Theist vs. Atheist

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    Nov 20, 2009 9:28 PM GMT
    How does your belief system lead you to live your life?

    I don't believe in God. I believe in doing what I can to help those more needy than I am; I often feel guilty that I don't do enough. I hope future generations have as good, if not better, life than we currently do. If I see someone sad, I want to comfort that person as much as possible. It sickens me that people go hungry every day in the world.

    I am going to go on a limb here and predict that both theist, atheist, and those inbetween share similar values. We might disagree about the question "Does God exist", but we probably never the less, share many values in common. Yes there are theist that are intolerant to those with difference beliefs, and use that as an excuse to torture "non-believers" and deny rights to others. There are also atheist who think "there is no God so I will just live for my pleasure of the moment and fuck everyone else". I think both these veiwpoints are not respresentive of the people on this site though.
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    Nov 20, 2009 9:51 PM GMT
    phemt saidHow does your belief system lead you to live your life?

    I don't believe in God. I believe in doing what I can to help those more needy than I am; I often feel guilty that I don't do enough. I hope future generations have as good, if not better, life than we currently do. If I see someone sad, I want to comfort that person as much as possible. It sickens me that people go hungry every day in the world.

    I am going to go on a limb here and predict that both theist, atheist, and those inbetween share similar values. We might disagree about the question "Does God exist", but we probably never the less, share many values in common. Yes there are theist that are intolerant to those with difference beliefs, and use that as an excuse to torture "non-believers" and deny rights to others. There are also atheist who think "there is no God so I will just live for my pleasure of the moment and fuck everyone else". I think both these veiwpoints are not respresentive of the people on this site though.


    It's no secret to those who read some of my posts on here that I am a theistic person. I have and live a quiet faith that is defined openly by acts of compassion and genuine kindness toward others. Like you, I do what I can to help those in need and to comfort someone who's sad. This world has a way of running over people and it frustrates me at times that more people don't give a damn. My hope is also that we will leave this place better off for our having been here.

    Though we may respectfully disagree about the existence of God, we agree in total on the values of helping others, and probably a great many others too. I know a number of theists who are very intolerant and judgmental of others, and who use their "religion" (faith is a totally different thing) to torment and cause misery to others. I for one reject that behavior, and delight in asking them just how they can ignore the Word of God in their own lives while wrongly using it as a weapon against others. The difference between religion and faith becomes apparent at that point because their behavior is inexcusable.

    I do my best to be very kind and helpful to others every day and I don't much care what (if anything) they can do for me. I am very thankful for what I have and try to live up to that.

    Thank you for a really great topic!
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    Nov 20, 2009 10:02 PM GMT
    The OP's sentiments above are admirable. But I'm puzzled why these theological-debate threads keep popping up and why they stir up such strong feelings, usually of the I-hate-religion variety.
    First, isn't the existence/absence of a deity a question that can never be answered? Second, how is the question relevant to a fitness/social website?
    (No intent to attack or demean any of the participants in these threads, just curious why it's such a perennial topic.)
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    Nov 20, 2009 10:03 PM GMT
    phemt saidHow does your belief system lead you to live your life?

    Wonderful question that will probably lead to walls of text being posted.

    phemt said
    I don't believe in God. I believe in doing what I can to help those more needy than I am; I often feel guilty that I don't do enough. I hope future generations have as good, if not better, life than we currently do. If I see someone sad, I want to comfort that person as much as possible. It sickens me that people go hungry every day in the world.

    This is called the human condition. What is great is that any "belief system" (including a lack there of) tries to support a notion of betterment for the "other". Most fail.

    phemt said
    I am going to go on a limb here and predict that both theist, atheist, and those in between share similar values.

    We should for if there are universal values (and I am not trying to be a Kantian jackass) then they should surpass any incorporation of belief systems. The metaphysical is just that, beyond our reach and any attempt to bring it into the physical (my mainstream religions) is trying to make tangible what should not be.
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    Nov 20, 2009 10:05 PM GMT
    TexDef07 said Second, how is the question relevant to a fitness/social website?
    (No intent to attack or demean any of the participants in these threads, just curious why it's such a perennial topic.)

    Because it is an intrinsic part of identity and being gay is a social signifier of identity (even though most of us try daily to destroy that thought process). Also, spirituality (having some or not) is a part of a healthy existence. I think it fits in fine on a fitness site.
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    Nov 20, 2009 10:20 PM GMT
    TexDef07 saidThe OP's sentiments above are admirable. But I'm puzzled why these theological-debate threads keep popping up and why they stir up such strong feelings, usually of the I-hate-religion variety.
    First, isn't the existence/absence of a deity a question that can never be answered? Second, how is the question relevant to a fitness/social website?
    (No intent to attack or demean any of the participants in these threads, just curious why it's such a perennial topic.)


    I just notice how often the "Theist vs Atheist" type threads tend to turn nasty and divisive. I have taken part in such "Does God exist" discussions before. Lately though I try to limit myself to talking about social aganda of different religions/Churches. For this forum, I wanted people to reflect, at least for a moment, how much we really have in common.
    Along the line of what Pinny said Spirtuality is part of life. For many belief in God gives their lives meaning and is part of a healthy life. However, even if someone does't believe in God, one still has to come to terms with what does that mean for your own life and values. For me it means we are all alone in this universe and stresses the need for humans to take care of each other, other living things, the earth, etc.
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    Nov 21, 2009 1:58 AM GMT
    It is our common humanity that binds us together. Everything we do should reinforce that humanity.
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    May 28, 2010 7:10 PM GMT
    As an atheist, I find that this rarely impacts the life I lead normally (except I have more time to work on wednesdays and sundays). Sometimes I find myself trying to do stuff to prove atheists aren't all shit, cuz I know some crappy ones. I've tried going to church. It just didn't work out for me. In junior high, I volunteered at a nursing home every week (on my OWN accord). I'll come pick up a friend if they're in a janky situation.

    If someone is having a bad day, cheer them up. Duh. You don't need religion for that. One thing I know about religion "Treat thy neighbor as thyself" or something along those lines. I think sometimes we get too caught up in how we interpret things about religion instead of following the ideas it was founded upon.

    I used to go to church with a couple of friends pretty frequently a couple years ago. We were really good friends. Everything was cool. Eventually I stopped going, and those friends faded away as well. I hate that fact. They always tell me to come back, because that's the only time I would ever see them anymore.

    My point (i guess): Theists and atheists, we're all just people, and we let a lot of crap get tangled up in something that NONE of us will ever find the answer to here on earth. Get the fuck over it.
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    May 28, 2010 7:13 PM GMT
    comeback_kid saidAs an atheist, I find that this rarely impacts the life I lead normally (except I have more time to work on wednesdays and sundays). Sometimes I find myself trying to do stuff to prove atheists aren't all shit, cuz I know some crappy ones. I've tried going to church. It just didn't work out for me. In junior high, I volunteered at a nursing home every week (on my OWN accord). I'll come pick up a friend if they're in a janky situation.

    If someone is having a bad day, cheer them up. Duh. You don't need religion for that. One thing I know about religion "Treat thy neighbor as thyself" or something along those lines. I think sometimes we get too caught up in how we interpret things about religion instead of following the ideas it was founded upon.

    I used to go to church with a couple of friends pretty frequently a couple years ago. We were really good friends. Everything was cool. Eventually I stopped going, and those friends faded away as well. I hate that fact. They always tell me to come back, because that's the only time I would ever see them anymore.

    My point (i guess): Theists and atheists, we're all just people, and we let a lot of crap get tangled up in something that NONE of us will ever find the answer to here on earth. Get the fuck over it.


    EXACTLY! Thank you.
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    May 28, 2010 10:40 PM GMT
    I was born Roman Catholic who became an "atheist" during my teens, and became a committed Christian in 1973, when I was 20 years old.
    But after reading Richard Dawkin's book, "The God Delusion" I recalled my teenage days as an "atheist". I enclose the word in speech marks because I never truly believed that God didn't exist. Rather it was an expression of anger at the Roman Catholic Church and its "God", an extremely fickle and downright maddening character who never gave any assurance of Heaven to any Catholic person, whether clergy or laity, and threatened an eternity in Hell for even one mortal sin, and a long time in Purgatory if I died with any unconfessed venial sin. In short, it was nigh impossible for any Catholic person to enter Heaven after death.
    Thus in my teenage years I was angry at God, and the best way I could express my anger was to deny his existence. Richard Dawkins and his ilk expresses this same kind of anger towards God as I did, and such is the case of many RealJock members. The underlying issue seems to be anger, whether it takes the form of outright denial or disguised under a very intellectual and elaborate scientific alternative, ie evolution, uniformitarianism or whatever. The underlying trend seems to be judgement and condemnation with a total inability to be accepted by God for eternity in Heaven.
    Becoming a Christian was something absolutely different!
    Here, I discovered that yes, it is absolutely impossible to find my own way to God's heart, because of my sins. But God sent his Son to die on the cross and on the third day, rise again from the grave. Thus Heaven is offered as a free gift to anyone who believes (commits himself to) Christ as Saviour.
    The result is, I want to do good to others because I have eternal life and I'm already a citizen of Heaven, and NOT because I'm trying to earn eternal life by self effort, with a bit of God grace which is forfeitable, as Catholicism teaches.
    Therefore, there is a VAST DIFFERENCE between FAITH IN JESUS and RELIGION!
    Religion is a slippery road to atheism, while faith is the result of being made fit for Heaven before any good work is done.
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    May 30, 2010 2:02 PM GMT
    OK NotThatOLd, I'm here. Still feel like continuing that conversation started on another topic on the main forum?

    -Doug
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    May 30, 2010 2:13 PM GMT
    What binds you to the fact that one would be barred from Heaven in the first place because of these "sins"?

    Personally, I have no faith in organized religion and if I so choose, I would worship how I see fit.
    If a God exist, he would transend any interpretation that any man could ever imagine.

    Here is an easy definition to understand.

    God = Love.

    The end.

    I am done here.
  • BeingThePhoen...

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    May 30, 2010 3:08 PM GMT
    NotThatOld saidI was born Roman Catholic who became an "atheist" during my teens, and became a committed Christian in 1973, when I was 20 years old.
    But after reading Richard Dawkin's book, "The God Delusion" I recalled my teenage days as an "atheist". I enclose the word in speech marks because I never truly believed that God didn't exist. Rather it was an expression of anger at the Roman Catholic Church and its "God", an extremely fickle and downright maddening character who never gave any assurance of Heaven to any Catholic person, whether clergy or laity, and threatened an eternity in Hell for even one mortal sin, and a long time in Purgatory if I died with any unconfessed venial sin. In short, it was nigh impossible for any Catholic person to enter Heaven after death.
    Thus in my teenage years I was angry at God, and the best way I could express my anger was to deny his existence. Richard Dawkins and his ilk expresses this same kind of anger towards God as I did, and such is the case of many RealJock members. The underlying issue seems to be anger, whether it takes the form of outright denial or disguised under a very intellectual and elaborate scientific alternative, ie evolution, uniformitarianism or whatever. The underlying trend seems to be judgement and condemnation with a total inability to be accepted by God for eternity in Heaven.
    Becoming a Christian was something absolutely different!
    Here, I discovered that yes, it is absolutely impossible to find my own way to God's heart, because of my sins. But God sent his Son to die on the cross and on the third day, rise again from the grave. Thus Heaven is offered as a free gift to anyone who believes (commits himself to) Christ as Saviour.
    The result is, I want to do good to others because I have eternal life and I'm already a citizen of Heaven, and NOT because I'm trying to earn eternal life by self effort, with a bit of God grace which is forfeitable, as Catholicism teaches.
    Therefore, there is a VAST DIFFERENCE between FAITH IN JESUS and RELIGION!
    Religion is a slippery road to atheism, while faith is the result of being made fit for Heaven before any good work is done.

    It is so incredibly easy for you to equate atheism to anger with God, because that was your experience, but to say that this is the experience of most others is a fallacy. Though I don't consider myself an Atheist, I strongly disagree with the concept of the Christian God, or any other God linked to any known religion. That is not to say, however, that I beleive in the possibility of a sort of "Creator God or Entity."

    That being said, our experience is similar, substituting Roman Catholic with Southern Baptist. The only thing is that I don't contempt in my heart for any God. The religion, perhaps, but certainly not the God. My fact that I don't believe in "God" stems from the fact that I actually read the Bible for myself. My anger with my former religion prompted me actually read the Bible for myself, instead of listening to what the church said about God. This was my attempt to find the real God, but what I found was a poorly written book with the most polt holes in the history of literacy. And still, learning that this one God was not real, didn't turn me off to the possibility of the existance of a god existing.

    If a God wanted to be worshipped, there would never be a question about it!
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    May 30, 2010 3:16 PM GMT
    I always tell people that I have formed my own religion and I have appointed myself High Priest of same. The world is my church and living life is my sacrament. If you want to be an atheist then be my guest. I just don't know how anyone can go through life and not realize that all this had to come from somewhere, or someone, or some being. How can you witness the birth of a child and not know that there is a higher power? How can you view a breathtaking sunset and think that the only force behind it is science and nothing else?

    If you want proof that there is a higher power that holds all things together then all you have to do is look around you. Everything is made up of molecules, atoms, electrons, etc. If you pick up a pen and drop it on the floor, the molecules and atoms which make the pen a pen do not separate and splash across the floor. The pen stays as it is. Even Albert Einstein observed this. If you are unwilling to accept that there is a divine force at work, then you are choosing to discount your own divinity.
  • BeingThePhoen...

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    May 30, 2010 3:48 PM GMT
    lawguy920 saidI always tell people that I have formed my own religion and I have appointed myself High Priest of same. The world is my church and living life is my sacrament. If you want to be an atheist then be my guest. I just don't know how anyone can go through life and not realize that all this had to come from somewhere, or someone, or some being. How can you witness the birth of a child and not know that there is a higher power? How can you view a breathtaking sunset and think that the only force behind it is science and nothing else?

    If you want proof that there is a higher power that holds all things together then all you have to do is look around you. Everything is made up of molecules, atoms, electrons, etc. If you pick up a pen and drop it on the floor, the molecules and atoms which make the pen a pen do not separate and splash across the floor. The pen stays as it is. Even Albert Einstein observed this. If you are unwilling to accept that there is a divine force at work, then you are choosing to discount your own divinity.

    If that is your belief, then more power to you, but I don't necessarily subscribe to that vuepoint, either. In my opinion, you are thinking strictly in three dimensional terms. Who isn't to say that Science isn't the God you seek? Who is to say that God isn't the Sciecne you seek? Who is to say that we can even conceive of the real truth of existance.
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    May 30, 2010 10:29 PM GMT
    meninlove said OK NotThatOLd, I'm here. Still feel like continuing that conversation started on another topic on the main forum?

    -Doug

    Hi,
    I have just read your email sent to me personally.
    In it I see your point of view.

    But yes, feel free to discuss.

    But perhaps for Musclequest's sake, the discussion, which I would like it to be serious enough, should take place here in the Spiritual section of the Forums.
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    May 30, 2010 10:42 PM GMT
    God, please save me from your followers. Amen.
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    May 30, 2010 11:49 PM GMT
    lawguy920 saidI always tell people that I have formed my own religion and I have appointed myself High Priest of same. The world is my church and living life is my sacrament. If you want to be an atheist then be my guest. I just don't know how anyone can go through life and not realize that all this had to come from somewhere, or someone, or some being. How can you witness the birth of a child and not know that there is a higher power? How can you view a breathtaking sunset and think that the only force behind it is science and nothing else?

    If you want proof that there is a higher power that holds all things together then all you have to do is look around you. Everything is made up of molecules, atoms, electrons, etc. If you pick up a pen and drop it on the floor, the molecules and atoms which make the pen a pen do not separate and splash across the floor. The pen stays as it is. Even Albert Einstein observed this. If you are unwilling to accept that there is a divine force at work, then you are choosing to discount your own divinity.


    I'm a tad confused. I CAN look to a science as my higher power. Science is beautiful, such as a sunset or birth. Or the reaction of a tungsten filament inside of liquid nitrogen. Ever seen that? Beautiful. I'll post pictures. But either way, those are all still a science to me. True, all this shit around us comes from somewhere.But I think it's easy for humanity to say, "This guy did all this stuff, all hail him." It's basic human instinct to want something to believe in. To want something stable. That's all I see religion as, a constant that people can rely on through tough times.

    But as to there being the higher power and whatnot, that's where my issue begins. I think it's would be naive to assume we know all the secrets to this universe. I want to discover the secrets of this world myself, not have some guy stand up in front of me and tell me his view on all this stuff and blindly follow. There's some things in this world that are simply beyond our comprehension, and maybe it was meant to be that way. And maybe some guy DID make things to be beyond our comprehension and blah blah blah or maybe some guy didn't. We don't know. End of story.
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    May 30, 2010 11:58 PM GMT
    I stopped believing in 'God' when i discovered the hypocrisy of monotheism. I stopped being an atheist when i discovered the limitations of belief all together. Now I know that 'God' as we know, does not exist when i discovered that all that I know of God comes from me. therefore 'I' am the limitation of God. A mind that only knows measure, can never know the immeasurable. Only a mind that is sacred can percieve what is sacred.

    -Santos
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    May 31, 2010 12:03 AM GMT
    SantosMadrid saidI stopped believing in 'God' when i discovered the hypocrisy of monotheism. I stopped being an atheist when i discovered the limitations of belief all together. Now I know that 'God' as we know, does not exist when i discovered that all that I know of God comes from me. therefore 'I' am the limitation of God. A mind that only knows measure, can never know the immeasurable. Only a mind that is sacred can percieve what is sacred.

    -Santos


    Deep man, Deep.

    I like how you quoted yourself, ye faithful philosopher. icon_smile.gif
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    May 31, 2010 12:25 AM GMT
    NotThatOld said
    meninlove said OK NotThatOLd, I'm here. Still feel like continuing that conversation started on another topic on the main forum?

    -Doug

    Hi,
    I have just read your email sent to me personally.
    In it I see your point of view.

    But yes, feel free to discuss.

    But perhaps for Musclequest's sake, the discussion, which I would like it to be serious enough, should take place here in the Spiritual section of the Forums.


    Well NotThatOld, I did say we should talk here and NOT that topic on the main forum.

    To start, Bill is athiest and I am theist. Interesting married LTR, eh? We have a deep and abiding respect for each other, and think in an interesting synchronicity when it comes to subjects like this.

    The problem with many believers in god is that they take an ancient, long long ago message of 'spread the word' and like a broken record, keep spreading it. This is much like a commercial for the same thing every 5 minutes on television. Understandably, people turn off the TV altogether, no matter what possible educational or enlightening program may be on.

    As we stated in that other topic, gay people have been marinated, basted, stewed and drowned it to the point of toxicity. You'd be hard pressed to find any person in the western world that hasn't had christ shoved in their face relentlessly.
    To quote from a book that is comprised of people saying that other people said christ said this or that (and being aware that it was word of mouth for over a hundred, and often hundreds of years, before making it into text) is risky business when the quoter takes the messages and stories literally and tells others to.

    This is a GAY place, where men also flee to for solace, freedom from the heavy-handed and completely wrong judgment of them as sinners, and for assistance when that heavy-handedness breaks them and has them considering suicide. I know of a few gay men that tried to live your Bi life, but being gay, couldn't do it without self loathing, the unhappiness of their wives and their resulting depression, the guilt over causing such problems, and ended up committing suicide. As we said to barefootdude, being gay or straight is not a CHOICE. Only being Bi gives you those kinds of options.

    This is why in that other topic I (Doug) said this

    "Quite frankly, following the mindset of you and a couple of others, the only ones 'sinning' in that literalist way with homosexuality would be religious Bis who unlike gays or straights can CHOOSE".


    This makes you and barefootdude an appalling example for a gay person, because you're not. Bis and gays are very different things.
    Both are to be valued and treasured. We have many many many Bi friends. Some are pretty angry right now and have told us that you and barefootdude do not represent Bi people of faith.



    -us
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    May 31, 2010 4:05 PM GMT
    To Bill & Doug, Meninlove.

    Your post above also appeared in the email you sent direct to me, except that here anybody can read it. That's fine by me, as you expressed your opinion reasonably well and as for me, I have nothing to hide or to be ashamed of.

    First, you differentiate between gay, straight and bi. Whether that is hair-splitting or not is a matter of opinion. But I'm aware that in a straight society, I could be walking along the street with my wife and our three daughters and a male passerby grabs my attention and I gaze at him for a moment. To him, my family are invisible and the passerby will mentally label me as gay (or queer, ducky, pervert whatever). Next day while walking alone, this same moron, now with his mates, lets out a shrill wolf whistle followed by guffaws. To them, I'm the queer sod. If I was to turn around, they would run as if I carried a fatal plague.
    Am I making this up? No! This sort of scenario has happened in my life MANY TIMES. In fact, one employee was dismissed from his job for whistling at me, and at the same time was watched by the duty manager though a surveillance camera the employee forgot was there.
    So the point I'm getting across is that "bi" or bisexual is a term not recognised by straights as a whole, but a word used by gays to reason why some of them marry and have children.
    And in your case, you mention "many Bi friends, some are very angry (at me) right now...
    Are these Bis all on RJ? Or do they gather in to your home to read the posts on your computer?

    As for the Bible, it is obvious that I am a "fundie" or fundamentalist, while you may label yourself as a liberal Christian.
    But I have read and studied the Bible for more than 37 years. Back then the majority of RJ members were nothing more than a twinkle in their old man's eye!
    One of the strongest arguments on the veracity and authenticity of the Bible is fulfilled prophecy, especially Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22. In the latter, the author makes some astonishing predictions concerning the Crucifixion of Christ, an event which took place a thousand years later. Now you could argue that the Gospel writers made the event (Jesus' death) to look as if it fulfilled prophecy by adding details about the garment divided into four parts and the casting of lots for his vesture.
    But to say or write such a thing would be an insult to my intelligence as well of all other believing scholars, some held or are holding PhD degrees. Furthermore, your opinion and those of most of RJ members would be insulting to the millions of martyrs who willingly gave their lives rather than deny the truthfulness of the Bible, many were burnt alive at the stake because of their conviction that the Bible is true.
    The Bible itself says that it's inspired by God (2 Timothy 3:16). Now if the Gospel writers had fabricated their stories to make them look like fulfilled prophecy, then I would agree fully that God is a deceitful, wicked liar, trickster and a fraud, and all his followers are to be the most pitied of all deceived victims.
    No, my belief and commitment to Scripture is not because I'm a deluded fool! Just the opposite, because my intelligence is high enough not only to see the veracity of Scripture, but to believe in them too.
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    May 31, 2010 5:44 PM GMT
    NotThatOld saidTo Bill & Doug, Meninlove.

    Your post above also appeared in the email you sent direct to me, except that here anybody can read it. That's fine by me, as you expressed your opinion reasonably well and as for me, I have nothing to hide or to be ashamed of.

    First, you differentiate between gay, straight and bi. Whether that is hair-splitting or not is a matter of opinion."

    No, it isn't.


    "But I'm aware that in a straight society, I could be walking along the street with my wife and our three daughters and a male passerby grabs my attention and I gaze at him for a moment. To him, my family are invisible and the passerby will mentally label me as gay (or queer, ducky, pervert whatever). Next day while walking alone, this same moron, now with his mates, lets out a shrill wolf whistle followed by guffaws. To them, I'm the queer sod. If I was to turn around, they would run as if I carried a fatal plague.
    Am I making this up? No! This sort of scenario has happened in my life MANY TIMES. In fact, one employee was dismissed from his job for whistling at me, and at the same time was watched by the duty manager though a surveillance camera the employee forgot was there.
    So the point I'm getting across is that "bi" or bisexual is a term not recognised by straights as a whole, but a word used by gays to reason why some of them marry and have children.

    Nope. Not true. We know straights from all walks of life that would laugh at that.

    "And in your case, you mention "many Bi friends, some are very angry (at me) right now...
    Are these Bis all on RJ? Or do they gather in to your home to read the posts on your computer?"

    D'oh, they have their own PCs and if we ask for opinions which is very easy with group emails, they read posts here without logging in. And yes, some are on RJ as members. Does it matter?

    "As for the Bible, it is obvious that I am a "fundie" or fundamentalist, while you may label yourself as a liberal Christian.
    But I have read and studied the Bible for more than 37 years."
    ...and some people devote themselves just as long to a musical instrument and still sound mechanical.


    " Back then the majority of RJ members were nothing more than a twinkle in their old man's eye!
    One of the strongest arguments on the veracity and authenticity of the Bible is fulfilled prophecy, especially Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22. In the latter, the author makes some astonishing predictions concerning the Crucifixion of Christ, an event which took place a thousand years later. Now you could argue that the Gospel writers made the event (Jesus' death) to look as if it fulfilled prophecy by adding details about the garment divided into four parts and the casting of lots for his vesture.
    But to say or write such a thing would be an insult to my intelligence as well of all other believing scholars, some held or are holding PhD degrees. "

    Then consider yourself insulted by the Patriarchal Fathers of the tenth century. Jerome is guilty as well. That bible's accuracy was in doubt long before it was broken up into apocryphas. Do we need to give you lessons in the bible's history. 37 years hopefully had you studying about the book and how what's inside it got there.

    "Furthermore, your opinion and those of most of RJ members would be insulting to the millions of martyrs who willingly gave their lives rather than deny the truthfulness of the Bible, many were burnt alive at the stake because of their conviction that the Bible is true."

    ...while the believers were busily not suffering witches to live and burning them, or immersing them in water. If they floated, they were witches and burnt, if they drowned they weren't witches after all, and everyone of the faith could sigh in relief.

    "The Bible itself says that it's inspired by God (2 Timothy 3:16).


    And there you have it. Inspiration isn't fact, or a lot of inspired sci-fi and fantasy writers writings would be fact.

    While you're free to believe in whatever you like FOR YOURSELF, this is the wrong place to conduct your missionary work. As well, you skirt issues of life and death. Take a look at the topics about suicide and guys cutting themselves and depression and take some culpability.

    Again, you're Bi so you can choose, so from a fundie perspective, you sin. Tell us what Paul said about lust without action. He said it was the same as adultery. So what are you doing here?






  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    May 31, 2010 11:12 PM GMT
    I don't know how much you two (meninlove) wish to continue with the discussion. But I ask you to bear with me on some points you have raised.

    1. Jerome and the Apocrypha.
    The Apocrypha are additional books that were written about the time the Bible was written or a few centuries afterward. These books are not considered as part of the Bible by us (Fundamental Protestants), but they do appear in Roman Catholic Bibles. Some of the Apocrypha are of the Old Testament, for example, I and II Maccabees, two books which tell the story of the Jews under the Greek Empire and their tale of how they cast off the tyranny of the Greek rulers. They make interesting reading, but the Jews at that time did not consider them as inspired by God, and did not include them as part of their canon.
    New testament apocrypha such as the Gospel of Thomas were circulated along with the New Testament canon, but Christian believers back then did not accept them as inspired, nor included them in the canon. Jerome, who translated the Latin Vulgate Bible, did not believe the apocrypha as inspired either, and said so. Augustine, the Bishop of Hippo, also denied that the apocrypha were inspired, but he favoured publishing them.
    It was Pope Eugenius IV during the Council of Florence in 1442 who issued a decree that the Apocrypha were inspired by God and should be included in the Bible canon.

    2.The burning of witches
    Yes, I fully agree with you that this was a vile, wicked practice carried out by the Roman Catholic Church during the Dark Ages. But let us put things into perspective.
    The entire laity (Non-clerical Catholics, the masses) had absolutely no access to the Bible, and most clerics were totally ignorant of the Bible back then. The Scriptures were confined to the Vatican, and only a few doctors authorised by the current Pope were allowed access and they alone dished out their interpretation, and only limited to what the Pope and Cardinals allowed. In other words, the average Roman Catholic only heard what the top notches in the Vatican wanted them to hear. Thus such false teaching such as Penance, Confession to the Priest, indulgences, the Virgin Mary as Mediatrix, public executions of witches, the Inquisition, salvation by works, Purgatory, the transubstantiation of Christ, the unbloody sacrifice of the Mass, infant baptism and other falsehoods were all concocted by the Catholic Church throughout the early centuries in order to keep the public in line, and not to lose members whose monetary giving, especially over indulgences, kept their coffers full. When the Reformation came about and the Bible came about, much of all these falsehoods were swept away.

    3. Why am I here at RJ website?
    Because I too am attracted by some men. And yes, you could say that I'm a missionary.
    Believing in Jesus as Savior makes us fit for Heaven, but while we are in our mortal bodies, we are still subjected to temptation. It is true that he who looks at a woman (or man) lustfully commits adultery in his heart. Paul, in Romans 7 had a problem with covetousness, which he explains that only faith in Jesus will set him free from his sin.
    We are saved, but we are not perfect until after death. But while we are alive here, we learn how to overcome temptation. It's called "Discipleship" and it's lifelong. Yes, I can lust after another person. But I have a choice. Either say no to the temptation or indulge in it. Learning to say no is what Christian living is about.

  • BlackBeltGuy

    Posts: 2609

    May 31, 2010 11:17 PM GMT
    TigerTim saidIt is our common humanity that binds us together. Everything we do should reinforce that humanity.


    tigertim you are correct