Israeli rabbi backs killing non-Jews

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    Nov 13, 2009 4:45 AM GMT
    Israeli rabbi backs killing non-Jews
    Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:19:15 GMT
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    Israel's three-week offensive on the Gaza Strip last year killed at least 1,350 people, many of whom children, and injured thousands more.
    An Israeli rabbi has supported the murder of non-Jewish babies who pose a threat to Israel in his recently released book The King's Torah.

    Rabbi Yitzhak Shapiro, who heads the Od Yosef Chai Yeshiva religious school in the occupied West Bank, says Jews are allowed to murder even non-Jewish babies and children if they pose a threat to Israel, Haaretz reported.

    Shapiro said Jews are allowed to kill 'those who, by speech, weaken our sovereignty'.

    "It is permissible to kill the Righteous among Nations even if they are not responsible for the threatening situation," he wrote.

    Several prominent rabbis, including Rabbi Yithak Ginzburg and Rabbi Yaakov Yosef, have also recommended the book to their students and followers.

    During the Israeli three-week offensive on the Gaza Strip last year, some leading rabbis issued a ruling which gave permission to kill civilians in the coastal enclave.

    “It is permitted, according to Jewish Law, to fire shells and bombs at the firing sites, even if they are populated by civilians," read a ruling issued by Rabbi Yaakov Yosef, Rabbi Dov Lior, Rabbi Shalom Dov Wolpe and Rabbi Meir Mazuz.

    The ruling gave a free hand to Israeli commanders to attack civilian population during the war in the Gaza Strip in which at least 1350 people, including women and children, were killed.

    http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=110923&sectionid=351020202

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    Nov 13, 2009 5:22 AM GMT
    Yet another exibit of religion and how it makes our world so much more 'civil' the 'Gods' behind these people must be really really angry !!! And of course 'God is on our/their side' so with friends like these 'Gods' who needs enemies.
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    Nov 13, 2009 7:21 AM GMT
    Just an example of silly hateful men who try to use god to justify the evil in their hearts. They don't know anything about the love of god. I think it hurts god to see people do this stuff to each other, because we weren't meant to.
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    Nov 13, 2009 1:55 PM GMT
    Considering that babies and children are the most vulnerable I fail to see the preceived threat, which would justify the murder of innocent children from each of these people of involved with this conflict.icon_eek.gif
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    Nov 13, 2009 2:01 PM GMT
    Rabbi Shapiro's statements are not a credit to Israel or Judaism. At the same time, I would contrast his statements against Allied actions during WWII, when we bombed German population centers. And later, the fire-bombing of Tokyo, and the dropping of atomic bombs on 2 Japanese cities.

    Were not children and other civilians killed in these attacks? True, Germans had bombed London, and the Japanese had committed their own atrocities. But do we not say 2 wrongs do not make a right? Or is it that all's fair in love & war?

    These issues are not black & white. Nevertheless, it does not help the Israeli cause for a rabbi to be sounding like a fanatical Muslim fundamentalist.
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    Nov 13, 2009 2:09 PM GMT
    IHG84 saidJust an example of silly hateful men who try to use god to justify the evil in their hearts. They don't know anything about the love of god. I think it hurts god to see people do this stuff to each other, because we weren't meant to.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I Guess what I was saying through sarcasm is that these supposed representatives of God on our planet give him one hell of a bad name. We certainly were'nt meant to treat each other so inhumanely.
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    Nov 13, 2009 2:13 PM GMT
    THE EVIL THAT MEN DO!
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    Nov 13, 2009 3:17 PM GMT
    KenetiketCT saidIsraeli rabbi backs killing non-Jews
    Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:19:15 GMT
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    Israel's three-week offensive on the Gaza Strip last year killed at least 1,350 people, many of whom children, and injured thousands more.
    An Israeli rabbi has supported the murder of non-Jewish babies who pose a threat to Israel in his recently released book The King's Torah.

    Rabbi Yitzhak Shapiro, who heads the Od Yosef Chai Yeshiva religious school in the occupied West Bank, says Jews are allowed to murder even non-Jewish babies and children if they pose a threat to Israel, Haaretz reported.

    Shapiro said Jews are allowed to kill 'those who, by speech, weaken our sovereignty'.

    "It is permissible to kill the Righteous among Nations even if they are not responsible for the threatening situation," he wrote.

    Several prominent rabbis, including Rabbi Yithak Ginzburg and Rabbi Yaakov Yosef, have also recommended the book to their students and followers.

    During the Israeli three-week offensive on the Gaza Strip last year, some leading rabbis issued a ruling which gave permission to kill civilians in the coastal enclave.

    “It is permitted, according to Jewish Law, to fire shells and bombs at the firing sites, even if they are populated by civilians," read a ruling issued by Rabbi Yaakov Yosef, Rabbi Dov Lior, Rabbi Shalom Dov Wolpe and Rabbi Meir Mazuz.

    The ruling gave a free hand to Israeli commanders to attack civilian population during the war in the Gaza Strip in which at least 1350 people, including women and children, were killed.

    http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=110923§ionid=351020202



    Who said many of those killed were children?
    Last time I read most killed were adults. Where is your data concerning who were killed?
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    Nov 13, 2009 3:49 PM GMT
    Note that the "source" for this article is PressTV.IR
    i.e. the official Iranian government "news" site.
    You can also find Holocaust denial articles there.
    And you can also find this article on racist sites like Stormfront.


    NNJfitandbi> Is what's important to the OP the fact that the man is insane or that he's a Jew? Do we hold Christians responsible for the KKK and Operation Rescue? Thank you for exposing anti-semitism!

    Bingo.


    Article> “It is permitted, according to Jewish Law, to fire shells and bombs at the firing sites, even if they are populated by civilians,"

    International law (the Geneva Conventions) say the same thing in much broader terms: the presence of innocent civilians do not render a military target immune from attack.

    But the value of the target must be commensurate to the civilian lives lost. So the presence of a soldier on leave riding home on a bus or flying a plane doesn't make that bus a legitimate military target for terrorists (in addition, off-duty soldiers are non-combatants). But if someone is firing rockets at your city from their school yard... that rocket launcher is a legitimate target and you can shoot back - but you need to do so in a way that minimizes casualties amongst "protected people" (innocent civilians).

    Consider further that had Flight 93 been shot down on 9/11, no one would be screaming and screeching how the US is "murdering" its own civilians.

    The violation of international law here is by the terrorists who "cowardly blend" and hide amongst their own population, firing from behind them, using their own women and children as human shields (or worse, using our civilians jets as rockets).


    Article> The ruling gave a free hand to Israeli commanders to attack civilian population

    Ridiculous, not only because Israeli commanders didn't have a "free hand" to attack civilians, but because these Rabbis don't run or influence the military (seems like Iran is projecting, eh?)


    theantijock> there is little difference between this guy and that creep who just shot up his own men at Fort Hood.

    Moving beyond the spam propaganda misleading info in the OP and topic title, even if there was such a Rabbi who preached such a message the difference between hm and the guy at Fort Hood is that this hypothetical Rabbi hasn't murdered anyone.

    A better comparison would be to Barak Obama who has said that he will pursue and strike at the terrorists who seek to harm the US wherever they are. (The real difference, given his position and resources, is that Obama is much more diplomatic about what he says).


    MadeNUSA> Last time I read most killed were adults.

    If you look further, you'll also find that most of those killed (that's right, "killed", not "murdered") were males of combat age with very few women amongst the dead (<10%) - which in itself is proof that Israel wasn't "randomly" shooting into Gaza (else we'd expect ~50% of the casualties to be women).

    Most Americans are more familiar with the Gaza operation last year than the events at Fallujah by coalition forces in Iraq a few years ago. US forces also used WP (not fired at people but as an obscurant) and more civilians were killed in an area smaller than Gaza.

    In every war in history there have been civilian casualties. The number killed by Israel, even over the past 60+ years (in defensive wars) is dwarfed just by the number killed by Syria at Hama in one week (you probably never heard about that, right?) or by Jordan during the month of "Black September" - events that were completely ignored by the UN and its (selective and thus Orwellian) Human Rights Commission.
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    Nov 13, 2009 5:37 PM GMT
    theantijock> cases of someone harming their own kind. The Fort Hood schmuck shot his own comrades while this yeshiva administrating idiot denigrated his own congregation

    Even if the underlying premises were correct (and they're not - we'll get to that in a second), there is still no comparison between someone SAYING something stupid and someone else MURDERING more than a dozen people.

    While each gay person who is in the closet harms their own, that doesn't really make them like Roy Cohn.


    Does a Jewish person SAYING something stupid (assuming he did, we'll get to that next) truly "harm" all Jewish people?

    When Mel Gibson makes anti-semitic remarks, is he harming all Australians, all Americans or all Christians?

    Only someone who is already a racist will look at one person and project to the entire group. Stormfront, the Iranian press and the OP post this type of propaganda precisely to appeal to that primitive urge to hate or denigrate a group based on the (alleged) action of one (or a few) individual(s).


    Now getting back to what was actually said, let's compare the headline in Ha'aretz to what is posted here:

    KenetiketCT> Israeli rabbi backs killing non-Jews
    Haaretz> West Bank rabbi: Jews can kill Gentiles who threaten Israel

    The article he quotes goes further, saying said rabbi "supported the murder of non-Jewish babies". (Not just for Passover anymore...?)

    Again, at its base-line, what the rabbi said is no different from the Geneva Conventions: the presence of "protected people" (innocent civilians) do not render bona fide military targets (e.g. a rocket launcher) immune from attack. Responsibility for such deaths rests on those who put them in harms way and used them as human shields.

    Trying to selectively hold Israel (and only Israel) to non-existent standards is evidence of anti-semitism. Does anyone think the UN or its Orwellian Human Rights Commission will convene (let alone in an "emergency" session) to discuss Saudi Arabia's recent bombing of terrorist bases in Yemen (does anyone even know or care how many civilians died?) or events in Pakistan (where this year's Pakistani army's offensive has created millions of refugees and an unknown number of civilian casualties)?

    If the Arab leaders don't want civilian casualties, maybe they should consider making peace rather than waging endless war and then whining that they are the helpless victims when their attacks backfire.
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    Nov 13, 2009 6:02 PM GMT
    realifedad said
    IHG84 saidJust an example of silly hateful men who try to use god to justify the evil in their hearts. They don't know anything about the love of god. I think it hurts god to see people do this stuff to each other, because we weren't meant to.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I Guess what I was saying through sarcasm is that these supposed representatives of God on our planet give him one hell of a bad name. We certainly were'nt meant to treat each other so inhumanely.


    Ah I don't think these people give God a bad name, because they don't truly follow or practice the love of god. They just give humanity a bad name lol
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    Nov 13, 2009 6:32 PM GMT
    theantijock> I didn't realize there was a Jewish expert who was in charge here.

    Straw man.
    I opined, just as you did.
    Chill out, I just happen to disagree with you on one point, which is a false equivalence.
    (I note you avoided my criticism that closeted people and Roy Cohn are alike because they both harm their own guys.)


    theantijock> army guy did bad thing to army guys

    Yup, he did. He MURDERED more than a dozen people.


    theantijock> and Jewish guy did bad thing to Jewish guys.

    He did? How? Because his WORDS gave fuel to racists in Iran, on Stormfront, and here on RJ?

    You know the saying: If this guy didn't exist, someone would invent him.
    (There's no shortage of such forged and out-of-context "quotes" invented or manipulated to make some people hate others.)


    theantijock> The only premise

    There are actually 3 premises at play:

    The premise that what the guy said is horrible and morally wrong.
    It isn't. (In context, it actually parallels the Geneva Conventions.)

    The premise that in saying so he represents all Israelis or Jews.
    He doesn't.

    Thus the premise that what he said hurts Israel/Jews.
    Racists don't need this pretense and only use it to try and rationalize and justify their pre-existing hate or to infect others with it.
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    Nov 13, 2009 6:53 PM GMT
    [quote][cite]Caesarea4 said

    You know the saying: If this guy didn't exist, someone would invent him.
    (There's no shortage of such forged and out-of-context "quotes" invented or manipulated to make some people hate others.)[/quote] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I like this !!! what you quoted here is right. I sometimes wonder why people always seem to need someone to hate, unless its that most people don't like themselves so feel better having someone to put down and hate to build themselves up. Its a shame that its this way. you and I for example don't always agree by any means, but that doesn't mean I cannot like you, and you me. There's no need for me to dislike jewish folks or you to dislike southern folks based on dissagreements and on lack of understanding each other. but sadly this is what happens in our world, what isn't understood is often demonized. Didn't mean to get personal but its a good example of how this all works, and in reality it does come down to personal relations between people.
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    Nov 13, 2009 9:06 PM GMT
    RealLifeDad> based on dissagreements and on lack of understanding each other. but sadly this is what happens in our world, what isn't understood is often demonized.

    I fear it is more mendacious than that. This isn't based on a "misunderstanding" but meant to cause a misunderstanding.

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    Nov 13, 2009 9:14 PM GMT
    Caesarea4 said...When Mel Gibson makes anti-semitic remarks, is he harming all Australians, all Americans or all Christians?

    Actually all 3, plus making him an unvarnished jerk, whose movies, past or present, I will never see again.
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    Nov 13, 2009 9:35 PM GMT
    KenetiketCT saidIsraeli rabbi backs killing non-Jews
    Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:19:15 GMT
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    Israel's three-week offensive on the Gaza Strip last year killed at least 1,350 people, many of whom children, and injured thousands more.
    An Israeli rabbi has supported the murder of non-Jewish babies who pose a threat to Israel in his recently released book The King's Torah.

    Rabbi Yitzhak Shapiro, who heads the Od Yosef Chai Yeshiva religious school in the occupied West Bank, says Jews are allowed to murder even non-Jewish babies and children if they pose a threat to Israel, Haaretz reported.

    Shapiro said Jews are allowed to kill 'those who, by speech, weaken our sovereignty'.

    "It is permissible to kill the Righteous among Nations even if they are not responsible for the threatening situation," he wrote.

    Several prominent rabbis, including Rabbi Yithak Ginzburg and Rabbi Yaakov Yosef, have also recommended the book to their students and followers.

    During the Israeli three-week offensive on the Gaza Strip last year, some leading rabbis issued a ruling which gave permission to kill civilians in the coastal enclave.

    “It is permitted, according to Jewish Law, to fire shells and bombs at the firing sites, even if they are populated by civilians," read a ruling issued by Rabbi Yaakov Yosef, Rabbi Dov Lior, Rabbi Shalom Dov Wolpe and Rabbi Meir Mazuz.

    The ruling gave a free hand to Israeli commanders to attack civilian population during the war in the Gaza Strip in which at least 1350 people, including women and children, were killed.


    I seem to have had the discussion before concerning the number and types of people killed. The data did not show that more women and children were killed. It showed men, who it could be argued were combants, were predominantly the ones killed.

    I would love to look at your data if you don't mind providing it
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    Nov 13, 2009 9:44 PM GMT
    Red_Vespa said
    Caesarea4 said...When Mel Gibson makes anti-semitic remarks, is he harming all Australians, all Americans or all Christians?

    Actually all 3, plus making him an unvarnished jerk, whose movies, past or present, I will never see again.

    I respectfully disagree, RV (on the first part). I don't believe what one jerk says reflects on Americans, Australians or Christians just because he happens to be part of these groups. There are bad apples in every barrel - which generally is not the fault of the barrel but a problem with some apples in the human barrel.

    It does reflect poorly on him (and the people who choose to associate with him), and it is them who appear to be harmed when you and others boycott their work.

    For what it's worth, in fairness to him, Gibson did admit to making the statements and apologized.
    But this isn't about Gibson but about the barrels.

    The point of this topic is to use one bad apple to smear the Israeli and Jew barrels.
    That is the essence of racism.
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    Nov 13, 2009 9:55 PM GMT
    Caesarea4 said...It does reflect poorly on [Gibson] (and the people who choose to associate with him), and it is them who appear to be harmed by it when you or others boycott their work...

    In the strictest sense you are correct. At the same time, it's a common convention to think, and to say, that someone's bad behavior "reflects" on the larger group of which they are a part. It may or may not be justified, but it is how such behavior is commonly perceived.

    In that sense, Mel Gibson's bad behavior can reflect poorly upon the groups with which he is associated. And while he has apologized, I for one judge his sincerity as a matter of PR necessity, being more impressed myself with a professional lifetime of similar abuses, rather than by a few convenient words when he is called out.
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    Nov 13, 2009 10:00 PM GMT
    Sorry, I made some edits right after posting but probably too late for you to see them. Primarily the references to "bad apples" vs. "barrels"... but I think we're pretty much saying the same thing. I try to avoid letting individual actions "reflect" on a subset (e.g. Israelis or Christians) when the behavior is better attributed to a larger barrel (humans).
  • calibro

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    Nov 14, 2009 12:54 AM GMT
    I don't doubt that this could be true, since there are maniacs in every sect of society-- religion, ethnicity, race, etc... however, we should know better than to judge a collective by the actions of extremists. Christians who bomb abortion clinics or Muslims who practice jihad are not representatives of their religions. They are disturbed individuals who happen to be in that collective. Furthermore, I tried finding the article on Haaretz and could not find anything about it.
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    Nov 14, 2009 1:25 AM GMT
    jprichva saidOh, I see the Jew-haters are back.
    Even JewHaterRob has come back to RJ.
    Where are y'all planning to host the convention? Bavaria?


    You're ridiculous. Disagreeing with the actions and words of some Jews does not mean one is a "Jew Hater." That's propaganda right there... and truly it highlights your ignorance. Let's look at the situation logically:

    So, with that language... if I disagree with Osama Bin Laden and think he is bad for his actions, am I an Arab or Muslim Hater?

    If I disagree with Ahmadinejad (who has said many terrible things but has not directly killed people), do I hate all Iranian people?

    If I believe that Al Sharpton is bad, do I hate all black christian people?

    If someone does not agree with the words of the controversial Egyptian leader, Hosni Mubarak, does that mean I hate all Egyptians?

    NO

    NO

    NO

    NO

    and

    NO.

    Get over yourself. Your comments about holding a conference in Bavaria is exactly an example of your blithe ignorance. Its actually quite offensive. I guess YOU hate all German people! Right!? By your words and the implications therein. If I were you I would be embarrassed by comments like the one you just made.
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    Nov 14, 2009 1:25 AM GMT
    calibro saidI don't doubt that this could be true, since there are maniacs in every sect of society-- religion, ethnicity, race, etc... however, we should know better than to judge a collective by the actions of extremists. Christians who bomb abortion clinics or Muslims who practice jihad are not representatives of their religions. They are disturbed individuals who happen to be in that collective. Furthermore, I tried finding the article on Haaretz and could not find anything about it.


    I couldn't find it on Haaretz either and I read Haaretz very often, sometimes daily.
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    Nov 14, 2009 2:28 AM GMT
    jprichva said
    ZbmwM5 said You're ridiculous. Disagreeing with the actions and words of some Jews does not mean one is a "Jew Hater." That's propaganda right there... and truly it highlights your ignorance. Let's look at the situation logically:

    You allow the poster above to imply that this nutcase rabbi speaks for anyone besides his own deranged self and I'M the ridiculous one?

    That's anti-Semitism in a nutshell: pretending that this guy somehow reflects on the attitudes of 'teh Jooz'.

    I see whose 'ignorance' is being highlighted, but it isn't mine.


    Interesting. Last time I checked, I don't see how he implied in any way that this Rabbi is reflective of other Jews..... the deluded belief that he was implying such things was simply a product of either your own bias and/or your rather inventive imagination....

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    Nov 14, 2009 2:33 AM GMT
    if god was real he would be pissed
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    Nov 14, 2009 2:40 AM GMT
    calibro said...Christians who bomb abortion clinics or Muslims who practice jihad are not representatives of their religions.

    Actually, I think they are. That is exactly what their religions teach, and those violent actions are the logical & desired outcome of those teachings. Let's not sugar coat the reality of religious intolerance and extremism, whether Christian or Muslim.