CLIMATE CHANGE: The Catastrophic Event

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 11, 2009 12:18 AM GMT
    To further understand this debacle I am going to play Devil's Advocate

    Assuming that we are on a destructive path, my question to RJers is

    How much are you willing to give up to save the planet?

    How much more are you willing to pay in electricity costs, groceries, and other consumer cyclicals to offset your carbon footprint?

    Remember when everybody was bitching about high energy costs, aka price of gas?

    What would a Real Jocker do? WWRJd
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    Dec 11, 2009 12:30 AM GMT
    OK, we'll play...how much would business be willing to do? For example, many jobs can now telecommute but many businesses won't allow it.

    Charging more for electricity will only curb the poor's use of it. We're up against Big Oil here as well, you guys.
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    Dec 11, 2009 12:37 AM GMT
    sexylatinboi said
    How much more are you willing to pay in electricity costs, groceries, and other consumer cyclicals to offset your carbon footprint?

    Remember when everybody was bitching about high energy costs, aka price of gas?


    Ach. You think that the high gas prices are caused by global warming advocates? Try learning more about supply & demand before shifting the blame on the poor scientists. I think the real questions are:

    "How much of all these undeserved luxuries are you willing to give up?"

    "How lazy are you?"

    "How much do you love the status quo of multinational multibillion companies controlling your lives with oil prices?"

    You don't even realize that alternative energy is CHEAPER than fossil fuels. But whatever, carry on. Bitch more when the oil runs out and blame it again on researchers because you seem to think they have magical powers that make gas expensive by simply saying burning gas is dangerous.
  • styrgan

    Posts: 2017

    Dec 11, 2009 1:49 AM GMT
    I agree with Sedative that it's a false choice, but I think your choice of words - "saving that planet" - is interesting.

    Think about the lack of harmony (rogue states, nuclear proliferation, for starters) in this world that already exists and consider what would happen if the Jet Stream was disrupted and Europe and North America's weather patterns were radically altered, if major disruptions in the food supply became commonplace, if the ten percent of the world's population that lives 10 meters above sea level were forced to relocate, if previously fertile regions of the planet became stricken with drought, and if there was an exponential increase in extreme weather anomalies.

    If we fail to save or "destroy" the world we currently have and know, it is likely that we will destroy ourselves in the process. Standard of living only matters if you're actually alive... and even if you are, you're going to spend so much money detoxing the planet, that it would have been cheaper just to be proactive and prevent any problems in the first place.
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    Dec 11, 2009 1:56 AM GMT
    Where did you get that alternative energy is cheaper than fossil fuels.

    My friend, it is expensive since it is new technologically.

    If it was economically feasible companies would already be using it. The government has to subsidize all alternative forms of energy.

    And I am not a Pro-CEO person, but why is business so evil. It provides a service you want or else it wouldn't exist. I believe in unions and protecting the consumer, but come-on businesses are not going to spend money they don't have to. Sorry but in some jobs you have to interact with clients, business partners, and future contract negotiators. Human contact is the most powerful form of persuasion.

    I am a person that feels that creating a carbon tax would hurt the poor. I believe that if you want to defeat big oil you have to build the infrastructure to lower gas consumption first. You just can't tax the hell out of people when they have no other alternative to their lifestyle. Sorry but mass transit in the United States is not pleasant and very infrequent.

    And yes a carbon tax would increase the price of everything. Have you ever been to London. icon_eek.gif

    I mean food doesn't come in solar powered golf-carts. It comes in big gas guzzling tractor trailers lol.
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    Dec 11, 2009 2:52 AM GMT
    sexylatinboi saidWhere did you get that alternative energy is cheaper than fossil fuels.

    My friend, it is expensive since it is new technologically.

    If it was economically feasible companies would already be using it. The government has to subsidize all alternative forms of energy.

    And I am not a Pro-CEO person, but why is business so evil. It provides a service you want or else it wouldn't exist. I believe in unions and protecting the consumer, but come-on businesses are not going to spend money they don't have to. Sorry but in some jobs you have to interact with clients, business partners, and future contract negotiators. Human contact is the most powerful form of persuasion.

    I am a person that feels that creating a carbon tax would hurt the poor. I believe that if you want to defeat big oil you have to build the infrastructure to lower gas consumption first. You just can't tax the hell out of people when they have no other alternative to their lifestyle. Sorry but mass transit in the United States is not pleasant and very infrequent.

    And yes a carbon tax would increase the price of everything. Have you ever been to London. icon_eek.gif

    I mean food doesn't come in solar powered golf-carts. It comes in big gas guzzling tractor trailers lol.


    First off, yes some alternative forms of energy are cheaper. But still in R&D stage to make them as efficient as possible. Alternative energy in the means of wind turbines and photovoltaics are very expensive, but those aren't the only options.

    We can look at geothermal heating and cooling of buildings. It may have a higher initial cost, but in the long run, it is much cheaper.

    Many different types of biomass are cheaper than fossil fuels. But once again, its newly emerging and still in R&D.

    Another form of energy is called Plasma gasification. Where MSW (municipal solid waste) is burned in the absence of oxygen to produce a very clean syn-gas. This technology is fairly new, but produces a lot of electricity! Still in R&D stages as well though.

    The options are totally there, but USA and Canada are just way behind the times with everything.

    And when you say the government has to subsidize all forms of alternative energy, you are right, but the governments also subsidize EVERYTHING else. From fossil fuels that we use, to the food that we eat.

    I could honestly debate about this topic forever because it's what I am currently studying in school. So bring on the arguments!

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 11, 2009 3:00 AM GMT
    If global warming was real why has it gotten so cold the past few months?! HUH??!?! icon_twisted.gif
  • styrgan

    Posts: 2017

    Dec 11, 2009 3:03 AM GMT
    sexylatinboi said

    I am a person that feels that creating a carbon tax would hurt the poor. I believe that if you want to defeat big oil you have to build the infrastructure to lower gas consumption first. You just can't tax the hell out of people when they have no other alternative to their lifestyle. Sorry but mass transit in the United States is not pleasant and very infrequent.

    And yes a carbon tax would increase the price of everything.



    I think you're missing the point of a carbon tax. The whole idea is to create incentives for companies and individuals to move towards more environmentally-viable solutions and to be responsible citizens. It wouldn't accomplish those goals if it didn't make business as usual less cost-effective.

    There are "alternatives" to lifestyle choices though in the sense that we should be doing less with more. How many Americans still wash their cars by hand or buy bottled water? How many offices keep computers, lights, and equipment running 24 hours a day? If we created taxes or fines for irresponsible behaviors, people would think twice before being irresponsible.
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    Dec 11, 2009 3:07 AM GMT
    wushu18t,

    well, lol, it doesn't work that way. The polar caps are melting, weather patterns become exaggerated with colder winters in some places, warmer in others, cooler summers in some places and real scorchers i others: all of it happening where they didn't happen before.


    Use google, that should help you; it can take pages and pages of text on RJ to explain it all.
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    Dec 11, 2009 4:37 AM GMT
    meninlove said wushu18t,

    well, lol, it doesn't work that way. The polar caps are melting, weather patterns become exaggerated with colder winters in some places, warmer in others, cooler summers in some places and real scorchers i others: all of it happening where they didn't happen before.


    Use google, that should help you; it can take pages and pages of text on RJ to explain it all.


    DING DING DING!

    Thank you, meninlove.

    Comments like wushu's only prove how ignorant the general populace is on this topic. Perhaps a more 'common' term should be used such as Polar Warming.
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    Dec 11, 2009 5:36 AM GMT
    if the world population, that's the population that can afford to, would simply be careful , doing what they can to minimize their impact on Nature the changes would be staggering.
    If we stopped over consuming, companies would make products that "LAST" , instead of fucking junk made to be replaced asap just so we have a new toy .

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    Dec 11, 2009 5:52 AM GMT
    sexylatinboi saidWhere did you get that alternative energy is cheaper than fossil fuels.

    My friend, it is expensive since it is new technologically.

    If it was economically feasible companies would already be using it. The government has to subsidize all alternative forms of energy.

    And I am not a Pro-CEO person, but why is business so evil. It provides a service you want or else it wouldn't exist. I believe in unions and protecting the consumer, but come-on businesses are not going to spend money they don't have to. Sorry but in some jobs you have to interact with clients, business partners, and future contract negotiators. Human contact is the most powerful form of persuasion.

    I am a person that feels that creating a carbon tax would hurt the poor. I believe that if you want to defeat big oil you have to build the infrastructure to lower gas consumption first. You just can't tax the hell out of people when they have no other alternative to their lifestyle. Sorry but mass transit in the United States is not pleasant and very infrequent.

    And yes a carbon tax would increase the price of everything. Have you ever been to London. icon_eek.gif

    I mean food doesn't come in solar powered golf-carts. It comes in big gas guzzling tractor trailers lol.


    Your point?

    You're approaching it from the wrong point of view. All your reasons on why global warming must be wrong have so far been 'It's too hard to switch to a new energy source', 'oil prices are rising', 'carbon taxes will hurt the poor' as if that has actually anything to do with it.

    In a few more years, rising sea levels, heat waves, more and more typhoons, cold waves, the disruption of the gulf stream (which will actually make east coast N.America and Europe colder rather than warmer, but still is a side effect of the polar caps melting), all that will do far more damage to the poor and developing nations. Are you really looking out for the poor even?

    3rd world island countries like ours will be the worst hit when we start feeling the repercussions of all the shit we've thrown at the atmosphere. Already the sea is slowly reclaiming our coastlines. If it continues, billions of people will have nowhere to go as the sea engulfs their lands. And the worst thing is it's not even our fucking fault. Industrialized nations don't give a shit, because they're not the ones who'll have farmlands drowned, they have air conditioners, they've raped our natural resources enough anyway to keep them in comfort for decades yet. And yet they keep complaining about prices when they're actually talking about the prices of luxury goods. I mean, you still get to eat 3 times a day don't you? So what if caviar costs 3x as much in London?

    Food doesn't come in solar powered golf carts but it could. Green farming is already a big thing in a lot of countries. Not to mention, motorized farming which is more like a food factory than anything else is unique to big nations anyway. But then again, considering the appetites of americans for Big Macs, not surprising...

    Why is big business evil? Ask again why the Middle East is so fucked up. The Gulf War and the Iraq War. The reason why first world countries turn a blind eye to the human rights abuses in middle eastern kingdoms. Oil. The last precious drops of a dying land are fought over just to keep the mechanized armies going. War to fuel more war, interesting eh?

    I applaud some oil companies who are already looking for alternative sources of energy. But a good deal of why it's still not working is the reluctance of the government to support such research and the sheer laziness of people themselves to try something new. They'd rather keep people reliant on oil. And why?

    This rather misguided attempt to garner sympathy for not giving a fuck about CO2 is pathetic. Why not just say it?

    "I can't be bothered to care, so here I'll make up reasons like the poor will suffer or some shit so I can still feel good about myself when I drive a smoke belching humvee to work everyday"
  • LifeByTheHorn

    Posts: 255

    Dec 11, 2009 6:37 AM GMT
    The thing that most people don't get is;....scientifically the cycle of the natural global warming is due! This happens every 10.000 years or so! Earth has cycles of ice age and simply tropical age. We are in between now in the gray area!

    In tropical ages the fringes of the earth's continental mass had been flooded and the equator tropical zone had been considerably widened & in the ice ages the opposite comes to reality! Carbon emissions do accelarate this, but just that!!! Nothing would stop earth's cycles! Even there could have been no industrial revolution world wide in 1800's up to this day, still would not matter!

    We have to utilize & spread green technologies and STOP USING PUTRID DEAD ANIMAL & PLANT JUICES, like petroleum or hardened up ones, like coal etc, for killing the earth's living fauna and flora! We are mass murderers!

    Hopefully all these big industrial cities get flooded soon! Earth will not listen the little cries of pathetic humans!

    I hereby welcome the NEW TROPICAL AGE!
  • maverik

    Posts: 47

    Dec 11, 2009 10:31 AM GMT
    I know that I'm a creature of habit and as lazy as the next person. Well, that's not quite true. My next door neighbor is fit, but lazy as fuck. He does all his shopping online. Yesterday a single pack of two toilet rolls showed up. And we have two great supermarkets right across the street...

    I like your question. I take it take as meaning when would I act irrespective of how climate change is caused. You see, one way or the other, being human, I'd like to think that I would have some effect on nature. I therefore totally hope its not to late to dampen the worst of the coming climate extremes.

    So having thought about it, I recon I would change my evil ways if/when prices double. Don't get me wrong, this is not something that I want to happen. Despite increasing levels of guilt, I'm physcially comfy with my insanely unsustainable lifestyle. We need to wack federal tax on energy now right across the board. I need a $10 gas wakeup call before I telework, recycle and start living like a Scandinavian.

  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Dec 11, 2009 8:05 PM GMT
    The question really isn't how much are you willing to DO

    Because whether we like it or not the damge has been done
    You buying an electric car or plugging in a flourescent lightbulb ain't gonna cut it
    The Ice caps are melting and most scientists are saying that there will be a foot per year increase in the world's oceans
    that means that places like Florida here will be mostly underwater within a Lifetime

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    Dec 11, 2009 8:48 PM GMT
    GwgTrunks said
    meninlove said wushu18t,

    well, lol, it doesn't work that way...


    DING DING DING!

    Thank you, meninlove.

    Comments like wushu's only prove how ignorant the general populace is on this topic...


    Ok, this is a serious situation when someone can't make a joke about winter. I thought it was funny anyway.

  • LifeByTheHorn

    Posts: 255

    Dec 11, 2009 9:08 PM GMT
    Florida, the flat sandy state is literally has been swallowed by the ocean many times, which is one of the many places on this planet that has the traces of past Ice Ages & the Tropical Ages. That's why there's no real substantial accumulation of soil here! You find coral remains or the skeletons of aquatic animals all over Florida, even above the sand including the middle part of the state, which is far from the ocean! This happened so many times in the past ! It is pollution that we have to take care of !!! Nobody can reverse the cycle of the earth!!! The ego of humanity is over-swollen & ridiculous, they think they could have stopped the global warming!
  • shirty

    Posts: 290

    Dec 11, 2009 9:17 PM GMT
    LifeByTheHorn saidFlorida, the flat sandy state is literally has been swallowed by the ocean many times, which is one of the many places on this planet that has the traces of past Ice Ages & the Tropical Ages. That's why there's no real substantial accumulation of soil here! You find coral remains or the skeletons of aquatic animals all over Florida, even above the sand including the middle part of the state, which is far from the ocean! This happened so many times in the past ! It is pollution that we have to take care of !!! Nobody can reverse the cycle of the earth!!! The ego of humanity is over-swollen & ridiculous, they think they could have stopped the global warming!


    I agree - the climate change thing is getting out of hand. We can't stop the earth from changing, it is in a constant state of flux. Sometimes the earth will be warmer, sometimes it will be colder.

    The important thing is to at least improve the health of the planet and its inhabitants. Pollution and toxins cause all kinds of problems like diseases we can't cure. The climate change topic is a distraction from the real issue.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 11, 2009 9:25 PM GMT
    It doesn't take doomsday theories, saving the planet and climate change research to understand that poisoning our air and water is not good for us or future generations. What about those floating patches of garbage the size of Texas that are leaching toxins into the ocean and killing marine life?

    I would not be willing to pay more for energy that is produced from fossil fuels and other dirty technologies. I would be wiling to pay more for new technology and cleaner energy sources that aren't dependent on foreign sources........provided it was part of a comprehensive plan. And as long as corporations and wealthy individuals paid their fair share too.

    I'm also in favor of a consumption tax. I'm always irritated when I see advertisments and public service ads that tell the regular guy to turn off his air conditioner and save energy. I picture air conditioners going full blast in wealthy people's homes and corporate offices even if nobody is in them.

  • LifeByTheHorn

    Posts: 255

    Dec 11, 2009 9:37 PM GMT
    shirty said
    LifeByTheHorn saidFlorida, the flat sandy state is literally has been swallowed by the ocean many times, which is one of the many places on this planet that has the traces of past Ice Ages & the Tropical Ages. That's why there's no real substantial accumulation of soil here! You find coral remains or the skeletons of aquatic animals all over Florida, even above the sand including the middle part of the state, which is far from the ocean! This happened so many times in the past ! It is pollution that we have to take care of !!! Nobody can reverse the cycle of the earth!!! The ego of humanity is over-swollen & ridiculous, they think they could have stopped the global warming!


    I agree - the climate change thing is getting out of hand. We can't stop the earth from changing, it is in a constant state of flux. Sometimes the earth will be warmer, sometimes it will be colder.

    The important thing is to at least improve the health of the planet and its inhabitants. Pollution and toxins cause all kinds of problems like diseases we can't cure. The climate change topic is a distraction from the real issue.


    Exactly, the earth has always been in a constant state of transfrormation, the climate, the tectonic plates were always on the move. Nothing stagnant in the universe, including this little, blue, green, brown planet !

    It is funny that how people are scared of global warming, especially the ones living in the coastal towns. Being their interests at stake make them talk about global warming & only this motivation make them give numerous conferences, seminars, ads etc!!! icon_lol.gif

    When it comes to acid rains that kill many forests, deforestation, extinction of many species through out the centuries by homo sapiens and constant pollution of the lakes, rivers, soils, oceans are not enough to motivate this miserable human kind, as a whole. icon_eek.gificon_lol.gif

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    Dec 11, 2009 9:50 PM GMT
    lol, yes, there have been warming and cooling in the Earth's past, but not at this accelerated speed. Good points about pollution and its myriad effects.

    A few years ago, in one of my tales, I wrote this:


    "Over There, in the world as Men knew it, an illness was progressively and subtly unfolding itself, unlike any seen in the planet’s long, long history. Dreadful, complicated, the environment that made the world liveable was coming apart. Manufactured chemicals had found their way into the very cells of all that lived. The sky had developed holes in the protective envelope that stopped dangerous radiations from reaching the delicate stuff of life. Right down to the atomic, those tiny orbiting bits that made up the fabric of existence, there was an encroaching corruption.
    It affected Man in more than just physical aspects. Emotional balances were being knocked out of kilter. Anxiety and denial warred with each other in the human heart. Depression over the unspoken knowledge that the world was, after all, finite, weighted the aspirations of the human soul like heavy stones.
    As always, humanity had science and religious faith to mitigate these effects, but both were starting to fail in keeping Man optimistic. Depressed, sad, hopeless and resigned to a much believed in apocalyptic future, humanity accelerated the degradation of the world by vast consumption of the very things that needed to be spared. Doing so seemed to alleviate feelings of concern and foreboding with a temporary happiness that seemed all the more sweeter for its fleeting warmth. The waste from this consumption found its way into the geological makeup of the world. Areas that were uncorrupted, unpolluted were now scarce and isolated pockets. Weather patterns had intensified. Great deserts were born, and conversely, incursions of the oceans into and over the lands of Men occurred. Storms of hitherto un-experienced proportions caused massive destruction. Large numbers of the displaced became refugees in their own countries. Whole species of animals were dying out.

    Balances had been lost, and the world’s natural self, plant life, animal life, insect life and the lives of the microscopic began to invade each others’ territories, seeking survival. Existence was a slow and creeping poison, as pervasive as the air that was beginning to kill those that depended on it for life.
    Canisters of the invisible death that Man had eventually harnessed to produce the electrical power so absolutely necessary had been tossed into the oceans and were beginning to disintegrate, releasing lethal emanations that would last eons as they dispersed. "

    -from A Ribbon Of Beauty copyright 2008

    -Doug
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    Dec 11, 2009 10:08 PM GMT
    Yes man has left a footprint on this earth. But the earth has been forming and storming for how long now? And is still in this very long process, that seems to have no end; unless it is like life, where you are born getting old and dying.

    Sorry but I take very little notice of theses Global Warming "fanatics".
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    Dec 11, 2009 10:13 PM GMT


    1. It'd be fine to not have a revolution and still keep the planet alive. The way most Western Countries have responded is good enough. The US just passed a new act (You can read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Clean_Energy_and_Security_Act) and if the rest of the world would accept the same policies then there wouldn't be a catastrophic event.

    The problem is China and India. I wonder if we will ever get them to cooperate. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124789530843561651.html

    2. Well obviously everything costs more when it's new. But if you want to solve the world energy problem, donate to researchers in nuclear power. The only reason people aren't demanding more research to be done is because of propaganda. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Mile_Island_accident
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14354

    Dec 12, 2009 9:44 PM GMT
    I think that I am already doing my part to help reduce my global footprint. I don't own a car, I use public transportation during the winter months and I ride my roadbike during the warmer weather months. I recycle all my newspapers, magazines and cardboard. I have replaced almost all my older light bulbs with compact flourescents. What more can I do?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 13, 2009 1:42 AM GMT
    I try to do what I can; public transit when possible, recycling, turn down the thermostat. Even so, I still use way more than my fair share of resources. The number one thing I try to is eat locally--buying local food is so much better than going to places like Wal-Mart, or perhaps the worst (in terms of transit, energy used to grow food, etc) Whole Foods.

    I would be willing to pay more for expenses, and believe that high energy prices, while damaging to the economy, at least got people thinking about their energy use. Even if I was to make drastic changes, I fear that it is not enough.