love worth?

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    Dec 23, 2007 4:37 AM GMT
    To have your true love, you'll have to choose one of following, which would you choose?


    cut short of your life
    lower your IQ
    forever in poverty
    or no friends


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    Dec 23, 2007 5:07 AM GMT
    I guess first you'd have to convince me that true love actually exists...

    I guess for the righer person, I would deal with all of those, except I'm not sure I could choose to lower my IQ ...
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    Dec 23, 2007 5:33 AM GMT
    What about being less selfish, and less picky about what you expect of the other? Too often you socially integrated people only fuck it all up because you have outrageous expectations of love. You all expect love to just be a perfectly pleasant experiance that requires no more effort than taking a drug. But you don't realize that what you really have to sacrifice is your egotism, and work hard to brige the often disparate needs and wills and goals of two individuals.

    Selfless masochistic dependency is at the other pole of love's perversions. Just because you are willing to take an outrageous amount of shit from someone doesnt mean you love them. Love only works if you are altruistic and respectful towards eachother. Lust is not love but strong desire is an essential component. If you can't trust, can't empathize, and can't share fairly, then you can't love.

    I've been burned by too many people over the years that i'm not about to trust anyone. If any of you think for one second that love will make your life any less insignificant and painful then you are grossly mistaken. Most of all, it has been my experiance that people are only attracted to the IDEA of being in love with someone but not actually ever in love with them. They just want them to be, and do exactly what they want instead of trying to meet them half way. Fuck all you all! You aren't lovers and adorers. Just consumers and users. If you think that you have to give up any of those four things to find love then you will never find it!

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    Dec 23, 2007 5:42 AM GMT
    good one, lovesick...
    seem like you lost all innocence and dream for love.
    I have to wonder, have you ever received or felt love at no cost to you?
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    Dec 23, 2007 5:44 AM GMT
    gettoknowit
    it's purposely general so you can't weight each of them. its' your value on each of them vs love.
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    Dec 23, 2007 5:53 AM GMT
    financial poverty. until a couple years ago i spent every moment of my life that i can remember in poverty. living without money isn't so hard on you, you learn to make do.

    as for lovesick... i truly feel for you, but i don't think i have the right words to improve things for you. i wish i could, love is beautiful. in the end you have to realize that your life is -your- life, whether you want to be happy, loving, forgiving, or angry, spiteful, etc -- regardless of what -any- other person does to you, this is your choice and yours alone.

    it's your life, when it comes near to the end what memories do you want to reflect on? how do you want to remember yourself?

    peace
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    Dec 23, 2007 6:43 AM GMT
    none of them.
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    Dec 23, 2007 6:59 AM GMT
    Actually no, alienated psychopaths like me are alienated psychopaths because we have never been exposed to anything that was truly innocent or loving. The only thing I have ever known was how cruel, ignorant, selfish, and evil people are. Even my own parents don't have a loving bone in their bodies. Im fully aware of what I missing out on, but there isn't anthing that can be done about it that I'm not already doing or haven't tried. If anything it only makes me angry to think about it- brutal, clear, unclouded, all seeing, all knowing existential realization only makes it more painful.

    I didn't choose this life for myself. This was done to me. The only thing I can do is radically accept that I am powerless to change most of the circumstances of it, take my pills, go to therapy, and try as hard as I can to not give any bitch ass fag who thinks they know any better about the caprices and misfortunes of my life than me PTSD. "Hideous to behold is he on whom injustice presseth alone alone" says Nietzsche.

    I don't want to look back on my life anymore, it reminds me of how little there is that I can percieve ahead of me. I missed too many critical developemental milestones just trying to live through each day to get to this one. I guess the only thing like love that I have ever known has come from my cat. To bad I'm just a plain old butt-fucking fagot, and not some degenerate paraphiliac into bestiality. Then I would probably be more satisfied with life.


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    Dec 23, 2007 7:34 AM GMT
    shrug. how you choose to react to misfortunes in your life is still your choice. to the best of my knowledge, the future is not written. until you die, you always have choices to make.

    your posts are full of bitterness and judge everyone without fact. not only would i say i wouldn't paint everyone in your pictures, but i doubt i'd find very many people that match your vile descriptions. my impression is that your antagonistic views towards love and lovers and your own experiences is highly reflective of dependent issues. that is only my impression and i'm free to have it just as you're free to hold your dark views on love.

    we have two drastically different views on love apparently. you may call me foolish and a few other things, but i choose to remember most, the best parts of all the times i spent with guys. bad stuff happened, but the memories i keep around are all of the best times i had with them.

    as for my current relationship, never an argument. plenty of different opinions, likes and dislikes, but never an argument. we love and respect each other and do things for each other happily. there's plenty of kisses, intimacy, and time spent together. never a worry about trust, jealousy, lack of respect, etc.

    but none of these things you're saying we're all like.
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    Dec 23, 2007 8:04 AM GMT
    My partner and I (well my partner actually) are packing our bags to go up to see his parents in Germany over Christmas. We usually argue when we do this because I am punctual and he is not at all (I have the only persistently late German).

    Anyway, our relationship moves onto ten years and I am ever more grateful for it. Sure we have an enormous amount of problems both in our relationship and in our lives but they are sort of overshadowed by a little oasis of calm.

    These days I understand what being a couple is about better than I did in the beginning and I have gotten way better at drawing compromises (and I have learned to fuck off on the web rather than indulge in the futility of trying to move things along).

    I don't know what true love is or if it even exists.

    When I met my partner I had given up (really given up) and decided that I would just live alone.

    I grew up in Texas and a lot of shitty things happened (a lot of great things happened too). Along the way (13 years in LA and another 3 in New York) I met a lot of interesting people, made some super friends, and met some real lulus. I come from a lower middle class family and no one has ever given me anything.

    My thought is that you don't really need to give up anything in order to obtain true love (again whatever that is). What is necessary is to recognize that love (true or less true) comes in the package in which it comes and you have to love that package while forgetting about true love (whatever that is).

    The whole thing is a compromise. There are new compromises everyday.

    If I think that I can exchange wealth for some dream prince with a six pack, a ten inch dick, and who is perfectly well adjusted, speaks fluent French, and can fly a helicopter then I am just deluding myself.

    Real people have gas, occasionally drink too much, might be slow, are impatient, have unpleasant diseases (like diabetes), are work obsessed, are shopaholics, and so forth. Reality is just a whole series of compromises.

    Having thus blathered on I can say that my family (the one I built with one boyfriend and two dachshunds) is the absolute centerpiece of my life and that I didn't give up anything that I really needed in order to build it. We share many dreams and we work to get to them together. He puts up with my crap (and is an angel to do so) and I put up with his (though I am less tolerant than I should be).

    Cheers,
    Terry
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    Dec 23, 2007 9:44 AM GMT
    Lovesick--

    You sound amazingly like my last ex. Like you, he grew up in a family not only loveless, but actively hostile to him. He was indigent, thrown out on his own at an early age, and also like you, very smart and verbal.

    Consequently, he learned to be manipulative and to use people without conscience, since he never felt any emotional obligations to them, and he needed to survive somehow.

    One of the reasons for the saying that "psychopaths are the best sex", which is true in my experience, is that sex is one of the main avenues for them of hooking into someone they can use, and since they have no emotional gifts to offer, the sex itself becomes the means of holding onto someone.

    The problem is (or one of the problems) is that when the sex itself stops holding things together, the psychopath takes this as one more rejection, not understanding really that there wasn't any real glue in the relationship other than superb fucking; and this makes him even more bitter and prone to crazy behaviors.

    That was my last relationship. And let me tell you, from the other side, it has left me so scarred that I haven't even been able to think about having sex with anyone for almost a year now. The thought repulses me. I sincerely hope that will change.
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    Dec 23, 2007 5:03 PM GMT
    LOVESICK
    I've seen many animals being treated badly, dogs got kicked around when young, wore a rubber band that almost cut their head off, kitten that were abused since young... they all turn out normal as adult, although timid. They are not hateful or psychopath. interesting that animals turn out better then human under worth condition. Human has an inborn ability to love, to give, to interact... and when those ability were not nurtured, they yearn in agony.

    I see that if you were to grow up in a normal environment, you'd be the most passionate person we'll see. you have passionate love and dream, and endless energy to make things happen. But because lacking the nurture when young, and some bad experiences as adult, those energy and love turned to the dark side. Now your life is filled with musics that numb your soul, but speak the hurts. You have a bigger demon to fight then most of us. It is just up to you to fight it or not.

    Don't turn out to be the ex like jprichva talk about. With every opportunity of sincerity and love that comes your way, you might give up the person, but hold on to those moments. They'll help you thru your life.



    Terry, sound like you'd willing to gave up all 4 for love.
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    Dec 23, 2007 5:39 PM GMT
    Besides the fact that this seems like a "monkeys paw" argument, I can't imagine that in any 'true love' situation, that you would have to give up something that was important to who you are.
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    Dec 23, 2007 6:48 PM GMT
    Friends would be the hardest to give up.
    Cutting short my life: no, I am having way too much fun to sacrifice even one day, although I would probably be willing to sacrifice the rest of it, to save my present love's life.
    If I lower my intelligence I might end up in poverty anyway, so I guess I would pick the poverty route. Since I have been there already I know it isn't all that bad.
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    Dec 24, 2007 12:55 AM GMT
    "I don't want to look back on my life anymore, it reminds me of how little there is that I can percieve ahead of me."

    This is the problem with most therapy. The rumination entrenches the "pathology." And there is indeed a sense in much of what you write, LoveSick, that you cultivate this pathology as a kind of heroic difference. It's a virtual mantra of despair.

    The fallacy here is your deep belief in causality. You seem to say you can't look at the past because it reminds you that you are fated by it. Actually, the rumination itself is the fate, not the events of the past. If you've been doing mindfulness training, you must know that breaking the spell cast by rumination of the past liberates you from the need to keep validating your memory.

    I am puzzled that you read Rumi and feel so fatalistic about love. I assume you know his biography, that he was a cold intellectual type and was overwhelmed by love when Shams came into his life. And you know that Shams disappeared, throwing him into, um, lovesick despair. As long as you believe the experience of love is conditioned by your early deprivation of it, like your general insistence that the past is fate, you're bound to keep proving your thesis.

    If you haven't read them, I suggest you read Andrew Harvey's very gay essays on Rumi. Andrew, who lives in Las Vegas, is quite a character -- brilliant, cross-dressing, mystical, crazy as a loon.

    Now, if you admire Rumi, you have presumably made some investigation of Sufism, the esoteric branch of Islam that pursues aesthetics as path to ... whatever.

    One sees this in your posts. You use images, you write exceedingly well and you use music -- all literally part of the Sufi path. I doubt you want to twirl in a robe like the mev levi of Konya. But you might consider making art of your madness with serious intention rather than just reactive posting.

    Perhaps you could add Lacan and post-structuralism to your menu. Read Julia Kristeva, who approaches therapy as an aesthetic enterprise. Her book Black Sun, about depression, is particularly edifying. You might also read James Hillman, before he became a pop writer. Read "Revisioning Psychology" or "The Myth of Analysis."

    Like most crazy people, you are already engaging in your "cure" (actually an anti-cure) with your aesthetic practice, but unless you cultivate it with intention, it becomes rote rather than insightful.

    I'm just saying....



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    Dec 26, 2007 12:45 AM GMT
    ebl333 saidTo have your true love, you'll have to choose one of following, which would you choose?

    cut short of your life
    lower your IQ
    forever in poverty
    or no friends

    I've been in love and lived in a relationship that burned inside me with a power stronger than any star. Ironically, to start, neiter one of us called it 'love' or expected love to come out of our dating, but somehow it just happened. We met in Colorado Springs and moved to Boston within 3 months of knowing each other. So, in a way, I 'let go' of some of my friendships and acquaintances, so that I could grow and learn from a long term relationship. I've always been expecting that I would fall in love and live in poverty for a while before reaching financial success together; though that didn't turn out to be a problem. I never think that long term relationships affect your IQ, as much as they help you learn more about yourself and what you want. And even if I did end up living less years because it was a trade off, I'd make those years the best they possibly could ever be. Come on, If it means being in a long term relationship with someone I love, than there's no real loss. I'd die happy.

    I feel sorry for anyone who leads themselves to believe that love is something they can do without. They cling to their superficial lifestyles and shallow points of view, holding on to their looks, possessions, and status in a world that's constantly changing, indifferent and complicated. People attempt to look and act younger as if it is going to make a difference. Plastic surgery and an immmature attitude are the shrine and doctine of their insecurities. When they finally are unable to pretend to young and able to have sex without attachment, they start to feel the final weight of their life choices. Then they will finally accept and understand what they've really been missing. Sadly, like the hundreds of windbags that have tried to hit on me and many others out of their league, they will try to live a life for companionship and love, and without the proper skills to make it work properly, they will fail.
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    Dec 26, 2007 2:18 PM GMT
    In my relationship, I feel from time to time I loose in different things. that's what make me ask these initially.
    My bf dominate all my times, and dislike all most my friends. Besides, not many people hang out with couples, so I end up loosing all my friends.
    We have different opinions in just about all things. there were many fights initially, but later we learn to avoid fights by we avoid discussions. I feel i'm loosing my IQ to make things work.
    financially is another big thing. he does crazy investments and I dont' know how to say no to him.
    I'm sure all these will cut my life short somehow.
    So all 4 points are covered in my relationship from time to time, Surprisingly love is the only thing that holds it together. I wonder if Love is worth it all.

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    Dec 26, 2007 2:39 PM GMT
    And you still have a relationship with him why??? ... icon_eek.gif
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    Dec 26, 2007 4:26 PM GMT
    Oh. This is definitely a bargain here going on -

    so, i'd like to have all those ingreds and good shag as a bonus.

    But in this game - i see i can't, right? So, if i have to loose someth - i expect to strike a deal on giving away some of my very free lazy time and/or my wrath moments in exchange.
    (You know, that worth it: when i'm in wrath - i'm a real nano weapon - i mean, small-size but subversively powerful, with auto targeting).icon_biggrin.gif
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    Dec 26, 2007 4:45 PM GMT
    hm..ever love someone "despite"...? well, the same question is in my head for a long time and I have debate with myself over and over. If this happen to your relationship, would you give it up?