European Court of Human Rights rules against crucifixes in Italian classrooms

  • NickoftheNort...

    Posts: 1416

    Nov 05, 2009 8:08 AM GMT
    For all recovering from Maine's Tuesday vote and angered by the Roman Catholic Church's role in it, you take some schadenfreude from this bit of news.

    The European Court of Human Rights on Tuesday ruled against the Italian government and judged the Italian use of crucifixes in public school classrooms to be a human rights violation. Source: The Guardian - Human rights ruling against classroom crucifixes angers Italy

    We are losing some of the battles, but they'll be the ones who'll lose the war. icon_biggrin.gif
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    Nov 05, 2009 12:09 PM GMT
    Amen to that!
  • MikePhilPerez

    Posts: 4357

    Nov 05, 2009 1:14 PM GMT
    NickoftheNorth saidFor all recovering from Maine's Tuesday vote and angered by the Roman Catholic Church's role in it, you take some schadenfreude from this bit of news.

    The European Court of Human Rights on Tuesday ruled against the Italian government and judged the Italian use of crucifixes in public school classrooms to be a human rights violation. Source: The Guardian - Human rights ruling against classroom crucifixes angers Italy

    We are losing some of the battles, but they'll be the ones who'll lose the war. icon_biggrin.gif


    Yeah, intolerance will really help to create a more tolerant world. I see where you are go with that. NOT
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    Nov 05, 2009 1:22 PM GMT
    Shit like that pisses me off. How Christian is the Italian population?

    When I was a kid growing up outside Boston I went to the same elementary school my mother went too, had the same third grade teacher my mother did as well as the same principal.

    We said the Pledge of Allegiance every morning, we sang religious Christmas Carols and we said a prayer if someone in our class had some tragedy in their lives. We didnt exclude people of color or other religions. WTF is wrong with society?
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    Nov 05, 2009 1:30 PM GMT
    Good for them...

    a public school, should be neutral ground and not show a preference for any religion.

    religious private schools, can tattoo crucifixes on their foreheads if they want to, as far as I care.

    just as you're free to choose a religion, you should have the choice to be free from it.
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    Nov 05, 2009 2:03 PM GMT
    religion should be a private affair; wearing it on your shirtsleeve or forehead does not bring you indulgence. it is in the silence of your being that you unite with the highest, not through loud, or ostentations behavior.
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    Nov 05, 2009 2:06 PM GMT
    The only fair alternative would be to allow, wherever crucifixes are displayed, displays of the religions of everyone else present. Then of course, you'd have to allow for an atheist to come in and burn it all down, to be fair.
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    Nov 05, 2009 2:08 PM GMT
    I wrote in another post about a T-shirt logo that gay Republicans could wear:

    "I'm not anti-gay -- I just vote for candidates who are"

    Which mimics the T-shirt that says: "I'm not gay -- but my boyfriend is"

    Now we can add:

    "I'm not anti-gay -- I just worship at a church that is"
  • MikePhilPerez

    Posts: 4357

    Nov 05, 2009 2:18 PM GMT
    Red_Vespa said"I'm not anti-gay -- I just worship at a church that is"


    It's not the Church that is anti-gay, just some elements within the Church.
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    Nov 05, 2009 2:25 PM GMT
    Somebody should tell the leader of the church that the church isn't anti-gay.
  • NickoftheNort...

    Posts: 1416

    Nov 05, 2009 4:21 PM GMT
    MikePhilPerez saidYeah, intolerance will really help to create a more tolerant world. I see where you are go with that. NOT

    I have not hatred toward Roman Catholics; however, I detest the Roman Catholic Church institution. It is a cynical theocracy that holds the end of its continued control and influence higher that the means through which it achieves them. The best thing Roman Catholics can do for themselves and for the rest of us is to end this relic of Constantine, and either remake their central guiding institution or reject having one altogether.

    As for Italy, it is a state that officially subscribes toward the modern, secular order where the public governmental sphere shall not prescribe a particular religion onto its citizens. Clearing public school classrooms of explicit religious icons is par for the course.
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    Nov 05, 2009 4:34 PM GMT
    i think its great that they recognize that religion- particularly the christian flavor- is pretty much the ANTITHESIS of education and intellectualism lol- look at creationism for christ's sake! lol or the dark ages for that matter.
    schools look forward, the church looks backward, and that's how it is. doesn't make sense on any level to mix the two.
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    Nov 05, 2009 5:00 PM GMT
    MikePhilPerez said
    Red_Vespa said"I'm not anti-gay -- I just worship at a church that is"


    It's not the Church that is anti-gay, just some elements within the Church.




    A Church/Religion can be anti-gay. Churches have offical policies and documents as statements of its beliefs. Not everyone within the church may agree with those beliefs, but untill changed those are the "offical" views of the Church Hierarchy. The "offical" Catholic view is basicly that Homosexual desires, while not a choice, are a kinda of charater defect. Also, one should not act on their homosexual desires and avoid any encouragement of doing so.

    Here is a short video telling explaining the teachings of the Catholic Church on Homosexuality
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqHAPbWJ0wQ

    Those within the Catholic Church who believe/act otherwise are simply not following church teachings. Can any "gay Catholic" show me an offical Catholic document which states it is ok to act on homosexual desires and encourages faithful gay Catholic to direct themselves into monogamous relations? I am not talking about a local priest who secertly tell his beliefs (because I know at the local level a lot of priest don't believe the offical Bull shit they are forced to spread) but an offical teaching of the Catholic Church.


    MikePhilPerez is just upset because is a Gay Uncle Tom supporting the anti-gay Catholic church. I wonder if we will see MikePhilPerez, and others like, him wearing the "I'm not anti-gay -- I just worship at a church that is" t-shirt".
    It would be really fitting icon_wink.gif
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    Nov 05, 2009 5:24 PM GMT
    BeachBiMan saidShit like that pisses me off. How Christian is the Italian population?

    When I was a kid growing up outside Boston I went to the same elementary school my mother went too, had the same third grade teacher my mother did as well as the same principal.

    We said the Pledge of Allegiance every morning, we sang religious Christmas Carols and we said a prayer if someone in our class had some tragedy in their lives. We didnt exclude people of color or other religions. WTF is wrong with society?


    Boston back then didn't exclude people of color?

    My, how things have changed since then ...
  • leixguy

    Posts: 144

    Nov 05, 2009 5:42 PM GMT
    the european court of justice is an extremely dangerous body if a predominantly christian school wants to have the crusifix displayed then, then they should! I respect other peoples cultures and traditions as long as they respect the cultures and traditions of their host country, I went to a convent primary school and a catholic secondary school (most schools in ireland have either roman catholic or church of ireland (anglican) patronage) and any parent that did not want their child to be thought religion, or to say the angeles at 12 noon simply wrote a letter to the school and the pupil was exempted from religion class, i dont see any problem with this because we are a predomintly christian society.
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    Nov 05, 2009 5:55 PM GMT
    We live in a predominantly heterosexual society so...
    We live in a predominantly white society so...
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    Nov 05, 2009 6:01 PM GMT
    czarodziej saidi think its great that they recognize that religion- particularly the christian flavor- is pretty much the ANTITHESIS of education and intellectualism lol- look at creationism for christ's sake! lol or the dark ages for that matter.
    schools look forward, the church looks backward, and that's how it is. doesn't make sense on any level to mix the two.


    Actually Catholic schools do a good job teaching sciences. I dare to say people going to Catholic schools (in the USA) get a much better education than those attending public schools.
  • leixguy

    Posts: 144

    Nov 05, 2009 6:27 PM GMT
    MunchingZombie saidWe live in a predominantly heterosexual society so...
    We live in a predominantly white society so...


    so.....................so what??
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    Nov 05, 2009 7:00 PM GMT
    leixguy saidthe european court of justice is an extremely dangerous body if a predominantly christian school wants to have the crusifix displayed then, then they should! I respect other peoples cultures and traditions as long as they respect the cultures and traditions of their host country, I went to a convent primary school and a catholic secondary school (most schools in ireland have either roman catholic or church of ireland (anglican) patronage) and any parent that did not want their child to be thought religion, or to say the angeles at 12 noon simply wrote a letter to the school and the pupil was exempted from religion class, i dont see any problem with this because we are a predomintly christian society.


    The European Court of Justice enforces the European Convention on Human Rights, which guarantees the rights of everyone: minority not just majority.

    Too much discrimination--such as the endemic misogyny of Italy--takes place under the guise of "culture".

  • leixguy

    Posts: 144

    Nov 05, 2009 7:10 PM GMT
    and what rights exactly were denied by having a damn cross on the wall??
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    Nov 05, 2009 7:17 PM GMT
    leixguy saidand what rights exactly were denied by having a damn cross on the wall??


    there's an answer to that in my previous post.
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    Nov 05, 2009 7:17 PM GMT
    czarodziej saidi think its great that they recognize that religion- particularly the christian flavor- is pretty much the ANTITHESIS of education and intellectualism lol- look at creationism for christ's sake! lol or the dark ages for that matter.
    schools look forward, the church looks backward, and that's how it is. doesn't make sense on any level to mix the two.


    There is nothing wrong with creationism.

    And you are some what off about the dark ages. True some henious acts were committed during that time. There is no need to argue the point that a great deal of suffering was caused during that period. But it was also in that period that we had the following:

    Thomas Aquinas - an undisputably brilliant man whose life happened to coincide with an outpouring of brilliance in architecture, law, poetry, philosophy, theology and art in many places in europe.

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    Nov 05, 2009 7:19 PM GMT
    leixguy saidthe european court of justice is an extremely dangerous body if a predominantly christian school wants to have the crusifix displayed then, then they should! I respect other peoples cultures and traditions as long as they respect the cultures and traditions of their host country, I went to a convent primary school and a catholic secondary school (most schools in ireland have either roman catholic or church of ireland (anglican) patronage) and any parent that did not want their child to be thought religion, or to say the angeles at 12 noon simply wrote a letter to the school and the pupil was exempted from religion class, i dont see any problem with this because we are a predomintly christian society.


    And what if you want your kids to be in a non denominational environment away from all that damaging religious influence but your in a backward country where all the good private schools that stand a chance of offering your kids a good education are all religion based

    Or god forbid you have girls, in a place where all the good schools are catholic all boys schools and girls are sent to half-way institutions with no focus on math or science, leave that to the men. And good luck sending them to any good schools, both my sisters are in Methodist private school. 10-15 years back my parents would have been stoned for that, now they just had to swear (lie) on a bible, in a church that their kids would be sent to catholic school.

    By the way whats considered the most exclusive boarding school in Dublin (catholic) was sued two years ago for forcing Islamic pupils to attend catholic services as a condition of enrollment

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    Nov 05, 2009 7:25 PM GMT
    BeachBiMan saidShit like that pisses me off. How Christian is the Italian population?

    When I was a kid growing up outside Boston I went to the same elementary school my mother went too, had the same third grade teacher my mother did as well as the same principal.

    We said the Pledge of Allegiance every morning, we sang religious Christmas Carols and we said a prayer if someone in our class had some tragedy in their lives. We didnt exclude people of color or other religions. WTF is wrong with society?


    98% of the Italian population is Roman Catholic... I think it should be okay if they want to put Crucifixes up wherever they want.
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    Nov 05, 2009 7:27 PM GMT
    phemt said
    czarodziej saidi think its great that they recognize that religion- particularly the christian flavor- is pretty much the ANTITHESIS of education and intellectualism lol- look at creationism for christ's sake! lol or the dark ages for that matter.
    schools look forward, the church looks backward, and that's how it is. doesn't make sense on any level to mix the two.


    Actually Catholic schools do a good job teaching sciences. I dare to say people going to Catholic schools (in the USA) get a much better education than those attending public schools.


    Yes, Catholic schools teach evolution and everything else that most Protestant Churches are against.