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Do you expect sexual services from your massage therapist and why?

The reason I am asking is that I am a licenced massage therapist and it has occured on a couple of occasions where clients book a massage and expect masturbation as part of the massage therapy session.

I spent over 1000 hours in training and tons of money to work in the health industry.

Absolutley, and here's why. Just got back from my massage. My gay male therapist does all the massaging but I do the jo. I think that massage is very beneficial to men in paricular because of prostate health, better ejaculation, and erections. i've had a vasectom which I'm not super happy about, but I think that massage has helped the loss of ejaculation performance surrounding that issue. I'm not purporting to back it up with any scientific studies, but men have different parts than women. Is that a surprise? It's not a sex get off. It's massage. He massages the area around my rectum too. He massages my scrotum and balls. We sit for a lot of hours in this country. The increased blood flow is good for that region of the body. Is it hot? Sure it is. But it is also healthful beneficial massage. We are so prudish in America. A lot of gay men included if you can believe it. i tip my therapist extremely well. Are you offended when you go to France and the women are topless? Come on! Get over it.

Hah. The American Massage Therapy Association (AMTA) would love to hear that. Not!

No, actually, while it may be enjoyable to have a massage with "happy release" either/or for the recipient or by massage therapist, or mutual, such would be considered an act of prostitution if money was exchanged, no judgment intended.

I don't know if it should be expected, but it should be discussed before the massage if the patient desires this 'treatment'. There are many types of massage and I think this should only be part of a sensual message.

Thanks for responding! I have to say that as much as I enjoy pleasuring my partner and being pleasured sexually.

I am a massage therapist whom happens to be gay. Most of my clients - young/old, male/female gay/straight don't know my sexual orientation and It is not even an issue. Over my career I have had a few incidents where I was either my crotch was grabed or I was asked to perform mastrubation on the client. These clients don't return for a second session.

I realize that massage and touch is sensual in nature. That an erection during a massage is normal but It does not give the therapist nor the client the right to disrespect the the other person. Yes, the therapist may rub up against the genitals but that usually is not the intent.

If you therapist is performing sexual acts of nature, it is a form of prostitution. In my provence a therapist will have his/her licence taken away. We have inspectors that govern this sort of activity.

Massage is of a non sexual intent for the benifit of creating a state of well being; Mentally, physically and spriritually.

I have never gone to my family physician, dentist or chiropractor and expected to me "jerked off" after my check up or treatment.

I agree with you RK! I reward myself with a massage about once a month. The masseuse that I go to is this HOT 25 year old guy. I don't go to him because he is hot, but because he gives the best massage there. I think that I would be kicked out of the place if I suggested a 'happy ending'! Good luck to the guys who do receive these from their masseuse though!

I think the whole "happy ending" thing is pathetic. I want the best massage possible. Jerking off is something I can do on my own, just fine, thank you. It's an insult to both me, and the person doing the massage, to inject sex into the whole thing. I've done massage to people for money when I was in a rough spot, and the old roll over on the side for the happy ending thing is pretty sad. I've never given anyone a happy
ending, and you won't see me asking for it, nor wanting it. It's demeaning to both parties.

As usual, in gay culture, there seems to have to be some sexual overture. E.g., gay bath houses have no parallel in straight culture.

With closeted folks, the Religious Right, plain ignorance, and gay culture attaching sex to every activity, no wonder it's hard to gain acceptance.

I assure you, we're not all fucked up.

Thank you so much Chuckystud!

bloglcon I ve spent over 2000 hours to achieve my license in massage,,,,,,,,,,And have no attentions of giving sexual favors doing a session......thats the most rediculous thing I have ever heard.........if your massage therapist does that for you hes obvious a hustler....why risk 2000 hours of hard work over some guy with a hard dick........its not worth it. guys like that i kick off my table presto pronto

It's mighty embarassing when I find my pole standing half-mast--even when being massaged by a woman. not intentionally. so i'd rather just hang out on top of my water-powered massage blanket from Sharper Image. :)

It might interest people to note that in my state (RI) happy endings are in fact legal. They are anything but happy, though. Due to some strange legal issues, prostitution is legal in private in RI. If you paid for the massage first, anything sexual that happens after is legal, even if money is exchanged.

In fact, the definition of "private" is so broad that cruising in a wooded area, like what might be alongside a highway rest stop, is considered private. The legal test is that for an area to be public, a member of the public could be reasonably expected to happen upon you while going about their business. So, if you have to pay to get in, or are out of view of public rights of way, you are in private. RI only is able to regulate "public soliciation" and "loitering for the purpose of prostitution," both of which must occur in public.

This has created a huge human trafficing problem in this state, with glorified pimps paying for asian women to immigrate here as "massage therapists," and then forcing them to work off their debts as sex slaves in massage parlors that are glorified brothels. The state is currently struggling to find a way to regulate this in a fashion that gets around our state constitution's rigorous privacy protection without unduly punishing the women who really are the victims in the whole situation.

I don't quite get comments from people like BlogIcon who say "we in America are so prudish." Of course, he's the exception, right? It's funny how a country as expansive and diverse as the United States gets pigeon holed into the most generalized stereotypes, even by Americans. There are more sex shops and sex clubs and sexually oriented businesses in the US than any nation on earth. America produces more porn than the rest the world combined. But I'm sure BlogIcon would turn around and condemn America as decadent! America simply cannot win with some people--you know, the snobs.

I remember when I used to live in Germany. I intended Gay Saunas during the week end and I happened to have massages. I generally felt better after hours of training during the week. I couldn't stop myself having a hard on whenever the guy was massaging sensitive parts of my body, but I never wanted to go past a certain limit. This guy was only paid for the massage, and I could understand it very well.

I also read the previous comments and I can say the top less women appeared in France at Saint Tropez. (Brigitte Bardot)

Are the USA a puritain country ?...I don't think so and I completely agree with cutejockmasc with his comments. The Government Policies make us believe what they want to.

I think it's ludicrus to expect a qualified masseur to give you a hand-shandy at the end of the process. You are there for a massage, not to get your rocks off.

I do think it's natural to get turned on by the process though. I do however think that it is common decency to cross your legs, be a bit embarassed and maybe apologise if you do find yourself with an erection. I'm sure masseurs see the effects of their touch all the time.

As for Americans being prudish. I think this interpretation (as far as outsider like myself goes) comes from the strange contradiction that exists in the USA. On one hand you seem to be able to buy explicit porn absolutely everywhere (newstands etc), but then the country has a nervous breakdown at the sight of a woman's nipple (poor old Janet Jackson). What's that all about?

Loz

Laurence, liberty breeds contradictions. For example, you paint your house pink and I paint mine green (unless there's a community standard, which have passed Constitutional muster). Or, you decide to attend San Fancisco's Folsom Street Fair (which permits public sex and nudity), and I decide to go to a Christian revival in Napa County. Or, you watch EWTN (a 24-hour Catholic Cable channel), and I choose to watch MTV's "Next," which often shows teen-age boys toungue kissing each other. Or, you travel to Nevada for a vaction and have sex in one of the state's legal brothels, and I decide to go to Nevada's neighbor Utah and explore the rich history of Mormonism.... Get it now?

Hi CJM.

Hey,I hope you didn't think I was being critical of your great country. I am a big fan, in the main, of the many achievements of the USA. I was just pointing out how some things might be viewed contradictory by outsiders, just as I am sure some things that we Europeans get up to may seem so to you Americans. I think we'd all like to live in a world where we (and our actions, if not hurting anyone else) could live in peace and harmony. And it would certainly be a boring world if we all were the same and had the same views.

Freedom of speech is an important part of a civilised society.

Loz

Yes, Europe is full of contradictons also. For example, the countries that are very liberal on gay issues also have the most hate crimes committed against gay people than any other nations in the industrialized world--U.N. statistic. In other words, I'd rather be an openly gay baseball player playing center field for the Texas Rangers than an openly gay soccer player playing left flank in the Netherlands. That would be almost like a death sentence.

i go to a gay masseur, he's even on this site (i forget his screen name), and i have no hopes of getting a happy ending from him. many of the people on this site are honest athletes, and sometimes we need an honest athletic massage. not just something that feels good. so we go to trained masseurs. now i'm sure that people go to masseurs for pleasure with the hopes of having an extra-pleasurable experience. but there are different masseurs for that. you know? so i say if you want a massage for pleasure, you just have to look for the right people to give you those. if you want a massage for relief, then you look for different masseurs and go in with different expectations.

Hi again CJM.

Hey that's great. I had no idea being an out Gay sportsman (or woman) was no big deal in the US.

You're obviously more progressive than we are in Europe. Where there are still problems with being out and proud in the sports arena.

Loz

Road is right. I go for a sport massage to work out all the knots I have from practice! Ouch! ...but later ...

Fellas.

I think that you have forgotten about the topic issue and turned this forum into a gay bash for other countries.

We all know that religion has ruled this planet since it first existed.
I think that we should focus on what we have in common in gay world. Same struggles and make a push throughout the entire world to change.
To be a single force pushing for total "Acceptance" not toleration.

Please do not fight over which countries are better. Do we not have more pressing matters?

srry rk.

I think the comments have been really great! I know that here in Canada we are a bit more liberal than other countries, Quebec being very liberal. We have same sex marriages, one of the first few countries in the world. There are therapists here, who I know do happy endings, they are up front and advertise in the local paper. To me, there is a huge difference between getting a theraputic massage from a professional and a rub down and hand job by someone who took a weekend course.

However, I don't care where you live or how liberal your country, state, city is - the issue is Do you expect extras from your therapist and why do you think so?

I think the arguing back and forth is a little silly.

I live in south florida and admittedly it's a little gay-central. I have no qualms going to an LMT with a happy ending.

That said however, LMTs or Body Rubs advertise fairly clearly if the happy ending is included. If you want one, you go to one that advertises or intimates such. If you don't, then go to an LMT that doesn't advertise it, and don't ask him for it.

Personally I don't find anything wrong with a happy ending. If that's what a guy wants from his massage guy and he is happy to give it, then so be it. It's not hurting you so why whine about it.

If however you're a no happy ending LMT, then simply state as much in a polite fashion so your [new] client knows better than to ask you.

-----

The prudishness of America is getting all up in arms because of what someone else does with some other person. Why fuss about it when it really has little to do with you? There are a lot of things that I don't like, find disgusting, or scary. But why should I get my balls in a blender over it and dig out the megaphone and anti-whatever posters?

Some people are rude and blatantly ask for a handjob or whatever after a massage. My advice to you is a polite "i'm sorry, that's not offered here." For the others that are getting agitated by the idea of a massage and sex, ... why do you care?


:)

I wouldn't expect it, but it would be a nice fantasy. After a stessful day, I would love to have a hot guy massage the stess and tension out of me. Most likely, I'd doze off and enjoy his strong, sensual hands. I'd respect him enough to not make him feel uncomfortable. If he initiates some extra activities, hey I can deal with that ;o)

Firefighter,

That is exactly what I do, I also am polite about it! Also, I don't care about what other therapist do.

The fact of the matter is, if I went to see my hot stud doctor for a physical, as hot and good looking as he is, I would never expect him to give me a happy ending at the end of my appointment. He respects me and I respect him as a person and as a physician.

Rk- I think this topic has been beaten like a dead horse- If u advertise that u give a professional-non erotic non sexual massage you will not have problems. I would never expect a happy ending from a massage therapist, but I have had quite a few offers-since then the underwear stays on! I think the traveling massage guys that do in/out calls are the types that will get hassled. Good luck- dress professional!!

I can't beleiev this is even being discussed... I am a bit taken by the lack of insight and manipulative rationalization from Bloglcon... If I was a professionally trained MT I would be very insulted by his comments.

Any service that includes intentional sexual pleasuring is called prostitution.

This is the same here in the US or France, it has nothing to do with being prudish or progressive or open minded. Just hire a professionally trained MT who is French, you ask him or her what he or she thinks about this kind of expectation!!

This is not to agree or disagree if sexual prostate and rectal "stimulation" to point of oragasm is beneficial for your health. This is not a discussion of health benefits of sex but whether sex as a service is a standard to be expected from legit professional massage therapists.

This is not to say prostitution SHOULD be legal or illegal, that is another topic entirely.

And a reply to Firefighter..

" For the others that are getting agitated by the idea of a massage and sex, ... why do you care?"

A professional LMT would care, because it undermines the professionalism of their skills.

If you are offering prostitution with massage, then advertize it as such, do not perpetuate the myth that is insulting to all the legit LMTs out there.

This is no different from men in the 1960's expecting all registered nurses to look and dress a certain way and give you a sponge bath even if you do not need one...

Anyone perpetuating such myths is not helping the profession taht deserves respect for the time and energy they devoted to their professional skills.

Again, if you are really progressive, upfront, open minded, and you are selling a sexual service, just advertize it as such. No need to mask it under a professional service.

NYCMUSC,

Thank You very much for your imput, very well said.

Actually, I don't advertise at all. I work with a team a physicians who do all the referals.

I used to advertise in the local paper. by stating that I am a licenced Massage Therapist ............

Just that every so often (once in a blue moon) I will get a call and they will ask if it is a sensual massage or if masturbation is included. At least they ask before booking an appointment. However, I was grabbed in the crotch by a young guy a few years back(I think I jumped 3 feet high cause I did not expect it. I was once asked how much extra it would cost for a genital massage and I told the guy that he came to the wrong place and he could leave if he wanted to. He never returned and that is ok too.

I really want to get a grasp on how men think and why some men feel they have that right of sexual pleasures when getting a massage.

Everyone deserves a happy ending.

CuteJock,

Your momma must be very proud of you!

CuteJock,

Your momma must be very proud of you! Very very proud!

We have three massage schools here in Atlanta, so the market is overflowing with massage therapists. I've had several friends tell me they originally objected to providing "happy endings," but ended up doing it because so many clients expected it.

Personally, the idea creeps me out, though I view my objection as part of my personal neurosis, not a moral issue. I wouldn't get a massage for years, after a therapist grabbed my dick. And even now I prefer to go to women.

As for the question of Puritanism: A puritanical orientation doesn't have much to do with behavior, necessarily. The Right Reverend Ted Haggard, who preached against sexual pleasure from a puritanical, fundamentalist perspective, was in fact just the opposite -- and there are countless such stories.

Arguably, it is the very prohibitions established by puritanical types that fuel the sex industry in the US. It is not as if most of this stuff is discussed openly by people or is even legal in many respects. People who attempt to regulate the erotic lives of others are typically trying to control their own impulses.

The U.S. was settled by Puritans. In the New England colonies, it was not even legal to grow flowers in your garden, so taboo was pleasure. The sex laws in our country, though changing, have continued to reflect a puritanical perspective.

How this compares to Europe, I have no idea, but I would love to see the source on the claim that hate crimes are more common in the European countries. Classifying a crime as a "hate crime" is a major ordeal in this country. It is hard to believe that this would not reflect a methodological difference, just as the vaunted claims about Canada's crime rate do.

obscenewish, U.S. sex laws are changing? Umm...yea, they changed in 2003 with the U.S. Supreme Court Lawrence decision which erradicated all sodomy laws across the country, virtually making the United States the most sexually liberated nation on earth. (I thought it was strange how the gay left ignored this monumental decision; I suppose it makes America look too good). Even in precious Canada, they have laws, reflecting British law, that state things such as no more than two people shall be present in the same room during sexual intercourse, etc. As of 2003, things like that cannot be banned in the United States. Instead of trying to find constant fault with America (and holding up the rest of the world to some strange cult-like idol worship), you should let loose and celebrate.

Thanks (once again) for telling me what I should be doing -- even though I said I have no idea what the laws in Europe are (and I suspect you don't either).

As usual, you distort facts to make your point. (By the way, can we have the citation on the European hate crimes, please?)

First of all, you have conflated the Texas decision with regulation of the commercial sex business, which is the topic here -- not the sodomy laws. Overturning the sodomy law does not affect prostitution, loitering laws, pornography laws, public indecency laws, solicitation laws, laws that regulate other forms of sex (such as oral sex here in Georgia), statutes that affect the sale of sex toys -- etc., etc. Where you get the idea that the state can't still regulate sexual behavior because the Texas sodomy law was overturned is a mystery to me.

Secondly, the Texas decision does not prohibit the states with sodomy laws from continuing to arrest people under them. That happens here in Georgia. The cases don't go to trial, of course, but the law is still used.

Finally, my objection to the state's regulation of people's pleasure has utterly nothing to do with my overall feelings about the United States. You complain about the gay left's criticism of the U.S.? Take a look at the right's effort to shut down discourse when it doesn't hear what it wants to.

You can celebrate your right to butt-fuck. I'll celebrate my freedom of speech.

Yes, it's true, the U.S. media does a horrible job covering the rest of the world. But who does this benefit? The rest of the world. Apparently, many erroneously believe in the old saying "no news is good news." If you actually use the Internet for more than downloading porn, you'll find a buttload of information about that themepark call "the world outside the Great Satan":

http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/guns/britishcrimerates.htm

http://english.people.com.cn/200207/15/eng20020715_99700.shtml

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2004/12/05/do0501.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2004/12/05/ixop.html

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20781

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1120436743193_22?s_name=&no_ads

I ran through those links quickly but saw nothing about hate crimes in Europe. Maybe I missed it.

You've also again cited David Frum's cracked analysis of Canadian crime stats on loony David Horowitz's site. I've already linked to the Canadian government's actual statistics PLUS a methodological analysis that debunks Mr. Frum's amateur analysis.

Since you simply ignore the analysis of the Canadians' methodological differences and continue to repeat Frum's "analysis" as if it were uncontested, I won't bother to research the UK stats.

I'll also pass on your usual generalization of any criticism of the US as unilateral condemnation. Great Satan, indeed.

A comment on Obscenwish's report that many LMTs eventually give in to the expectation of their clients requests of provinding the "happy ending" service...

Shame on those LMTs.. So if a client who goes to a physical therapist and expects "sensual maasage," then the therapist should comply?! Or if a patient expect a "sensual prostate massage" from his prostate check ups then the physicians should comply?! You are not just alking about loosing your license to practice, youare talking about a lawsuit!

I do not know what practive guildlines AMTA sets for LMT's, but I know for any other professional liscensure board, if you are performing sexual favors when you are charging for your advertized professional service, your licence is GONE. If AMTA has not set this standard, they are late in educating the public about the professionalism of LMTs.

And true progressiveness towards sex would legalize prostitution. There would be no need to insideously infuse prostitution into any profession that deserve its own distinct recognition.

And perfectly agree with Obscenewish's comment:

"People who attempt to regulate the erotic lives of others are typically trying to control their own impulses."

Humm... Didn't we just had a case of born again Christain preacher preaching agains homosexuality while using male prostitutes and getting high on meth..? Or a famous Congress member crusading against chld pornography actually propositioning young male interns?

You hit the nail on the head..

Trying to get you to see reality is like trying to get a radical Muslim to embrace homosexuality. But life is too short to give a fuck either way. Enjoy being a victim, high atop your ivory tower of course....

NYC,

You are absolulty correct about the licensing board as it is very strick and yes, one would lose one's license. We have a code of ethics the size of a reader digest magazine.

Code of ethics aside, I still would not do it as it is my fundimental value and a matter of self respect.

I have heard of therapist who do "happy endings" and they end up moving from town to town due to a bad reputation and them can not make the transition back to "professional massage" or thier business fizzes out due to the fact that people don't refer others to them. The majority of guys that want "happy endings" are usually older married men who are looking for some undercover sexual stimulation.

Women therapist have a much bigger problem with married men than guy therapist do.

Quebec is the most liberal provinces in Canada in terms of sexuality. But there is a limite! Each state in the US has different laws as to massage regulations and licensing boards that regulate standards and protect the public.

I checked with the American Massage Therapist Assosiation website and it appears that each state governs the laws of the therapists. I know under some states "happy endings" are considered prositution.

I Canada each province has the associations covering the code of ethics in accordance with the departments of Health. "Happy endings" are not considered a form of Prostitution in Canada cause there is no penetration involved. (It is called the law of Bill Clinton, LOL, only kidding) However, depending on which association you belong to with in your province, each are a bit different but all basically state the same. My association that I belong to happens to be the most strick in terms of any time of hanky panky.

I still would not lower my standards and nor do I have the intension of ever starting. Even if I was starving! That is just me.

blogicon, who made the first response in this thread, is long gone...his profile is gone. I have a difficult time believing that his post in response to the forum was serious anyway.

Second, is there any state in the U.S. in which "happy endings" (with respect to a CMT in his/her trade) is NOT considered an act of prostitution (meaning, a sex act) and is NOT illegal?

I'm seeing a CMT/Exercise Physiologist now for rotator cuff problems. He has me on the table and definitely working over the upper part of my body as part of the therapy.

It's ludicrous to imagine his response to a request from me for a j.o. or more. That's an act of prostitution. As someone pointed out above, it's as ridiculous as imagining that your doctor should do that at the conclusion of a physical exam.

Bloglcon, like Saintvegetable, is still here on this site. They have just changed their screen names. that makes me think the comments they made were ment to be serious, not jokes.

I have to agree with cutejockmasc about the cliche that europe is more open minded than America. These are strange images the media forces on us but of course untrue--just like the stereotypes of gays are untrue. Hey you know if Europe was so tolerant than America wouldn't be here today right?? My grandmother didn't immigrate to America to excape tolerance. On top of things like the Holocaust and other wars Europe has soccer hooligans and skin heads that America doesn't have. Soccer hooligans will hang outside gay bars in countries in Europe and bash the guys coming out of the bars. I lived in Germany for seven months and I wouldn't exactly call Germans tolerant. The skinheads aside from the rest of the population I would call Germans more indifferent.

P.S. isn't prostitution legal in Nevada, or has Nevada ceded from the union without anyone telling me???

hankbaseball33...what I said was this:

"...is there any state in the U.S. in which "happy endings" (with respect to a CMT in his/her trade) is NOT considered an act of prostitution (meaning, a sex act) and is NOT illegal?...'

Note the "with respect to a CMT in his/her trade...".

Outside of licensed locations in Nevada, solicitation of sex is illegal. Prostitution outside licensed brothels is a misdemeanor in Nevada.

I never was referring to "cat ranches". I was referring to whether"happy endings" with CMT's are legal. They are not.

Don't forget to mention money has to be exchanged for it to be considered prostitution. I always think of that Onion article in which the headline read: "Housewife arrested after decadeds of sex in exchange for food and shelter"

True.. It has to be transactional to be prostitution. But it is still not within the practice act of the profession, so it is not a legit massage.

And who would do "happy ending" after a massage and not charge you? Maybe spouse or a boyfriend...

If they charge for the whole package, massage and "happy ending" it is prostitution.

I never mentioned any state in my last post, please call your governors office and ask if "happy endings" are legal in your state or if they are considered to be a form of prositution by a LMT.

If you get an answering machine - Leave your name, address and telephone number and I am sure that someone will get back to you.

Georgia only fairly recently adopted mandatory licensure for massage therapists and I wouldn't be surprised if some states still do not have such a law. In the past, MTs here would go to Florida and take the exam there in order to have the LMT designation. Unless things have changed recently, the law is being widely ignored here.

I wouldn't be so sure that blogicon was kidding about his massage. The Body Electric, mentioned on another thread here, teaches people erotic massage and they certainly charge for it.

Good grief, CMJ, that reduces marriage or partnership down to one of support? :-) How cynical. I doubt most people feel that way.

Here's the definition of prostitution that catches it all:

"...Prostitution is defined as "the act or practice of engaging in sexual activity for money or its equivalent" (Garner 1999, p. 1238). Except for parts of Nevada, it is a criminal act in the United States..."

So, my query would be to blogicon, whereever he is under his new screen name here (which is interesting to know in and of itself...why would one feel like they have to develop an new ID on a website in which we are all anonymous anyway), on what planet would you EXPECT that happy endings would occur, given the definition of prostitution as an illegal activity above?

That's why I still feel his post was meant to be more outrageous than serious.

If you are seeing a LMT and you go knowing that you will get a "happy ending" and your LMT recieves you knowing that he/she will perform the same. It is prostitution. Massage or No Massage. I bet you would not go CUTEJOCK if your therapist stopped.

There are place here in the town where I live and the person (Usually has skimpy clothing on) has a weekend course in massage and basically gives you a rubdown and not only with the hands.

"Trying to get you to see reality is like trying to get a radical Muslim to embrace homosexuality. But life is too short to give a fuck either way. Enjoy being a victim, high atop your ivory tower of course.."


My ivory tower? LOL...I'm not the one browsing rightwing opinion websites as if they are repositories of fact.

You don't change people's view of reality by trying to pass off phony statistics and amateur analysis as facts. Nor do you get anywhere accusing people of an anti-American perspective simply because they make a criticism of one aspect of American society.

That's a favorite tactic of the rightwing these days -- to ignore the substantial basis of an argument and accuse people of some ideological deviancy. Rather than read the Canadian government's explanation of its statistical reporting, the issue becomes, in this case, my occupation of an ivory tower (good ole anti-intellecutalism, a la David Horowitz) and my positioning as a victim (another cliche of the allegedly bootstrapping right). You've already worked the anti-Ameican charge into earlier posts. How about "terrorist supporter" or "traitor"?

Let me be clear again. I don't really know the European sex laws. What I do know, from having worked there as a journalist (a strange ivory tower), is that Europeans generally are more liberal in this respect - arguably almost to a fault in the Scandinavian countries.

In other respects, such as racial tolerance, I would say they are behind us.

I agree with NYC in your last post. Actually, when I massage my boyfriend it is not in my clinique. It is in our bedroom, we do that out of respect for the profession and for other reasons as well. He gets all the "extras" he want, I will admit he doesn't only get a good hand job when I work on him!

I also have been agreeing with rksportswear all along here, of course.

In the SF Bay Area, den of the secular left, one can find massages with happy endings all over the place. But, they are still illegal.

Also, on the comment of our ancestors escaping Europe to come to the freedoms of America...that was very true....100 years ago. We are, of course, talking about the 21st century.

By the way, I compliment obscenewish on an attempt at rational discourse, meaning an exchange of ideas without letting the discussion devolve, despite disagreement.

Thanks Fastprof,

I appreciate it!

I also agree with Obscenewish in the sense that productive arguements must be supported by objective evidence from reliable sources. Each evidence must be carefully examined for their flaws before any conclusion made.

Labeling and categorizing as a generalization does not promote critical evaluation of any issues being discussed. Yet this is quite a powerful political tool used many times in history... Add the emotional factor of fear and need to comform, the "majority rules, if you do not agree, you are then one of them" mentality, this is the start of fascism...

Back to the topic of massage...

Another earlier post by a medical intern stated that the law in Ri is a bit whacky when it comes to "happy ending"

In order for profession to be recognized to the fullest extend that it deserves, there needs to be ONE practice standard instated by ONE governing licensure body in the nation, and this should also be recognized but other nations.

For example, physicians have AMA, PT's have APTA, but personal trainers have all these various licensure institutions with vast differences in the skills involved and its practice act... Therefore, a lot of the same issues are presented to personal trainers out there: what type of service and degree of professionalism do you expect when you hire a personal trainer? Well maybe not expectation of sexual service... Wait, ... after thinking about some "trainers" and "bodybuilders" I have known, I am not so sure about that either...

LOL, perhaps we should start a new forum post regarding personal trainers!

NYC - Let me tell you about Codes of Ethics in General. It is sad to say but even with licensing boards governing all types, there are perverts in every profession. Psychologists and "shrinks" have the highest rate of affairs with clients according to the book, "I slept with my therapist" translation from the French copy of the book.

It all boils down to individual morals and values. Mainly on the part of the professional.

Here is a link to a recent (April 5, 2007) article in the Providence Journal about the controversy surrounding the latest efforts to outlaw prostitution here.

http://www.projo.com/news/content/prostitution_04-05-07_7754PHA.356ccc0.html

Actually, mandatory licensure by the state is still pretty controversial. There isn't much evidence that it affects treatment outcomes or that it reduces lawsuits or consumer complaints.

Milton Friedman went so far as to oppose mandatory state licensure even of MDs, arguing that the free market, along with patient-protection laws, was not only sufficient to weed out quacks and bad doctors but also removed dubious PROTECTIONS that licensure confers upon doctors. He argued that putting licensure in the hands of private organizations and letting consumers make their own decisions would lower the cost of care and improve standards since the private licensing boards would be in competition.

Licensure is also often about turf and income protection. Here in Georgia a few years ago, we had a bill before the legislature to license master's-level psychologists. This would allow people with master's degrees, rather than PhDs, to conduct testing and evaluation. There was utterly no reason not to permit this, but the PhDs went berserk.I went to several hearings and have never heard such enraged posturing. It was about nothing but money and turf.

Licensure is also used to outlaw alternative health care. As it happens, I grew up with homeopathic doctors and have a more accepting attitude toward homeopathy than many. However, a homeopathic practitioner can't even operate legally in Georgia -- at least not since I last checked. Of course, an MD can practice homeopathy. Somehow, it's more acceptable in that case.

LIcensure is thus also used to subsume alternative care under the aegis of mainstream medicine and broaden the latter's control of the market. People could not practice accupuncture here unless it was under the supervision of an MD -- making it much more expensive than it might be otherwise and offering utterly no "protection," since the MD didn't have to know shit about accupuncture. Eventually, a licensure law was enacted, but this of course severely limits practice, too. So, there is a huge underground of illegal accupuncturists, most of them native practitioners.

Codes of ethics established under licensure usually do as much to protect the licensed as the public. We've all read stories about doctors who have held onto licenses despite repeated ethics complaints against them. I think most people would be shocked to see the degree to which the medical profession protects its own.

Personally, it's hard for me to get my mind around the notion of eliminating all licensure, but this is not a subject on which there is universal agreement at all.

Obscenewish,

In Quebec only those with a PHD in Psychology can hold the title of Psychologist. You are also required to hold and prove you have the compitancies in evaluation and treatment at a PHD level.

Anyone can hang a shingle on the thier front lawn, even a dog can practice as a psychotherapist here in my province. I know some pretty bad ones too!

Yes, I've read that most of Canada is more liberal in that respect. It used to be the same way here. The push for broader and more difficult licensure coincided with the decision by many insurance companies not to reimburse fees for psychotherapy or to limit them extremely. In other words, the pool of available money for therapy dried up and the market suddenly made licensure important.

Here, you cannot even advertise "personal growth" without a license. We're ridiculously over-regulated.

Any other LMT on here to comment. Please do!

such broad strokes posted here. Does anyone really know what the hell they are talking about? I didn't think so.

It is true allot of gay dudes will expect that just because of the image in the past. I had a friend who at times could be a whoe. He and his partner hired a massage therapist that had an ad in the local gay magazine. When it came down to it they were naked but covered appropriatly. He brought nice Enigma like music and scented oils, very professional and relaxing. My friend got hard and his dick was sticking out of the robe. The massager just simply moved it with the towel and re-covered it. Didnt even lay a hand on it. So my friend asked him do you do penis too? Even though Quite bluntly it said NON-Sexual in the ad. The man said no of course. My friend said he had no expectations because it was clearly stated in the ad. So basically bro you are prob still gonna get asked, but I would suggestion your ad says "Non Sexual". You could even have it at the end if you want. Use words like Healing and Relaxing to empasize nothing erotic. If I got a massage Id be damn embarresed if I got a woody LOL!

It is not abnormal to get a woody during a message. I do most of the time too. Some guys even keep thier undies on because of that fear. But it is a normal human reaction. Even an orgasm is normal too, for both men and women and you never even touch the genital area.

Hankbasball333..

What are YOU talking about???

By the way...

To make a generalized concusion that all posts here are of "broad strokes," instead of contributing specific points yourself supported by sound rationale and justification, just makes one question if the person understands what he reads at all...

I'm a little surprised to see no comparisons being made to the heterosexual side of this. In the past (5 or so years ago), I can remember hearing plenty of discussion about how prevalent sexual services were among various massage parlors around town (I was living in Houston at the time).

One guy described his first trip to such a place, which interestingly had signs inside and out specifying that absolutely no sexual services were provided by its staff. So naturally, when the massage neared its professional end, the masseuse stopped and said, "Aren't you going to grab my ass or something?" This, of course, served as a not-so-subtle lead-in for the additional services.

Now, 'locker room' talk aside, police-initiated closures of this type of business (due to prostitution charges) are/were extremely common, particularly at that time and in that area (and no doubt others, as well). I also find it rather interesting that claiming vehemently NOT to offer sexual services is an easy way to reduce your chance of getting busted for doing just that, particularly if you expect that clients will ask for them anyway. This of course complicates matters for anyone who is truly legitimate, whether the clients are gay or straight.

I'm not advocating that heterosexual indulgence validates the expectation of sexual services along with a massage, but I think regardless of whether right or wrong, it is a much more common expectation than some may realize. For my part, I have never gone for any sort of massage therapy as of yet, so the services they do or don't offer aren't of much significance to me at current.

Imaxim,

I think I mentioned earlier that it is a general problem in the spa's as well. Women therapist have reported problems with men in general.

In the sexuality course that I took during my massage training much discussion was on this type of behavour. I know the tricks that guys use but don't want to disclose them here.

If you want to know the truth and my hat is off to "gay" men but the problem clients appear to be "straight" married and over 40 that cause problems to the women therapist.

"Straight" again seems to also want the "happy ending" from male therapist, personally it is gay men who happen to be married I think are looking for a fix.

I am saying this only because I see all sorts of people in my practice, as all my clients are refered by doctors. Of all the gay clients that I see, I have never had a problem with them. I have had a coulple of incidents but nothing major.

Since Obscenewish mentioned it, just read the thread about "BodyElectric" workshops...

If you are a physician or therapist, can you imagine referring your patients to this kind of "workshop?"

Your license to practice would be challenged!

Hey, guys. This topic always makes me laugh.

I am a Licenses Massage Therapist in my city as well as being nationally certified and a member of the AMTA. Pls. know that a MT who is licensed by their state/city and/or nationally certified s/b operating under a code of ethics which prohibits "happy endings" during a professional massage.

Looking for that type of service -- then go to someone else.

If your MT is providing this "service" as part of their professional practice, then pls. report them -- as it gives the rest of us who are operating as professionals a bad name.

I don't mix business w/pleasure.

THANKS!

What would the AMTA do with the people beind "BodyElectric?"

AMTA can not do anything if the individual behind Body Electric is not a member. In most cases alot of these alternative schools are run by people who have little training but came up with an idea and is suppling a demand.

In our local paper today there are over 20 ads for "Happy rubdowns" given by men and women. I bet you that 19 of them have no more than a weekend course in massage.

This also reminds me of a documentary film I saw a while back... It was about a "sex surrogate."

While it seems to be therapeutic, but then the sex therapist does have intercourse with her "patients."

Some call it untraditional therapy, some still call it prostitution...

The thing is, what this woman did for her "patients," she could have easily hired a prostitute to "continue" her instructions after the clinic sessions...

Way back when, when I was first coming out and having a very difficult time at it...I had panic and anxiety attacks. It was pretty bad.

So I ended up every two weeks having psychotherapy with a psychiatrist... He tried to convince me (a) that I was not gay, and just "afraid" of women; and (b) that the sexual feelings I was having, despite always stimulated by men, were really stimulated by women. How about that for a look back at the 1970s... geez.

However, here was a licensed psychiatrist, who was chief of staff of psychiatry at a major SF Bay Area University Medical Facility (two guesses!!), who then was trying to convince me to go to a SEX SURROGATE. I was so messed up then, that I didn't even realize that he was lining up to go to a prostitute.

However, I wasn't so messed up that I didn't realize it was time to stop seeing that bozo.....

Great posts. I've learned a lot in this thread.

John

Thanks Fastprof!

I remember the film was made in the early 80's. In the film, this sex surrogate actually had men "falling in love" with her. She had a boyfriend at the time as well. It was problematic all around...

Pyschotherapy and psychiatry is not hardcore science. They know how some medications work in detail, but the process of diagnosis is not really all that "scientific" when compared to other areas of meidcal practice. But then again, if you ask my sister who is a world class nanochemist if medicine is hardcore science, she would probably just smirk and say nothing (and she is a very talkative girl.)

There's nothing quite like the topic of prostitution to polarize people, maybe abortioon issues, gun control,and on and on,

Isn't it a violation of the Georgia sodomy law for the Supreme Court to
have its head up its ass? ~Letter to Playboy magazine

42.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot

nyuck nyuck

Hey guys great conversation. We should move this to another forum catagory or better yet organize an international conference weekend maybe in Figi on Ethics! What do you think?

When I was much younger and hard up for cash, I did a bit of 'massage,' for a while there...
I'm in two minds about guys expectations in that situation... if you both get off on each other, that's fine, but if the masseur is in no way attracted to the guy and there is a come on, the experience can be very repugnant - as some guys think because they pay for your services (to massage!) they have a right to everything... I don't believe this is so... thankfully that part of my life is long behind me and I'm much more respectable now! Haha!
Cheers, Bud's
Bazza

I am also a licensed massage therapist and as a LMT, you should know that it is extremely unethical and degrading to our completely legitimate profession to offer those services as a part of your session! Anybody who does this is actually breaking a law and deserves to be locked up. I am all for a good massage with sex but you should never fuck your clients, only clientelle your fucks.

Very intersting topic here. I "think" it depends. If you have a good relationship with your Massage Therapist and it fills okay to both of you and/or you discussed it and agreed, sometimes it would be okay, legal stipulations aside. Is your Massage Therapist a Graduate of Body Electric? They are trained in giving Erotic Genital massage as part of Full Body massage, if it is Requested. The choice to have orgasm would be up to the client, as long as the therapist is agreed to it. It depends. Is it a burden or a joy for YOUR therapist to assist you with this. YOur definitely getting into a bit of a Gray Zone, but it is after all PERSONAL PRIVATE MASSAGE. EAch therapist would have to be cuatious, discrete and know the laws of their state.

Hmm, this thread won't go out to pasture will it..

A lot of global generalizing is being done in here. To be accurate with terms you should consult your state and local code for definitions and legality.

Prostitution is not "prostitution" by one single definition everywhere. The concept is generally the same but varies in technicalities. Prostitution is not illegal everywhere and even in America in at least one state, private offerings are not illegal. Massages with happy endings are not illegal everywhere, and finally the culture of ethics changes by locale.

Some people get agitated when others say happy endings with an LMT are ok. It depends on your culture. Generally America goes batsh*t with nudity. We (America) are pretty dang prude.

If you are an LMT and get agitated by the idea of happy endings, so be it. You have your opinion and the right to it. You also have your idea about the code of ethics for this profession.

You can't expect everyone to share your opinions however.

My experience in southern Florida is rather different from your location. There are a lot of LMTs in this area that advertise happy endings. If you have acclimated to this area, I wouldn't expect you to be surprised if someone mentions happy endings and a massage in the same sentence when speaking of an LMT.

Some do, some don't.

I just don't find a reason for drama in it. I have had a lot of patients grope me and I simply polite and dismissal of it. In my job I consider it improper.

Just not incited to get agitated about it.

:)

Not necessarily. I workout to keep my body in shape. At 46 yo, it's a rather necessity than a luxury. When I find the time to get a decent massage, I certainly enjoy it to the fullest. If the guy is as hot as you are, well hell yeah, I'd like a "happy ending" but I certainly don't expect it. However, keep in mind, if the guy you are massaging is gay, than yes, he's probably expecting it. Who knows about the straight or bi guys, they may want it, but not sure if they expect it or not. A massage is intended to relieve your muscles after a tough workout, nothing more. But getting the client to understand that is another story. Good luck.

Adam

i dont expect it for sure, but interesting that in Malaysia, a 'traditional massage' Urut Batin normally given by a skilled older, not necessarily gay man, includes a massage around the dick, and ass and massaging the balls and finally massaging the dick - it feels amazing and it is hard not to cum, - they dont mind and it is all very professional

This is an old tradition and the logic is the release is good for the body and if massaging the rest of the body why not the male bits

I think a " happy ending " sounds fab! I do have a masseur who does the fulll service and I love it!

I don't think anyone should EXPECT a happy ending from a licensed massage therapist. If someone is licensed, they've agreed to uphold certain guidelines, thus even asking a licensed therapist to give you one is really inappropriate.

That being said, LMT's should not be naive...they are in a profession whereby someone's skin and muscles are being rubbed down with oil by caring hands. Thus any advertisements should be clear about the non-sexual, professional nature of their massage. This kind of communication will prevent misunderstandings.

"Happy Endings" are not a gay/massage issue, this is very common in the hetero world of spas.

I've gone to unlicensed massage therapists as well as licensed ones...no matter what, I always appreciate when they ask first before rubbing the genitals. Again, communication is the key.

I think that in this day and age and especially in this country, that we should begin to disassociate ourselves from our genitals.
I have NO problems with the idea of a 'happy ending' massage.
ever heard of ayruveda?
it is a complete massage that hails from tibet.
It is a form of chakra wellness therapy that almost always results in an erection and focuses alot of time on the lower genital area.
The fact of the matter is that especially as americans, most of our stress lies in our genital region.
The idea behind ayruveda is that energy has been displaced and moved to areas of the body that is should not be.
To perform a complete chakra harmonising treatment and energy repositioning is healthy and lets face it... if I have energy and stress from work or from school or from friends... alot of it transfers into frustration which as humans we transfer into sexual frustration.
It is natural to release that energy.

We, dolphins and a certain monkey species are the only animals that are capable of sex for recreation.
It is a practice that is natural.

If this stress is not treated properly, in theory and also as proven by some scientific and medical research, it can result in prostate cancer, impotence and lost off eretcal function.

Your prostate receives no blood outside of an erection. If you have ever been stricken with an infection in the prostate, you know that the only way to induce the healing process and to propel the medication to the stricken area is through maturbation.

So why is it so taboo?

I'll talk to you guys later.
I need to masturbate... this topic is frustrating.

One more note:
as Merlene Dietrich so flawlessly quoted:

In the rest of the world, sex is a fact of life. In the united states it is an obsession.

a few other pearls of wisdom:

Mae West:
In london my tits are dropping trowsers, in the usa my tits arent covered nearly enough.... but they're still raising eyebrows.

Jean Harlow:
I went platinum for the studio, I stayed platinum because sex sells. I went bald for three years because sex sells and now I dont have a studio.

Candice Bergen:
may not be a great actress but I've become the greatest at screen orgasms. Ten seconds of heavy breathing, roll your head from side to side, simulate a slight asthma attack and die a little.


Tallulah Bankhead:
I've tried several varieties of sex. The conventional position makes me claustrophobic and the others give me a stiff neck or lockjaw.


and one last one... just to kick the party in it's ass lol

"Clinton lied. A man might forget where he parks or where he lives, but he never forgets oral sex, no matter how bad it is." -- Barbara Bush (and you didn't think Barbara had a sense of humor)

Ok, so according to many of these posts all of America is oversexed AND sexually uptight. Very strange. Impossible to be both. Come on you guys, get your widesweeping generalizations of 300 million people straight!

Have any of you ever heard of perhaps looking for a boyfriend once that is accomplished you can both enroll in a weekend massage course and then do whatever you want.

Gee, my Family Doctor does not advertise as a non-sexual service, why should I or any other professional therapist?

no.Just want to enjoy a good massage.If i wanted sex i would not pay for it.

I go to a very talented female massage therapist, and she does get straight men asking her if she accepts tips (which is apparently another way of asking for a happy ending). The only time I would ever expect sexual manipulation during a massage is if I were specifically getting an erotic massage.

rk, to each their own.

does a dentist here offer genital rubbing like a dentist in another country? does a dentist in another country?

apples and oranges really. there are quite a few other cultures and countries where massaging the genital area is not only offered but expected by both the giver and receiver.

as far as the generalized oversexed vs uptight, yes. 1/3 of America still believes in Bush while the rest cry and facetiously wonder wtf things are so screwed up here.

in south florida, sex is easy. in the bible belt ...relatives are easy? :P

so yes, America can have oversexed people and people so uptight they fart diamonds.

ah, but it doesn't really matter. that's the other side of the street and my bbq works just fine for me. AKA - no stressing over it.

on a tangent but related subject, my bf asked a friend of his about a particular gym and if they would get upset if two guys showered together in the same 1/2 closed stall. his response was utter shock and prudish retort.

never mind you that you can go to the other gym with no walls between stalls at all.

and never mind you that this is entirely not a sexual activity, just a simple shower of boyfriends.

to him, it's ok if 10 guys shower with each other with no walls at all in a shower room with even less space between the shower heads, but as soon as you spread the shower heads out and put a partial divider then one is expected to remain fully robed and avoid any form of eye contact with another member.

that logic amuses me.

as does the less than perspicuous logic of someone else getting all upset about the intimacy that might be found invading the profession of massaging the human body when it concerns a distant client and distant LMT.

:)

Actually through my own personal interractions with other cultures and people, I'd say the most sexually uptight people I've ever met were Canadians, Swedes, Germans and Chinese. The most sexually expressive would be Arabs and Americans. Here's two examples: once my boyfriend (now ex) and I were backpacking at a national park in the southwest when we came upon a natural hot spring. We stripped naked and jumped in. A group of elderly backpackers from New Hampshire and Wisconsin stripped and joined us. No one cared about each others nudity, and there was even some harmless flirting taking place between all of us--even the old men. Yet when a group of hikers from Canada and Germany came by, they adamantly refused to join us as they stared at us in shock, and the Canadian couple even ran in horror for the trailhead. I never witnessed such uptightness in my life. (I know where these people were from because we had talked earlier when we passed them on the trail.)

A second experience occurred in Thailand. We were on a snorkeling excursion when we realized we had forgot to wear our bathing suits under our shorts. Shrugging, we stripped to our undies and dove in. Sadly, it created quite a stir, perhaps because we were the only Americans aboard. The Swedes, Germans and Chinese complained to the boat captain about our "antics." The boat captain, an Arab from Israel originally, dismissed the passengers complaints and spent the remainder of the trip making small talke with my boyfriend and I and having a hard time keeping his hands form caressing our legs and arms.

So, I've learned one thing from my world travels and experiences: stereotypes of countries (especially America) are as erroneous as stereotypes of minority groups. I always assume the opposite of what the media and Hollywood tell us.

I forgot to mention the time I was getting a massage back at our hotel in Phuket, Thailand. The massuese, a large man originally from Turkey, had a raging hard on the entire time and had no issue pressing it into my sides. I'm sure he was waiting for me to respond, but being monogamous by nature, I ignored his poking prick and let him finish with the massage--without a happy ending.

Don't judge a whole country on one couples reaction. French Quebec's in general are very liberal compared to the Canadian English. So don't judge! American's in some parts of the US can be very tight assed. I know, I am American.

Fire fighter,

Please - Apples and Oranges!

You give happy endings after you put out a fire?

Come on! Some of you guys are like little children.

Yes, some of you are. Why should you be bothered if some guy and some LMT do a happy ending?

In your neck of the woods you don't do happy endings. Grand. It doesn't matter if LMTs do happy endings in my neck of the woods.

I'm not aware of any dentist service or fire service anywhere in the world that does happy endings.

I AM aware of cultures where happy endings are the norm. I am also aware of LMTs elsewhere that don't do happy endings.

Why is it such a big deal to make such a fuss over it?

Firefighter...

It has nothing to do with if "massage with happy endings" are norm or not in other cultures...

THIS IS WHY IT IS A BIG DEAL...

People who talk like that obviosly do not know what LMTs know. The apparently "simple" massage, when professionaly trained in almost medical way, is used as soft tissue therapy. LMT's have extensive background in the science of human anatomy, physiology, kinesiology, biomechanics, soft tissue and some systemic pathologies where soft tissue mobilization is contraindicated, etc, etc...

You don't need the kind of training and knowlege to give "happy ending."

I would certainly not referr ANY of my patients to "massage therapists" who will do happy ending. BECAUSE the ones who can safely give massage to a patient even with some form of illness is certified, and any certified massage therapist who would do happy endings will get thier license revoked.

"Happy ending" confuses the general public between highly trained LMT's from prostitutes. You dont need to know anatomy, physiology, biomecanics, the feel of abnormal tissues to give a "happy ending." You dont need to pass al the trainings and tests to be a sex worker.

"Hapy endings" further perpetuates general publics' lack of knowledge of the legit skills a LMT in comparion to prostitution.

That is why it is a big deal.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SEXUAL PROGRESSIVENESS. That is another topic entirely.

"Happy ending" perpetuates the general publics's misconeption of the difference between a hihgly trained LMT and a sex worker. The ignoramce of what you do not know about LMT training is the EXACT reason why this is a big deal!

People who confuses this topic with sexual progressiveness of US culture should just start another thread entirely on that topic.

What is the big deal? What is the big deal if your physician gives you a sensual prostate massage? You want a prostate massage, go to a prostitute. If a physician, a PA, a nurse, gives you a sensual prostate massage, some members of the general public would be so ignorant as to assume that it is OK to expect that from all physicians, PAs, and nurses.. JUST LIKE IN THIS THREAD...

Again, it is manipulative to drage sexual progressiveness into this discussion.

This is about distinguishing a legit and highly trained therapist from sex workes. A REAL PROGRESSIVE culture would not need to creat such confusion between 2 such DIFFERENT PROFESSIONS.

That would be like saying someone would expect a firefighter to go to bachleors party and do a strip tease dance...

So what is the big deal if some firefighters would strip in uniforms or offer sexual services?

The same thing! You wuold be fired, and you would perpetuate a myth of ignorance.

Imagine if someone tells someone that he is firefighter, instead of thanks and apprecaition, the person asks for a strip tease and "happy ending."

So a seuxally progressive culture would say "What is the big deal if some firefigheter do that?"

NOTHING TO WITH THAT...

How about this Firefighter..

A firefighter is not only expected to give CPR, but also to tongue kiss the person being recussited?

A EMS shuld also tongue kiss with their CPR?

Oh so if you think this is a big deal, then you need to be more progressive??

RKSportswear and NYCMusc4Musc...I'd give up on this thread if I were you. It's become a thread on whether prostitution should be allowed, or if anyone cares if a person performs sexual activity for pay. That is a different thread.

Any licensed professional who performs a sexual service for pay in this country is a prostitute. The only issue here is whethter that's something that should be expected...even though it's illegal.

So, not only for LMT/CMT professionals, but professors, fire fighters, doctors, dentists, certified public accountants...performing a sexual service for pay (or, in a couple of those cases, even for no pay), is illegal. RKSportswear doesn't want to give up his career, and I don't blame him, whether or not a person feels that it SHOULD be OK to do it.

So a firefighter better NOT be offended or insulted if he is expected to tongue kiss, do a lap dance naked...?

It has nothing to do with if firefighter do taht in other cultures.

It has to do with perpetuating ignorance.

And you know, you do see "firefighters" do that on TV... Because they are not real firefighters.. Similiarly, prostitutes are not real LMT's.

Fastprof..

I agree.

But that is what forums are for.

A healthy discussion is to make people challenge their critical and deductive reasoning skill, because we are not juveniles here to perpetuate ignorance, or worse yet, do this task while manipulatively distract others from the original topic being discussed.

Very well said NYC!

Hankbaseball..

That is such BS I can't even get into it..

Back up your comments.

Do you realize how retarded you sound on such a public forum?

Ignorance to a whole new level.

If what you said was even 1% truthful, he maybe a victim of incest, eing told by his mother that it is OK.. Have you ever pondered such a possibility?

Did you even check with other Koreans if incent is a norm?

What do you contribute to these discussions just show a lot about YOURSELF...

I really do not like to bash any specific members on here, but Hankbasball you are just asking for it...

You state incest as a norm in some Asian cultures as if its factual. Korea is not such a isolated culture that we know nothing about. If incest is the norm, it would ahve been known. Just like polygamy is the norm in some Islamic cultures, we know about that.

It is juvenile and absolutely RETARDED to perpetuate what you just said.

You know, the level of retardation and ignorance reflected in all your posts won't even get by a 6 year old!

You ought to think twice before embarrasing yourself publicly!

Unfortunately, LMT's have gotten so paranoid about their reputations that a "full-body" massage is HARDLY full-body. I got one last week and my chest, abs, inner thighs were completely ignored. Are there not muscles there? Maybe the abs are considered unnecessary, but why ignore the pecs and inner thighs?

This encourages the use of unlicensed therapists, who are not shaking in their slippers about the thoughts of touching a pec or two. I make sure I mention "no happy ending" (my personal choice) but am glad the rest of me gets massaged appropriately.

Hankbaseball,

I don't know if I should laugh or cry regarding your last post. Come one your friend is pulling donkey shit over your eyes.

summerguy,

You are correct and there has to be balance in the fullbody massage. Yes, the pecs, abs and thights are important. You should talk to your therapist about your concern.

I've gone to 5 different LMT's this past year and every one of them skipped these areas, so it's discouraging. I feel like if I ask them, "do you massage my pecs, abs and inner thighs" they'll automatically think I'm seeking something inappropriate.

A better way to handle this is to have a checklist on a form listing all potential body areas to massage (which should include everything but the genitals) and allow the client to check off any and all body parts he wants treated. Communication is the key.

Summerguy,

I suspect you live in an area where schools teach massage that way. The abs can be massaged and the thighs. The pecs are a bit different in that too much pressure on the heart area may not be good. Your therapist could massage the top of the pecsfrom the sternum to the shoulders.

Check with your state massage association and ask them. You could also ask on the phone prior to making an appointment.

There are some therapist that won't massage the glutes and it is one of our most used musssles.

Yes, communication is correct.

Hank... ?? I strongly suspect the veracity of that story. 'Might want to double check on that.

NYC:
I have been asked verbally or physically for sex pleasures while performing duties. There are always some people that fool around and you run across them or people they've fooled with as time passes.

It's not my thing and I don't satisfy patients in this fashion, nor do I feel it is commonplace or represented accurately by Hollywood.

Neither am I offended or disgusted by it. Every city has several frequent fliers that call 911 because they want attention and know the system well enough to make the right nature of complaint. You can't ignore a patient thus some form of evaluation needs to be done. Unfortunately the PT uses this as a form of satisfaction. Further, some EMS techs are happy to do it.

I don't feel that debating with you regarding LMTs is accomplishing anything in any fashion. It appears that you make an orthogonal distinction between an LMT and an LMT that is intimate. You're resorting to making personal attacks now which is an indicator that the debate is functionally ended.

fastprof:
My position is whether or not a 3rd party should get irate about something between two other parties. It is clear that in some areas such as here, some LMTs offer happy endings. Elsewhere they don't. Apparently even LMTs differ on opinions with respect to happy endings or they wouldn't offer them.

Discussing legal or not is moot because sexual service for pay is not illegal everywhere in the US but that is being ignored. Additionally, something being legal or not is often either ignored or heeded entirely at whim. As is enforcement thereof.

Regulated brothels are legal in Nevada except in Washoe (Reno) and Clark Counties (Las Vegas) and sex for money is legal in Rhode Island excepting brothels and street solicitation.

San Francisco decriminalized massage parlor prostitution and accomplished this in December of 2003 by splitting such activities into two differently regulated groups under the Health Department.

--

Many massage parlors that offer prostitution in most states list major national association membership in their yellow pages ads. There is no license, certification requirement, or minimum standard to gain association and and further certification by association in most massage associations.

State licensure bills on the other hand usually include language regarding training and schools for massage therapy.

Factually there is no requirement to join a specific association however many states have licensure language strongly implying that at least one association should be joined.

From another aspect, the regulation of massage therapy is quite new to the United States. Laws have only been enacted regarding this in the last 15 years. Some states did this to control prostitution and citing concerns of harm to the client. Other states studies show no conclusive evidence of such harm.

Today, approximately 2/3 of the US states regulate massage therapy.

Now as to prostitution in the rest of the world -- In most countries, and those signatory to the UN conventions, prostitution is legal. This convention was adopted by the UN General Assembly in 1949, to which all 89 member states signed except Germany, the Netherlands, and the United States.

Generally the global difference is that street prostitution is held illegal whilst other forms of prostitution (such as a brothel or private services) are legal. Some states regulate the services.

The intimacy offered by some massage therapists was inferred to have originated from some Asian countries. Note, referring to such a massage as an "Oriental" massage is incorrect and considered rude to people Asian countries. If specific, one should refer to as such; i.e. Japanese, Chinese, Korean, etc.

As it is quite common for men to experience sexual arousal, a massage therapist often induced orgasm when performing therapy. This should be distinguished from the particular intent of "getting a hand job" as the intended effect was treatment of the tissue, not sexual pleasure. Some cultures apply spiritualistic meaning and define various energies that are in need of channeling, releasing, or managing and include the orgasm as a particular aspect.

Such treatment and orgasmic responses have been "westernized", as some have said, to mean nothing but an erotic sexual experience as part of, or following, a massage.

--

Just perpetuating more juvenile ignorance that can be cited from a plethora of sources.

So are you a LMT...?

Did you go through all the courses as a LMT to make ANY claims you mentioned above?

I worked with many so I do know what trainng they go through.

EVERY LMT I have know are insulted with the happy ending suggesting. Only other so called "massage" therapists who has only gone through a weekend course or none at all seem NOT to mind.

Are you licensed massage therapist to make your points?

And dont give us that BS taht some massage therapy sessison end with unintented orgasm.

Your finger has to on the penis or inside the rectum to produce that effect.

Give me ANY medically documented cases where you can support waht you claim except some while myth, NOW THAT IS IGNORANCE.

I collected those statements from various sources including the AMA, AMMA, AMTA, CDC, state Departments of Health, Boards for lincensing, state law references, wikipedia, private and government studies, and personal, professional, and government websites regarding massage therapy and prostitution.

The majority of these statements are not mine directly, but culled from references.

The more I think about it the more manipulative your pots seems. It would only appease to those with no factual knowledge about the body and those with impaired deductive and rational reasoning.

I also worked with many PT who specializes in treating men s/p prostatectomy where the prudental nerve is cut.

Let me tell you, you dont just get a orgasm with no physiological stimulation. the receptors are on your penis, not on your glutes, not on you inner thighs!

Give me a break!

So give references.

Firefighter, I don't quarrel with the debate ongoing here. I do quarrel with the tendency for some to rant, name call, and then group those who have an opinion on this into categories (cutemascjock does this and a few others) with throwaaway terms like "secular humanists" to minimize the intellectual content of their opinions.

So except for the very last line of your post, which I do believe is an example of namecalling (even if it was in frustration), I do believe you have some interesting, worthwhile points.

For example,you said "fastprof:
My position is whether or not a 3rd party should get irate about something between two other parties...."

and

"...Additionally, something being legal or not is often either ignored or heeded entirely at whim. As is enforcement thereof..."

and

"...San Francisco decriminalized massage parlor prostitution and accomplished this in December of 2003 by splitting such activities into two differently regulated groups under the Health Department...."

I'll speak to your comments about San Francisco. San Francisco has not "decriminalized" massage parlor prostitution. The City has directed the state statutes not to be enforced. It's still illegal in California.

Here's boilerplate from the State of California website:

"... * Solicitation - Also known as Solicitation for Prostitution, the act of directing or asking someone to exchange money for sexual activity is defined under Section 647(b) of the California Penal Code.
* Prostitution - The act of exchanging money for sexual activity is known as Prostitution and defined under Section 653.20(a) of the California Penal Code.
* Pandering - The crime committed by a "pimp", Pandering is defined under Section 266(i) of the California Penal Code and is best described as:
o Solicitation of customers for prostitution services
o Recruitment of prostitutes for hire..."

So, I disagree with you. At least in California (and I am willing to wager, except for a couple of counties in Nevada, over the US..though you have now raised doubts...but only because I don't have the time to go and check, as I did for San Francisco), this is illegal activity. And as far as people who are LMT/CMT getting upset about it...I totally understand why they would.

It's illegal...and for a client to "assume" that an LMT/CMT would perform an illegal service (as was the starting point of this whole forum thread...please check the first two posts), I can understand how the LMT/CMT would feel, if not insulted, taken aback.

Especially from the AMA!

I dare you, give me a legit reference, not private and subjective, but sicentifically sound, instead of empty talk.

Wikipedia is NOT always accurate. The text can also be changed by hackers. I have personally seen some biographies altered with profanities everywhere...

Okay then...

You are of course free to attack me, but doing so won't affect the sources I collected from. I suggest you begin trawling with perhaps google and present your positions to webmasters in a more polite manner as you encounter sites that have a different perspective.

Good day to you

I am attacking ignorance.

You filled this with empty talk but no reference.. Give me one. Dont stray away from the topic of sexual progressiveness. This is not about that, this is about the distinction between a highly trained LMT and a sex worker.

You are not a licensed massage therapist or have much of education in anantomy, physiology, etc, etc.. Are you?

Ok again to hanks's defense I recall hearing about this same thing once on the Howard Stern show. This Asian guy called in and said his mother used to give him oral when he was a kid to reward him for good marks and doing his chores. I'm sure it's about as common in Asia as the sad stereotypes people have of Americans. But just for interest sake here is a blog that picks up this debate to prove we're not all nuts: http://friendfinder.com/blog/3150/post_20259.html?site=ff

As an addendum to the California penal code statutes I quoted above (two posts above), I also add this. This is not from the California penal code, but from an attorney who specializes in defense cases involving sexual pandering:

"...The advertisement may read, "Masseuse", "Personal Escort", or "Call Girl", but it most likely should read, "Prostitute for Hire!" Regardless of whether you are providing sex in exchange for money or receiving sex in exchange for payment, you are participating in a criminal offense punishable by California law! If you are found guilty of prostitution in California, you could face stiff penalties and end up with a criminal record.

"...In the major California cities, especially Los Angeles (including LA County) and San Francisco, law enforcement agencies have been making numerous prostitution arrests using any number of undercover methods, including:

* Sting Operations - Wearing provocative clothing and posing as prostitutes, police officers use this roadside method to lure would-be customers off the street and into the bedroom, only to be arrested for prostitution.

* Prostitution Ring Breakups - Using the reverse tactic from sting operations, police officers pose as customers seeking to find sex for hire. Once inside the supposed massage parlors or with the personal escort, the police will make arrests upon determining the falsehood of the organization.

* Sex Online - Websites galore offer services for companionship as a cover up for prostitution. Acting as potential customers for these Internet-based sites, law enforcement agencies are able to distinguish the legal from the illegal and make prostitution arrests accordingly. In Los Angeles, law enforcement is especially targeting online personal profile ads, such as those seen on Craig's List.org. With increasing Internet usage, sex-oriented websites are under close scrutiny for suspicious illegal sexual activities...."

Since when was Howard Stern a source of reliable information? Who are the people who listens to him and call in...? there are a lot of junvenile attention seekers.

I have friends who are in LTR with Korean born men.

Give me a break. If you take what coems out of Howard Sterns show as fact, your judgement sa an adutl is highly questionable!

Agree with Fastprof.

BOTTOM LINE IS:

If y oua re a LMT, with education backround in anaotmy, physiology, biomechanics, you would be insulted to be equated with a sex worker.

I dare FireFighter to support what he claims with reliable sources like AMA.

The way he talkes jsut showed how much lack of knowlege of the training LMTs go through, therefore he cannto make the distiction betoween a legit LMT and a sex worker.

If he has no knowledge of what LMTs know, he must NOT be one, and his claims are just heresay.

And Firefighter, dont quote sources you are not sure of..

I happen to work for the Government. I work for the VA hospital.

Prostitution is ILLEGAl and not "massage therapy" according to ANY US government documents.

fastprof,

my "juvenile ignorance" (towards myself) is the phrase that NYC attributed to me. i felt amused by it so i continued to use it when i snipped articles for my reply.

:)

thank you for the particular clarification on the SF bill. i read over several articles regarding that and some said it was no longer illegal and some simply didn't mention the legality of it. i did however leave only Nevada and RI in my previous paragraph when denoting areas where prostitution was specifically legal.

i should further clarify that the law in Nevada specifically states that it is legal in counties of less than 400,000 residents to license brothels if they so wish.

more specifically, it is also illegal Douglas and Lincoln county while Eureka county neither permits nor prohibits brothels (and does not have any). all other counties permit.

there are also laws regarding the particulars of prostitution once it has been permitted. acts, solicitation, location, employ thereof, etc.

if you wish to cover RI, we can dig up points to discuss on that when we have the time. (i'm growing short on time too)

i can understand why some LMTs can get upset or taken aback if asked to provide sexual service. that's not something i disagree on. my point that i was making was the question of why does one LMT get so agitated if an unrelated LMT chooses to offer that service, particularly 1/2 a continent away?

it becomes a personal opinion based on their perception of the massage therapy practice. if an LMT begins offering intimacy, that doesn't make any of the training that LMT took any worthwhile or make the LMT any less trained in managing muscle tissue therapy.

we have established the legal points.

we had a married president in office that took sexual favors from a 3rd party woman.

that clearly is illegal on many grounds. in like manner, some people got more than a bit riled up and some people still wonder why all the fuss.

whether or not it is illegal for the profession, for the fidelity, or any other reason is not so much the point as that some people considered it improper and some people don't care.

and so in this manner. some people (strongly) consider it improper and some people don't care.

cheers

Again, why is this topic straying away from the distinction between LMTs and sex workers. This is not a discussion about culture or values.

If Firefighter cannot produce any of the legit sources he said he can produce, namely the AMA and govenement sicentific studies, then THIS WOULD SPEAK BY ITSLEF his claims.

FireFighter:

Your own wrods:

"if an LMT begins offering intimacy, that doesn't make any of the training that LMT took any worthwhile or make the LMT any less trained in managing muscle tissue therapy."

So are you a LMT speaking from experience?

That statement can ONLY be made by a LMT. Let a LMT like Rksportswaer speak for LMTs. If you are not a LMT, and have no formal and legit training as a LMT, DO NOT MAKE THAT CLAIM for all other LMTs.

That in itself is an insult.

Let the LMTs speak for themselves!

just for clarification regarding a typo i made. in a recent post i said "if an LMT begins offering intimacy, that doesn't make any of the training that LMT took any worthwhile or make the LMT any less trained in managing muscle tissue therapy."

the word i unintentionally deleted from that sentence is "less".

thusly, "... took any less worthwhile ..."

my apologies. i can't expect everyone to correctly infer that i meant to include "less"

Fire Frighter,

Let's get back to my original question. When you make an appointment with a new LMT in your area, do you expect sexual manipulation?

And the other question was why do you expect it if you do?


I know elderly people in RI and they go to a LMT and I am sure 100% that they don't get happy endings. So RI may allow prostitution but I am sure that a majority of LMT do not do "happy endings" in the state of RI.

Secondly, I am as American as you. I lived in the US most of my life. So let's not get into a civil war about this while thing.

My main concern is to educate some folks about the LMT profession. We have a code of ethics, we know more about muscle and soft tissue then most physicians, We are under the health care system and can legally issue insurance reciepts.

Lastly, Don't feel that I am upset, I am just trying to figure out how the "scum balls" that expect sexual pleasures think.

Perhaps LMT's should get respected one day once all the uneducated folks know the difference between a LICENCED Massage Therapist and an "unlicenced rubdown prostitute."

I know this is off the topic..

I also wanted to point out some inconsistencies about your remark about sexual progressiveness...

"Actually through my own personal interractions with other cultures and people, I'd say the most sexually uptight people I've ever met were Canadians, Swedes, Germans and Chinese. The most sexually expressive would be Arabs and Americans."

That is a problematic generalization. I live in an arab country for years... I can tell you what you stated there about arabs are sooooooooo far from the truth. I was not a tourist, I lived there and went to school there.

Sorry the above quote was from cutejockmasc.

I am very good at what I do in term of working with muscluar dysfunction.

I can only say one thing. If I did offer sexual manipulation, I feel that my inner spirit would die. My intuition would not be as acute.

I personally would feel cheap! Very very cheap!

So my question is what was the extent and quality of your personal interactons with all these different cultures to make that claim? Is it a limited setting like how some people the only koreans they interact are their dry cleaners? Or is it under a highly superficail circumstance like a tourist?

To make any intelligent and consistant statement that carries any meaning, one must support it with reliable evidence. If the evidence comes from personal experiences, then the experiences must be of an indepth understanding of the experience.

Otherwise, it actually would show less credibility of your claims.

I suggest you read the book called TOUCHING:THE HUMAN SIGNIFICANCE OF THE SKIN By Ashley Montagu

RK,

i haven't gone to an LMT yet with the intent of getting or asking for a happy ending.

to be honest i haven't even had a hooker or ever traded money for sex.

not my thing.

i have friends that i hang out with that do go to LMTs and get happy endings and some of the LMTs here advertise for it in magazines like 411, Hotspots, etc. it is offered and they expect it.

if i were going to get a rub and a rub from a certain LMT, pun intended, i might expect it because it's offered and i've heard about it from many people here.

perhaps that is the most simple answer to your question.

Q why do you expect it?
A i'm told it is offered.

regarding the LMT profession, in general the regulation of it in the US is less than a generation old. it will probably take some time to educate people about the code of ethics you hold. it may be somewhat testing of your patience at times due to the perspective some people have.

i disagree with your labeling of scum balls and orthogonal respect for LMTs.

i don't hold an LMT in any less regard of his profession because he does happy endings for some customers nor do i equate him to the unlicensed body rub person.

a "scum ball" is a perspective. remember, another person might consider you a scum ball for seeing another person mostly naked and for touching their body, or for the fact that you sleep with men, or have had sex outside the confines of an ordained marriage, or have masturbated.

please :) different people share or don't share different perspectives, values, morals, and ethics.

Thanks Rksportwear..

Exactly. All the LMTs I have known and who has spoken in this forum AGREED that "happy ending" would be insulting and undermine the reputation of legit massage therapy. Prostitution or a hand job under the name of "massage therapy" would only perpetuate the ignorance already out there about LMTs. It does not help the public to distinguish a legit hihgly trained LMTs from a sex worker.

So unless you are a LMT, unless you have the legit and formal training as a LMT, you just CANNOT say "Why would anyone care if someone posses as a hihgly trained LMT while they are actually prostitutes?" THERE IS A REASON WHY YOU CAN LOOSE YOUR LEGIT LICENSE IF YOU DO HAPPY ENDING.

You are not a LMT, otherwise you would understand why that is so insulting.


And where are the quotes from AMA and governement studies that y ou said you know?

I doubt if the LMTs your friend goes to is a legit LMT... You have seen the licens personally?

That is also why it is such an insult o perpetuate this myth.. You already said it yourself taht you expcet one because it is offered by a LMT? Ask to see the licens. I assure you that this "massage therapsit" would not be able to produce one.

Firefighter,

Thank you for responding, I appreciate it.

Fire Fighter,

Next time you go for a massage ask for a reciept for insurance. If they give you one most likly the person is licenced.

Also, give your local massage association a call and ask if it is legal or ethical under thier code.

Then once you know you can let us know. Thanks.

Please don't put all the LMT in the same category. Thanks.

Firefighter, so let me separate out your two main points:

1. Clients should NOT expect that LMT/CMTs will give happy endings (which is the original post);

but that

2. If there are LMT/CMTs who choose to do that, it's their "business" (meaning, they've made a study of the law, and a reasoned judgment to engage in prostitution).

If that is an accurate summary...well, then, I agree on both.

On (1), that's what a bunch of us reacting to the original subject line have been saying. So good.

On (2), I mean, I don't personally believe that LMTs/CMTs SHOULD do that, but if they want to, I guess I'd say to them, you're nuts, but "go crazy." If they lose their license, or get arrested, so be it.

fastprof, sorry to be short but it's time for me to scoot. correct on both accounts and similar to my first post on this about a month ago.

rk, i'm not grouping all lmts, i've implied differences several times.

cheers

Excellent post Fastprof!

The 2 points you made hit the spot.

But FireFighter did NOT quite agree to the first point you made.

His quote:
"Q why do you expect it?
A i'm told it is offered."

There are just contradictions in Firefighters posts..

"if i were going to get a rub and a rub from a certain LMT, pun intended, i might expect it because it's offered and i've heard about it from many people here."

So you help perpetuate that unjust myth that undermines the legit skills and training of a LMT by posting remakrs such as "What is the big deal?"

"i don't hold an LMT in any less regard of his profession because he does happy endings for some customers nor do i equate him to the unlicensed body rub person."

Well, to add sex service to any massage treatment, performed by LMTs or everyday prostitutes with no knowledge of anatomy or physiology, is in itself undermining the LMT profession and an insult to all legit LMTs out there who worked so hard to go through their traiings and worked up a legit reputation.

Anyone, the client, or an everyday prostitute, or even a LMT who is not practicing according to code and law, who is adding sexual service for pay IS holding the profession of LMTs in disregard, intentionally or not!

So the fact that you would expect "happy ending" from a LMT just because you heard from unreliable sources (your friends saw the licence?) in itself is a disregard to LMT profession, no matter how you put it.

Re: Germans uptight about nudity

I'd wager that those German hikers were an anomaly, because saunas in Germany are usually unisex with everyone naked.

A couple of questions:

I'm curious whether there's an ethical transgression people would regard as worse than providing a happy ending.

I'm also curious if there's any circumstance under which genital massage/manipulation would be considered appropriate. Frankly, I have sent clients with sexual blocks to people who do erotic massage, and I've INSISTED they be CMTs, often with some psychology training too. This work has been enormously helpful to several of my clients who had fears about being touched, were non-orgasmic, etc.

Part of what's obvious here is that genital massage is being inevitably trivialized as a "happy ending," sexual pleasure for pay, when it may be addressing a genuine block.

Some codes of ethics prohibit psychotherapists from touching their clients at all. I've had friends in the field get licensed as massage therapists in order not to violate the ethical code (although I don't really see how this protects them). Touch can be an important part of people's psychotherapy, but it's controversial too. Do you think it should simply be banned from the consulting room?

Does intention have no place in this?

Obscenewish,

Firstly, Where did you get your degree? I understand the unblocking thing but you don't have to touch someones genitals to be helpful. I have had psychologist refer male clients to me to experience being touch by a male. due to all sorts of reasons. But what the hell are you thinking and what is the purpose in a genital massage. You probably know the anatomy of the penis better than I.

Secondly, Why not start a new post on your last question?

That is a very interesting question...

Your clients require massage for the purpose beyond only the physiological therapy. You are speaking of sexual blocks. This is probably a grey area, remember the film I talked about.. the Sexual Surrogate?

I can see how you need someone who is profecient both in anatomy and physiology in addition to some psychotherapy background..

The sad truth is, I am not sure if there is any "specialization" of massage in combination to psycho therapy dealing with sexual blocks today... That is another can of worms.. Then you need to define it, set up criterias to meet to receive such kind of combined therapies, document outcomes in a measurable way, etc, etc..

I know in PT, there are therapists specialized in pelvic integration therapy treating patients with abnormal sphinctor muscle issues, anythign from post prostatectomy to constipation to separated pubic symphysis after birth, etc, etc. But it is NEVEr done with any sexual overtone and as soon as a patient is getting arounsed, the therapy stops and take a break.

That still does not equate with someone with a weekend course in "erotic massage" giving a client a hand job after massage..that is not psycho therapy, that is not legit massage therapy, that is still just prostitution.

Wow, This is why the world is screwed up cause there are professionals that need help too.

Another question for Obscenewish..

I remember watching the documentary film Sexual Surrogate.. There were some men who became emotionally attached to this woman, attached like a guy in love with a woman.

Now I know transference is well known in therapy where a patient can feel very close to the therapist and get very attached, but to intorduce a sexual component to this can potentially be harmful to the patient, who can be very vulnerable to all this, confusing a professional relationship with an intimate one. I thought taht was the exact reason why you can get your license revoked if you cross that line.

Now the same argument goes witht he sex surrogate. Isnt this more productive if the sexual education is performed with someone the patient is emotinally close and feels safe with other than the therapist?

Then the same question is asked to sending your patients to a LMT who would get your patients errotically stimulated... What if the patient gets attached to this kind of setting of intimate touch as the norm and cannot distiguish a professional relationship form an intimate one? Liek the one I saw inthe film? I thought that poor old man was more F*&ed up after the experience witht he sex surogate than befor e he started..

How do you justify this type of therapy? How do you prevent the risks mentioned above? Is this within the practice code of psychotherapsits?

"I'd wager that those German hikers were an anomaly, because saunas in Germany are usually unisex with everyone naked."

So are most American college dormitories after midnight. I'll wager they are more fun than a german public sauna.

Obscenewish,

Do you belong to the APA? If you do would they recommend the same for unblocking clients?

And you are right RKsportswear.

I dont think any health professionals are taught how to "touch" the genitalia in an erotic manner.

Do you need to go to school to learn that...? A teenager knows how to do that to hiself instinctually.

And if you have issues of others touching your genitalia, or a sexual block, isnt that better to instruct someone who is calse to the patient, such as his partner, as a couple therapy, to carry this out?

NYC,

I cound not have said it better! Your last post is perfect.

RK: I was reluctant, because of your reflexive intolerance, to even bring this up, but I am hardly unique in encountering such problems. Ordinarily, I send such clients to sex therapists, but they also often operate in a gray area and they are absurdly expensive.

I did not say my clients got aroused necessarily and, of course, direct masssage of the genitals is not necessarily the case. In one case that I referred, the client had had a testicle removed and was too neurotic to let anyone touch his remaining one. These sorts of things are not rare. It's not about getting the client off.

I have sent several clients to a therapist in Canada, actually, who is renowned for his work with sexual blocks. My clients have been nothing but grateful.

That is one thing I've noticed in this discussion: not much acknowledgment of the client's needs, desires or benefits derived. Of course, I'm not talking about a mere physical release at the end of a massage.

I have a friend who is an LMT who does mainly corporate work but he has the interesting side-specialty of helping gay men who have anxieties about being fucked. He uses hypnosis, doesn't penetrate them himself, but is still working with a sexual problem and does massage their buttocks. People don't get off but they certainly get benefits.

And, NY, as it happens, in a client who had literally never orgasmed with another male, I prescribed the Body Electric because, like tantric massage, it de-emphasizes genital orgasm for a Reich-like whole-body experience. This helped the client de-pathologize his experience. The person who organized the Body Electric for many years is a good friend. Although I have had mixed success with referrals to them, I know that the program has done a lot of good for many people.

Finally, I might mention that in groups I conduct, I often have a body worker present because it is so much easier to uncover emotional material when movement and touch are involved. One of these is an LMT with training in Core Energetics and a degree in somatic psychology. In my experience and training, there is far more to massage than physiotherapy. You have heard of somatic psychology, I assume.

Uh, NY, I do not do sexual work with clients. I refer them for exactly the reason you mention: transference. But a sex therapist works with transference.

"he has the interesting side-specialty of helping gay men who have anxieties about being fucked."

Wow, and I thought I was the only one who practiced that!

LOL...That's always my line to him.

NYC,

Correct again, Any fool can massage genitals cause it is mainly made up of spongy tissue. Like you said, anyone can do this.

The muscles are another issue, as muscle fibers run in a direction from one inserted tendon to the other tendon attachement. This takes training. When you massage you always massage in the direction with the blood flow to the heart and from tendon to tendon.

I dont think many peiople here are familair with sex therapy as much as you do, Obscenwish.

And I dont doubt there are patients who have the need of this type of therapy and can greatly benefit from it.

My only questions is what is the risk to benefit ratio of having a professional therapist, LMT or psychotherapist, perform this intimate physical act, whithout creating possible harm to the patient when it all ends? Does the benefit outweight the risk? Is there another means to achieve similar outcomes without the same risk or involving a professional to perform this task?

Furthermore, I ask again, would it it be more productive if a partner of the patient is actively involved in the recovery of the patient, learning whatever he or she can, and be the actual person to carry out the physical part of the act?

Since the BodyElectric seems to be a workshop taht does nto require any advanced pre-requesite knowledge such as extensive anatomy and physiology science background to participate, anyone who is not a trained LMT, anyone who wishes without any therapuetic traiing background, can attend. So I can assume that BodyElectric can be learned between a couple, the performed to eachother in their own intimate setting, instead of having a person of professional relationship performing this act.

The examples you mentioned, woldnt it be better if this was taught to a partner to perform?

I just cant get over remembering that poor old man in the film. I think he would have fairee better not having getting therapy from a sex surrogate...

And I also assume there is a reason why this can get your license revoked?

Yes, and a lot of my patients I referr to LMTs are diabetic with peripheral neuralvascual issues. A LMT has to understand waht is normal and not normal, what is contraindicated, and how to follow medical instructions fro other health care professionals.

This is not something you learn from a weekend course.

I would not dare sending a diabetic or post surgical or burn patient to a non licensed "massage" therapist who performs "Happy endings." They can do more harm to my patients.

I jsut need to inform many on this forum the extend of skills L a LMT has.

What if the patient has lymphedema, CHF, history of orthostatic hypotention, joint contractures, spasticity, rigidity, scars, lipoma, neuroma, RH, etc, the list goes on.

Who do you stretch a patient with some of the above pathologies?

What if the LMT while masaging discovers something abnormal and suspicous with some tissue? Would a normal person pick this up and infomr this to the patients physician?

The distinction between a highly triend LMT and a sex worker is HUGE.

NYC,

Actually, You could kill a diabetic. The condition can affect the peripheral circultation, especially in the feet, causing the tissues to become more brittle and fragile. Also if the person has a blood clot in the lower extremities and it disengages it can go to the lungs and jam causing the client to die within minutes.

I usually don't work on the legs of certain clients unless it is recommended by thier doctor.

That depends ath stage of the DM is... ANd also depends if the patient is on warfarin. If they are on, you have to wathc for bruises but since the blood INR level is at the right level, there is no danger of blood clots. I would never send a patient at risk of a PE to a LMT for massage.

So no, you cannot kill all diabetic patients with massage...

Many of my diabetic patients do quie well with massage.

And that is where the training of a LMT comes in.

If a diabetic patient I send to a LMT for massage has since developed extensive peripheral neuralvascual issues, the LMT has to wathc for signs and symptons. Is the skin so hiney the the feet going into Charcoot Feet?

If the above symtons are not present, you cannot make the ciruclation so poor in a diabetic to cause the tissue to become brittle. Prior extensive vascualr damage has to occur first, and you can tell by the skin, hair, color, tissue feel, all of that..

By the way PE is pneumo embolism...can be caused by a blood clot. And yes it is lethal.

Similarly, A LMT should know the lower extremeity tests for blood clots. Blood clots usualy occurs at blood vessles where the laminar flow is disturbed, such as the popliteal vein behind the knee. Althought we have seen patients with chronic blood clots as high up at the femeral veing byt he inguinal ligament with no symptons at all...

So massaging the feet would highly be unlikely to cause a blood clot and a PE.

I hope Rksportswear and I have provided some insight into the training of a LMT.

Would a prostitute know the Homans sign? Waht if a prostitute massages a person in the calves with positive Homans sign and dislodges a blood clot, and the patient dies right there onthe table from respiratory failiure!

NY:

The Body Electric is not about physiotherapy or somatic psychology. It was founded as tantric massage repackaged for contemporary gay men. (It has expanded to women and couples.) It has a therapeutic value because it teaches a different approach to sex, addresses so-called looksism, de-emphasizes the primacy of the genital orgasm, etc. It situates pleasure in a more than strictly physical context.

I do not routinely refer clients to it because it does not provide time for psychological processing even though the facilitator is a psychotherapist and LMT. In a few cases, though, with non-orgasmic men, it has been a good fit. If you looked at the website, you saw that the faculty is highly educated and includes mental health professionals.

It does not represent itself as anything other than experiental erotic education. I don't know what would be illegal or unethical about that.

I do not know a sex therapist who does "hands on" work. I have referred some clients to a husband-wife team of psychologists who do sex therapy, but no touch by the shrinks is involved.

I agree that involving a partner in sex therapy is ideal. However, it should be no surprise that many people who need sex therapy can't sustain a relationship.

As for the business about LMTs who do therapeutic work with sexual issues, I don't know if they are violating the law or ethics, since the point is not immediate pleasure. I would certainly hope that anyone of average intelligence could discern between jerking people off for cash and providing a safe experience of erotic touch for people who have sexual issues/blocks. It's hard to imagine the entire profession being compromised by such work.

Transference: It is not something one avoids. It is inevitable and, in the psychoanalytical tradition, it is the negotiation of the transference that brings about resolution of the problem.

The transference, ideally, is the bridge by which the client assumes a healthier orientation to the "real world."

Of equal concern with an LMT who did not have training in somatic psychology would be the counter-transference. But, yes, I think it would take a pretty phenomenal personality to negotiate a sexual transference, which is common, that actually permitted touch.

Now that makes a LOT more sense.

As long as BodyElectric does not pass it self as phsiotherapy or massage therapy (even if its taught by high edcucated professionals), I can see that it has its own therapeutic values.

I dont think I am alone here who has very little knowledge of sex therapy. Hence it is important to be educated in order to avoid any misconception and the consequent unfounded gross judegements that can result from the lack of knowledge.

At least I can see the therapeutic values, with its pros cons, of sex therapy.

However, this forum was build onthe topic of expectation of hihgly trained LMTs to perform prostitution. This existing myth also comes from lack of knowledge of the practice of legit massage therapy...

In recent years, Body Electric has undergone some reorganization, but it used to be a complete LMT training school. BE also used to offer "Sacred Intimate" training (maybe they still do; I don't know), which is far more extensive and advanced than the weekend and week-long erotic massage courses I took a few years ago.

Oh, I know the "happy ending" is a major problem for LMTs. I actually attended the graduation from massage school of a former client last week. He has done most of the Body Electric stuff too and benefited enormously from it. So I'll be interested to see where he falls on this issue.

I have never met a gay man who didn't have "issues" about his body. I assume it's because we are taught from a young age that our core appetites are evil or sick. So, many gay men "disassociate" from the body or they become obsessed with armoring it with muscle. Gay culture is actually organized around body types and presentation -- twink, bear, muscleboy, etc.

That's why I consider bodywork central to psychological work with most gay men. Your skin is your interface with the world and if you're not comfortable in it, you're not gonna be happy in any general way.

"BE also used to offer "Sacred Intimate" training (maybe they still do; I don't know), which is far more extensive and advanced than the weekend and week-long erotic massage courses I took a few years ago."

Hmmm, I didn't know they were actually training LMTs, Paradox. I've never heard my friends mention that and I don't see any mention of it on their website, either. So apparently they've stopped.

So I am now curious waht is your view on sex surrogates...?

I don't have an opinion about surrogates. I had the experience myself in my mid-20s and thought it was pretty absurd. The surrogate was a psychiatrist. I think she enjoyed it.

All I an say is, if SHE enjoyed it,...YIKES!

Is this still done today and is it legal?

It is completely unethical and, unfortunately, it happens a lot. However, I don't think most people represent it as therapeutic.

Just did some research online, and apparently sex surrogate industry is still alive and well..

They even have network organizations such as the ESA and IPSA...

Just check out this research study onthe role of sex surrogates:

http://www.sexquest.com/surrogat.htm

Then again many other research shows it does not work and the studies that proves it works are seriously flawed. And just like massage, some even capitalize as prostitution in disguise. Just check out this site for hiring sex surrogates:

http://www.sexsurrogate.com/

As you see, the pictures are of porno actreess with huge jugs in costumes... Very legit!

Also, LMTs must be certified in certain areas of competence. To give you an example: LMTs must be trained in certain area to work with clients with cancer, fibromialgia and the list goes on. Referal is always best when one is not trained in certain areas.

Just like an MD a LMT could spend the rest of his career in school to know everything.

There are 100's of techniques as well like swedish, amma, tragger and the list goes on.

I have to say that I have a massage usually once a month. I have had alot of different people give me massages. I never act towards a sexual massage but over the years I have had the massage therapist act on it with me. Sometimes its been a pleasure and other times I was not prepared for the advance and found it completely unprofessional.

It is unprofessional!

Actually it is unethical here for the therapist to brush up against the client.

I have two perspectives on this first...
I love massages and I find them very relaxing
but I don't necessarily find them sexually exciting...but that depends on the get go
If my boyfriend's giving it to me then I'm up and ready
but if I go for a swedish massage at a spa
I'm more likely to fall asleep beause its so relaxing
...but lots of times I had to say to a therapist
...hey wait bud..that's not what I signed on for
usually if the guys cute I'll let him continue but it's not supposed to happen
I was in a relationship with a therapist a few yrs back and he used to complain about it
that guys sometimes expected it

GQjock,

Great add, that is my questions: Why do some guys expect it? Your therapist asks the same question.

I have been told many times by both men and women that I am cute, but that does not justify a happy ending.

My optomitrist is drop dead gorgeous and married with children, I "respect him and his profession" and don't expect a happy ending.

Most prostitutes will give you a little massage if you request it. Perhaps the guys expecting happy endings should see a prositute.

Most massage therapist are in the profession to help people and understand the benifits of a professional massage (either relaxation or theraputic). We spend many hours in courses learning the human body and how it functions. Understanding the muscular system, movement, dysfunctions and where the muscle tendons are inserted and attached. Most personal trainers and doctors don't know this stuff.

So next time you go for a massage, If the person is certified (they will be able to issue insurance reciepts) they deserve that respect that you give your family doctor or dentist.

I think the myth and the inappropriate expectations of a LMT to provide sexual service to clients have roots from the following factors:

1. The general public is unaware of the skills and the training involved in becoming a LMT. A lot of the general public thinks of "massage" as just a "rub."

2. Many of the general public or knows someone who had recieved sexual services from prostitutes who call themselves "massage therapists" with no formal training in massage therapy, either in this country or else where. In addition to the media (you still see it in movies where massage takes place in Asian brothels,) the myth just perpetuates itself.

3. On top of all the above, massage is a rather personal and initmate experience. The client is naked and there is physical contact with the LMT. Although the setting is very professional at a legit LMT practice, it still does not feel as CLINICAL as getting a vaginal, rectal, or breast exam from a doctor. AND the touch feels good, not like being ona cold table as a hospital or clinic... So the experience of a legit massage is very unique when compared to other services in the fitness/health field...

If one lacks the understanding of the training and professionalism of a LMT, had some prior exposure to the myth of "happy ending," and when getting the massage, feeling very relaxed, some just assume they might as well cross the professional boundary and say:"I am already naked and feeling great, why not just turn this experience into another dimension..."

That is why it is very important for everyone, out of respect for legit and highly skilled LMT's, to learn more about what LMT's do and know, and also to stop perpetuating the myth associating massge with sexual services instead of giving recognition to the profession based on its skills and training.

If that is done, you have taken out #1 and #2 from the list above. Therefore you can just enjoy the experience as in #3 without being disrepectful to the the profession...

Wow NYC,

Very Very well said!

Great answer NYC as usual!! I think this topic has been well covered---NEXT

As it happens, the feature article in the San Diego Weekly Reader for the week of May 17th is titled: "Touchy Business" and is about massage and there is considerable material on "happy endings".

The State of California laws (as referenced by fastprof) not withstanding, here's the position of the San Diego Police Department regarding what is healing and what is not massage:

(Quoted from the article:)

"San Diego Police Lieutenant of Vice Operations Carolyn Kendrick has 28 years of experienct at the police department, and her own mother is a retired holistic health practitioner. Her vice-operations unit has seven administrative officers on staff and regulates over 50 industries."

(Quote from Officer Kendrick to The Reader:)

"In the City of San Diego, a holistic health-care practioner [HHP] requires 1000 hours in education. And under the auspices of that title, an HHP can touch you anywhere on your body, as long as that person that they're working on is consensual, and they're not offended in a sexual manner. If they say they are, then that practicioner needs to cease right there. If not, then we could move forward if that person wants to issue a crime case on that. So an HHP can touch you anywhere on your body. That's the nature of their art or their remedy. And that requires the 1000 hours. Then you step down to the 500-hour requirement for a massage therapist. Now, a massage therapist is not free to touch you everywhere on your body. They have to go by certain guidelines, and they also usually work under an employer's guidelines, whereas an HHP can work outside of someone's guidelines or direction......we do prosecute people who go beyond what is legal..."

[On a different tack and for what it's worth:]

I think it was obscenewish who indicated early in this thread that Atlanta has 3 massage schools, so it there are lots of massage therapists there. By way of comparison, according to The Reader article, there are at least 10 massage colleges in the San Diego area, and one of the colleges that they interviewed graduates 150 new massage trainees every year.

pdsurfer,

Thats for that info.

Rick

Ok when I get a massage normally(depending if they are good with their hands or not) I'm feel so freakin good I mayh get a boner(haven't yet) but I don't expect any sex. I'm just feeling so good I don't want them to stop and I don't want to move, but that is just me!

I think if you want to sleep with someone then you need to ask them out, get to know them, and etc..you know go through the right channels so to speak. Just cause you're paying someone to rub you and help you(I'm aware of the benefits of a massage) doesn't mean your paying for sex. I would find it insulting if I was at my job and someone asked me to jack them off(that would be interesting though at a toy store lol!You have to admit)

You're getting paid to give them a service yes, but your not getting paid to get them off, you're not a whore. I have given a massage and slept with the person but it was my boyfriend the BOTH of us were expecting it lol. Personally if someone grabbed me or asked me to jack them off I would just point them towards the door, or throw them through it, which ever works at the time

I get a massage rarely (maybe once or twice a year)... had one a few weeks ago after a half-marathon.

I typically request a male therapist to avoid sexual harrassment scenarios (ie, if I get hard, could a female therapist get offended/charge harrassment?). I don't know and don't care, but it's not worth the risk.

During my sports massage, I was so relaxed and did get hard -- generally when he first started on new body areas. The boner gradually went down but came back. No problem when I was face-down, but when I turned over, there my boner was poking up through the sheet.

I didn't say anything, and it kept waxing and waning through the rest of the session. No funny business either, thankfully. I had done some reading on massages and knew that a hard-on is a normal response to touch/relaxation, so what's the big deal?

Anyway, it was an awesome sports massage and the hard-ons were no big deal and felt normal given the environment. If you have a professional therapist, I'm sure they've seen it before and nothing to worry about.

Since you're paying for it, anything sexual during the session is along the lines of prostitution, I would surmise.

You know, as a certified massage therapist, it's really held me back from advertising directly in the gay community. First, the periodical typically puts the massage therapy classifieds right next to the escorts, which doesn't really help out. Second, I find a lot of massage therapists provide body stats on themselves in their ads. Now why would you have to do that if you were a professional massage therapist providing a wellness service? Third, yes, I have found that many (I don't want to say most, because I don't think my individual experience should set the standard) gay men that ask about massage end up asking about the 'happy ending.' You know what? If you have 50 minutes on my table, and I'm working on your lower back, your neck, your shoulders, your tight hamstrings or quads, or your feet, you're going to want to maximize every minute of that therapeutic experience. If you don't, either you're not there for that, or I'm not doing my job well.

Bottom line, though, at 65 dollars an hour, if you expect me to be touching you there, you're not just calling me a ho, you're calling me a cheap ho.

OK, gratuitous advertisement, if you're in central NJ, and you want a real, professional massage, feel free to contact me at RelaxNJ.com.

Bob

As a Sports Massage Therapist I can say Ive never found clients with an expectation of anything vaguely sexual; indeed we have to go out of our way to make everything extremely non sexy!!

Everyone hears "the stories" that do the rounds, however. lol

Just now working on getting my license after coming out of massage school. This thread is definitely appreciated! I was wondering how to handle some of the situations I'm bound to run in to. I went to massage school to be a healer, not a hooker.

No dis to those in the sex industry- you serve a need too. It's just not a boundary I'm comfortable in crossing.

This is an interesting topic. My bf is an massage therapist and he does not do "happy endings". He tries very hard to screen his clients and if they give any indication that a happy ending is what they are looking for...he either asks them to leave or he puts them on the "no take" list. A few times he has had to confront someone who was on the "no take" list and tell them "why". They don't get it.

now, when he massage me...that is a different story!! LOL

I think a happy ending or release probably is prostitution is most every state. I like massage therapists since they are trained and what I want is a massage. If I wanted to pay for sex ( which I don't) I'd go to a prostitute.

I just finished Mike Jone's book "I had to say something" about his life and Ted Haggart. I've know Mike for years as a trainer and I knew he advertised massages and gave happy endings but I also know he had no training

RK, How is orgasm related at all to Massage Therapy? If you are giving such a sensual massage that orgasm is related or even if you are "brushing the genitals" and then get offended when someone asks for a little more then I don't know what to tell you. I've been doing Therapuetic massage and energy work for 5 years now and never once has someone had an orgasm on my table. When going to a hotel or to someones home I have it explictly stated that "this is a non sexual massage" they have to sign it or I don't provide the service. I'm not saying that the situation has never come up because it does and will no matter what, guys are persistent when they want something and that's fine.

This conversation may have already happened but I read one of RK's replies and jumped down to reply to it.

sexual stimulation is the last thing i encounter during a massage whether professional or just from my honey. if i go to a spa i request the biggest strongest man or woman to kick my ass. a good massage always puts me right to sleep. no hard on for this guy!! so i would never expect a little extra cuz at that point of the hour nothing like that is bound to happen anyway!

No..
If you want sex get an escort that does massage.

I've had lots of professional massage, from both men and women, primarily because I'm such a stress-monkey. The one guy who gave me a "happy ending" to wake me up (yes, I fell asleep on the table) never saw me again.

When I orgasm, muscles tighten up... which is exactly the opposite of why I go to see a massage therapist.

Nearly ALL, gay oriented back alley massage places in my country give happy ending. Its a norm. You need to be naked and they will climb on your body stimulating your sexual nerve. Just like a prostitute places there row of young boys to choose from. They oil they body and yours and call it aroma massage. They will masturbate you at the end of the therapy. If you start touching them, than they required extra tips because they have go beyond their work scope. This is illegal and the operator, massuer and the customer can be prosecuted if caught.

Only professional massage therapy , in respectable and licence massage spa or traditional straight massage expect you to put you short pant on. I am so used of getting "finish of" that I feel the massage is not completed without one.

No, I don't expect it. My regular masseuse knows I am gay, would be highly insulted by the idea, and frankly I am afraid of her husband (who's a hell of a nice guy). I get massages at least a couple times a week.

I have rarely been offered that service by other therapists. I know of NO reputable massage therapist who would do something like that (at least that wants to keep their reputation). When I have been offered that it was because I made the mistake of calling a 'gay masseuer or massage therapist' rather than just a massage therapist. Maybe it's 'code' or something.

If that was what I wanted I would hire a prostitute.

I don't expect it at all... and would probably feel molested if I did.

I don't even have the ability to get a massage from a stranger, let alone have them fondle me afterwards

I had a similar experience where I fell asleep during a massage, only to wake up and find the therapist sucking me. What a shock! Needless to say, that guy no longer has a license.

A few weeks ago I went for a massage. I was seeking a "legit" massage with a certified masseur. He was very professional and has been providing massages for several years. I wasn't seeking anything extra and wasn't expecting anything extra.

By the end of the session we ended up having sex. It really took me by surprise. I left feeling great and puzzled.

Now I really don't know what to expect when I go for a massage no matter how they advertise themselves.

Chicago_swimmer,

I know of a great massage therapist that just moved to Chicago who is also trained in physiotherapy, and I guarantee that you wouldn't have that problem with her. Message me if you want her number.

I think one of the main problems here is that, despite the insistence that no legit therapist would ever "go there," it is often the case that they do actually go there. I've only ever gone to legit places for massages - either high-end spas or to therapists that specifically advertise that they are legit only - and have repeatedly encountered therapists signifying that they are ready and willing to take it to the next level (I have not gone there). Again, I have to stress that this is happening at spas where you pay hundreds of dollars, where you're rubbing elbows with celebrities in the sauna, real legit places. In my personal experience, it's a reality that a lot of legit therapists break the professional code, and I think that does contribute to certain expectations for a lot of men. That said, this has all taken place in West Hollywood, and I do think an argument could be made that skewed intimacy/sexuality issues run more rampant there than other places.

Unless Im getting a massage from the person I intend on getting any from then no I expect nothing.

This is a creepy thought when your mothers a massage therapist O.O

Chicago swimmer's story creeps me out for two reasons. 1. the unprofessional conduct of the masseur, and 2. his RJ profile says he's in a monogamous relationship.

Aaaw, that's not playing nice to put him on blast like that.

I agree with your sentiments Paradox. My listing is not quite accurate, but is listed most closely to what is correct in a rather complicated situation.

As for the masseur, I'm still trying to figure that out.

Remember, these drop down selections have limitations.

I can't imagine treating someone so gracious and helpful like a whore. Now if he does it all by himself and I'm single at the time I'm not gonna say I wouldn't just let things happen but requesting it?

Depends, in a relationship, with a friend, etc...and I'm the one giving the massage, I choose to have the client keep their underwear on and stay limp so I'm not so turned on and tempted.

It's repugnant, and just a bastardized form of prostitution (albeit cheaper).

If you want a hand job, pay someone that does that for a living.

If you want massage, pay someone that does that for a living.

It's an insult to expect sex to be integrated into massage.

paradox saidChicago swimmer's story creeps me out for two reasons. 1. the unprofessional conduct of the masseur, and 2. his RJ profile says he's in a monogamous relationship.

re. #2, we don't know the rules of his relationship and monogamous may just be the closest match that RJ provides. regardless, i don't feel creeped out by either point.

it seems we have a few different types of "massage people" we speak of. in no particular order;

1. LMTs that close their eyes and shout "happy endings never happen!"
2. LMTs that are aware that HEs happen but don't allow them
3. LMTs that do allow HEs
4. Perverts
5. Body Rub "therapists" which may or may not do HEs.
6. BR that definitely do HEs
7. Escorts
8. Friends/Boyfriends/etc

people have different opinions about this list and what is disgusting and disrespectful, etc. one person here was vehemently in denial that HEs happen. he calls it the happy ending myth. we can't put our heads in the sand and try to hold dear our perfect vision of a licensed service and pretend it never has and never will be sullied. frankly some people don't think that happy endings are sullying the service. everyone has different opinions and this is one where they vary greatly and are often diametrically opposed.

i believe, like abortion, such opinions will never converge. it is best that those who are involved in the massage therapy state their expectations, offers, and limits and we'll all go happily from this point forward.

To answer the original question... no, not from a massage therapist. When I hire a massage therapist, I expect a professional, therapeutic massage. Period. The exception to that is my partner, who is a massage therapist... but that's an entirely different situation.

Now, were I to hire an escort, I might expect something sexual to be part of the deal. I think that's why this happens to massage therapists... I remember when I was a kid the local brothel was called a "massage parlor", and even now, I see plenty of escorts advertising massages as a sort of cover for the sexual aspects of their business. I suppose some people don't understand the difference and equate "escort", "prostitute" and "massage therapist" as being the same thing... sort of like some people think strippers are all prostitutes or escorts, which isn't the case at all.

WOW Native Dude,

Finally someone with CLASS! Thank You for the response. I could not agree more.

Rick

LOL. I have to laugh at the people who go to a massage therapist and expect sexual favors without question. That's just silly and it's kinda sad.

Anyone who goes to a massage therapist expecting a sexual favor ("happing endings") should do a little research before blindly setting up an appointment and then being embarassed and having a law suit thrown at them. If a person wants that kind of "special attention" then they would be better off paying a prostitute who happens to know how to massage. I mean seriously where people get off assuming it's required?

On that note I would have to agree with a few other posts. In some culutres it's almost expected and practically encouraged to perform certain acts while getting massages but they are actually advertised so it's no surprise whereas in RK's case the clients automatically assumed they'd get a "happy ending" without consulting him. Big Mistake.

If that kind of service isn't mentioned in the package deal or discussed with the massuer then its safe to say that you aren't getting any "special treatment". I wish people would apply some common sense before doing certain things but I would be fooling myself to think that common sense is common (very misleading).

Such a touchy subject. (Sorry, couldn't help it.)

Here in the Palm Springs area, when you look at an ad for some kind of massage/bodywork services, it's pretty clear up front whether or not sex is part of the package.

There are, and I suspect this is true in many of the larger cities, some keywords to watch out for:

No Happy Ending: "Legitimate" or "Therapeutic"

Jerk/Suck: "Tension Release" "Full Relaxation"

Pretty much anything: "Performed in the nude" or specifications of dick size, etc.

I think that it would probably reduce the likelihood of that situation recurring, RK, if you put the "Legitimate" keyword in your ad.

Note that I said, "reduce", not "eliminate" - some people just don't want to take the hint. There is one masseur here, a former D.C., who really spells it out - "if you're looking for something else, I'm not your guy". It's worth mentioning that he charges a substantial rate, and keeps pretty busy - doing massage.

As for the rest - I have a hard time getting upset about people who advertise a sexual service, get hired for just that, and do it. But I also believe that people like you, RK, who are working hard to provide a non-sexual therapeutic service, should not be assumed to be or treated like a sex worker.

In the interests of full disclosure - I've had both, and have recommended both to others. And as a CPT, I've fielded more than one caller who assumed that a personal trainer was a sex worker as well....

I only expect it if the guy is hot.

If he's not hot, then I am insulted by the inference that I am just a piece of meat and the thought that my massage is being used as a tool for prostitution. I hate it when a non-hot massage therapist assumes that my penis needs massage as much as my sore back, especially when I can certainly take care of jacking off on my own whenever I want (well, not WHENEVER I want..like one time I tried it in the squat rack at the gym...my old gym...they made me leave after that).

so keep that in mind all you non-hot massage therapists! geez

(or if he's australian...I expect it if he's australian Laurence, you cheeky little monkey)

Ha
ha
ha
ha

Tommygun.

That's hilarious.

Hmmmmm. Just be a true professional.

You go to a Dentist for your Teeth!
You go to a Dr Because you are ill or whatever!
You go to a Masseuse for a Massage!

You go to a gay Sauna for a Wank and that's the bottom Line!

My partner and I have had massages in spas all across North America, but we have never had a feeling that sex (gay or otherwise) was happening in the rooms. The thought that it could happen does cross my mind - but I would not ever expect this to happen.

I think that a professional massage therapist shouldn't make the attempt (unless they work at the Tokyo Star Spa Open Until 3 am on Interstate 80/90 or something similar). It may be alright if they express their interest and give you their phone number.

Does it happen? It must sometimes - I mean, there are incidents of sex at a Dentists office, too.

rk - I had a different experience. I have never expected sexual services from my massage therapist and coming from a medical family it kind of creeps me out. Several years ago I was in a very stressful job and needed some major work. After several sessions my therapist (who I knew was gay) said "I know something that will really help you relax" - after the session he gave me a hand job. It did help me relax but I was so uncomfortable with the situation that I only saw him once more before I found another therapist.

Thanks for all the comments guys. I don't have the problem anymore since I do not advertise. All my clients are refered through medical doctors.

I POSTED THIS IN THE BEGINNIG BECAUSE I WAS CURIOUS TO SEE WHAT MOST GUYS THINK.

Years back when I did advertise (even non-sexual) guys would still call and ask or show up expecting it. The problem was even worse when I put a face photo of myself in the ad that was very professional looking.

Thanks to all for sharing your experiences too.

SW-you could have reported that therapist for doing that.

In Asia, there are many outlets where the therapists will try to entice you to go for "extra" services.

Go figure.

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Concider me weird or too sexually conservative, but I would be offended if someone offered me something other what I payed for at a spa or a massage therapist. Not, that I'd call rape, that's too dramatic, but I'd feel a little violated. Though I'd really freak out if a woman started getting fresh with me and offered me additional services. Sex just means more than just release, that's why there's masturbation. That, and I don't like feeling like I owe them something for 'nothing'. I bet I represent 0.05% of the gay community in this way.

I typically have work done once every 4-6 weeks and I've never, EVER expected anyone to do anything other than wail on the knots in my back.

As has been posted before, I think if someone's looking for "release" they should check the adult services classifieds of their local free weekly.

I would consider any other contact to be disrespectful on the part of both the LMT and the client....

I think that anyone who gets a massage expecting sexual favors needs to have their head examined and no, I don't mean that kind of head either.

That's a rather rude and premature assumption unless you specifically ask for that kind of treatment from the massager. If you want that kind of thing then the least a person could do is do a little reseach on the services provided at an establishment and see if it's even listed. You are better off assuming such services aren't practiced or given.

Guys who get a massage expecting to be serviced like are losers.

Recently, I received a massage and the therapist was pressing his crotch against my shoulder and head. I did not react to it. Was this a some sort of signal he wanted to have sex? I didn't know how to react, so I did nothing.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but when I go to a masseur it's to get a really good massage. If I wanted a handjob I'd go to an escort. It's about sticking to what you are good at. A really good massage will leave me far more relaxed than masturbation ever would.