Will politics and our position on gay rights improve once my (50+) age group is out of government?

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    Nov 15, 2009 3:16 PM GMT
    I am sure hoping so !!!! But human nature as it is, and money having the influence that it does I fear it may be more of the same in politics. I am more hopeful for gay rights though as the younger more open minded people start taking over. What about Greed, will this generation coming up be any less greedy on Wall Street ? Will they be less corrupt, less Hypocritical in Government? What do you all think?
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    Nov 15, 2009 3:31 PM GMT
    I think the younger generation in the US is naturally inclined to be more tolerant and open to gays. On the other hand, I find them much less sophisticated politically, and very ignorant of history.

    Hence they will be more susceptible to unscrupulous lies and political manipulation. In other words, Republicans and their willing media outlets such as FOX News will herd them like sheep. And you know what gays have learned to expect from Republicans, like the 2004 election when the Rove strategy demonized us to win votes, a game plan we continue to see today.
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    Nov 15, 2009 7:23 PM GMT
    This reminds me of this graph I saw recently:

    age1.jpg

    Full article here:
    http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/11/05/support-for-same-sex-marriage-by-age-and-state/

    Update: Well, shit. That pic didn't scale well.
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    Nov 15, 2009 7:32 PM GMT
    Your graph didn't show the states in my browser window, unless I dragged it out and viewed it with another program. Here's a version I hope will be visible within an RJ window. I've also included an active link to the source site. Notice any pattern with "Red" Republican states?

    age1-1.jpg

    http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/11/05/support-for-same-sex-marriage-by-age-and-state/
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    Nov 15, 2009 7:39 PM GMT
    Red_Vespa saidYour graph didn't show the states in my browser window, unless I dragged it out and viewed it with another program. Here's a version I hope will be visible within an RJ window. I've also included an active link to the source site. Notice any pattern with "Red" Republican states?


    Thanks for reposting the pic. I noticed it was off but was to lazy to try to fix.

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    Nov 15, 2009 7:54 PM GMT
    MonkeyPuck saidThanks for reposting the pic. I noticed it was off but was to lazy to try to fix.

    You're welcome, und kein Problem, mein Herr. Actually I've seen this graph before, and might have posted it somewhere else here before myself, I can't recall.

    It's promising for gays as a future trend. But as noted above, I worry about young people being swayed by Republican lies & disinformation, which have been perfected to a degree that would put Nazi propaganda chief Josef Goebbels to shame.
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    Nov 15, 2009 7:59 PM GMT
    Gay rights will improve when narrow-minded people who are unable to cope with modernity are dead.

    Let them hence.
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    Nov 15, 2009 8:56 PM GMT
    Red_Vespa said
    MonkeyPuck saidThanks for reposting the pic. I noticed it was off but was to lazy to try to fix.

    You're welcome, und kein Problem, mein Herr. Actually I've seen this graph before, and might have posted it somewhere else here before myself, I can't recall.

    It's promising for gays as a future trend. But as noted above, I worry about young people being swayed by Republican lies & disinformation, which have been perfected to a degree that would put Nazi propaganda chief Josef Goebbels to shame.


    I am not one to go defend Republicans, but laying this at their feet is pointless. The Democrats haven't exactly been helpful in the situation.Religion is far more culpable.Secondly, invoking Nazis is senseless rhetoric. Credibility is lost when trying to compare the state of gay rights in the U.S to the atrocities of the Third Reich.

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    Nov 15, 2009 9:55 PM GMT
    ^^^^^^you really need to watch Paragraph 175 to understand the nature of propaganda and it's relevancy.

    And to answer the OP .. yes .. the old generation to often is steeped in it's ways to be able to look at gays with clear vision instead of the eyes of mccarthyistic conservatism.
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    Nov 15, 2009 10:00 PM GMT
    ActiveAndFit said^^^^^^you really need to watch Paragraph 175 to understand the nature of propaganda and it's relevancy.

    And to answer the OP .. yes .. the old generation to often is steeped in it's ways to be able to look at gays with clear vision instead of the eyes of mccarthyistic conservatism.


    Do you mean to imply that the Nazi persecution of gays and lesbians is equal to the treatment of in the United States?
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    Nov 15, 2009 10:03 PM GMT
    MonkeyPuck said
    ActiveAndFit said^^^^^^you really need to watch Paragraph 175 to understand the nature of propaganda and it's relevancy.

    And to answer the OP .. yes .. the old generation to often is steeped in it's ways to be able to look at gays with clear vision instead of the eyes of mccarthyistic conservatism.


    Do you mean to imply that the Nazi persecution of gays and lesbians is equal to the treatment of in the United States?
    I imply that the method of using propaganda and seemingly harmless laws to persecute people is the same. Do you understand how it all started or what happened to the few survivors afterwards and why?
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    Nov 15, 2009 10:09 PM GMT
    ActiveAndFit said
    MonkeyPuck said
    ActiveAndFit said^^^^^^you really need to watch Paragraph 175 to understand the nature of propaganda and it's relevancy.

    And to answer the OP .. yes .. the old generation to often is steeped in it's ways to be able to look at gays with clear vision instead of the eyes of mccarthyistic conservatism.


    Do you mean to imply that the Nazi persecution of gays and lesbians is equal to the treatment of in the United States?
    I imply that the method of using propaganda and seemingly harmless laws to persecute people is the same. Do you understand how it all started or what happened to the few survivors afterwards and why?


    Given that we don't have laws that result in gays and lesbians going to concentration camps, I fail to see the connection. While the U.S has a long way to go toward equality it is a far cry from Nazi Germany.

    My issue is with people who invoke the holocaust in general. It could ass hat tea bagger or someone promoting gay rights. Where we are now is a far cry from what people went through in Nazi Germany.
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    Nov 15, 2009 10:27 PM GMT
    MonkeyPuck saidGiven that we don't have laws that result in gays and lesbians going to concentration camps, I fail to see the connection. While the U.S has a long way to go toward equality it is a far cry from Nazi Germany.

    My issue is with people who invoke the holocaust in general. It could ass hat tea bagger or someone promoting gay rights. Where we are now is a far cry from what people went through in Nazi Germany.
    You are not really paying attention to what I have been highlighting or may you really need to look at the whole story of what happened to gays in Germany, but also other times in history (like circa 350 ad laws against gays).

    Prior to the imprisonment and ultimate concentration camps .. Berlin actually had a bustling "gay scene" and much research showing the normalcy or nature of sexuality. Through the use of a simple anti-sodomy law ( p.175) anti-gay sentiment was stirred up almost overnight under the guise of moral purity .. and the rest is history. And afterwards, the few survivors were pretty much shut up about what they suffered under the fear of further persecution by that same law that stayed in place for decades after.

    The moral of the story, is people do really shitty things if you let them and underestimate the power of propaganda. People can stay ignorant at their own peril. The religious right is not winning battles by being nice but by repeating the same old tired meme that gays are immoral and a danger to the nation and it's children. This is why most minority groups have anti-defamation groups and don't forget their past struggles.

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    Nov 15, 2009 10:34 PM GMT
    ActiveAndFit said
    MonkeyPuck saidGiven that we don't have laws that result in gays and lesbians going to concentration camps, I fail to see the connection. While the U.S has a long way to go toward equality it is a far cry from Nazi Germany.

    My issue is with people who invoke the holocaust in general. It could ass hat tea bagger or someone promoting gay rights. Where we are now is a far cry from what people went through in Nazi Germany.
    You are not really paying attention to what I have been highlighting or may you really need to look at the whole story of what happened to gays in Germany, but also other times in history (like circa 350 ad laws against gays).

    Prior to the imprisonment and ultimate concentration camps .. Berlin actually had a bustling "gay scene" and much research showing the normalcy or nature of sexuality. Through the use of a simple anti-sodomy law ( p.175) anti-gay sentiment was stirred up almost overnight under the guise of moral purity .. and the rest is history. And afterwards, the few survivors were pretty much shut up about what they suffered under the fear of further persecution by that same law that stayed in place for decades after.

    The moral of the story, is people do really shitty things if you let them and underestimate the power of propaganda. People can stay ignorant at their own peril. The religious right is not winning battles by being nice but by repeating the same old tired meme that gays are immoral and a danger to the nation and it's children.



    No, I hear what you are saying and I am saying that the situation now is different than the situation you are describing. In the last 8 years we have seen anti-sodomy laws stricken down and multiple states have legalized same sex marriages or partnerships. More recently we saw the passage of a national hate crimes law. This is all progress. Does it mean the fight for equality is over? No. Does it mean that there aren't people out there spreading lies in order to push their ideology? No. Should those people be called out for their shit? Yes.

    Nazi Germany it isn't.
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    Nov 15, 2009 10:38 PM GMT
    My God Activeandfit --- I've never read that the folks up in Main against Gay Marriage had gone quite this far. You 20somethings hurry up and take over !!!! These people are really serious about doing away with our rights.
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    Nov 15, 2009 10:47 PM GMT
    MonkeyPuck saidNo, I hear what you are saying and I am saying that the situation now is different than the situation you are describing. In the last 8 years we have seen anti-sodomy laws stricken down and multiple states have legalized same sex marriages or partnerships. More recently we saw the passage of a national hate crimes law. This is all progress. Does it mean the fight for equality is over? No. Does it mean that there aren't people out there spreading lies in order to push their ideology? No. Should those people be called out for their shit? Yes.

    Nazi Germany it isn't.
    Yes I see progress too, but we need not forget the "gay world" does not end at our borders .. gays in places like Iran, Iraq, and even Jamaica suffer grotesquely and it seems like no one really pays attention .. we need not wait for concentration camps and be complacent when people ignorantly try to minimize the troubles of gays or what they face due to something as simple as a few religious teachings or laws that enable people to ensnare gays.

    One thing that the hate crimes law will do is make for more statistics on how much "gay-hate" is actually out there. Calling out and shaming people for their anti-gay hate is worth something. I am confident if people actually saw what happens/happened with all this anti-gay hate both in history and today in other parts of the world they would have a lot more compassion for gays.

    Just as a side note, I have noticed that nations in europe that have memorials for gays in the Holocaust seem to be more tolerant of gays.
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    Nov 15, 2009 10:52 PM GMT
    realifedad said My God Activeandfit --- I've never read that the folks up in Main against Gay Marriage had gone quite this far. You 20somethings hurry up and take over !!!! These people are really serious about doing away with our rights.
    This is more common than you think. It is the linchpin in all that these anti-gay "family" groups teachings. In fact, one of the founders of the "gays as deviants must be cured" movements once commented that there might not be a cure and that extermination might be an option. That was as recent as the 1980's, but his "research" is still the basis of most of these religious groups teachings.
  • Webster666

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    Nov 15, 2009 11:00 PM GMT
    Hardly anyone who is 50+ ever leaves government until they're dead.
    So, don't count on that.
    --Gay rights will improve if Obama has the guts to end DADT, some time during his second term.
    --Gay rights will improve if the U.S. Supreme Court declares us equal.
    I'm optimistic that this will happen a lot sooner than most people think.
    --Gay rights will improve every time an old person dies and takes their anti-gay voting penchant with them. No, I'm not saying that all old people vote against us, just a large majority. And, a clear majority of young folks do not vote against gay rights.
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    Nov 15, 2009 11:02 PM GMT
    ActiveAndFit said
    MonkeyPuck saidNo, I hear what you are saying and I am saying that the situation now is different than the situation you are describing. In the last 8 years we have seen anti-sodomy laws stricken down and multiple states have legalized same sex marriages or partnerships. More recently we saw the passage of a national hate crimes law. This is all progress. Does it mean the fight for equality is over? No. Does it mean that there aren't people out there spreading lies in order to push their ideology? No. Should those people be called out for their shit? Yes.

    Nazi Germany it isn't.
    Yes I see progress too, but we need not forget the "gay world" does not end at our borders .. gays in places like Iran, Iraq, and even Jamaica suffer grotesquely and it seems like no one really pays attention .. we need not wait for concentration camps and be complacent when people ignorantly try to minimize the troubles of gays or what they face due to something as simple as a few religious teachings or laws that enable people to ensnare gays.

    One thing that the hate crimes law will do is make for more statistics on how much "gay-hate" is actually out there. Calling out and shaming people for their anti-gay hate is worth something. I am confident if people actually saw what happens/happened with all this anti-gay hate both in history and today in other parts of the world they would have a lot more compassion for gays.

    Just as a side note, I have noticed that nations in europe that have memorials for gays in the Holocaust seem to be more tolerant of gays.


    I am not advocating for complacency. I am also painfully aware of the plight of gays and lesbians in the world. I actually grew up in Turkey in the 80's and while fairly more progressive than Iran, it really wasn't gay friendly. I knew exactly two gay men when I lived there one of which was murdered because he was gay.

    We completely agree on the issues. We agree that the issue is more than confined to the U.S. And we agree that dropping our guard would be detrimental. Where we disagree is on invoking the holocaust. I am content to agree to disagree as the argument is bound to lead to us running in circles and creating unneeded ill will.
  • Webster666

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    Nov 15, 2009 11:05 PM GMT
    Moneypuck,
    Your chart was interesting.
    The backward, less educated, red neck states are all clumped at the bottom of the chart, proving that educated people tend to be less homophobic.
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    Nov 15, 2009 11:14 PM GMT
    MonkeyPuck said...Credibility is lost when trying to compare the state of gay rights in the U.S to the atrocities of the Third Reich.

    I mentioned no atrocities. My comparison was with the propaganda techniques of the Nazis in the first part of the last century. Do please try to hone your reading comprehension skills a bit better, would you? You'll do yourself a favor and look less of a fool, along with the others here who jumped on the concentration camp atrocities bandwagon without justification.
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    Nov 15, 2009 11:19 PM GMT
    Red_Vespa said
    MonkeyPuck said...Credibility is lost when trying to compare the state of gay rights in the U.S to the atrocities of the Third Reich.

    I mentioned no atrocities. My comparison was with the propaganda techniques of the Nazis in the first part of the last century. Do please try to hone your reading comprehension skills a bit better, would you? You'll do yourself a favor and look less of a fool, along with the others here who jumped on the concentration camp atrocities bandwagon without justification.


    Way to jump in with the ad hominem attacks.

    To pretend you can invoke Nazi propaganda without the emotional baggage of the holocaust is disingenuous at best.
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    Nov 15, 2009 11:21 PM GMT
    MonkeyPuck said Where we disagree is on invoking the holocaust. I am content to agree to disagree as the argument is bound to lead to us running in circles and creating unneeded ill will.
    Why hide things that make us uncomfortable? I sure some think that all the programming on racial discrimination, or the holocaust in relation to anti-semitism, or other persecutions is counter productive. I am confident that the knowledge of these things has helped the cause of those groups in this country.

    Some groups shout and wail .. "how dare you claim suffering" when in reality it is the homophobic notion that gays suffer because they are immoral and deserve it. I don't care for that self-righteous homophobia. We need not compare ourselves to ANYONE as if we are less than or owing to them .. we can stand on our own feet. The nature of homosexuality and the problems we face as well as the reasons have their own uniqueness.

    Also though, I recognize gays who have suffered even to the point of death over the past 1600+ years because they deserve to be remembered and not swept under the carpet like dirt. If other people want to disrespect their memory or forget them, it is to their shame.
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    Nov 15, 2009 11:25 PM GMT
    ActiveAndFit said
    MonkeyPuck said Where we disagree is on invoking the holocaust. I am content to agree to disagree as the argument is bound to lead to us running in circles and creating unneeded ill will.
    Why hide things that make us uncomfortable? I sure some think that all the programming on racial discrimination, or the holocaust in relation to anti-semitism, or other persecutions is counter productive. I am confident that the knowledge of these things has helped the cause of those groups in this country.

    Some groups shout and wail .. "how dare you claim suffering" when in reality it is the homophobic notion that gays suffer because they are immoral and deserve it. I don't care for that self-righteous homophobia. We need not compare ourselves to ANYONE as if we are less than or owing to them .. we can stand on our own two feet. The nature of homosexuality and the problems we face as well as the reasons have their own uniqueness.

    Also though, I recognize gays who have suffered even to the point of death over the past 1600+ years because they deserve to be remember and not swept under the carpet like dirt. If other people want to disrespect their memory or forget them, it is to their shame.


    You are making a few assumptions as to why I disagree with the notion of invoking the holocaust. It has nothing to do with causing me discomfort nor does it involve an attempt to sweep them under the carpet.
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    Nov 15, 2009 11:28 PM GMT
    MonkeyPuck saidYou are making a few assumptions as to why I disagree with the notion of invoking the holocaust. It has nothing to do with causing me discomfort nor does it involve an attempt to sweep them under the carpet.
    Nope. I am addressing the notion as a whole, that some have, that gays have not suffered enough to be worthy of mention. And yes, it does make many people uncomfortable as it should. Notice my very specific use of "some" and "some groups" an not YOU