Intolerance Among RealJock Memberrs

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 08, 2009 7:39 PM GMT
    I've read many forum posts on this website and really feel the need to ask the following question: Why is there so much intolerance towards opposing points of view among RealJock members and, I've noticed, amongst many in the gay community in general?

    Let me explain. Each time any topic relating to politics is posted, and a respondent expresses a view that in anyway goes against the partisan Liberal Democratic dogma, he is immediately the subject of ridicule, endless diatribes about how "radical conservatives" are to blame for everything (automatically assuming he is a conservative) and relentess questioning of his "intelligence".

    SO, in my standard feisty political Independence, I would like for RealJock members (you partisans know who you are) to explain how this represents the tolerance and inclusion you criticize others for not having? Many of you, and many gay men in general, criticize conservatives for: 1) being intolerant of those that are different than them 2)being incapable of acknowledging an alternative point of view as being valid in any way and for 3)seeking to impose their personal belief system on the rest of us as being the "correct" way of being...(these are very valid critiques indeed of many on the right) BUT, aren't all of you guys who criticize any member who critique, say, health care reform, the president or his policies, demonstrating the exact same intolerance by attacking the individual for being different and refusing to see any validity in their position? Or is the argument then, that since "they do it, I'll do it too"? But then, how does that make you any better than the ignorant right wing radical you criticize?

    Thanks guys for reading and it felt GREAT to express my thoughts here. I now open the floor to debate.
  • silverfox

    Posts: 3178

    Nov 08, 2009 7:45 PM GMT
    Well I think it goes both ways. I have seen "attacks" on here from both sides of the aisle.

    I like to hear all kinds of views and really just leave a thread when there are personal attacks so on and so forth.

    What I find intriguing are guys who proclaim they are "independent" political thinkers.... and then label others.

    One could argue that these independents are really conservatives (and nothing wrong with that!).

    Kind of like Fox news proclaiming themselves "Fair and Balanced".

    icon_idea.gif
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    Nov 08, 2009 7:46 PM GMT
    welcome to politics, enjoy your stay.
  • drypin

    Posts: 1798

    Nov 08, 2009 7:48 PM GMT
    (cuddles up next to TheGuyNextDoor to enjoy the show... hand reaches for popcorn... misses bucket and wanders...)

    Ok, DCjoe... my simple answer... we serve as each others lightning rods. We have these political discussions live until we're a teensy bit sick of hearing it... and then some "bozo" comes along and repeats what to us is the same old lame argument on behalf of the other side. We don't even bother reading the whole thing because at this point they're just pressing our buttons.
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    Nov 08, 2009 7:50 PM GMT
    My take is that the whole republican-evangelical nexus is strongly disliked by most people because of the suffering that it has caused to most gay men. This can be directly though eg being fired from your job for being gay, or for having to hide your sexuality for years because Jesus doesn´t approve or indirectly by creating a culture which does things like making gay marriage illegal in California or Maine for religious reasons.

    As a result people reject much or all of the agenda of the "right" and are attracted to the other party.

    There are exceptions: some guys have internalized the homophobia and the values of the religious right and are "gay Uncle Toms". Others are genuinely convinced that as a fiscal polity some kind of libertarian view is best. The republicans come closest to this in their rhetoric (though in actual fact the Bush government was HUGE government...)

    There are probably other reasons. Just as the for many evangelicals the pro life movement is an absolute reason never to vote dem, for many gays, the anti gay agenda of the republicans is a reason never to suppor them.

    As to the vehemence, some posters are just provocative and dense in how they present their views (calling Obama a socialist.. zzzzzzzzzz etc)
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    Nov 08, 2009 7:51 PM GMT
    silverfox1 saidWell I think it goes both ways. I have seen "attacks" on here from both sides of the aisle.

    I like to hear all kinds of views and really just leave a thread when there are personal attacks so on and so forth.

    What I find intriguing are guys who proclaim they are "independent" political thinkers.... and then label others.

    One could argue that these independents are really conservatives (and nothing wrong with that!).

    Kind of like Fox news proclaiming themselves "Fair and Balanced".

    icon_idea.gif



    Ahh...so everyone has to be either a liberal or a conservative? Talk about labeling huh? A person can't be, say, pro military AND pro gay marriage? Or pro separation of church and state AND pro gun rights? Fascinating..
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    Nov 08, 2009 7:56 PM GMT
    DCjoe007 said
    Ahh...so everyone has to be either a liberal or a conservative? Talk about labeling huh? A person can't be, say, pro military AND pro gay marriage? Or pro separation of church and state AND pro gun rights? Fascinating..


    OK I answered you fairly, but that does sound a bit like you are stirring...


    trolls are this exciting to me

    boring.jpg

    funny-pictures-cat-sleeps-boring-meeting
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    Nov 08, 2009 7:57 PM GMT
    Lostboy saidMy take is that the whole republican-evangelical nexus is strongly disliked by most people because of the suffering that it has caused to most gay men. This can be directly though eg being fired from your job for being gay, or for having to hide your sexuality for years because Jesus doesn´t approve or indirectly by creating a culture which does things like making gay marriage illegal in California or Maine for religious reasons.

    As a result people reject much or all of the agenda of the "right" and are attracted to the other party.

    There are exceptions: some guys have internalized the homophobia and the values of the religious right and are "gay Uncle Toms". Others are genuinely convinced that as a fiscal polity some kind of libertarian view is best. The republicans come closest to this in their rhetoric (though in actual fact the Bush government was HUGE government...)

    There are probably other reasons. Just as the for many evangelicals the pro life movement is an absolute reason never to vote dem, for many gays, the anti gay agenda of the republicans is a reason never to suppor them.

    As to the vehemence, some posters are just provocative and dense in how they present their views (calling Obama a socialist.. zzzzzzzzzz etc)



    Points well stated about issues people have with the religious right. The trend I see is the supposition that anyone who raises a question about anything done by the left "must be" a subscriber to the "right". So my questions about tolerance towards opposing points of views still stand
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    Nov 08, 2009 8:01 PM GMT
    Some people have hair triggers, and there are a few people who are so rabidly anti ANYTHING that is tied to the "republican platform" that it verges on the boring. I suspect the intolerance is, in at least some cases, tied to my point above: republican=evangelical=hates me therefore I hate evangelical=republican. Also there are few intelligent presentations of more conservative positions (or they are not so noticeable).

    1257391880manass.gif

    Oh and there are plenty of people who are not convinced by obama... He´s too conservative.
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    Nov 08, 2009 8:25 PM GMT
    DCjoe007 said...Why is there so much intolerance towards opposing points of view among RealJock members and, I've noticed, amongst many in the gay community in general?

    With apologies, you misleadingly phrase the question. Gays here do not have intolerance against just any opposing points of view. We are in fact very accepting & open to many points of view, as I have observed myself. If you paint us with a Liberal brush, then admit that must make us more tolerant of a variety of views than Conservatives, whose defining philosophy is resistance to change & difference.

    Rather, we have intolerance against intolerance, that is directed against us. And why should we not?

    Republicans wish to deny me my civil rights, solely because I am gay, and I should "tolerate" that? I should understand & accept discrimination & bigotry? I don't think so.

    Whenever I see that political philosophy expressed here I will oppose it. On the other hand, my overall political views are rather pragmatic, in the time-honored American tradition of "what works." In some regards I am quite Conservative, especially regarding my beloved US Military, and have gotten into some verbal scraps here over it.

    I wonder who represents stereotypes more: you or I? I am devoted to my country, and as an American must be likewise devoted to its founding principles of civil rights, that includes gay rights.

    Do you, or do you not, support gay rights, and oppose those who oppose gay rights? This should make this issue rather easy to understand.
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    Nov 08, 2009 8:32 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said...The mantra here, curiously enough, is "If you are not with us, you are against us and we are against you."

    Well, golll-eee, Sergeant Carter, who made that phrase famous? Funny you would fall back on that one, the "mantra" of your own icon GWB. How's it feel when the shoe's on the other foot? icon_razz.gif
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    Nov 08, 2009 8:37 PM GMT
    Red_Vespa said
    DCjoe007 said...Why is there so much intolerance towards opposing points of view among RealJock members and, I've noticed, amongst many in the gay community in general?

    With apologies, you misleadingly phrase the question. Gays here do not have intolerance against just any opposing points of view. We are in fact very accepting & open to many points of view, as I have observed myself. If you paint us with a Liberal brush, then admit that must make us more tolerant of a variety of views than Conservatives, whose defining philosophy is resistance to change & difference.

    Rather, we have intolerance against intolerance, that is directed against us. And why should we not?

    Republicans wish to deny me my civil rights, solely because I am gay, and I should "tolerate" that? I should understand & accept discrimination & bigotry? I don't think so.

    Whenever I see that political philosophy expressed here I will oppose it. On the other hand, my overall political views are rather pragmatic, in the time-honored American tradition of "what works." In some regards I am quite Conservative, especially regarding my beloved US Military, and have gotten into some verbal scraps here over it.

    I wonder who represents stereotypes more: you or I? I am devoted to my country, and as an American must be likewise devoted to the founding principles of civil rights, that includes gay rights.

    Do you, or do you not, support gay rights, and oppose those who oppose gay rights? This should make this issue rather easy to understand.


    I actually phrased my question quite appropriately, perhaps you read it incorrectly. I clearly mention that there are many attacks and diatribes launched against anyone who disagrees with democratic politics. I did not at any point state that EVERY RealJock member engages in intolerance and/or ignorance...However, I will say that for you to write that "gays on here" welcome all points of view says to me that you are living in quite the fantasy world my friend! Some gay guys on here do, but I would by no means say that tolerating an opposing view is the mainstream on this site. You're mentioning of how you must oppose "that political philosophy" demonstrates this point, because like I said I, which you discount, I am NOT a partisan Republican.

    This again reinforces my point- You are equating someone having an opinion other than your own as meaning that it "must be" the republican conservative agenda which you shall stand against. Bringing up gay rights is a diversion because that was not mentioned at all in my post. Unless of course you're implying that if you support gay marriage (which supposedly only Democrats are going to grant you) then you cannot possibly have anything in common with the opposing side.
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    Nov 08, 2009 8:49 PM GMT
    Because disagreeing political views is unique to the gay community?

    Hello Generalization, meet Over.
  • jlly_rnchr

    Posts: 1759

    Nov 08, 2009 8:59 PM GMT
    Hey, I'm tolerant. I'm pretty sure I would have suppported Dierdre Scozzafava (R) in New York, you know, if I lived there. And if she hadn't dropped out.

    But you're right, I am usually intolerant of Republicans, conservatives, tea-baggers, red-necks, religious zealots, etc. They tend to be against me, I don't relate to them, we have fundamentally opposing views of our country. They're rude, they never admit when they're wrong, and they're kinda crazy sometimes.

    I will always be intolerant of douche-bags like this...
  • jlly_rnchr

    Posts: 1759

    Nov 08, 2009 9:04 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    jlly_rnchr saidHey, I'm tolerant. I'm pretty sure I would have suppported Dierdre Scozzafava (R) in New York, you know, if I lived there. And if she hadn't dropped out.

    But you're right, I am usually intolerant of Republicans, conservatives, tea-baggers, red-necks, religious zealots, etc. They tend to be against me, I don't relate to them, we have fundamentally opposing views of our country. They're rude, they never admit when they're wrong, and they're kinda crazy sometimes.


    Isn't it dangerous to make such generalizations about entire groups?


    Nope! I'm ok with it.



    Do you want me to post a video of every crazy conservative that I'm talking about?
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    Nov 08, 2009 9:07 PM GMT
    jlly_rnchr saidHey, I'm tolerant. I'm pretty sure I would have suppported Dierdre Scozzafava (R) in New York, you know, if I lived there. And if she hadn't dropped out.

    But you're right, I am usually intolerant of Republicans, conservatives, tea-baggers, red-necks, religious zealots, etc. They tend to be against me, I don't relate to them, we have fundamentally opposing views of our country. They're rude, they never admit when they're wrong, and they're kinda crazy sometimes.

    I will always be intolerant of douche-bags like this...


    Then doesn't that make you no better than the douche-bags you criticize? I mean, my post didn't even mention being tolerant of ardently Republican views, but instead of any view that isn't your own- so you jump right to the assumption that that view "must be" Republican.... But speaking of, I'm guessing you harbor some generalized views about all Republicans, conservatives and Tea party protesters- stereotypes I'm guessing- and discount them all together- You probably think that's okay right, but yet still expect that those same people should "tolerate" us? Are you for real? Again my question is then, how does that make you any different or better than them?
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    Nov 08, 2009 9:09 PM GMT
    DCjoe007 said...You're mentioning of how you must oppose "that political philosophy" demonstrates this point, because like I said I, which you discount, I am NOT a partisan Republican.

    ...Bringing up gay rights is a diversion because that was not mentioned at all in my post. Unless of course you're implying that if you support gay marriage (which supposedly only Democrats are going to grant you) then you cannot possibly have anything in common with the opposing side.

    I said no such thing about you. Rather, you expressed views which are largely shared by Republicans. "If it sounds like a duck..."

    Gay rights are far from a "diversion" in this discussion. Your suggestion they are, is more damning of you than you may realize.

    If you pose the question: "Why are gays intolerant of Republicans and their views?" and then you say we cannot discuss Republican oppression of gay rights as a motivation, you are playing by the Republican Party game book of 1-sided debate.

    Nevertheless, you do win today's T-shirt prize! YAY!!!

    1007470-p-DETAILED-1-2.jpg
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    Nov 08, 2009 9:14 PM GMT
    Welcome to Washington, DCJoe. You'll find that it's always polarizing... and to stay completely neutral takes a lot of effort or a lot of indifference. haha.

    How are you finding DC so far? Must be a big change from Miami. (Hit me up, I am thinking about making a move to Miami in a couple of years when I'm done with grad school.)

    Best,

    Z
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19119

    Nov 08, 2009 9:14 PM GMT
    TheGuyNextDoor saidOh,,, this is going to be a good one.. I can tell,
    Let me get my popcorn ready.. OK, have at it boys!
    cat



    I think the OP has a valid point, though I believe it has been covered here over and over. Bottomline, there are all kinds of different opinions here at RJ, just like in the gay community, and they cover a broad section of the political spectrum from very liberal to very conservative. Those that scream the loudest and want to put down others with opposing viewpoints doesn't make this fact any less true. There are liberal leaning Republicans among us, just as there are conservative leaning Democrats among us. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but I don't think anyone here is against gay rights. Gay rights has just become a scapegoat that so many of you try to use when trying to ram your own opinions down others throats
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    Nov 08, 2009 9:16 PM GMT
    Sometimes the outlandish comments you read come frm a more sinister place. Some members have personal history and when rhetoric presents itself all parties involved chime in. Your post also reminds me of a article I read months ago about one of the founders of manhunt donating the maximum cap to the McCain campaign. Imagine if he was a member of this site and the hoops he would jump thru. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion but realize that posting it in a forum leaves you open to some who might not have the tact to compose or express themselves in any other manner except hostile, which is most likely a reflection of there temperament and life.
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    Nov 08, 2009 9:21 PM GMT
    [quote][cite]Red_Vespa said[/cite]
    DCjoe007 said...You're mentioning of how you must oppose "that political philosophy" demonstrates this point, because like I said I, which you discount, I am NOT a partisan Republican.

    ...Bringing up gay rights is a diversion because that was not mentioned at all in my post. Unless of course you're implying that if you support gay marriage (which supposedly only Democrats are going to grant you) then you cannot possibly have anything in common with the opposing side.

    I said no such thing about you. Rather, you expressed views which are largely shared by Republicans. "If it sounds like a duck..."

    Gay rights are far from a "diversion" in this discussion. Your suggestion they are, is more damning of you than you may realize.

    If you pose the question: "Why are gays intolerant of Republicans and their views?" and then you say we cannot discuss Republican oppression of gay rights as a motivation, you are playing by the Republican Party game book of 1-sided debate.

    Nevertheless, you do win today's T-shirt prize! YAY!!!

    1007470-p-DETAILED-1-2.jpg
    [/quote

    Again, let's stay on point here. With regard to gay marriage, you ended your first with asking me "Do you or do you not support gay rights?", and again I will say that that did not have anything to do with my initial question about ideologues on the left being incapable of tolerating an opinion that goes against their dogma. You may be shocked to know that gay men have interest in issues other than gay marriage alone, such as the ones I mentioned- health care, and the like...Then to go on and say that I "expressed views" shared by Republicans demonstrates that you may be one of those individuals I was referring to- incapable of validating anything that contradicts your point of view, labeling it as Republican right wing idiocy, then expecting that these same people should tolerate you.....that line of thinking my friend, is absolutely fascinating and baffling in the extreme
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    Nov 08, 2009 9:24 PM GMT
    DCjoe007 said
    silverfox1 saidWell I think it goes both ways. I have seen "attacks" on here from both sides of the aisle.

    I like to hear all kinds of views and really just leave a thread when there are personal attacks so on and so forth.

    What I find intriguing are guys who proclaim they are "independent" political thinkers.... and then label others.

    One could argue that these independents are really conservatives (and nothing wrong with that!).

    Kind of like Fox news proclaiming themselves "Fair and Balanced".

    icon_idea.gif



    Ahh...so everyone has to be either a liberal or a conservative? Talk about labeling huh? A person can't be, say, pro military AND pro gay marriage? Or pro separation of church and state AND pro gun rights? Fascinating..


    You have missed the point - and this is another reason why people start labeling.

    'You certainly can be those things you itemized, but when you start spouting a party line - then you are no longer independent.

    You have said that you are an independent, if you are you then cannot support one or the other party. You are to remain exactly that- indepndent.

    If you don't you are just a troll
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    Nov 08, 2009 9:25 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said

    Isn't it dangerous to make such generalizations about entire groups?


    You mean generalizations like this?

    southbeach1500 saidThe reality is that the members here are representative of the "gay community" which is almost exclusively rabid liberal, Democrat bordering on socialist

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    Nov 08, 2009 9:30 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 saidBy the way, I am not DCJoe. icon_razz.gif


    I wouldn't be surprised if you were
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    Nov 08, 2009 9:32 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    jlly_rnchr said
    southbeach1500 said

    Isn't it dangerous to make such generalizations about entire groups?


    Nope! I'm ok with it.


    Seems kind of hypocritical to me though.

    Do you appreciate being viewed as a gay stereotype? Or would you rather people don't apply labels and make assumptions about you just because you happen to fall into a certain "group" of people?


    I am honestly finding it rather difficult not to stereotype you