03, 2009 4:01 AM GMT
The Reverend Joseph Lowery is possibly the most respected and beloved spiritual leader in the Black community.........and HE'S ON OUR SIDE.
He has been bold in bringing his message of gay acceptance to as large an audience as possible. Listen to his benediction during the Inauguration....or his eulogy of Coretta Scott King. On both occasions it would have been easy to leave us out, and preferred by most of the audience. But he will not be quiet on our behalf.
I am grateful.
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Nov 03, 2009 4:08 AM GMT
Rev. Eric Lee (president of the LA chapter of the SCLC) is also on our side.
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Nov 03, 2009 4:50 AM GMT
That's a GREAT CNN bit on blacks and the gay community. I think there should be more info on this.
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Nov 03, 2009 6:07 AM GMT
well theantijock, we couldn't tell whether you agree or disagree with what we said earlier, that homophobia kills straights. When gays (closeted in loveless marriages) or Bis are forced into the DL, illness often happens and doesn't get treated til it becomes a huge problem. This can happen in any religion or culture that's repressive. Here's an example: http://allafrica.com/stories/200907271400.html and another from my parents' country of origin. http://www.pulitzercenter.org/showproject.cfm?id=131 -Doug |
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Nov 03, 2009 6:44 AM GMT
I agree with MenInLove, which is why I don't understand why straights want to "rehabilitate" gay men. Who wants to worry if their husband is relapsing? I think choosing a side and coming out is a lot to do with compassion and respect for the other side. These were my feelings, I didn't want a woman to fall hard for me, start a family, and then find I couldn't resist jumping the fence. It would have made me feel low. Sometimes I still have to be polite, but firm when redirecting a gal's affections, but it's for her own good.
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Nov 03, 2009 7:21 AM GMT
theantijock said[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_implies_causation_(logical_fallacy)[/url]
AIDS is not a gay disease. It is simply a disease. You already won that battle. Why would you give up that ground?
The spread of HIV is not an issue of sexual orientation, it is a medical (find a damned cure already) and procedural (put on a damned rubber) issue.
Homophobia does not kill str8 people. Sexual inhibition and all its corollary embarrassments, regardless of sexual orientation, is what allows for the mismanagement of safe sex practices. Being gay has nothing to do with it. Your only evidence is coincidence.
I agree and that compounds the issue I'm having with the fact that no gay black men were in the "roundtable". Has anyone seen this entire report? |
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Nov 03, 2009 3:47 PM GMT
Oh great heavens, antijock!
"I don't recall gay caucasians marching with banners reading: ACCEPT US OR WE WILL SPREAD OUR HIV TO YOU in their fight to be accepted into their general community. How insulting and self-loathing to think our black brothers should resort to this. True acceptance will never be spelled e.x.t.o.r.t.i.o.n."
That is the strangest spin we've read on this so far.
Please read those links we provided.
Stop trying to imply that the spread of illness would be deliberate. The spread is from ignorance and fear of discovery.
Again, read the links. If we have to choose between your rather bizarre slant of what we're saying and what the links tell us - we're going with the links.
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Nov 03, 2009 5:05 PM GMT
You don't get it antijock. And we're tired of explaining it to you and have you come up with the outrageous insult of telling us we think AIDS is a gay disease and blah blah blah. It's the segments of straight population that believe AIDS a gay disease, the same segments that pushes gays underground and BIs underground, keeps them ignorant and fearful and forces them into having accidents that involve their straight marriages and girlfriends.  |
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Nov 03, 2009 5:45 PM GMT
meninlove said
You don't get it antijock. And we're tired of explaining it to you and have you come up with the outrageous insult of telling us we think AIDS is a gay disease and blah blah blah.
It's the segments of straight population that believe AIDS a gay disease, the same segments that pushes gays underground and BIs underground, keeps them ignorant and fearful and forces them into having accidents that involve their straight marriages and girlfriends. The debate between you two and theantijock seems a bit convoluted but I've been able to dissect it enough to see that you both have the same understanding of the situation and only disagree on one point. Theantijock was speaking directly to the claim made by Anglea Burt-Murray from Essence magazine. Considering this is a discussion about blacks and gays, the fact that no black gays were interviewed is boggling to me. I believe theantijock is in this same frame of mind. No one was there to refute her claim that the spread of AIDS is due to brothers on the downlow. I believe that theantijock already understands that's the perception of heterosexuals. While his delivery has quite bit of cynicism, his argument is legit. At the same time, your assertion that homophobia is at the core of this issue is admirable but it sorta misses the mark because it doesn't address the fact that AIDS is spreading among heterosexuals for many reasons, only one of which is from "brothers on the downlow". |
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Nov 03, 2009 7:01 PM GMT
GuiltyGear said
I agree with MenInLove, which is why I don't understand why straights want to "rehabilitate" gay men. Who wants to worry if their husband is relapsing? I think choosing a side and coming out is a lot to do with compassion and respect for the other side. These were my feelings, I didn't want a woman to fall hard for me, start a family, and then find I couldn't resist jumping the fence. It would have made me feel low. Sometimes I still have to be polite, but firm when redirecting a gal's affections, but it's for her own good.
What?!?!?!?! Are these gals blind Can't they see you from a mile away? What da hell is wrong with their gaydar??! |
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Nov 04, 2009 2:15 AM GMT
"But then someone uses this thief to try and let us in acceptance's back door."
Crap. That's a nauseating and incorrect assumption and extrapolation.
antijock also said, "I'm a homophobe + I'm not careful = AIDS
I'm a homophobe + I'm careful = No AIDS
I'm careful + I'm not a homophobe = No AIDS
I'm careful + I am a homophobe = No AIDS"
....which only tells us you completely missed it.
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Nov 04, 2009 3:09 AM GMT
lol antijock, neither of us are named angela, nor have we referenced that article anywhere on this topic.
As well, we'd never agree that it is THE way that AIDS is infecting straights. There are several ways and men on the DL forced to take risks is only one of them. This is not a just a black issue, it's a persecution-and-the-inevitable- consequences-of-persecution issue.
The concept of gays threatening straights with AIDS if they don't accept us is waaaaaaayyyyyyy out there, and the extrapolation that got us steaming.
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Nov 07, 2009 5:32 AM GMT
Meninlove said,
"The concept of gays threatening straights with AIDS if they don't accept us is waaaaaaayyyyyyy out there, and the extrapolation that got us steaming. "
and antijock said,
"That was nothing but a parody of the editor's quote, not truth, but a joke to make a point. I'm certain you relate to the technique."
...and that explains you to us, sir. We made no jokes.
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Nov 07, 2009 5:42 AM GMT
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Nov 07, 2009 5:58 AM GMT
It's always disappointing to read "Gays & Blacks", because to me it seems like people are making it seem like an unrelated divide between the two. There are many gays who are black. There are many blacks who are gay. The majority of the black gays that I know and are friends with identify as both proudly black and gay. Also, the down low is just the closet. Nothing more, nothing less. The term in itself smacks of racism and a double standard, i.e, the black man who's on the down low is a hyper sexual dangerous whore exposing innocent people to STDs due to his unsafe sex practices.
The perception that the black community's conservative attitudes forced many black men and women to be on the down low is secondary to the amount of violence that the black community allows in regard to all of it's members - particularly so for gays and lesbians. This is more of a deterrent to black gays and lesbians coming out than the myth of the ever present homophobic pastor shouting fire and brimstone from the pulpit.
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Nov 07, 2009 6:19 AM GMT
We don't think so, PipHop, "The term in itself smacks of racism and a double standard, i.e, the black man who's on the down low is a hyper sexual dangerous whore exposing innocent people to STDs due to his unsafe sex practices."
That sounds like a man deliberately hurting others. Is that what some people think of DL men? Good lord.
Any man, no matter what colour, on the DL (just another phrase for being active but in the denial closet) is likely confused, damaged, a victim in terrible ways, and deserving of help, acceptance,assurance, and self-esteem.
We see a difference in DL and closet as some closeted guys do not have any kind of sex with others. A loveless marriage and personal ethics that don't permit extramarital anything.
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Nov 07, 2009 6:30 AM GMT
PipHop said
The perception that the black community's conservative attitudes forced many black men and women to be on the down low is secondary to the amount of violence that the black community allows in regard to all of it's members - particularly so for gays and lesbians. This is more of a deterrent to black gays and lesbians coming out than the myth of the ever present homophobic pastor shouting fire and brimstone from the pulpit.
Amen. But at the same time, my black gay friends and I have often said that it is easier for a white guy to come out gay than a black guy to come out gay. |
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Nov 07, 2009 3:51 PM GMT
The antijock said, " Good for you that you would believe your own bullshit. You are fooling nobody else but yourselves."
Right, and the links we posted are bullshit, right? Hardly. We prefer doing research and posting links of what we found. You consistently put ridiculous extrapolations on what we said then make moral judgments about our characters.
If you read the links you'll find out it's because many STRAIGHTS consider it a gay disease, part of their homophobia, that causes so much grief because many DL men buy into it.
Here's a quote from one link:
"Believing that AIDS is a gay disease, and that gay people are profoundly, perversely different, enables heterosexuals to deny their risk."
Interesting what you find out when you take the time for study of an issue.
Now really, your attempts at character assassination of us is not going to work.
Let's see, should we consider the information provided by research, or some nameless pic-less unverified completely blank profile? For all we know you're an extra fake profile someone already here created for the purposes of anonymity and the desire to .....character assassinate.
The choice is pretty easy.
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Nov 07, 2009 6:51 PM GMT
Finally. Hopefully we're on his ignore list. Case in point - immediately stooping to name calling instead of backing up his ridiculous twisting of what we said with citations or links to prove his personal opinion, and obviously no reading of the links we provided. ...and this is a classic, "Homophobia does not kill str8s. Nor have any str8s been str8-bashed due to homophobia." So these people are lying, eh? http://unfinishedlivesblog.com/2009/04/05/homophobia-kills-straight-people-too Quite frankly, the vociferousness of the insults tells us he's pissed off with us over much more than this topic. |
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Nov 08, 2009 9:05 AM GMT
You guys got it all wrong. Homophobia kills hair follicles. That's why so many men are bald. On a related note, isn't it interesting that humans can make a fucking large hadron collider to experiment with the "big bang" theory yet can't devise a way to keep from hair falling out of men's hair? I mean really it's just a matter of looking for the right molecule, or molecules that are responsible for the hair falling out and then making a synthetic molecule phosphotase or something. Anyway, I stand by my opinion that HOMOPHOBIA KILLS HAIR FOLLICLES mehhhhhhhhh!!!!!
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