Gays in the Military

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 18, 2009 2:31 AM GMT
    This will start a flame war but what the heck. It is an argument based on logic and I am a Rationalist to the nth degree and yes I have a ton of military friends.

    Why do gay guys join the military? I understand the guys that do it for economic reasons and I understand the guys that do it for Patriotic reasons.

    I think gay guys bring a ton of great qualities and immense skills to the military. But the military, and the US in general, says gay guys should not be in the military.

    So, when gay guys join the military but stay in the closet, are they not just advancing the no gays in the military? They are giving the military their skills, the same military that says they should not be there? You are supporting the same regime that would end your military service?

    I do not understand that. The Military says officially that my presence will disrupt company cohesion, that me being a gay guy will have a negative effect, but I stay here anyway.

    Suppose all gay guys just quit. Would that have an effect on the Military? No, fine. Yes, then maybe it should be considered.

    At what point are all the gay guys in the Miltary just enablers? Just enable the No Gay policy to keep going?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 18, 2009 2:43 AM GMT
    So what did your military friends have to say about your inquiry?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 18, 2009 3:14 AM GMT
    The antijock-

    Yes.

    If Ft. Lauderdale did that and SF did that and the Isreali army did that? I say yes. Livng in a city is hardly equal to joining a military force that demands heterosexuality that someone joins by their own choice. SF does not demand you to be hetero.. lol What a stupid argument. Can you do a bit better?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 18, 2009 3:17 AM GMT
    My gay friends are mixed but they are wrong. They are supporting with their skills a group that says they should not be their to begin with. Ft. Lauderdale? SF? Please. Debate the topic or don't debate at all.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 18, 2009 4:02 AM GMT
    theintijock-

    The difference is that paying taxes is not sometihng you do voluntarily. Joining the military, and helping the military by being a service member is voluntary. And by joining, you support an anti-homosexual regime. You walk in knowing that the military does not support YOU as a gay man.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 18, 2009 4:06 AM GMT
    Theantijock-

    I do not mean to be rude. But what is your logic? I am totally lost, and maybe it is just me. But your answer had no logic.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 18, 2009 5:30 AM GMT
    Maybe some guys see themselves as Americans first and gay second. Or in need of educational financial assistance first and gay second. Or as great leaders of others and Americans and in need of financial asst and gay 4th.
    Maybe not all gay guys see being gay as the most important aspect of their live from which all other decisons in life take second place to.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 18, 2009 5:30 AM GMT
    First of all technically the law allows Gays in the military, but of course requires you stay in the closet.

    Other than that, the reasons I have heard are pretty much the same reason straight people enter.

    Perhaps some are poor or not well off so it is an career option if you cannot afford school. You might need to support your family and don't really have other job options. On the job training and education and benefits. Family tradition. A way to get away from a family situation. And for some it's just a sense of patriotic duty. I have known people in all those situations.

    Also, some do not really discover they are gay till after they join. That being said a good number do actually leave after discovering they cannot really tolerate the whole DADT situation.
  • MercuryMax

    Posts: 713

    Nov 18, 2009 5:57 AM GMT
    Actually I have a couple of threads related to this...I dunno how to get to them...but they're there. I just got out of the military several months ago. I just got back from Iraq in May as a matter of fact....

    I joined the USAF because I heard they were the "Elite" of the branches on the plane of intellect and "thinking before doing". I also joined because I am patriotic, I do love my country and countrymen. I also joined for the college funds, steady pay, the challenge....and so on and so on.....

    I never planned on making it a career, for the simple reason that it openly discriminates against gays. However, while I was in the service, I felt that I was to be a posterboy or spokesman for gays. After about 1.5yr or 2yrs being in, I decided that I shouldn't be afraid of my government or my colleagues. So I came out to them. 80% of my coworkers knew I was gay. I was a mechanic, I am masculine, I enjoyed the same things they enjoyed.

    They treated me just like anyone else. It was a risk doing what I did. As a matter of fact, one of my supervisors caught me at a gay club. He asked me what was goin on...then I said..."well, .......I'm gay...." And surprisely, he didn't give it a second thought.

    Back to the point, I joined for all the right reasons. I did my job well because I had a good work ethic. However, I also stood up for what I believed in and made it clear that I wasn't interested in hiding my sexuality. I was professional about it though. If they wanted to bring me down and try and kick me out, then I would have hired a good lawyer and turned it into another media circus with the friends I knew in the news of the local area. I would have probably lost the battle, but it would have been another effort towards the gay rights war.

    It never came to becoming a media circus.....which was fortunate for my AF career, but also I was an excellent representative for our "community" and most were intrigued that its not just rumor that We are just like Them when they found out I was gay.

    Hopefully that answers your question(s).
  • joggerva

    Posts: 731

    Nov 18, 2009 6:03 AM GMT
    MercuryMax said As a matter of fact, one of my supervisors caught me at a gay club. He asked me what was goin on...then I said..."well, .......I'm gay...." And surprisely, he didn't give it a second thought.


    Thanks for sharing your story Max. But I have one question, what was your supervisor doing at the gay club? icon_eek.gif
  • trl_

    Posts: 994

    Nov 18, 2009 6:12 AM GMT
    MercuryMax said one of my supervisors caught me at a gay club. He asked me what was goin on...


    icon_biggrin.gif You could have asked him the exact same question haha
  • MercuryMax

    Posts: 713

    Nov 18, 2009 6:17 AM GMT
    Actually he was there with a bunch of college friends, the gay bar was a popular place for college kids in our city cause of the drag shows on friday nights....

    And believe me I did ask him about it.....and he explained he had gotten persuaded to go by the girls....I didn't doubt it...it was all too common.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 18, 2009 6:20 AM GMT
    MercuryMax saidIt never came to becoming a media circus.....which was fortunate for my AF career, but also I was an excellent representative for our "community" and most were intrigued that its not just rumor that We are just like Them when they found out I was gay.
    Well I for one am grateful we have your representation icon_biggrin.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 18, 2009 6:32 AM GMT
    Ok, I listened to your tired defenses

    OK? Gays in the Military. They chose to become a part of a very anti-homo organizatition. By Choice!! No one forced them. They joined a very anti-homosexual organization BY CHOICE.

    SO, Whatever happens happens. They do well. They get booted. Who cares? They chose that life knowing that the military hates gays. Why am I as a civilian that pays taxes suppossed to care?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 18, 2009 6:37 AM GMT
    Its just something that the higher ups have a problem with. The guys you serve with don't give a crap as long as you do your job right. I had actually met my guy while I was in the military. We weren't slobbering all over each other, or sneaking off to have sex. Though I'm very positive a lot of the guys knew we were closer than just friends lol.

    Nobody gave a shit, though they made jokes about it. They weren't offensive jokes, I took it as typical busting your balls kind of shit, which I'd give right back. It didn't bother him or I, because we had, and have [he's doing his last tour], a ton of respect from all the other guys we served with.

    I think the whole issue is really stupid, and I hope it changes. To be honest even if I weren't in love with a guy, I'd still just think it was stupid, and needed to be changed. And no guy who is gay, should be singled out and abused.

    Though I do not want to see the military become some overly PC place. There's a lot of ball busting, and shit talking among the guys, and its not done in a hateful way.

  • MercuryMax

    Posts: 713

    Nov 18, 2009 6:41 AM GMT
    Triggerman saidOk, I listened to your tired defenses

    OK? Gays in the Military. They chose to become a part of a very anti-homo organizatition. By Choice!! No one forced them. They joined a very anti-homosexual organization BY CHOICE.

    SO, Whatever happens happens. They do well. They get booted. Who cares? They chose that life knowing that the military hates gays. Why am I as a civilian that pays taxes suppossed to care?




    I suppose you missed the point of what I wrote before. I never looked at the military as solely being a "anti-homo organization". I was in the military, times are changing. The people in the military are a tight-knit family, but at the same time, they aren't mindless zombies that think just because they are in the military means that they support the anti-gay motive. As individuals in the military that i've worked with, i've found more people either support gays or just dont care now-a-days....

    Just because military policy is anti-gay, doesn't mean everyone in the military is. And policy can always be re-written, we just have to have people like IHG84 & myself prove that it needs to be re-written. You, as a civilian, have no obligation to care. If you dont care, then you don't care, no one is forcing you to.


    QUOTE AUTHOR GOES HEREThough I do not want to see the military become some overly PC place. There's a lot of ball busting, and shit talking among the guys, and its not done in a hateful way.


    I totally agree here.
  • Anto

    Posts: 2035

    Nov 18, 2009 6:49 AM GMT
    Antijock,
    Your argument in regard to living in states or cities is not the same. The city or state won't kick you out. You can't really go anywhere in the United States and expect gay equality, that's also assuming a gay person even has the means to move.

    Joining the military is different obviously. They have a policy that forbids homosexuality in private or public life 24/7 365. A lot of gay and straight people don't even know this about the policy. It doesn't give a gay person permission to serve if they are private or hidden with their orientation like people assume it does.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 18, 2009 7:33 AM GMT
    Sorry, Mercury Max and all you gay closeted military,

    The truth is, you can not come out. You can couch it in all the fine words you want, but in the end: You can't come out. Sorry. Fuck you. That is the sad hidden closeted life you chose. You know it and I know it. You are stuck in the big old closet.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 18, 2009 7:37 AM GMT
    I, as a civillian, pay taxes. Don't tell me that I do not care because I am a civillian..... I pay taxes and I for one cares where those takes go.
  • MercuryMax

    Posts: 713

    Nov 18, 2009 7:37 AM GMT
    You can ask anyone who knows me, or who has worked with me. I am not closeted. I am not afraid to tell people that I date guys. I may not broadcast it by having a rainbow tattoo on my face, or by dressing in drag on the weekends, or by using the gay feminine lisp, but I do not hide it. I just be myself and live an honest life.

    QUOTE AUTHOR GOES HEREI, as a civillian, pay taxes. Don't tell me that I do not care because I am a civillian..... I pay taxes and I for one cares where those takes go.


    I'm starting to get really confused on what this thread is actually about...is it about taxes? gays being part of a anti-gay organization? about gays being closeted? or what?

    And I didn't say you dont care....I said, you're not being forced to care.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 18, 2009 7:40 AM GMT
    Triggerman saidSorry, Mercury Max and all you gay closeted military,

    The truth is, you can not come out. You can couch it in all the fine words you want, but in the end: You can't come out. Sorry. Fuck you. That is the sad hidden closeted life you chose. You know it and I know it. You are stuck in the big old closet.



    Classy. Tell that to your gay friends in the military, see if they like being friends with you. icon_rolleyes.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 18, 2009 7:43 AM GMT
    Triggerman saidSorry, Mercury Max and all you gay closeted military,

    The truth is, you can not come out. You can couch it in all the fine words you want, but in the end: You can't come out. Sorry. Fuck you. That is the sad hidden closeted life you chose. You know it and I know it. You are stuck in the big old closet.
    You sound .. er .. incoherent tonight
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 18, 2009 2:06 PM GMT

    Triggerman started this thread saying it might start a flame war. He didn't get that, but some of his later posts sound like that's exactly what he wants. This is unfortunate because the rights of gays in the military is an important and current topic. Nevertheless, Triggerman's motives. notwithstanding, there have been a number of thoughtful and helpful posts to the string.

    It seems to me that men like IGH84 and Mercury Max not only served our country honorably and bravely, but that by being open with their peers may very well have helped undermine the hysterical homophobia being spouted by some (mostly older and/or rabidly christian) higher ups in the military.

    Aside from the very real possibility that gays and lesbians in the military are less closeted than you might think and so demonstrating that their presence does not undermine the effective or cohesion of their units, there is the issue of people being able to do what they want with their lives. Men and women who know they are gay when they sign up presumably know they need to tread lightly or stay closeted, but, for whatever reason, there are other more compelling elements to service. Nothing should stop them. And, while I hope this does not turn out to be accurate, if they wait until DADT is repealed to sign up, they may too old or too burdened with commitments to serve.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 18, 2009 2:53 PM GMT
    I sometimes think a subconscious reason I joined the Army in 1969 was because that's where the men were, and the women weren't. LOL! And also because I was having doubts about my masculinity, but I wouldn't accept the possibility of being gay, thinking the Army would force me into becoming more of a man, both in reality and in the eyes of others. There were other reasons I joined, mostly self-destructive from depression, especially following a very serious motorcycle accident I suffered.

    Yet despite all those wrong reasons for joining, and expecting I would hate the military experience itself, I absolutely loved it, and stayed for 25 years. I never had such a good time, thriving where I feared I would fail, getting rapid and rare promotion from buck Private to Colonel before my health failed, partly from the residuals of that motorcycle accident.

    I'm sure lots of gays are conflicted about military service when you stay in, because there's nothing else like it, and nothing else you enjoy doing as much, in spite of anti-gay hostility. If you wanna play their game, you gotta accept all their rules; it is a choice, if not a good one.

    But I can't fully answer the OP's question, at least not in the way intended, because I thought I was honestly answering the Army's question of homosexuality with a "No" reply, and didn't come out to myself until 18 months after my retirement. Does make me think of the recruiting sergeant's question to Bill Murray & Harold Ramis in the 1981 comedy movie "Stripes" though:

    Sergeant: Are either of you homosexuals?

    Murray: You mean, like, flaming or...?

    Sergeant: Well, it's a standard question we have to ask.

    Ramis: No, we're not homosexual, but we're willing to learn.

    Murray: Yeah, would they send us someplace special?

    Sergeant: I guess that's no on both.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 18, 2009 3:07 PM GMT
    theantijock saidAll gays should leave the army because of DADT.


    So to you self-interest is more important that serving your country. That's your opinion. It's pathetic.