There's nothing MORE natural than homosexuality

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 07, 2009 7:54 AM GMT
    Next time some hater regurgitates that old argument that homosexuality is un-natural, refer them to this:

    http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/the_gay_animal_kingdom

    It completely blows apart the whole bogus argument that "homosexuality is un-natural" that the religious right uses so often. Of course, it refutes it with science, truth and facts, and religious bigots have already made it clear that they have no use for those.

    This very same article, by the way, is the one that caused all the stir in Alton, IL, when a teacher assigned it as class reading to his class, which got him first suspended, and then reinstated after the students protested his suspension:

    http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2009/11/04/Students_Rally_Teacher_Reinstated/
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    Nov 07, 2009 12:01 PM GMT
    I remember a PBS "Nature" show that showed all these monkeys doing each other. They commented that the level of violence among this troop was remarkably low compared to others. They were all Bisexual and screwing around was thier primary activity, after gathering food.
  • jlly_rnchr

    Posts: 1759

    Nov 07, 2009 1:36 PM GMT
    Isn't it sad that we have to argue that it's ok for us to do it because giraffes do it?
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    Nov 07, 2009 2:20 PM GMT
    Those "monkeys" you are refering to are the peace-loving Bonobos ( physically they look very much like chimpanzees) but unlike the "society" of the chimpanzees ( where a lot of bullying and violence occur).

    Sex, food , leisure.. and peace rules in Bonobos ( heard of penile fencing and vulva kisssing?).

    So apparently we are 'closer' to the chimps than Bonobos.
  • Celticmusl

    Posts: 4330

    Nov 07, 2009 2:54 PM GMT
    vulva kissing......I think I'm gonna be sick
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    Nov 07, 2009 3:11 PM GMT
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    Nov 07, 2009 3:32 PM GMT
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals
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    Nov 07, 2009 3:37 PM GMT
    Celticmusl saidvulva kissing......I think I'm gonna be sick



    Who wants to kiss a Swedish car.....


    What? Oh. Oh, sorry. Never mind.
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    Nov 07, 2009 3:51 PM GMT
    Of course it's natural.

    However, as soon as you counter with these facts, they'll say that humans aren't like animals. They'll claim that we must live in the spirit and reject carnal ways.

    They can't accept that we can be just as filled with the spirit as they are and those "carnal" thoughts are just as real as their own attraction to the opposite sex.

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    Nov 07, 2009 4:00 PM GMT
    "When scientific theory says something’s wrong with so many people, perhaps the theory is wrong, not the people.”


    agreed
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    Nov 07, 2009 4:05 PM GMT
    False belief systems (pick your poison of religion / superstition / cults ... it's all the same stuff) make up stuff as they go along.

    Homosexual behavior is everywhere in nature. Having grown up on a ranch in Nebraska, I've known that since I was very young, and I absolutely am against false belief systems.

    False belief systems often guilt their brainwashed subscribers into all sorts of crazy beliefs like "God is real", "God is vindictive" "Queers are just wrong", "If you jerk off you'll go blind", "Using a condom is denying life", etc. Those false belief systems, while falling aside in some cultures, are still the biggest plague to modern civilization in all the horrible damage that they do to civilization.

    The brainwashing of the false belief systems begins in early childhood (Sunday school) and continues, in some cases for a life time, where folks throw out all common sense, and any logic. In particular, these systems prey upon the weak-minded, and the illiterate, within our cultures. It's a very sad statement about Man that folks are still being brainwashed and persecuted in 2009.

    The best defense is to try to steer folks towards truth-based belief systems, but, because folks are brain washed early in life, it's a tough road to get folks thinking clearly...but, you have to try, or the terrible outcomes of those false belief systems will continue.
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    Nov 07, 2009 4:08 PM GMT
    theantijock said
    Or they do accept them to be just as real but then they still catagorize it as a sin not to be acted upon.


    And the story of sin rests on a FABLE of a talking serpent:

    fable - A usually short narrative making an edifying or cautionary point and often employing as characters animals that speak and act like humans. (The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.)

    Maybe it's just me, but you have to have something better than a FABLE of a talking animal to convince me homosexuality is wrong or unnatural. I likewise do not believe lions can talk simply because one is claimed to have done so in The Wizard of Oz.

  • calibro

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    Nov 07, 2009 4:47 PM GMT
    Just because it happens in nature doesn't make it OK. Murder, incest, rape, and a lot of awful things occur in nature, but that doesn't mean we condone them. This is called the Natural Fallacy, whereby you proclaim something must be inherently OK because of its natural existence. The idea doesn't dismiss homosexuality as being bad, just that saying it happens in nature isn't enough to make it logically OK. Rather, there's a lot of scientific and psychological evidence to support the claim of homosexuality being OK, and we don't need to revert to fallacies to justify our life.
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    Nov 07, 2009 5:09 PM GMT
    calibro saidJust because it happens in nature doesn't make it OK. Murder, incest, rape, and a lot of awful things occur in nature, but that doesn't mean we condone them. This is called the Natural Fallacy, whereby you proclaim something must be inherently OK because of it's natural existence. The idea doesn't dismiss homosexuality as being bad, just that saying it happens in nature isn't enough to make it logically OK. Rather, there's a lot of scientific and psychological evidence to support the claim of homosexuality being OK, and we don't need to revert to fallacies to justify our life.


    Agreed. But I have been hearing that old (bad) argument all year long, from opponents of marriage equality and repealing DADT, that homosexuality is un-natural and that their opposition to gay rights is not based on their particular religious beliefs, but on nature itself. The value of this article and all the research it documents is that it blows that whole "homosexuality is un-natural" canard out of the water.
  • Celticmusl

    Posts: 4330

    Nov 07, 2009 5:17 PM GMT
    The sad part is that this information about the animal kingdom and homosexual behavior is not new. We studied this in the 8th grade....don't ask me how many decades ago!! Now granted, they now have far more evidence in the animal kingdom, but some of these behaviors have been recorded 40-50 yrs ago.
  • Little_Spoon

    Posts: 1562

    Nov 07, 2009 5:27 PM GMT
    I wonder how the weather in Canada is...
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 07, 2009 5:46 PM GMT
    Celticmusl saidThe sad part is that this information about the animal kingdom and homosexual behavior is not new. We studied this in the 8th grade....don't ask me how many decades ago!! Now granted, they now have far more evidence in the animal kingdom, but some of these behaviors have been recorded 40-50 yrs ago.


    I was reading a book on this not too long ago, and the information is surprisingly new. Old observations reflected the attitudes of the time. Two male monkeys didn't have sex because it was hot. Rather, it was a rape power game. It fit in with their attitude of gay sex=perversion.

    Over the last two decades, as attitudes have improved considerably, the number of observed animal species who have gay sex and even have same-sex families has exploded: from a few primates to everything from apes to birds to insects. What used to be just sex, we now have species that raise families together, discovered dozens of species where homosexuals are at the top of their society, and even found that the more certain species engages in homosexual sex, the more children they have. At this rate we will find gay electrons whirling around lesbian protons.

    I just started a book that goes into more detail about transgendered animals... That's right, I said transgendered. It is fascinating so far.
  • Celticmusl

    Posts: 4330

    Nov 07, 2009 6:07 PM GMT
    MunchingZombie said
    Celticmusl saidThe sad part is that this information about the animal kingdom and homosexual behavior is not new. We studied this in the 8th grade....don't ask me how many decades ago!! Now granted, they now have far more evidence in the animal kingdom, but some of these behaviors have been recorded 40-50 yrs ago.


    I was reading a book on this not too long ago, and the information is surprisingly new. Old observations reflected the attitudes of the time. Two male monkeys didn't have sex because it was hot. Rather, it was a rape power game. It fit in with their attitude of gay sex=perversion.

    Over the last two decades, as attitudes have improved considerably, the number of observed animal species who have gay sex and even have same-sex families has exploded: from a few primates to everything from apes to birds to insects. What used to be just sex, we now have species that raise families together, discovered dozens of species where homosexuals are at the top of their society, and even found that the more certain species engages in homosexual sex, the more children they have. At this rate we will find gay electrons whirling around lesbian protons.

    I just started a book that goes into more detail about transgendered animals... That's right, I said transgendered. It is fascinating so far.


    As you said, there were "old observations" of what I said "homosexual behavior". That's exactly what I stated. Just like all science, Comparative Psychology has progressed considerably over the last couple of decades.

    Once again, it is sad that this type of scientific evidence has been ignored by the general public and conservative christians FOR DECADES because the case to label homosexual activity as being unnatural or abnormal would be curtailed.
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    Nov 07, 2009 6:08 PM GMT

    Those other animals can't choose to go against their nature, but you can....just playing Devil'd Advocate. But, why the fuck would I choose to go against my nature, that's what would be unnatural.
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    Nov 07, 2009 6:44 PM GMT
    GuiltyGear said
    why the fuck would I choose to go against my nature, that's what would be unnatural.


    Just as it would be unnatural (as well as impossible) for me to CHOOSE to be right-handed, or hetero.
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    Nov 07, 2009 7:06 PM GMT
    Maybe this is a surprise to people who have never been outside of a big city... It hardly bears remarking about to country people who see it every day.

    (Related? A couple of months ago some clueless guy who had apparently never been outside of the psychology building announced some breakthrough never-before-seen behavior, called press conferences, lots of headlines. It was like, WTF? I see that every day.)

    Anyway, for a lot of animals, one or a few dominant males get all the females and the rest of the males are left with... each other. Some of it's also seasonal. For some examples, deer, peacocks and turkeys (just some creatures in my yard) run in-mixed sex herds during mating season but solitary or in small same-sex groups the rest of the time.

    The peacocks (besides being extraordinarily annoying) are kind of funny. During mating season, each male establishes a little "stage" area and does a continuous mating display - kind of like a stripper on stage. Anything that steps into his stage area gets nailed. The most dominant birds get spots close to the barn and the youngest get stuck half a mile away at the other end of the orchard. Those younger ones are mostly doing each other.
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    Nov 07, 2009 7:10 PM GMT
    StudlyScrewRite said
    Celticmusl saidvulva kissing......I think I'm gonna be sick



    Who wants to kiss a Swedish car.....


    What? Oh. Oh, sorry. Never mind.



    *chuckles*

    --------

    i have also seen that PBS program on homosexuality in animals.
    They also talked about some famous scientist in the 19th century who had observed
    homo trends in certain animals , but following strict scientific protocol he simply dismissed it because he didn't agree with it.
    At least he noted it in some notebooks which is how we know about it.
    Forgot his name now but no matter.
  • jarhead5536

    Posts: 1348

    Nov 07, 2009 7:15 PM GMT
    calibro saidJust because it happens in nature doesn't make it OK. Murder, incest, rape, and a lot of awful things occur in nature, but that doesn't mean we condone them. This is called the Natural Fallacy, whereby you proclaim something must be inherently OK because of it's natural existence. The idea doesn't dismiss homosexuality as being bad, just that saying it happens in nature isn't enough to make it logically OK. Rather, there's a lot of scientific and psychological evidence to support the claim of homosexuality being OK, and we don't need to revert to fallacies to justify our life.


    Um, animals do not murder. The term implies malicious intent, and animals only kill to defend themselves or their young, or in competition for resources. Humans are "evolved" enough to kill for reasons unrelated to survival...
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    Nov 07, 2009 7:29 PM GMT
    jarhead5536 said
    calibro saidJust because it happens in nature doesn't make it OK. Murder, incest, rape, and a lot of awful things occur in nature, but that doesn't mean we condone them. This is called the Natural Fallacy, whereby you proclaim something must be inherently OK because of it's natural existence. The idea doesn't dismiss homosexuality as being bad, just that saying it happens in nature isn't enough to make it logically OK. Rather, there's a lot of scientific and psychological evidence to support the claim of homosexuality being OK, and we don't need to revert to fallacies to justify our life.


    Um, animals do not murder. The term implies malicious intent, and animals only kill to defend themselves or their young, or in competition for resources. Humans are "evolved" enough to kill for reasons unrelated to survival...


    Both incorrect: The observations of animal homosexuality don't make it "OK," it simply counters the argument that homosexuality is somehow "unnatural."

    Non-human animals do kill for no apparent reason but for fun, although it's most common to see that behavior in domesticated dogs and cats, who are well-fed enough that they don't need the protein. Call it "joy of the hunt" or "instinct," it's not a walt disney world, and animals don't care about political correctness. Kind of off the point though.
  • calibro

    Posts: 8888

    Nov 07, 2009 9:43 PM GMT
    mindgarden said
    jarhead5536 said
    calibro said

    Both incorrect: The observations of animal homosexuality don't make it "OK," it simply counters the argument that homosexuality is somehow "unnatural."

    Non-human animals do kill for no apparent reason but for fun, although it's most common to see that behavior in domesticated dogs and cats, who are well-fed enough that they don't need the protein. Call it "joy of the hunt" or "instinct," it's not a walt disney world, and animals don't care about political correctness. Kind of off the point though.


    Actually, not really. What you are saying is "Yes your point is correct it doesn't sufficiently address another question that is inherently illogical because it is based on fallacy." Of course it doesn't counter the argument, because it says the argument is ridiculous and meritless.

    And to the point of animals murdering (jarhead), actually, they do. It's not the same rationale and complexity people espouse, which is because animals simply aren't cognizant enough, but it does occur. Many primates kill their young or others in their clan that they feel threatened by or believe should not be there.